Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

jasonrohrer · 2019-06-04 20:38:54

People have been clamoring for fatherhood for a long time. But as you've seen, the only elder men around are your uncles.

One big problem: in an isolated village, where do these fathers come from? Won't they all be funcles? Or even worse (or better??), frothers?

Yes, Futurebird talked about migrating between villages to find marriage partners... but what if this doesn't happen? Or even if it will happen eventually, how do you bootstrap before that?

Players are waiting to join the game, and pregnancy just has to happen no matter what.

Also, even stranger than the funcle is the "double brother." If you and your brother have the same father and mother, you are full brothers. If you have different fathers and the same mother, you are half brothers.

But what if you are your brother's father? You must be more than full brothers a that point, right? Maybe double brothers? Or one-and-a-half brothers?

Stylingirl · 2019-06-04 20:42:02

Technically, conceiving with your second cousin is as likely to give your child birth defects as much as a stranger's genes.

lychee · 2019-06-04 20:44:36

A fertility boost to fatherhood — even in the absence of fathers/marriages, girls still have some baseline fertility.

lychee · 2019-06-04 20:53:28

This needs to be discussed/debated for balance, but:

Orphans: Every child that’s born has some rate of losing their parent’s last name. Maybe mutate the last name to something that looks similar but is different (e.g. McAllister => McAndrews). Would help introduce last name heterogeneity to homogenous towns, if the incest is that much of a concern.

Initialize orphans with the same language/race, but consider them no relation.

Needs balance discussions because swords/eve griefing similarities.

There must be some benefit to heterogenous towns that outweigh the risk of outsider griefing (perhaps marriage is the benefit?)

Last edited by lychee (2019-06-04 21:05:36)

Tarr · 2019-06-04 20:58:16

lychee wrote:

A fertility boost to fatherhood — even in the absence of fathers/marriages, girls still have some baseline fertility.

33% based off whether a woman is married/child has a father.
33% based on yum up to a cap of +10 where you get the full .33
33% based on the temperature of the mother.
1% based on whether you have 15+ years of game development.

1/2 of those can maxed by a player who actually wants to have babies while the other two require commitment either to game development or another person.

futurebird · 2019-06-04 21:00:15

I thought that marriage would give a fertility boost if you didn't have the same last names. Otherwise it just adds "married to Name_Link" to the family tree. So ways to make new last names other than being Eve would be nice and might take some pressure off of that area...

I often wish I could pick a name and it's part of the reason I long to be Eve... I want to see the Bird family take over the world!

lychee · 2019-06-04 21:04:05

futurebird wrote:

I thought that marriage would give a fertility boost if you didn't have the same last names. Otherwise it just adds "married to Name_Link" to the family tree. So ways to make new last names other than being Eve would be nice and might take some pressure off of that area...
I often wish I could pick a name and it's part of the reason I long to be Eve... I want to see the Bird family take over the world!

I remember you had a *married couples can pick a new last name* suggestion.

Tbh I think the problem with that one is that it’d become too easy to rename yourself if it was tied to something like marriages. A majority of lineages would probably die off solely because players rename themselves out of the line.

futurebird · 2019-06-04 21:11:09

You are probably right Lychee. Maybe you need to BOTH MOVE x blocks away from your home for the marriage? I mean people could run out of town and come back, but what if you had some kind of formalization to splinter camps and after both spending enough time far from your birth place you could pick (or would get I like the notion of just mixing names together automatically MURRAY + POE = PORRAY) a new name of your own ...

Valareos · 2019-06-04 21:13:02

I suppose the question becomes how is it decided now where a child goes? Is it a random chance? Is there some sort of algorithm to use?

Changing fertility rates, IMO, wont be very useful, and you don't want to make it comparatively harder for an eve to spawn children.

And any change must be minimal so as not to require much reworking.

I propose this:

During the age when a child can be picked up, a male can pick up the child and say "I am your Father" (regardless if the kids name is Luke or not )

This sets the child as son or daughter of the male, and in the family tree, it links that child as the male's descendant. It becomes another way for a family line to be continued, even if all females die, a male making it to another city can become the father of another child, and the line continues.

So the following comes into play.

