How to make swords balanced

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-18 00:10:27

The idea with swords is to make outsiders potentially more dangerous than family members. I said "potentially," not "definitely." You should be able to build trust with them over time. I've seen this happen in-game, and it's amazing when it happens.

Outsiders can already not be cursed, so maybe that's enough... but it just doesn't seem dangerous enough. I mean, you can still kill them if they grief, so it's not like they are super-griefing-dangerous.

I love the image of two people from different families working side by side with swords on their hips. Those are two people who overcame odds to find peace and cooperation. (People who had no choice but to cooperate didn't overcome anything... they had no choice.... this is like the difference between two worms who are squirming together in the same jar vs. two free men who really have each other's back's by choice. "I guess you can eat the berries that I grew, I can't stop you anyway," vs., "I could stop you, but I choose not to.")

So, the war sword should work a little differently than the knife. You should be a bit more dangerous with it. You shouldn't be a sitting duck after using it (by the way, I never liked that aspect of knives, but my hands were tied at the time because you had no viable way to build security systems in the game.)

But that doesn't mean one outsider should be able to launch on a crazy, unstoppable killing spree.

One idea is that the sword sticks in the victim, and can't be removed right away (except with some medical supplies), leaving the attacker weaponless, but free to run away.

Other ideas?

But there may be a bigger problem that needs fixing here... I never intended this to be a combat game at all. The acts of violence are supposed to be symbolic. As soon as you decide to commit such an act, it should just happen, with no execution necessary. Almost like a "turn" in a strategy game or something. There should be no way to miss.

This whole business of running around and dodging four people who are trying to get you is obviously nonsense gameplay.

Potjeh · 2019-05-18 00:13:35

jasonrohrer wrote:

You shouldn't be a sitting duck after using it

This whole business of running around and dodging four people who are trying to get you is obviously nonsense gameplay.

Mutually exclusive.

A_person_1234 · 2019-05-18 00:16:46

What about portable medical supplies? I think that would help a lot with countering griefing, and just be helpful in general. It should be easier to heal people. Maybe weapons wouldn't seem so bad if getting hit with one wasn't almost always a death sentence.

futurebird · 2019-05-18 00:17:11

Increase the length of the cool down with each kill? So you get one swift kill, one kinda fast kill, then you are down to the speed of the knife and maybe it resets after like 20 min. to prevent people from lurking and picking people off when they are gathering wood?

This would also mean that if you wanted to raid you'd need group co-ordination which would make it less of just one jerk running around killing everyone.

---

Another idea is to move the killing functions to the sword only so make the knife for crafting and cooking make the sword for killing people and animals. For get the outsider aspect. I know I've said this before, but it just doesn't make sense to me. So, the sword becomes the new knife. I like the way it looks as a game object. So, just removing it isn't ideal to me.

But, I just don't understand the magic that make it only kill people not in my family.

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-18 00:17:39

Not necessarily.

If someone can kill you just by deciding to, with no execution, then there's no way to dodge an attack.

(I hope "execution" is clear here... it's a game design term, describing what you need to do physically in order to carry out what you've decided to do. In Chess, there is no execution. In basketball, it's almost all execution.)

Curses currently have no execution in the game (unless the person is dodging your mouse pointer so you can't find their name). As soon as you decide to curse someone, you do it. There's no way to miss.

Potjeh · 2019-05-18 00:19:41

Well yeah, in that case you *are* a sitting duck. Not just after killing someone, though, but at all times.

lychee · 2019-05-18 00:20:06

jasonrohrer wrote:

This whole business of running around and dodging four people who are trying to get you is obviously nonsense gameplay.

I don't have any immediate solutions, but thank you for recognizing this.

I spent 20 minutes of my last game running back and forth around a raider. Neither of us can stop moving or else you risk getting stabbed, and it gets really dull spending a third of your life chasing one hostile person around a village in circles. If both people know what they're doing, it's an endless stalemate and a game of tag when the pursuing party can never catch up (although the raider can easily stab anyone else in your village who's oblivious and standing still).

