Murder, Somewhat Quanitified

lychee · 2019-05-21 15:45:49

DestinyCall wrote:

It is a "survival game" with dangerous wildlife, resource collecting, and hunger mechanics, but the primary threat is other players. And the main strategy is to get strong enough to steal from anyone who is too weak to defend what they have gathered. Raiding solo players or small groups is much more lucrative than gathering everything yourself. No defense is perfect and your base is always vulnerable to attack, so it is better to play offensively, rather than defensively.
Anyone who wants to build something like civilization in Rust will be deeply disappointed, because the meta is "might makes right" and "shoot first". If you encounter another player and you are not on discord with them, you are better off putting a bullet in their head before they put one in your back. Even if they are a naked new player asking for help.
Things are not that bad in OHOL yet. But the war sword is pushing the meta in that direction.

Right. Sometimes I feel like Jason is running a social experiment.

If I understand Jason correctly, Jason doesn’t actually want constant genocide/murderfest. Rather, he wants to see this hypothetical moral ideal of players coming together and getting along with outsiders despite the obvious risks. He *wants* the good guys to beat the bad guys, and somehow it feels like he’s confident that the good side of humanity will triumph despite all the swords and languages and violent temptations.

Tbh I’m not confident at all about that.

I don’t think it’s a given that the “good guys” will prevail, and this social experiment of OHOL might utterly fail and only show off the worst of us — kind of like what you get in Rust and other pvp ganking games.

And I think part of the reason an experiment like this might fail is that I don’t believe that the world is an inherently peaceful/“good” place. Obviously, a person’s worldview reflects their personal philosohies, but history has shown us time upon time again the ugliest parts of human nature — whether it is genocide, nazi/fascism, lynching/racism, gang violence, Somalia, Sudan, Boko Haram, and all the more frightening parts of the world that makes one realize how fragile and delicate of a bubble that we live in, if you grew up somewhere safe.

And then there’s the question of what kind of game Jason wants OHOL to be.

I really dislike the “because it’s realisitic!” argument for why war/violence should be in OHOL. Rape, slavery, and other forms of abuse are also realistic, but I doubt anyone would like to see that added to the game (except for the most disgusting griefers) solely on the basis that “it’s realistic”.

DestinyCall · 2019-05-21 16:18:36

lychee wrote:

And I think part of the reason an experiment like this might fail is that I don’t believe that the world is an inherently peaceful/“good” place. Obviously, a person’s worldview reflects their personal philosohies, but history has shown us time upon time again the ugliest parts of human nature — whether it is genocide, nazi/fascism, lynching/racism, gang violence, Somalia, Sudan, Boko Haram, and all the more frightening parts of the world that makes one realize how fragile and delicate of a bubble that we live in, if you grew up somewhere safe.

Another reason it might fail is because OHOL is not just a social experiment. It is also a game. If playing the game in the "right" way means you lose the game, people will stop playing the game that way and try something else. If being a good person gets you killed, there will be fewer and fewer good people. In a way, this is how it works in the real world, too. But being a game that people play voluntarily means that people will decide if the experiences they have while playing are worth the emotional pain or moral discomfort they feel as a result. Personally, I do not like playing games that make me feel like a worse peraon after I finish playing, even if I "won" the game. That is one of the reasons why I stopped playing Rust, even though I was able to find a decent private server with limited PvP and a better community compared with the toxic waste that inhabits the public servers. At the end of the day, playing that game was adding to the stress in my life, not reducing it.

lychee wrote:

And then there’s the question of what kind of game Jason wants OHOL to be.
I really dislike the “because it’s realisitic!” argument for why war/violence should be in OHOL. Rape, slavery, and other forms of abuse are also realistic, but I doubt anyone would like to see that added to the game (except for the most disgusting griefers) solely on the basis that “it’s realistic”.

Agreed. Realism has a place in games, especially survival games. It allows people to solve problems intuitively by applying real world knowledge to in-game problems. So if you need food, you look for berry plants and if you want a fire, you gather wood. But there are times when making a game more "realistic" doesn't improve the game. For example, manually opening and closing doors is common in the real world, but an annoying hastle in a game. When adding features, it is always important to consider not just if it is a realistic representation of the real wotld, but also if it is something players will want to do in a game. Very few games include functioning bathrooms, but lots of games let you eat food. Where does the food go? It is a mystery.