1: No need to track spouses in family tree. Just linking a child to two different parents.
2: Males trace their genealogy back through the male line, females through the female line. Descendants for both work as it does now.
3: Let unnamed babies choose their own first and last name when they no longer can be picked up. (More for males who unnamed to create their own line)
4: Give all babies who has at least 1 living parent a bonus to food use. If you got a parent, your food level decreases a bit slower
5: A male can not claim fathership of a child that is 3 or less degrees of separation. No great-grandparents, grandparents, parents, children, grand children, great-grandchildren, Uncle, Aunt, great-uncle, great-aunt, or Cousins. All other relations are OK.
6: Male claiming fathership must be same fertile age as required by mothers.

This system will allow fathers, give a reason to become a father, not affect mother fertility or game play at all, and minimizes work needed on code to make it functional.

lychee · 2019-06-04 21:17:11

Tarr wrote:

lychee wrote:
A fertility boost to fatherhood — even in the absence of fathers/marriages, girls still have some baseline fertility.
33% based off whether a woman is married/child has a father.
33% based on yum up to a cap of +10 where you get the full .33
33% based on the temperature of the mother.
1% based on whether you have 15+ years of game development.
1/2 of those can maxed by a player who actually wants to have babies while the other two require commitment either to game development or another person.

I’m generally in favor of this kind of thing, but to play devil’s advocate — fertility mechanics are hard!!

Tweaking fertility mechanics is a relative zero-sum operation. By giving one woman more kids, you take away kids from another mom. OHOL works that way because the amount of players at any given time is roughly constant.

I’m cautious about balance changes that favor big towns because in a purely mathematical world, the big families have an exponential spawning advantage over isolated eves or pseudo-eves. Pushing changes that favors big towns decreases the viability of eve/pseudo-eve play and encourages the development of mega cities.

Lineage bans definitely help eves (though not pseudo-eves), but the more exogenous mechanics Jason adds to balance this spawning distribution actually nerfs the impact of fertility boosts.

—————

What if spawning was tier based?

1. First balance small/big town/lineage spawns
2. Then spawn to any parent that is married
3. Only spawn to unmarried moms if married moms are unavailable

lychee · 2019-06-04 21:21:23

Oh I like Valareos’s thought process.

Interesting approach!

Needs some balance to ensure there isn’t just that one guy lurking by the fire claiming all the BB’s, but it’s a cool idea.

Valareos · 2019-06-04 21:24:01

lychee wrote:

Oh I like Valareos’s thought process.
Interesting approach!
Needs some balance to ensure there isn’t just that one guy lurking by the fire claiming all the BB’s, but it’s a cool idea.

Easy enough to add a timer. claim recharge at 5 min or whatever, to ensure you only get 1, and its age 5 before getting another

lychee · 2019-06-04 21:28:22

Valareos wrote:

lychee wrote:
Oh I like Valareos’s thought process.
Interesting approach!
Needs some balance to ensure there isn’t just that one guy lurking by the fire claiming all the BB’s, but it’s a cool idea.
Easy enough to add a timer. claim recharge at 5 min or whatever, to ensure you only get 1, and its age 5 before getting another

It would be amusing if moms could assign fatherhood too.

“Adam Pu is your dad.” XD

Keyin · 2019-06-04 21:39:03

jasonrohrer wrote:

People have been clamoring for fatherhood for a long time. But as you've seen, the only elder men around are your uncles.
One big problem: in an isolated village, where do these fathers come from? Won't they all be funcles? Or even worse (or better??), frothers?
Yes, Futurebird talked about migrating between villages to find marriage partners... but what if this doesn't happen? Or even if it will happen eventually, how do you bootstrap before that?

Inbreeding will be pretty high with only 100 people regardless. Especially since the gender ratio in many towns is like 20%men and 80% women. Polygamy would need to be a thing if you want everyone to reproduce.

But about inbreeding...I've been 'married' to my first cousin plenty of times in game, no big deal. Many non-western cultures actively encourage first cousin marriage to keep property in the family. It only becomes a problem if some sort of genes are added.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Players are waiting to join the game, and pregnancy just has to happen no matter what.

I am not sure what you mean by this, but I think what your saying is that with a system where sexual reproduction is required rather than asexual reproduction, a lot fewer babies will be born because there will be single women?

If that is the case, lines that fail to have kids will quickly die out and the problem will solve itself in one generation.