Last edited by lychee (2019-05-18 00:21:14)

Buggy · 2019-05-18 00:29:52

I see the cooldown on killing someone with a knife as symbolic of the fact that someone would fight back if they were being murdered. If someone attacks another person with a knife even if that person is unarmed they will fight back. Even if the victim doesn't hurt the attacker back it will still take much more effort than using a knife to cut bread. In the game the process takes the same amount of effort as chasing down a loose horsecart.
In dungeons and dragons even a barbarian can be taken down by enough unarmed kobolds. The sword just needs to be balanced so if enough people want to stop it they can regardless of their tech level.

Last edited by Buggy (2019-05-18 00:30:19)

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-18 00:30:26

Yeah, lychee, that's because this was never designed to be a combat-focused engine. There's no aiming, etc.

It's meant to be very abstract, where if you decide to kill, you kill. But obviously, it isn't working correctly in that regard.

This is highlights why it's important that I don't automatically listen to direct input from players. The immediate feedback was that the sword was broken and needed to be removed.

But if you unpack that a bit, you'll realize that the sword is way less powerful today than the knife was back in Feb 2018. And the knife wasn't obviously broken back then. It was just a part of the game. The fixes that I put in for the knife back then were mostly about giving people a chance to solve and avenge murders (bloody bones, murderer slows down and is stuck with weapon, victim gets stagger time to tell the tale and maybe get healed).

But all those fixes never addressed a core problem, which is that it's too easy to dodge attacks by running around. The war sword brings that issue to the forefront again. It seems like the sword is broken, but really combat itself is broken. The changes to the knife, which helped us solve murders, hid that from us (because the perp slowed down, making them easier to stab).

What about the griefer who steals your food and tools, but just runs around to avoid being killed? You have the exact same problem there, right? Tarr could run into your village, steal your cart, and then run back and steal another one.

So it's not weapons that are the problem, or that they are too powerful. It's actually, strangely, that they aren't powerful enough in the face of someone who is dancing around.

futurebird · 2019-05-18 00:31:52

Buggy wrote:

I see the cooldown on killing someone with a knife as symbolic of the fact that someone would fight back if they were being murdered. If someone attacks another person with a knife even if that person is unarmed they will fight back. Even if the victim doesn't hurt the attacker back it will still take much more effort than using a knife to cut bread. In the game the process takes the same amount of effort as chasing down a loose horsecart.
In dungeons and dragons even a barbarian can be taken down by enough unarmed kobolds. The sword just needs to be balanced so if enough people want to stop it they can regardless of their tech level.

What if, when you are holding a sword you can be hit with ANY tool. So with a hoe, a shovel, an adz, anything. If you are hit 3 times, or 5 times with tools you die.

RodneyC86 · 2019-05-18 00:32:00

What if using a 'war' sword actually requires a family declaring war on another first?? Otherwise limited to knives and bows

Like say for Family A declares war on family B, a guy from family A can go "We declare war on B family" , then a war gong sounds for everyone on both families and everyone can take measures as needed. War starts in one minute

This might give more time for town dwellers to hide/scatter/grab a weapon.
This in turn , allows the attacker to stand a chance if it doesn't consist of only one moron who thinks war is funny

Peace declaration can then be done but both families must agree , at least one member from each side must say , "We declare peace with A/B"

Buggy · 2019-05-18 00:40:04

futurebird wrote:

Buggy wrote:
I see the cooldown on killing someone with a knife as symbolic of the fact that someone would fight back if they were being murdered. If someone attacks another person with a knife even if that person is unarmed they will fight back. Even if the victim doesn't hurt the attacker back it will still take much more effort than using a knife to cut bread. In the game the process takes the same amount of effort as chasing down a loose horsecart.
In dungeons and dragons even a barbarian can be taken down by enough unarmed kobolds. The sword just needs to be balanced so if enough people want to stop it they can regardless of their tech level.
What if, when you are holding a sword you can be hit with ANY tool. So with a hoe, a shovel, an adz, anything. If you are hit 3 times, or 5 times with tools you die.