JonySky · 2019-05-21 16:32:58

I do not know if I've missed something, but Jason has already nerfed the war swords, right? ... What's the problem now?
The game has changed and I particularly like it a lot more now than before ...
the game is more dynamic and avoids repeating the same lives over and over again ...

I know it is annoying to die at the hands of someone who kills randomly for no reason, but thanks to this new mechanics I have had incredible lives
I have only died 2 times with a sword, since the implementation of the war swords ... the rest have been very good lives and stories, some lives, with griefers included

I think the biggest problem in OHOL today is the endless trend to / die
this is what most demoralizes the players and what really kills families ....

It is very annoying to have babies that do not take 1 second to execute / die ...

Last edited by JonySky (2019-05-21 16:36:18)

puddleofsick · 2019-05-21 16:47:08

breezeknight wrote:

OHOL as it is now, especially after the last couple of updates (fences, skin color, war sword) attracts only a certain quality of players
the retention of players takes place only among those who are mildly interested in building a little, don't mind lack of tools for organization, can put up with cumbersome crafting but are highly interested in killings (griefing, mod usage, genocide, for fun, revenge, roleplay) & oc don't mind being killed now & then
every other player is gone
- - -

I used to play 5 to 6 lives a day. I have played 0 lives since swords. And I'm crafting a negative review on steam today so that people don't get fooled by the friendly trailer on steam. It might as well be two minutes of baby slaughter accompanied by death metal.

DestinyCall · 2019-05-21 16:48:10

The problem is that even after the nerf, the war sword does its job too well. Jason made the sword so we would fear outsiders more than our own family. And it worked. In combination with the new Eve spawning mechanics and closer towns, OHOL is starting to evolve a new meta that encourages killing all outsiders, especially Eves, because the risk of letting them in your village outweighs any possible benefit to you or your family.

Personally, I think the game would be much better if the war sword was removed. Or changed to kill everyone equally, since it is a freaking sword. Right now, it is an unrealistic gimmicky weapon that encourages genocide and racial purification. It is still very broken, even after the fixes.

futurebird · 2019-05-21 16:48:22

The problem is the new "kill Eve's on sight" meta. I don't even know if it's justified but even if it is justified from a game perspective not giving people a chance because "they might have evil kids" is an ugly dynamic.

So, is the related "Kill all other families in multi- family cities" though that one is more rare, possibly because people realize it would be a two-way blood bath that would often kill BOTH families.

There are lots of towns with families existing in peace. This meta is talked about a bit more than it is played out.

But the cause griefers exploiting being eve to avoid curses isn't the right or most rich starting point for intra-city and family conflict.

So, to me the problem isn't the sword as it is now on it's own, but the combination of close spawns, no cursing non- family member AND the sword.

Really the sword isn't even the main issue anymore. The Eves are using bows.

It isn't really rational or good gameplay for eves to attack cities if they want their kids to survive. Trying to integrate or striking out on your own makes more sense.

We are allowing irrational players who don't care about the goals of the game to dictate the style of play, and that impacts good Eves, and makes village life oppressive and paranoid.

Psykout · 2019-05-21 16:52:07

You don't need knives/bows/swords to do damage anymore. This meta of fencing things off because of the constant fear of opposition has caused way more harm than good. I was just in a town that was surrounded by fences and couple gates. Took me a long time to find the owners to get added. There was one hole in the fence, but at the northern end. To go south of town you had to walk around the whole thing, easily 50-75 tiles. I needed to cut down two rocks to start a newcomen pump on the deep well that there was a fast road to, the next one over from the main town well. There was no gas, and the knowledge and resources to get a pumpjack up was very low, so the diesel well in town was worthless. All that was needed was to tap the deep well into newcomen to buy time, which I was happy to do, even though it was a pain in the ass with the fences.

That was until I realized that this.

