If fences are not viable, what does that mean?

Tarr · 2019-05-18 14:03:40

New day, time to add more to the discussion.

As Pein stated, one of the issues with buildings in particular is that people don't tend to think long-term. People will make little buildings and once a stone wall goes up people will only ever destroy them if they're an act against god (people who put north south wall as all walls, people who mix and match walls at random intervals, basically anything that looks incredibly unaesthetic.) I myself am generally willing to break about two pickaxes to fix any aesthetic designs in my buildings but much more than that it's just too costly to fix design mistakes.

Like others have said before, the cost to knockdown a singular wall is much too high. .5 iron per wall adds up quickly when trying to fix a stone building so people will just leave a bad building alone instead of trying to fix it. Walls that haven't gone ancient should either just have a chance to use a pickax charge or get something akin to what fences got. Some sort of two person (or one person if you're quick) job that requires coordination to knock down a wall so players don't just start pickaxing all the walls at all times.

So the starting point of trying to make buildings viable:

-Make cold buildings closer to their warm building counterparts. Hot biome buildings give a net positive by trading a space restriction for a pretty good temperature which can be further increased by bear rugs (probably need more rugs or something less visually noisy in the future though.) Cold biome buildings in their current iteration are a net negative as you trade space for no advantage or little advantage if you have a fire in the room.

-Do something to allow walls to be deconstructed easier as in the current game state it's too expensive to fix the mistakes of a bad city planner. Maybe it shouldn't be as easy as putting up a wall but it definitely shouldn't be .5 iron per wall you need to fix. Unstable stone wall (can be pickaxed freely for X amount of time) or just lowering the overall cost of removing a wall would go a long way in this department.

-Disallowing stakes to be placed on floors. The two items are negatively effected by this, newcomen machines and rail tracks which could just have their recipe changed to make up for this fact. Sure, players can still rip up flooring to grief an area but ripping up floors is already a loud thing and if a building is in a proper area someone is going to notice floors getting ripped up.

-Potential container/wall hybrid? Some people are talking shelves but I sadly think that just leads to a bunch of random storage walls being put up. What about wall type with a window that has a ledge? Half the insulation (so these things can't be used in deserts/jungles) but allows you to set like three or four small items/baskets on them. Cut stones + flat rock = windowed wall. This means a baker can place his goods for retrieval without leaving his bakery and allows for a more useful wall type with a direct cut in efficiency to the buildings heat. Maybe windows require at least two walls beside them or they don't function? Otherwise as my concern before if the buildings temperature bonus isn't good enough something like this just leads to a bunch of windowed walls for storage instead of real buildings.

In regards to rails they just suffer from a lot of problems that would take time to fix but could really make the things shine.

-Trains. This would finally give the players a transport item you can't just lose like cars/planes/horse. I don't know how fast you can make something without it being too jarring for the players to use so speed can be decided at a later time. We have an unfilled niche in the game that trains could fill with relative ease: either trains could be mass transit between areas making it safer to travel in a group from city to city (but being very time consuming and dangerous to put together if someone derails the tracks) or they could fill the niche of mass transport. Being able to load up a bunch of items (we'll just say twelve baskets of something or twelve big items) means players could set up train stations around natural resources to harvest and bring back to town. The only real issue I see with the storage thing is people might just build trains as an upgrade to boxes which seems unsettling.

-Until rails have some sort of code to turn I don't think they'll ever really be viable. By the time you can really afford to use rails (iron wise at least) the town normally has a set shape which means you can't design the whole town around your rail system. Of course, if tracks could turn you could always bypass this by just making the track go around any obstruction in their path but I know they're coded to only go straight which is one of their biggest flaws.

-They're waaaaaaay too costly for what they do in their current state. 1:1 is just way too expensive for tracks to be anything more than a steel bar reserve. Either cut the cost of tracks down to one bar per two tracks or one bar per four tracks. Up the board cost if you want but the iron cost is just way too high for this sort of thing.

-Need to fix the bug where you can stack and delete all the rail tracks. Can't really have something be viable if you can waste all the tracks by stacking them. Since a cross track costs two track sets but returns only one it's possible to just stack tracks on top of each other, adze them up, then rinse and repeat. You lose one track per cycle of this which means its possible to just delete the whole track with relative ease.