Hahaha! I like this alot The villagers all running at a hostile with hoes and adzes everyone can join in give the kids a Sauerkraut Stomper!
Basically making it so if someone is being aggressive we have a chance to defend ourselves with what we have. (like the rock in rust Jason )

Last edited by Buggy (2019-05-18 00:41:30)

Tarr · 2019-05-18 00:42:06

The easiest option is just giving the blade a 10 second slowdown with the option to throw your sword if you're actually threatened. See someone alone in the wilderness? You can kill them without threat of someone getting to you before you're long gone. Attack someone in the city? Your ass better learn to dance around tiles for the next ten seconds or toss down your weapons.

Nonlethal ranged weapon to force people to drop their weapon? Think snowball like in the video but doesn't have a time limit so you aren't trying to balance being cold + using the snowball before it melts. A bolas? Player drops the item they're holding and suffer X amount of slowdown or until they untie their feet. Being able to disarm another player allows for issues to be solved without resorting straight to violence. I've disarmed attackers in the past and just taken their weapon away instead of giving a stabbing.

Make sure swords are forged from hot rods instead of cold rods. This means you can't just forge up a blade in the middle of an attack like I did to the town in the video. This also removes stealth blades (you can convert a sword to a rod to put in backpack + hammer and forge a blade on the fly.) I'd say just don't make rods containable but that seems like a worse option that making blades be forged of hot steel.

Not sure how to balance the whole dancing issue off the top of my head but if I think of a way to stop chases I'll make sure to post it.

RodneyC86 · 2019-05-18 00:43:22

futurebird wrote:

What if, when you are holding a sword you can be hit with ANY tool. So with a hoe, a shovel, an adz, anything. If you are hit 3 times, or 5 times with tools you die.

Nice idea, this can go well with my war declaration idea. So if anyone is serious about bringing the heavy guns (swords) they are better be prepared to deal with a mob of angry farmers

Keyin · 2019-05-18 00:53:05

How about having a way to 'auto-attack' with the sword? as soon as the game detects you are on an adjacent tile to a non family member, the sword activates, the game checks to see if the other player is armed.

If both players are armed with a sword/knife, they both drop their weapons OR enter a state of being unable to attack, like after you murder with sword.

This would allow two armed players from family B to chase down killer from family A. As soon as one of the people from family B gets adjacent to A, the sword activates and they enter a state of combat cool down. Now the second member from family B needs to get close before the cool-down goes away in order to kill player A.

futurebird · 2019-05-18 00:55:32

Ideas from brain storm going on at the discord:
-You run faster if you have nothing in your hands
-You're running speed is tied to how full you are
-running with a bloody weapon depletes your hunger 2x faster

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-18 00:55:43

Sword could be heavy, generally. So carrying it in hand, you're always slow...

Jaona · 2019-05-18 00:55:48

I think there should be something to make fighting with a group buffed and nerf solo "crusading".
I'd rather have proper wars with at least 3-6 people going against a town and having a fair fight instead of an assassin going solo and killing everything that's not running away.
In my opinion, 3 guards versus 1 foreign invader should always end quickly with the guards winning, if they're actually competent. Maybe make someone who stabs someone just a tiny bit slower, slow enough that defenders can catch up to the attacker if they keep running long enough, but fast enough that the attacker can possibly get away if they're clever enough?

Or maybe make like a new item: a battle totem that a village can make and that gives the family that put it there a buff to guarding in a certain radius.
Maybe that buff could keep the speed normal for defenders when they stab an enemy? or maybe make the stun shorter.
The totem could be also broken by the enemy, and maybe you couldn't build indestructible structures around it?

Toxic · 2019-05-18 00:57:04

Jason the main thing here is that engine is pretty damn **** for combat. I think it’s time for some RNG right now in a fight the first person to get the right click wins. Fights should be two players engaging in a vigorous fight where blocking and attacking has to be timed correctly. It shouldn’t be two people running around but two people colliding steel on steel. If you really want there to be wars and fighting then you need to focus on combat a bit more.