The newcomen was blocked by the fence. Granted the fence was decaying, but my will to struggle past it was shot down. I just closed down the client and walked away from my computer in disgust. Every single part of this game has become a struggle, full of opposition and frustration. The worst parts of human nature have been captured, and the best beaten out by the former. Paranoia, fear, hate, discrimination, violence... Its too much.

futurebird · 2019-05-21 16:57:21

Agree. The fences probably aren't a good solution or even helpful since there is no easy way to add large groups of people to a gate so they end up being traps even when used with the best intentions.

I've been trying to give fences a go and not just reject them. But I've yet to see them do anything but cause problems.

Even if you could add whole families at once I still don't see how you are going to have all the gates closed at the right time-- and if an friendly Eve comes by what are you supposed to do just stare at her over the fence and not come out? I'm not going to do that.

The swords are mostly fine now. It's the "let's spawn people you can't curse near you AND let's have and an easy way for anyone for force themselves to spawn that way (using /die)"

it's catering to griefers.

And the vast majority of players are not griefers and I don't think griefers are a good "threat" since their goal is to ruin your enjoyment of the game. The whole concept of trying to employ griefers as if they were some kind of new wild animal threat ignores the fact the whatever will make people quit in disgust is that griefers will do.

JonySky · 2019-05-21 17:04:06

the problem is not Jason's or the swords ... the problem is of those who kill any eve they visualize, or of not trusting a foreigner ... or of improperly using property fences ... as in any game, if it is not done well ... the game is lost

Spoonwood · 2019-05-21 17:07:45

lychee wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
It is a "survival game" with dangerous wildlife, resource collecting, and hunger mechanics, but the primary threat is other players. And the main strategy is to get strong enough to steal from anyone who is too weak to defend what they have gathered. Raiding solo players or small groups is much more lucrative than gathering everything yourself. No defense is perfect and your base is always vulnerable to attack, so it is better to play offensively, rather than defensively.
Anyone who wants to build something like civilization in Rust will be deeply disappointed, because the meta is "might makes right" and "shoot first". If you encounter another player and you are not on discord with them, you are better off putting a bullet in their head before they put one in your back. Even if they are a naked new player asking for help.
Things are not that bad in OHOL yet. But the war sword is pushing the meta in that direction.
Right. Sometimes I feel like Jason is running a social experiment.
If I understand Jason correctly, Jason doesn’t actually want constant genocide/murderfest. Rather, he wants to see this hypothetical moral ideal of players coming together and getting along with outsiders despite the obvious risks. He *wants* the good guys to beat the bad guys, and somehow it feels like he’s confident that the good side of humanity will triumph despite all the swords and languages and violent temptations.
Tbh I’m not confident at all about that.
I don’t think it’s a given that the “good guys” will prevail, and this social experiment of OHOL might utterly fail and only show off the worst of us — kind of like what you get in Rust and other pvp ganking games.
And I think part of the reason an experiment like this might fail is that I don’t believe that the world is an inherently peaceful/“good” place. Obviously, a person’s worldview reflects their personal philosohies, but history has shown us time upon time again the ugliest parts of human nature — whether it is genocide, nazi/fascism, lynching/racism, gang violence, Somalia, Sudan, Boko Haram, and all the more frightening parts of the world that makes one realize how fragile and delicate of a bubble that we live in, if you grew up somewhere safe.
And then there’s the question of what kind of game Jason wants OHOL to be.
I really dislike the “because it’s realisitic!” argument for why war/violence should be in OHOL. Rape, slavery, and other forms of abuse are also realistic, but I doubt anyone would like to see that added to the game (except for the most disgusting griefers) solely on the basis that “it’s realistic”.

You make a lot of good points. I'd like to add something here. Evil I'm inclined to believe in triumph, because the good guys, and the intelligent good guys, at least enough of them, might just feel inclined to leave the game and play something else or do something else with their lives. I mean, who wants to fight barbarians at the gate? No, that's not rich dynamics. I mean I'm sure soldiers and policeman sometimes don't exactly enjoy fighting criminal elements in society (alright, sometimes they do), but people have praised them and that has motivated sometime. And conscription has existed. Sure, there's the danger of having societal functions like that, but I think also, soldiers and policeman often would rather do something else. In real life, someone has to do those jobs. But, in games someone can just stop playing that game. So, why wouldn't they go play Candy Crush instead of OHOL if OHOL is just going to be a stressful war?