What to do with the overflow of players? If the # of baby slots gets too low, rather than make a new Eve like now, how about adding an Adam? If Adam is added and could reproduce, I think it could be a lot of fun to come to the genetic rescue of the village...

As for the relation tags which could be an issue, you could just create a hierarchy so that certain relationships show. So, if someone is my brother/dad, it would make sense to simply show them as my dad. I actually have a cousin who is also my uncle, but I have always though of him as my cousin because his siblings are just my cousins.

Last edited by Keyin (2019-06-04 21:47:52)

Valareos · 2019-06-04 21:40:31

lychee wrote:

It would be amusing if moms could assign fatherhood too.
“Adam Pu is your dad.” XD

William Clayton wrote:

I did not have relations with that woman!

Mike Johnson wrote:

Billy Pu is not my lover, she's just a girl who thinks I am the one. But that kid is not my son

Dodge · 2019-06-04 22:12:19

Adding Adam to the game and making fertility based on meeting people from other lineages would give a big reason for travel, building roads, individual properties and general interactions between lineages and villages.

It's part of what motivates private property with small families irl instead of the tribal big village system there is in the game atm.

Marriage could be added sure for exclusivity, but just being near someone from another gender and lineage would be enough and it would give a purpose for males in the game.

So when people from different lineage and gender are close together, fertile females would have the "pregnant belly" maybe and allow for new players to spawn.

And if no woman is pregnant on server then the players just couldn't spawn.

Maybe Adam's could spawn near fertile woman's if no woman is pregnant on server.

The mouflon horn could be used to find others more easily on a shorter distance.

pein · 2019-06-04 22:21:12

well mixed families die within 40 minutes

i seen a fenced town with one exit and people took over the town in 40 min, same name different color
also most of this wars are started by age 8 kids
now either you kil lthe griefer or the other family but someone will die
then again got back and the family died out in other 40 min

so either make names unique but same name should be same family or tribe

also even if you don't want to code complex rights and privileges, this will be an issue
there cant be leaders without followers
and either is by vote or force or luck there is no point on leaders if people don't do what you ask for and no consequences of that

i generally believe in murphys law, if shit can happen it will happen
it's the internet, you cant expect people to act by a code or have morals

you seen doors never been closed and springs somewhat fixes it

people gave up on fences and mixed families eventually kill each other so the ones who find it interesting and ever curse for it are the oens who didn't yet seen their family forced out or murdered

so if we got same name then it should be officially same family

and as you see lot of people would like to Eve to name the family

also griefers target woman first

so might be a good idea to gave up on names as male and choose a nickname
as long as it's not directly under same parent and you limit the age difference to like 10, minimum age to like 14, it wouldnt be too much trouble accepting some level of incest

now i cant see how fathers fit in under a parent but near a wife so this could be just roleplay and not serious gameplay element
the kids would see their moms partner and that it, maybe see grandpas but not above it
with the 60 min limit you can rarely be great grandfather 14+14+14 is already 42 so 4 minutes difference to be a great grandmother
if you limit males to marry at 18 they will never see their great grandkids so there is not much point on tracking back , and obviously female side will be tracked anyway
same can be archieved by raising fertile age to 15, so 4x15 is 60

maybe the marriage cant be broken, so people wont waste time to marry every male in the family
but also wont result in weird relationships
this would limit eve camps from marriage, until someone has 2 girls and if there is agedifference limit, well,the eves first sons get eft out of it

one added bonus to fathers would be guaranteed gender
so if someone gets married, a girl then a boy will born then again a girl and a boy then maybe random like now
like if you as eve have 2 kids then one will have only daughters other sons
or if one already has a living son then the other has a daughter until one is raised to age 3
if they pass the 10 minute mark, then they don't count anymore

this is a series of limitations
female between 15 and 40
male between 18 and 44? (10 min to a 39 year old woman would be 49 but maybe after 35 you can only have 5 year difference)
minimum different mother
maximum 10 year older husband, no younger husbands?
this would simplify the relationships
also no baby wife kidnapping

ofc also would make marriages more rare, and some people would quit cause they cant find a partner

cross family marriages would also provide defence against swords or there is no gameplay reason to mix up

then lastly maybe instead of families, we could have tribes, teams or some sort of groups
pseudo eves who want other name should need a male to change name, and would be the males choice to give some buff to males
and they could renounce the name once if they leave the city and never turn back (force field?)

this would make that some people would run away in pairs but only after 2 gen minimum so they got aunts at least

Last edited by pein (2019-06-04 22:21:43)

Spoonwood · 2019-06-04 22:28:42

Keyin wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
Players are waiting to join the game, and pregnancy just has to happen no matter what.
I am not sure what you mean by this ....

