In the future... when you are critical of the game...

futurebird · 2019-05-18 15:03:22

Can we all try to express our criticism of this game in the future without saying nasty untrue things about Jason as a person. As much as I disagree with some of his ideas I think it's unlikely and silly to think he doesn't want this game to be good. It's unreasonable for us or Jason to expect that every idea he implements will be great work perfectly and make everyone happy.

Frankly, I'm impressed with most of the changes and disappointed with only a handful. The only "game breaking" change was the way the sword worked at first IMO, and Jason was responsive and fixed it. I still think that our towns aren't ready for swords, I don't think they are meeting an urgent need. I think more character models, storage, and some way for men to be fathers are more important.

And I could be wrong about what's important. So, can Jason, so can you. So can we just not call each other whiners, idiot, arrogant, etc. when we don't agree on ideas and focus on talking about WHY we hold the ideas we have about what the game needs so strongly.

Contrary to some of you I don't think that our visions for the game are *that* different. We want it to be fun, worth being invested in emotionally, exciting etc.

Some of the time I think that maybe making changes every week is a bit much. It's bound to make players cranky to deal with so much change all the time. Just as you learn the rules SURPRISE! New Meta! Maybe bi-weekly changes would be less difficult? But, that said this game has existed for more than a year growing and changing at this break-neck pace and we have all kept up and Jason isn't dead of exhaustion so why not keep going? I've never seen a game development process like this in my life and I love it. I love the interplay between what the community does and what Jason creates. I love the crazy things like tutorial towns and pens made of oven bases that players figure out. I love all of the creativity not just in the games content but in what we choose to make of it.

So, lets keep the conversation going, keep being critical, but as we do that remember that we *all* care about this game and so we should try to be supportive of each other even when we don't agree and get angry.

Mushroom · 2019-05-18 15:38:51

I'm sorry for calling people whiners and tryhards.

IRL though, I am used to the very strong language that I use and all these name-callings here on forums are actually pretty soft for me xD
They aren't for everyone as I can clearly see now.

Last edited by Mushroom (2019-05-18 15:39:26)

wondaland · 2019-05-18 15:48:24

I completely agree. No one can deny Jason work bloody hard and some of the comments I've seen directed at him recently are unesseccarily harsh. The sword had/has issues yes but he has made steps towards fixing that exactly like the temperature overhaul. I think in a week or so once people have had time to adapt the hostility will seem quite silly in hindsight.

BlueDiamondAvatar · 2019-05-18 16:44:08

THIS!

100 percent agree futurebird.

There are definitely choices that Jason has made that leave me feeling angry and frustrated. But IF we stay civil and explain how his changes are affecting the game, especially finding ways to document them, Jason has always responded. Maybe not the way we expected or imagined, but he's always responded.

I generally avoid making any personal attacks... it's a bad habit that degrades our ability to give and receive constructive feedback.

Respect for all, Deference to none

Guppy · 2019-05-18 17:06:36

Yes please.
What Dev would want to interact and discuss ideas with a community that just hurls personal insults at them if they dont like an update?
Ive seen it before. Without interaction between dev and playerbase, the game will die.
So please people, behave.

Last edited by Guppy (2019-05-18 17:08:24)

MultiLife · 2019-05-18 19:48:11

Can someone direct me to these attacks? People keep mentioning them. Are they on Steam?

Joseph Stalin · 2019-05-18 19:50:20

I thought bi weekly means twice a week

Amon · 2019-05-18 20:21:58

MultiLife wrote:

Can someone direct me to these attacks? People keep mentioning them. Are they on Steam?

Most everyone has been, to some degree to some extent been a little bit harsh with their wording, it doesen't have to be a direct insult facefront to actualyl cause any level of distress. But some definitely gone overboard lately.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-19 02:47:05

No. People simply cannot recognize their negative traits without people saying something about them. And sometimes recognizing negative traits come as necessary to progress often enough. On top of that, Jason pulls the wool over plenty of people's eyes, and how he acts isn't apparent until people point out some negative things about him.

The biggest problem comes as that Jason doesn't listen to people often enough. I don't mean that he just disagrees with them. He does NOT even hear people or realize how they think and feel differently from him. So what if some names sound harsh? Are they inaccurate? Do you think Jason's arrogance has nothing to do with him refusing to listen to people? To even consider that his game dynamics might not be as rich as he thinks they are? People playing differently than him than he wants is NOT people making choices of their own. It's a problem to him:

jasonrohrer wrote:

I mean, no one would look at this video, as an outsider to the game, and see a village. It's not a village, yet. No walls, no gates, no buildings, etc. And that's a problem. That's one of the many problems with OHOL that I'm trying to fix.