BladeWoods wrote:

Or since Feined has a good point, doors could not leak heat for just a few seconds after they're open, then leak heat. Still have to close them, but the heat of the building isn't hurt from opening and closing.

When I was doing testing a spring door only stays open enough for the temperature to uptick once or twice max. This means as long as your doors have springs you will be minimally affected by the door being opened and closed.

Last edited by Tarr (2019-05-18 14:04:07)

futurebird · 2019-05-18 14:19:24

Spring doors should function like walls, and stay open a bit longer.
I like the window idea, but why make it have a temp detriment?
Agree on all the ideas about trains. Really trains should be used to connect long distances and go almost as fast as cars.

To prevent train cars from being used as storage, just add a cheaper storage option at the same time.

Same thing for shelves. Add walls with shelves AND a tool rack for storing tools outside that isn't as expensive as the wall with shelvs.

Tarr · 2019-05-18 14:50:14

Because otherwise players would build whole buildings out of windowed walls for the storage bonus which seems incredibly silly so they have to have some sort of cost balance wise. Either they'd have to be expensive to make or they need a negative drawback to attempt to curb weird player choices.

The only problem with shelves in general is if they're easier to make than boxes you get into a weird situation where people start building one-off walls to replace someone coming over and stealing your box of goods. Also, they probably have to have a different cost than boxes to try to force a difference between the two containers. Maybe shelves cost boards + nails (made from iron at whatever ration sounds good) while only being able to be placed on straight walls.

Tool racks are currently problematic because containers are only coded to understand whether an item fits in it and not what an item is. For example, the game knows a hoe head is category 2 (items that fit in baskets and boxes) and the game knows a completed hoe is category 1 (fits only in boxes) and that a big stone is category 0 (doesn't fit in anything.) As much as I'd like to see something that makes organization better down the line I think we should be approaching this in a way that isn't a complete hassle to Jason but also meets our needs as players to make something viable.

That's why I suggested a wall with a ledge essentially. The game is able to detect when there's something blocking the temperature grid (a wall) and giving the blocking structure insulation + container properties should make it so you can keep heat in/out while also giving you a usable place to put items.

futurebird · 2019-05-18 15:09:21

Then let the tool rack hold any items, but design it to look good with tools I'm thinking of basically a fence attached to a sledge something you can drag around that holds 4 tools on the top and 4 baskets on the bottom.

https://www.reddit.com/r/OneLifeSuggest … ck_please/

Last edited by futurebird (2019-05-18 15:10:32)

Buggy · 2019-05-18 15:22:29

Opening doors is definately a huge part of why enclosed buildings are annoying. Is there a way it could be changed so characters would autopath through doors and fence gates without having to click to open them? (I want my character to open and close the door without me having to click them)

The reason sheep pens never have gates and the reason people get angry and take off all the doors of a building is that it is extra work for basically no reward. I would like to use fence gates for pens but you click once to open it and all the sheep run out or you can build an airlock which requires two clicks to get in and out. Berry corners allow you to just walk in and out without any work on your part.

If gates worked as well as berry corners I would always build gates. If it is possible this would be a huge quality of life improvement.

futurebird · 2019-05-18 15:28:13

Buggy wrote:

Opening doors is definately a huge part of why enclosed buildings are annoying. Is there a way it could be changed so characters would autopath through doors and fence gates without having to click to open them? (I want my character to open and close the door without me having to click them)
The reason sheep pens never have gates and the reason people get angry and take off all the doors of a building is that it is extra work for basically no reward. I would like to use fence gates for pens but you click once to open it and all the sheep run out or you can build an airlock which requires two clicks to get in and out. Berry corners allow you to just walk in and out without any work on your part.
If gates worked as well as berry corners I would always build gates. If it is possible this would be a huge quality of life improvement.

Agree. What if we could add springs to fence gates and path through them with an opening and closing animation? That would make fence sheep pens a nice upgrade from property fences or oven bases. The berry corners are functional but always look messy to me. I would love to have proper pens.

Making it so you had to add a spring to the fence gate to get it to auto-close seems fair resource wise to me.

And I would love it if spring doors didn't require the extra click. I never ever make doors for the buildings I build since they are just too annoying and my main goal in making an enclosed space is to keep people from randomly walking across the work space.