Spoonwood · 2019-05-21 17:15:49

JonySky wrote:

the problem is not Jason's or the swords ... the problem is of those who kill any eve they visualize, or of not trusting a foreigner ... or of improperly using property fences ... as in any game, if it is not done well ... the game is lost

People are doing this, because griefers are likely to be Eves since they can't cursed to Donkey Town any longer, and since Eves can almost surely find a town now without any trouble.

I'm not saying that from my experience, that's just my read of other people. People not having a fear of strangers doesn't seem likely with griefers likely to be Eve and griefing not having consequences that they care about.

Psykout · 2019-05-21 18:52:49

Spoonwood wrote:

JonySky wrote:
the problem is not Jason's or the swords ... the problem is of those who kill any eve they visualize, or of not trusting a foreigner ... or of improperly using property fences ... as in any game, if it is not done well ... the game is lost
People are doing this, because griefers are likely to be Eves since they can't cursed to Donkey Town any longer, and since Eves can almost surely find a town now without any trouble.
I'm not saying that from my experience, that's just my read of other people. People not having a fear of strangers doesn't seem likely with griefers likely to be Eve and griefing not having consequences that they care about.

I would agree that its not directly anyone's fault, just that the tools we have been given, and how many are using those tools. It has been made very easy for those wishing to cause harm to due so, as we have noted. Yes it does come down to the players, but there is only so much the minority, those of us experiencing a lack of satisfaction, can do to change that behavior, hence speaking out and being vocal about it. Obviously and honestly my perspective is skewed and biased, but this feeling has gained a lot of momentum in a fairly short amount of time. This didn't start to feel like as big of problem when fences were put it, just when an object thats only and sole purpose was to harm outsiders was added along with clustering everyone together, and I do not believe that is coincidence. As population of active players has gone down since surges like Steam release, negative interactions has remained and even slightly climbed at the same rate, despite the playerbase settling back to a normal amount of active players. I don't like staring at the icon on my desktop pondering if its worth it not to double click it.

futurebird · 2019-05-21 19:06:19

Psykout wrote:

I don't like staring at the icon on my desktop pondering if its worth it not to double click it.

I feel much the same.

Tarr · 2019-05-21 22:31:08

The problem ends up being players want to use an update when it comes out which leads to people stabbing each other all the time. Add in things such as uncursable players, Eves that can constantly respawn around you, a language barrier to overcome, and just a level of paranoia mixed in for added effect and suddenly people are extra stab happy.

Players eventually have to learn to defend themselves either way. Ever since the sword update came out bell towns have basically just been death traps for anyone unfortunate enough to follow the bells call. I personally clear these towns out (even after the sword nerf) whenever they try something because honestly it's beyond dickish to call random Eves into a place for the sole purpose of killing them. Ringing a bell should be a sign of a place being a great place to play or an area that could use help, not some sort of blood orgy for people wanting to attack unarmed players.

Basically a combination of sword + constantly respawning troll Eves have made the game worse overall, while stuff like the languge change added a cool fun mechanic into the mix that grew from being annoying to a good update.

Swords still probably overpowered, snowballs are probably the best (weapon) overall with knife and bow basically only being useful for killing in family trolls.

Léonard · 2019-05-22 10:34:37

Spoonwood wrote:

People are doing this, because griefers are likely to be Eves since they can't cursed to Donkey Town any longer, and since Eves can almost surely find a town now without any trouble.
I'm not saying that from my experience, that's just my read of other people. People not having a fear of strangers doesn't seem likely with griefers likely to be Eve and griefing not having consequences that they care about.

I was just digging through some of my older posts and found some very relevant quotes on the way:

jasonrohrer wrote:

A would-be murderer or thief does not actually fear for their life in the game, because respawning is cheap enough that it really doesn't matter too much. Yes, they can't come right back to the same situation, but they can keep playing.... That is in part why curses were added,

Mmmmmmhhhhh... :thinking:

It's even worse now because Eves probably do have a chance at coming right back to the same situation since they're forced to spawn near towns..

Also:

Léonard wrote:

That's also why twins are so controversial. Have you heard of mothers killing their twin babies? Yeah, that happens and is absolutely allowed.
People killing babies due to the fear of strangers happens all the time when twins are born.