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … d=6516&p=3

That means he wants to tie people down to playstyles, instead of people making their own choices for what they find enjoyable. It's also not about making things more attractive necessarily, as the sword update indicates, Jason will try use the stick and not just the carrot to coerce people to play the game how he thinks it should be played. Do you really think that such a controlling attitude should just go unnoticed? Because if you don't notice when people try to control you, they probably will do so. And if it doesn't get pointed out to others that such attempts at control exist, they probably will get fooled into being controlled.

Should people just not say his arrogant and controlling attitude/speech pattern has anything to do with him not listening and ignore whatever truth or opinion someone else tells him? No really... the guy can't even hear people at times. An example:

jasonrohrer wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
You people telling that such is rich is just indicative of your maniuplative attitude towards your playerbase Jason. We get to decide whether we think it rich or not.
Yes, that's my job.
To design the game, and decide what dynamics I want the game to have.

But I wasn't even talking about him deciding game dynamics. I was talking about his attitude. https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … d=6516&p=3

Another example from the same thread:

jasonrohrer wrote:

Those people were always out there, but you never saw them. Now you see them. And you don't like what you see, I guess...

That was after people repeatedly said that they didn't like how things had changed (because of swords).

People simply can't realize any sort of negative traits without them getting pointed out. And it does hold that Jason's negative traits are hampering his development of the game. He simply can't create a game that people will enjoy without understanding what they enjoy. And he can't understand what they enjoy with his condescending and arrogant behavior that makes it so that he can't listen to what people say and can't take seriously what they enjoy. So, he has to to change his attitude and/or behavior to make a game that people will enjoy. And he can't change his poor behavior/attitude towards his playerbase without understanding that behavior/attitude in the first place.

futurebird wrote:

Frankly, I'm impressed with most of the changes and disappointed with only a handful.

Alright, go back and look through each update and tell me what percentage of the updates made it so that people would be more likely to want to play for the sake of their lineages *when* the update got made. Either that, or please clarify what metric you use to measure whether or not an update is 'good'. I simply am not interested in updates that just 'feel' good to you, but rather updates that fit or do not fit some general plan (hence the 'people will be more likely to play for the sake of their lineage' metric). Otherwise, I don't know how to measure updates, so I would just think your statement subjective and too easy to dismiss as no more than personal opinion.

I want to hasten to add some qualifications: some negative things are useless to say about people. Like the term 'idiot' has no use when applied to someone's intelligence in general, since people can't change their intelligence (or at least that's what I assume). And getting things wrong about other people does happen, and can happen easily. So, sure, restraint needs considered to say negative things intelligently (note I make no pretension about always having said negative things about people intelligently... I don't responsible criticism is easy).

But, if someone has a negative behavioral pattern or attitude THAT consists of something that can change and there can exist uses in that person changing that attitude or behavioral pattern. And it simply won't get changed without recognition of it as negative first by the person. And that probably won't happen without someone else pointing out such a negative behavioral pattern or attitude. So, NO, we simply can't refuse to say any negative things about Jason.

On top of that, it's not exactly honest to always sugarcoat things also, and taking negative speech off the table can lead to sugarcoating. So again, that's not such a good idea.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-05-19 02:50:25)

BladeWoods · 2019-05-19 03:42:06

Spoon, I believe you're the exact person this post was addressed towards. Calling Jason arrogant and manipulative is far from helpful criticism.

RodneyC86 · 2019-05-19 03:44:11

BladeWoods wrote:

Spoon, I believe you're the exact person this post was addressed towards. Calling Jason arrogant and manipulative is far from helpful criticism.

I agree, Jason has responded to my posts. I don't bink he does you anymore. It's okay to be harsh sometimes , but you're doing it every single time now. There comes a point even the most level headed person stop listening to a nagger

Sukallinen · 2019-05-19 09:30:30

Spoonwood wrote:

...

We all know it's the internet-speech (one would not necessarily tell it face-to-face, depending on person and culture). Still, some take it more seriously than others. Also, non-English-natives have hard time, for example in my language we have "please" and "thank you" embedded inside in first/last/middle word in sentence thus we're usually considered "rude" when speaking English, forgetting for example those words.