FeignedSanity · 2019-05-18 15:33:20

Holy fucking hell almighty! I think pein might've outdone himself with that post. That dude makes some text walls, but this one is something else. I really don't want to read all that, but I skimmed it a bit and saw my idea posted in there. Could anyone, who took the time to read it, summarize it and tell me if he was saying it was a good idea or bad idea?

futurebird · 2019-05-18 15:37:15

FeignedSanity wrote:

Holy fucking hell almighty! I think pein might've outdone himself with that post. That dude makes some text walls, but this one is something else. I really don't want to read all that, but I skimmed it a bit and saw my idea posted in there. Could anyone, who took the time to read it, summarize it and tell me if he was saying it was a good idea or bad idea?

I was going to say something, but if I accuse anyone else of making text walls that could backfire for me rather quickly. But, I to would like a summary... please?

PS. I'm happy to make a summary of anything I write and try to remember to do so... at least some of the time.

DestinyCall · 2019-05-18 16:19:06

TL;DR for pein's post ....

1.) We need dirt roads as a cheap and easy way to define spaces and enforce "no build/no plant" areas in towns. This would help with organization and long-term planning.

2.) Optimal building shape is a perfect square - least wall building material for most usable interior space.

3.) If you don't have zoom mod, your buildings will be too small. Get zoom mod.

4.) It would be nice if we could upgrade fences to something more lasting/less maintenance. Twig -> adobe -> stone. So you plan your fence using twig and if it is a good fence, people can upgrade it later so it lasts a long time.

5.) Also, some kind of limit on how many property fences one person can create.

6.) Constructing buildings is very costly and time-consuming. Materials are limited and difficult to gather in sufficient quantity. Cheaper buildings or more building resources would be good. Like better sources for butt logs (tree that gives two instead of one) or large rocks (quarry or double-sized rock) or deeper clay deposits.

7.) Make walls useful - shelves, fireplaces, forges, windows, etc.

8.) Warmer buildings in cold biome. Being inside a building should give you perfect temp or nearly perfect anywhere in the room. No fire requirement or one fire heats entire space (central heating).

9.) We need protection against door blocking or door locking. For example - a door mat that is attached to the door to prevent building directly in front of it.

10.) Give buildings meaning by making some activities or technology only work inside a building - like oven or special forge or shelves. Or add weather conditions that won't affect you inside a building. Add more furniture that would look good and allow for RP opportunities inside buildings, like building a cute little house with table, chair and bed.

11.) Pein wants those damn kids to get off his lawn.

12.) Quest system to give people purpose and direction. Offer rewards for people completing certain tasks.

CatX · 2019-05-18 16:34:01

DestinyCall wrote:

11.) Pein wants those damn kids to get off his lawn.

So... a no trespassing sign?

Amon · 2019-05-18 16:36:57

Room size per efficiency could be partically mitigated by having better storage options...
When the fences got first introduced it was a 'it's tight but it's way too cluttered to be cosy, but if we had 1 very amazing storage tile it would be neglegible' and thus make a 2x4 internal tile room cosy.

FeignedSanity · 2019-05-18 16:38:28

DestinyCall wrote:

TL;DR for pein's post ....
9.) We need protection against door blocking or door locking. For example - a door mat that is attached to the door to prevent building directly in front of it.

So he thought my idea was good? Guessing me and pein had the same idea.

Thanks for that, not all heroes wear capes.

Potjeh · 2019-05-18 16:39:11

Speaking of building materials, clay bricks would be nice.

The_Anabaptist · 2019-05-18 16:52:35

Crazy thought here. What if instead of blocking movement, a fence would only trigger slow movement on a person crossing it? People climb fences in real life all the time.

It still would allow for some interesting defensive fortifications and if you didn't like the slowed person coming in, hopefully it will make it easier to target them.

The_Anabaptist

Cox · 2019-05-18 17:07:44

EVERY object in game should be destroyable. This shouldnt be easy, should take time/effort/cooperation of people, but it should be possible.
Maybe some special button which allows you to destroy stuff, but you will stuck in place, you will lost some hunger and everyone can see destroying animation so they can stop you before item is destroyed.

I guess half of you wont agree with me, but we need this, much less blocking situations/ bug abuse will happend in future updates.
And yes this can be used to troll, but can be used for antitroll also (look blocking springs).

mrbah · 2019-05-18 17:23:33

it means space is valuable.
the most valuable ressource there is.
And fences occupy a lot of space.