Does this ring any bells?
Yup... This issue is basically twins on steroids..

Except this time it's literally presented to us as a "rich dynamic".

Last edited by Léonard (2019-05-22 10:36:01)

breezeknight · 2019-05-22 10:50:43

the players can only play what's there

if Jason doesn't give players options & tools to play peacefully, to build peace, to prefer constructivity over destructivity, then they just choose the easiest way & VIOLENCE is always the easiest way !

if a game has violence included, players will choose violence, which will attract more violent players while constructive players will leave
especially in a gaming landscape FILLED with all sorts of violent games, players are TRAINED to kill in games, all games that have kiling not included are titled "casual" meantime, casual as in "not a real game"

players who now are still here, discussing those matters are THE LAST HANDFUL of peaceloving players of OHOL

the decay update has thinned out the community alot, the apocalypse has thinned it out further, add to that the constant nagging on constructive gameplay with complex technology additions like car, kerosine pump, radio ..., lack of overview option so one needs to use a mod for that, mods empowering griefers, garbage everywhere, lack of organization tools, no support of constructivity (blessing system) but only acknowledgment of destructivity (curse system), babies & kids killable but not able to even curse, no freedom to heal oneself but made artificially forced into dependence on others to be healed, lineage only viewable outside the game, photos viewable outside the game, murderers included in the lineage, Eves reduced to powerless baby machines (& no, violent Eves on a genocide spree with a war sword is horror, not feminism), still no baby sling but still females reduced to random & unwilling baby spouting machines, fences ... & ... so ... on ...

it's Jason !!!
Jason makes the game
either he makes it on purpose or he makes it by mistake or he makes it as an experiment or he just doesn't FUCKING CARE that his game about LOL "civilization & parenting" LOL turned into a violent farce

i am since ever complaining about the violence in OHOL
i made countless suggestions to foster constructive gameplay
BECAUSE
that's the only way to improve the game to be playable for players who play it not to kill somebody but to actually build & craft useful everyday tools, to communicate, to cooperate with each other

but Jason mentions Rust as his admired game he now models OHOL along, yeah, LOL

let's say then "good luck"
or maybe rather "good riddance"

- - -

here my last suggestion, probably even literally
my last suggestion to foster constructivity !!!
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6595

but i suppose the community is meantime as impaired as doesn't even know how to support each other io to get everybody to a more enjoyable gameplay, so just let's shut down each other, that will surely improve the game, right ?

do i sound embittered & frustrated ?
you bet i am with OHOL, lol
but - WHO CARES

- - -

miskas · 2019-05-22 14:06:42

I think its time to implement Interracial Marriages....

People kill anyone who has no relation to them because they can't trust, them or their babies.

Also, with Marriages Males become more useful and can bring peace among families. Even renew the family line by taking a girl from another village.
Give us incentives to communicate and co-operate with one another or the only way we will be coming together will be with swords.

https://www.reddit.com/r/OneLifeSuggest … terracial/?

Last edited by miskas (2019-05-22 14:08:37)

futurebird · 2019-05-22 14:09:32

miskas wrote:

I think its time to implement Interracial Marriages....

https://www.reddit.com/r/OneLifeSuggest … terracial/?

Right now people who aren't in your family have mostly negatives about them. But, if you can only marry people who aren't of the same last name there is a reason to *want* to be around other people and it'd balance the game.

Psykout · 2019-05-22 21:48:32

futurebird wrote:

miskas wrote:
I think its time to implement Interracial Marriages....

https://www.reddit.com/r/OneLifeSuggest … terracial/?
Right now people who aren't in your family have mostly negatives about them. But, if you can only marry people who aren't of the same last name there is a reason to *want* to be around other people and it'd balance the game.

Inb4 "marry me or I kill you"

wondible · 2019-05-27 22:18:11

Good news: murder rate seems to have stopped rising.
Bad news: it's still pretty high.

As to the question of kills by eves: not surprising given the lack of efficient weapons in the wilderness:

Additionally, I had a life that was recorded as killed-by on the lineage server, but as hunger in the lifelogs. The lifelogs are under-reporting murder by an unknown factor.

futurebird · 2019-05-27 23:45:45

Lets see if the new changes to /die and Eve spawning help with that last graph. No more "choosing" to be Eve just to go kill people...