Edit example: viitsisitkö = "would you please be so kind as to..." so many just say "make..."

Last edited by Sukallinen (2019-05-19 09:33:00)

RodneyC86 · 2019-05-19 09:59:06

Sukallinen wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
...
We all know it's the internet-speech (one would not necessarily tell it face-to-face, depending on person and culture). Still, some take it more seriously than others. Also, non-English-natives have hard time, for example in my language we have "please" and "thank you" embedded inside in first/last/middle word in sentence thus we're usually considered "rude" when speaking English, forgetting for example those words.
Edit example: viitsisitkö = "would you please be so kind as to..." so many just say "make..."

Not going to lie, that sounds like you are implying they have been unkind

wondaland · 2019-05-19 10:31:39

This game is unique in the way Jason interacts with its player base. Few other in development games have had a developer who shares so much of when, where and how they are going to impact/change the game. As a result I believe peoples expectations have shifted and may view Ohol as their own property or maybe put too much value in their personal experience with it. As Jason has said he can't do EVERYTHING we ask but it is ignorant to say he hasn't listened to at least some of what we've said. Swords have been changed with a promise to look into them further. The temperature overhaul was changed several times, same with eve spawns. he added the ability to stack carrots and put seeds in bowls, more clothing. All things we asked for.

Minecraft is a pretty good comparison here, it was available from a very early stage and changed substantially over many years. Lots of those changes upset people to begin with but the players who stayed adapted and came to welcome new additions.

it is simply unfair to expect a perfectly balanced game right now when it has been made abundantly clear that change will be frequent. Just as it is unfair to expect things to stay the same. Would you really want Jason to just lay down his tools right now and say "all done"? No of course not! We need to be paitent. Continue to give feedback in a civil manner, report bugs on github and play/experiment with the game. No amount of whining and name calling is going to make this a perfect game.

At the end of the day Jason is the one making the game and we are the ones testing it. We need to trust he cares enough (which I believe he does) to do what is best for his project and accept that opinions vary and what is a perfect experience for one wont be for another. This can't be 100 games in one this is why we have genres.

So please before posting complaints/criticism (Which we absolutely should do) consider whether or not your approach is constructive. Don't just point out what is wrong suggest how it could be better. These posts I've seen ranting about how terrible Jason is are not constructive they serve no purpose in actually improving the game. If you feel you have tried and Jason is still not taking the game in a direction you agree with, move on, play something new that may better suit your interests. I'm aware many of us have put a substantial amount of time into Ohol and leaving would be hard but it seems there are several people who have reached a point of toxicity that might require a break at least.

Tldr, be nice and trust Jason. If you can't play something else for a while

Amon · 2019-05-19 10:53:07

Spoonwood wrote:

-//-

Spoonwood, do you have any sense of self awareness?

You know, what if you replaced every instance of Jason with yourself and every instance of any update with the matter potatoes/lineage preservation/fertility.

People aren't really happy with how you talk to people about those issues. Should we hold you up to the same standards of criticism you apply to Jason?
No.

And for any instance when people were 'outraged' by an update, the grew to like it or tolerate it, yeah some are hit and miss, but the recent update is absolutely bonkers in terms of brilliance (with only the brokedness of swords being well, broken)

Last edited by Amon (2019-05-19 10:55:20)

Mushroom · 2019-05-19 11:43:55

Spoonwood wrote:

lots of text

Spoonwood, I have to admit that I really respect you. You used to really piss me off with your tone in every discussion but recently I came to a conclusion that you are very solid about your arguments - you don't just complain about things but always try to justify your claims. And I respect that very much.

The issue isn't about your arguments and claims though, they mostly make sense and you point out some good things (not always IMO, but that's why we have these forums in the first place - to discuss things). It's about your attitude and your utmost negative tone about every single thing added to the game. You are exactly the person who this post was adressed to. You tend to straight out insult Jason for his decissions, when you really shouldn't.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-19 14:31:49

BladeWoods wrote:

Spoon, I believe you're the exact person this post was addressed towards. Calling Jason arrogant and manipulative is far from helpful criticism.

You think Jason can change his arrogance and manipulative manners without him knowing about them?