Shields could add a defensive bonus so when an enemy attacks you there attack has a say 50% chance of hitting, but with a shield they only have a 10% chance. It should also be that 1 hit can’t just outright kill an enemy but it does injure them but they can still fight, and if you get a second hit in they get injured more and bleed out faster, also if an enemy is below a certain health they automatically drop their swords. This would mean that wars can’t be fought by one idiot going into a town and killing everyone. They would require team effort and if you do risk going in and trying to solo a town you will still be fighting one play while 4 other people will be in you and you will be killed really fast because the amount of damage they do.

Now the running problem can be fixed by adding a stamina bar while your holding the sword. If your holding a sword you will slowly start loosing speed and to recover the stamina you have to stand still. Even if you put the sword in your backpack the stamina bar won’t go down anymore but you will still move slowly till it regenerates.

I know these are out of the mind ideas but if your gonna add the sword you need to update your combat mechanics. Also that sword gets stuck in the body ideas is stupid, if that is what happens when you stab then whats the point of sword just use knifes they are better.

Greep · 2019-05-18 01:01:48

Keyin wrote:

How about having a way to 'auto-attack' with the sword? as soon as the game detects you are on an adjacent tile to a non family member, the sword activates, the game checks to see if the other player is armed.
If both players are armed with a sword/knife, they both drop their weapons OR enter a state of being unable to attack, like after you murder with sword.
This would allow two armed players from family B to chase down killer from family A. As soon as one of the people from family B gets adjacent to A, the sword activates and they enter a state of combat cool down. Now the second member from family B needs to get close before the cool-down goes away in order to kill player A.

This is good. To add onto this, why does the player have any input at all if this is what you're intending?

There should be one button that should be for killing completely unrelated to things like dropping the item, and you should pursue and attack the closest person to that target click without any input from that point onwards (except for canceling). If you didn't intend combat to have "execution", but do want it to at least be similuated, this is the way to go about it. It's basically how just about any other game does combat.

Last edited by Greep (2019-05-18 01:03:14)

Spoonwood · 2019-05-18 01:10:44

End swords entirely. They are in no respect about BUILDING a civilization. So, just end them entirely.

lychee · 2019-05-18 01:11:20

jasonrohrer wrote:

What about the griefer who steals your food and tools, but just runs around to avoid being killed? You have the exact same problem there, right? Tarr could run into your village, steal your cart, and then run back and steal another one.

Yup, it is absolutely easier to "steal" than "trade".

So far, I haven't seen too much stealing (it seems like most people raid for the fun of killing), but of the instances that I've heard of, in most situations people don't react to a potential thief until they're basically gone. For instance, right now it's perfectly normal for an outsider to go to a bakery and just eat the food there. Most people don't keep a close eye on what direction a cart is coming -- someone running with a cart of iron has historically only been people returning with from iron hauls -- stealing just isn't even that common yet.

And most of us are usually too engrossed on our current task.

And most people in a village aren't constantly armed.

So if you see a "thief" that's running away, by the time you've gone and picked up a bow, the "thief" is already long gone.

jasonrohrer wrote:

So it's not weapons that are the problem, or that they are too powerful. It's actually, strangely, that they aren't powerful enough in the face of someone who is dancing around.

Personally... I would hesitate before jumping to that conclusion... I don't think weapons are an effective way to handle "thieves" because most people in a village aren't armed.

I think the easiest solution with regards to thieves is to:

1. A player's walking speed relates to the amount that they're carrying. The more they carry, the slower they are (if only by a tiny amount it's hardly noticeable).

2. Implement a way to tackle/punch/restrain people with your bare hands.

I think (2) -- nonlethal subjugation method -- is important long-term in OHOL, because if you want a police force, you need a nonlethal method of subjugating people. Currently, in OHOL, "police" are basically walking executioners. There's no way to "arrest" people or incapacitate them nonlethally, so the only form of justice available is the execution-style kind.

It would be pretty dramatic/controversial if in real life, the police shot/killed every shoplifting kid or delinquent.

------------------

I think that adding a slight slowdown after using swords could successfully patch the current issues with them.

EDIT: If you add a constant global slowdown to carrying swords, you still have to deal with the chasing problem because both parties will be equally slow. You need the slowdown after killing to allow the non-killer to catch up.