RodneyC86 · 2019-05-28 00:04:19

lychee wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
It is a "survival game" with dangerous wildlife, resource collecting, and hunger mechanics, but the primary threat is other players. And the main strategy is to get strong enough to steal from anyone who is too weak to defend what they have gathered. Raiding solo players or small groups is much more lucrative than gathering everything yourself. No defense is perfect and your base is always vulnerable to attack, so it is better to play offensively, rather than defensively.
Anyone who wants to build something like civilization in Rust will be deeply disappointed, because the meta is "might makes right" and "shoot first". If you encounter another player and you are not on discord with them, you are better off putting a bullet in their head before they put one in your back. Even if they are a naked new player asking for help.
Things are not that bad in OHOL yet. But the war sword is pushing the meta in that direction.
Right. Sometimes I feel like Jason is running a social experiment.
If I understand Jason correctly, Jason doesn’t actually want constant genocide/murderfest. Rather, he wants to see this hypothetical moral ideal of players coming together and getting along with outsiders despite the obvious risks. He *wants* the good guys to beat the bad guys, and somehow it feels like he’s confident that the good side of humanity will triumph despite all the swords and languages and violent temptations.
Tbh I’m not confident at all about that.
I don’t think it’s a given that the “good guys” will prevail, and this social experiment of OHOL might utterly fail and only show off the worst of us — kind of like what you get in Rust and other pvp ganking games.
And I think part of the reason an experiment like this might fail is that I don’t believe that the world is an inherently peaceful/“good” place. Obviously, a person’s worldview reflects their personal philosohies, but history has shown us time upon time again the ugliest parts of human nature — whether it is genocide, nazi/fascism, lynching/racism, gang violence, Somalia, Sudan, Boko Haram, and all the more frightening parts of the world that makes one realize how fragile and delicate of a bubble that we live in, if you grew up somewhere safe.
And then there’s the question of what kind of game Jason wants OHOL to be.
I really dislike the “because it’s realisitic!” argument for why war/violence should be in OHOL. Rape, slavery, and other forms of abuse are also realistic, but I doubt anyone would like to see that added to the game (except for the most disgusting griefers) solely on the basis that “it’s realistic”.

Yet in spite of slavery, rape, wars and murder our world has turned out for the better (?) Overall? It still sucks in many parts but we have done it.

My only concern in game is that a life is just not valuable enough even in the best of towns. And honestly, there is no fix to this.

DestinyCall · 2019-05-28 00:17:19

futurebird wrote:

Lets see if the new changes to /die and Eve spawning help with that last graph. No more "choosing" to be Eve just to go kill people...

Has this change been implemented? If so, I think something is wrong because there are a TON of murderous Eves running around. I just had three lives in a row where our town was repeatedly attacked by killer Eves. I couldn't even live long enough to fight back and my connection is too laggy to allow me to run away once I've been death-locked. Really sucks.

breezeknight · 2019-05-28 01:52:34

"death-locked" another genius addition to a game claiming to be about civilization & parenting

- - -

Tarr · 2019-05-28 01:56:07

DestinyCall wrote:

futurebird wrote:
Lets see if the new changes to /die and Eve spawning help with that last graph. No more "choosing" to be Eve just to go kill people...

Has this change been implemented? If so, I think something is wrong because there are a TON of murderous Eves running around. I just had three lives in a row where our town was repeatedly attacked by killer Eves. I couldn't even live long enough to fight back and my connection is too laggy to allow me to run away once I've been death-locked. Really sucks.

They're not live yet. The only way to really play Eve when the update goes live is to basically start killing one person per life or having your mother/whoever kill you as a baby. Rinse and repeat until banned from all lineages and then you'll be able to actually play as Eve. They'll still be able to grief villages if they want (I doubt griefers will go through this much effort) and they still won't have a real early game to gain access to.

We've essentially killed early game except for maybe around server reset (even though it's likely you'll be near a town) or if you're lucky enough to spawn around a griefer in donkey town. Never imagined I'd say this but I sort of miss early game now and again.

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