Spoonwood · 2019-05-19 14:38:42

wondaland wrote:

At the end of the day Jason is the one making the game and we are the ones testing it.

NO, we are NOT testing it. We were consumers who bought a product. Customers have the right to complain about things.

wondaland wrote:

These posts I've seen ranting about how terrible Jason is are not constructive they serve no purpose in actually improving the game.

If someone with an arrogant attitude won't listen to other people's behavior, then to make a product more inclined for more people that person has to change their attitude to listen to other people in the first place. That sort of change won't happen without a person first recognizing such an attitude exists. And that won't happen without negative words. So, talking about some negative aspects can be constructive.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-19 15:00:56

Amon wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
-//-
Spoonwood, do you have any sense of self awareness?
You know, what if you replaced every instance of Jason with yourself and every instance of any update with the matter potatoes/lineage preservation/fertility.

First off, I only talked about lineage preservation, because it came as clear that such was an intended goal of game design. I can quote Jason on that, and even without that the longest line tables exist. So, please don't attribute that as something about myself or my play style.

Second, so what about potatoes? When they used up shovel uses there was NOT a single person that showed that the iron usage problem would actually kill off the iron supply, since all the iron from newcomen engine technology (more than 40 iron) could have in princpled got transferred to other things. People were complaining about potatoes because of iron usage basically. I said 'there is no iron problem though'. People didn't respond with anything substantial. They insisted that potatoes were still bad because of an iron problem, even after I had pointed out how plenty of iron existed for potatoes. So, I don't know what you were trying to say here, but I had a strong argument about potatoes and the bunches of people who disagreed had a weak argument without a basis for their position really. You think otherwise? Remember, I had said that the iron used to get a diesel engine up to a useable point could just get transferred to potatoes. Now, both positions don't mean anything, because potatoes don't require shovel charges to get used. But also, no one said good or bad things about potatoes since that shovel change, so I don't think that's what you were talking about.

Amon wrote:

People aren't really happy with how you talk to people about those issues. Should we hold you up to the same standards of criticism you apply to Jason?

I'm not designing the game. I make arguments mostly. So, Jason and I stand in different position. Look, attitudes end up relevant when interacting with people. If my attitude/behavior is causing poor interactions with people, then it's fine to point out my bad attitude/behavior... in so far as you can discern it.

Amon wrote:

And for any instance when people were 'outraged' by an update, the grew to like it or tolerate it, yeah some are hit and miss, but the recent update is absolutely bonkers in terms of brilliance (with only the brokedness of swords being well, broken)

I do NOT think it brilliant for griefers to basically have a system where they can grief and escape with non-deterring punishment as now exists.

Also, it assumed quite a bit to say that people grew to like an update. I didn't like the temeprature overhaul and neither did LostScholar. Neither of us think that the new temperature system makes much sense. Scholar likes how people wear clothes, but that's different than the temperature shock feature which he doesn't like. I've never liked the apocalypse 2.0 update. When the pump overhaul update hit, I would have preferred a bigserver2 wipe. Furthermore, do you think that people never stop playing the game or just stop playing on bigserver2? I logged in to the tutorial area since the sword update on bs2 to check something about springs, and that's it.

Twisted · 2019-05-19 15:04:03

Spoonwood wrote:

BladeWoods wrote:
Spoon, I believe you're the exact person this post was addressed towards. Calling Jason arrogant and manipulative is far from helpful criticism.
You think Jason can change his arrogance and manipulative manners without him knowing about them?

I find the fact that you are calling someone else arrogant and manipulative kinda funny.

To me it feels like you are only on these forums to spread negativity and vitriol. Almost every post you ever made is either a) you complaining for the sake of complaining, or b) insulting Jason and other members of the forums.

You do make a good point every now and then, but even so these forums would be a much nicer place without you.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-19 15:12:54

Mushroom wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
lots of text
Spoonwood, I have to admit that I really respect you. You used to really piss me off with your tone in every discussion but recently I came to a conclusion that you are very solid about your arguments - you don't just complain about things but always try to justify your claims. And I respect that very much.
The issue isn't about your arguments and claims though, they mostly make sense and you point out some good things (not always IMO, but that's why we have these forums in the first place - to discuss things). It's about your attitude and your utmost negative tone about every single thing added to the game. You are exactly the person who this post was adressed to. You tend to straight out insult Jason for his decissions, when you really shouldn't.