Tarr · 2019-05-19 02:03:57

In regards to fences and doors they both suffer currently from the ability to as of right now be permanently blocked by newcomens. In this picture we see a newcomen blocking what would be an eastern exit to a village or an east side door. If those adobe walls are placed instead with something like unstable bell tower bases this door/gate will be disabled for use permanently after three hours (slightly too long when compared to a fences timer.) Adobe walls were used in this picture to show where impassible objects are set to disable doors/gates.

In regards to north/south/west doors it's a little simpler. West doors exits/doors only require a single newcomen tower due to the invisible space blocking players from getting into the exit making a western door the weakest possible entrance a town can have. North and south require one less total impassible object to disable the doors/gates but still suffer from being easy to grief.

Newcomens should definitely not have an impassible invisible block until the actual tower is added, this would greatly increase the cost of griefing with them but would still enable it unfortunately.

pein · 2019-05-19 04:41:34

FeignedSanity wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
TL;DR for pein's post ....
9.) We need protection against door blocking or door locking. For example - a door mat that is attached to the door to prevent building directly in front of it.
So he thought my idea was good? Guessing me and pein had the same idea.
Thanks for that, not all heroes wear capes.

had that way back, kind of months ago, i wasn't satisfied with his box breakign solution so that was one of my ideas against the blocking

but i even put up picture , that yo ucan understand without reading
basically the door could be 1x5 in size, the middle would be the door
this would prevent the facing sides beeing blocked, also this would mean a minimum 2x1 size building and 2x2 to have a structure inside, but that's a fair deal

Dodge · 2019-05-19 05:57:40

To avoid blocking entrances, i really think property floors are needed every other type of floors can be removed even ancient stone by just placing a wooden floor on top then removing it.

Maybe there could be a radius around a property gate that allows putting property floors and follow the same rule as the gate, when the gate is detroyed it destroys all the floors.

Or make every impassible object dismountable or destroyable except the ones that take hours to settle and dont make a whole pickaxe used when destroying a stone wall (someone can just build over again stone walls in front of entrance.

Booklat1 · 2019-05-21 02:21:19

Fences are stupid AF because unlike buildings they arent meant to insulate. Warfare and property rights are far less relevant than temperature in this game and buildings also suck at insulating.

let fences die and fix buildings.

Dodge · 2019-05-21 05:42:06

I like fences, would be cool if they were connected to the gate somehow and only decay when the gate is destroyed.

breezeknight · 2019-05-21 10:36:27

i'd say ... again

stop to fixate on griefing

change the gameplay in a positive way - fundamentally

add more options for positive gameplay

reward positive, constructive gameplay

reinforce positive gameplay

stop running after the last griefing option occuring

be proactive
stop being only reactive !!!

if you would - every addition to the game would get a chance to shine & not just be another option for greifers to harrass other players

in a multiplayer is griefing inevitable
but the devs have always options to encourage & reward positive, constructive gameplay
fixing the holes griefers exploit is not making any game better, you can try it, but people are smart & people love sport, so greifing will always be there
in the end it's not a question if griefing is there but if greifing is taking over
& griefing is always taking over if positive, constructive gameplay is not rewarded, often because the devs concentrate not enough to make the game more attractive to players who are not playing games to grief

all my suggestions made are about that - reinforcing positive, constructive gameplay
here my fundamental change suggestion : https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6595

- - -

Last edited by breezeknight (2019-05-21 10:37:33)

futurebird · 2019-05-21 13:44:03

breezeknight wrote:

i'd say ... again
stop to fixate on griefing

change the gameplay in a positive way - fundamentally

add more options for positive gameplay
reward positive, constructive gameplay
reinforce positive gameplay

stop running after the last griefing option occuring
be proactive
stop being only reactive !!!
if you would - every addition to the game would get a chance to shine & not just be another option for greifers to harrass other players
- - -

I think this is an excellent point and perspective and I'm going to incorporate it in to the way I offer suggestions. I hope that Jason and others notice this.

puddleofsick · 2019-05-21 13:44:39

Spoonwood wrote:

Destiny makes another good point. Doors aren't so easy to move through. It would be better if you didn't need to click on the door to open it.

Agreed. Maybe make spring doors the luxury elements that allow ingress and egress without a click.

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Re: If fences are not viable, what does that mean?

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