-------------------

I am also concerned with the usage of zoom mods like awbz or hetwu.

It's incredibly unfair for some players to use zoom mods during "combat" and other players to not use them and consequently have no visibility. The players who don't use zoom have no warning when an aggressor suddenly appears out of nowhere, and this effect contributes to the negative feeling of being "helpless" during a massacre.

Adding a sound effect like automatic panicked "screaming" (off-screen) whenever a nearby outsider has a sword drawn in their hands and is witnessed by a family member can help alert people that a hostile is nearby.

Last edited by lychee (2019-05-18 01:16:51)

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-18 01:30:54

/WARCRY emote....

I just experimented on a private server, and we found it impossible to kill each other with swords if we were dancing around.

However, the bow worked almost every time. Sword vs Bow, and the bow wins, easily.

I will change the server code a small bit here.

Right now, when you send a KILL message, you send a tile position of the target, along with the ID of the target. The server verifies that the target is really there, or moving near there, before allowing it. Really, it should just check if the target is still in range, wherever they may be moving, even if they're not standing where you clicked anymore.

In the future, I'm thinking about a "run forward and kill" mechanic, where execution is a non-factor. You decide to kill, you speed up toward the target, and there's no way for them to get away.

Also, probably require an /ANGRY emote as a safety feature. Stabbing someone by accident really must be fixed. Put on angry face first with weapon drawn.

The problem with run-and-kill is that there's still a tiny bit of execution with clicking on a moving target client-side.... not sure there.... maybe a bullet time when you're in ANGRY mode that makes it impossible to mis-click. Or time just freezes until you click someone or cancel the action.

BlueDiamondAvatar · 2019-05-18 01:44:30

jasonrohrer wrote:

/WARCRY emote....
I just experimented on a private server, and we found it impossible to kill each other with swords if we were dancing around.
However, the bow worked almost every time. Sword vs Bow, and the bow wins, easily.
I will change the server code a small bit here.
Right now, when you send a KILL message, you send a tile position of the target, along with the ID of the target. The server verifies that the target is really there, or moving near there, before allowing it. Really, it should just check if the target is still in range, wherever they may be moving, even if they're not standing where you clicked anymore.

In the future, I'm thinking about a "run forward and kill" mechanic, where execution is a non-factor. You decide to kill, you speed up toward the target, and there's no way for them to get away.
Also, probably require an /ANGRY emote as a safety feature. Stabbing someone by accident really must be fixed. Put on angry face first with weapon drawn.
The problem with run-and-kill is that there's still a tiny bit of execution with clicking on a moving target client-side.... not sure there.... maybe a bullet time when you're in ANGRY mode that makes it impossible to mis-click. Or time just freezes until you click someone or cancel the action.

Just FYI, the hetuw mode allows you to lock in an emote for as long as you wish to keep it.

So the emote won't make it harder for people to kill with swords.

Tho clearly that's not what you are worried about.

Toxic · 2019-05-18 01:45:51

jasonrohrer wrote:

/WARCRY emote....
I just experimented on a private server, and we found it impossible to kill each other with swords if we were dancing around.
However, the bow worked almost every time. Sword vs Bow, and the bow wins, easily.
I will change the server code a small bit here.
Right now, when you send a KILL message, you send a tile position of the target, along with the ID of the target. The server verifies that the target is really there, or moving near there, before allowing it. Really, it should just check if the target is still in range, wherever they may be moving, even if they're not standing where you clicked anymore.

In the future, I'm thinking about a "run forward and kill" mechanic, where execution is a non-factor. You decide to kill, you speed up toward the target, and there's no way for them to get away.
Also, probably require an /ANGRY emote as a safety feature. Stabbing someone by accident really must be fixed. Put on angry face first with weapon drawn.
The problem with run-and-kill is that there's still a tiny bit of execution with clicking on a moving target client-side.... not sure there.... maybe a bullet time when you're in ANGRY mode that makes it impossible to mis-click. Or time just freezes until you click someone or cancel the action.

I really hope you aren’t gonna make the whole server freeze everytime somebody gets pissed.

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How to make swords balanced

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