I appreciate what you've said Mushroom. It's not every single thing. I did say I thought that the pump overhaul would be good for the game as Jason posted about it, and I think it has. But, that might miss your point.

If you have some instance where I'm not using negative criticism responsibly, I think that's fair to point out to me. As I said in the post, I don't think that calling someone 'stupid' will end up productive. Saying that I have a behavior pattern where I do that much is fine also.

However, that's really tangential to this thread. Please note that the original post got addressed to multiple people:

futurebird wrote:

Can we all ...

The post also mentions people getting called whiners:

futurebird wrote:

So can we just not call each other whiners

I don't think I've used that term.

Additionally, and this is the more important issue, I understood the post as trying to take negative criticism off the table. No, that won't work, because negative attitudes of a person can affect how they interact with other people. And interacting with other people matters to designing quality products for people. Even if I'm wrong about Jason, that still holds in general. Sure, we should not say things we know not to be true about other people. But, unkind words that are untrue might get done mistakenly, so what futurebird asks for I don't find a reasonable request even if it wasn't about trying to take negative criticism off the table. Not if we want honesty and to allow for the possibility of serious improvement.

Amon · 2019-05-19 15:48:18

Twisted wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
BladeWoods wrote:
Spoon, I believe you're the exact person this post was addressed towards. Calling Jason arrogant and manipulative is far from helpful criticism.
You think Jason can change his arrogance and manipulative manners without him knowing about them?

I find the fact that you are calling someone else arrogant and manipulative kinda funny.
To me it feels like you are only on these forums to spread negativity and vitriol. Almost every post you ever made is either a) you complaining for the sake of complaining, or b) insulting Jason and other members of the forums.
You do make a good point every now and then, but even so these forums would be a much nicer place without you.

I suppose some people never learn, that's why I just skip over his comments if I see one.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-19 16:02:20

Amon wrote:

I suppose some people never learn, that's why I just skip over his comments if I see one.

I'm not so sure Twisted was saying that I should learn. I mean he did say I had some points here and there. To me it seems that he wanted to emphasize how I'm not so nice. I don't think being nice and having productive comments always coincide, so not saying nice things comes as the price I pay, sometimes if not often, for trying to say some things that I believe can be productive in the end. Being nice doesn't always get things done. Being nice isn't always productive.

Anyways, have a nice day.

Twisted · 2019-05-19 16:48:05

Spoonwood wrote:

Amon wrote:
I suppose some people never learn, that's why I just skip over his comments if I see one.
I'm not so sure Twisted was saying that I should learn. I mean he did say I had some points here and there. To me it seems that he wanted to emphasize how I'm not so nice. I don't think being nice and having productive comments always coincide, so not saying nice things comes as the price I pay, sometimes if not often, for trying to say some things that I believe can be productive in the end. Being nice doesn't always get things done. Being nice isn't always productive.
Anyways, have a nice day.

I skip your posts as well, they rarely add anything of value to the conversation.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-19 20:04:14

Twisted wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
Amon wrote:
I suppose some people never learn, that's why I just skip over his comments if I see one.
I'm not so sure Twisted was saying that I should learn. I mean he did say I had some points here and there. To me it seems that he wanted to emphasize how I'm not so nice. I don't think being nice and having productive comments always coincide, so not saying nice things comes as the price I pay, sometimes if not often, for trying to say some things that I believe can be productive in the end. Being nice doesn't always get things done. Being nice isn't always productive.
Anyways, have a nice day.

I skip your posts as well, they rarely add anything of value to the conversation.

Skipping posts shows that you don't know if the posts you skipped add or do not add anything to the conversation.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-05-18 15:03:22

In the future... when you are critical of the game...

#2 2019-05-18 15:38:51

Re: In the future... when you are critical of the game...

#3 2019-05-18 15:48:24

Re: In the future... when you are critical of the game...

#4 2019-05-18 16:44:08

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#5 2019-05-18 17:06:36

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#6 2019-05-18 19:48:11

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#7 2019-05-18 19:50:20

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#8 2019-05-18 20:21:58

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#10 2019-05-19 03:42:06

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#11 2019-05-19 03:44:11

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#12 2019-05-19 09:30:30

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#15 2019-05-19 10:53:07

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#16 2019-05-19 11:43:55

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#20 2019-05-19 15:04:03

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#21 2019-05-19 15:12:54

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#22 2019-05-19 15:48:18

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