The core concept of the game is that you care about your offspring (Jason said this in a thread about war). The game isn't being played without offspring then. So, pregnancy has to happen no matter what and I think Jason means as soon as possible, otherwise the game doesn't exist yet... it's just a woman running around looking at nature, which isn't an interpersonal game where any parenting (good or bad) occurs.

futurebird · 2019-06-04 22:30:28

Valareos wrote:

1: No need to track spouses in family tree. Just linking a child to two different parents.

But that's the part I like most...

lychee · 2019-06-04 22:35:19

futurebird wrote:

Valareos wrote:
1: No need to track spouses in family tree. Just linking a child to two different parents.
But that's the part I like most...

It’s a little hard to track if there’s a divorce or remarriage or mechanic anything like that.

Tarr · 2019-06-04 22:41:06

lychee wrote:

futurebird wrote:
Valareos wrote:
1: No need to track spouses in family tree. Just linking a child to two different parents.
But that's the part I like most...
It’s a little hard to track if there’s a divorce or remarriage or mechanic anything like that.

We haven't reinvented the lawyer so at this point it really is until death do us part.

lychee · 2019-06-04 22:43:31

Tarr wrote:

lychee wrote:
futurebird wrote:
But that's the part I like most...
It’s a little hard to track if there’s a divorce or remarriage or mechanic anything like that.
We haven't reinvented the lawyer so at this point it really is until death do us part.

XD

Spoonwood · 2019-06-04 23:20:26

jasonrohrer wrote:

One big problem: in an isolated village, where do these fathers come from?

I suppose that if the next player were an Adam raised by hominids feeding him bananas or other fruits, he would need 14 years to reach maturation, and thus there exist only 12 years left where another player might find the Eve for a marriage in which she could become a parent, and the core concept of a game of caring for your offsrping might not get fulfilled in any respect. But what if the Adam got raised in accelerated manner by the hominids... with say the concept of the Adam getting raised in something like a borg maturation chamber (except Adam isn't a borg), and reaching the age of 14 in a single year. That might work as a bootstrap. But it does make offspring less likely to happen.

Dodge · 2019-06-05 04:54:49

Spoonwood wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
One big problem: in an isolated village, where do these fathers come from?
I suppose that if the next player were an Adam raised by hominids feeding him bananas or other fruits, he would need 14 years to reach maturation, and thus there exist only 12 years left where another player might find the Eve for a marriage in which she could become a parent, and the core concept of a game of caring for your offsrping might not get fulfilled in any respect. But what if the Adam got raised in accelerated manner by the hominids... with say the concept of the Adam getting raised in something like a borg maturation chamber (except Adam isn't a borg), and reaching the age of 14 in a single year. That might work as a bootstrap. But it does make offspring less likely to happen.

You do know that Eve's dont spawn as babies and spawn fertile or close to fertile right?

So why would it be different for Adam?

Adam could spawn if no woman on server is pregnant and players are getting reborn but cant be born since no pregnant woman.

Then it could be their goal to find fertile females to try to save lineages.

Spoonwood · 2019-06-05 11:21:54

Dodge wrote:

You do know that Eve's dont spawn as babies and spawn fertile or close to fertile right?
So why would it be different for Adam?
Adam could spawn if no woman on server is pregnant and players are getting reborn but cant be born since no pregnant woman.
Then it could be their goal to find fertile females to try to save lineages.

It wouldn't be different for Adam than for Eve, but it would be fewer people with the potential of playing one hour.

Jason talked about bootstrapping, and I read that an apocalypse happened. I think asking 'how will lineages start?' more interesting than thinking about saving villages.

Eves currently have children thrust upon them, so there's no need for an incentive for them to start a lineage, since it's part of game mechanics. But what will be the incentive for Adam for marriage? Or do the marriages between an Adam and an Eve happen by magic by them walking close to each other? How does the family name get tracked matrilineally, patrilineally or some other system? If there's only one family name, how does it get chosen, and why?

If lineage is tracked matrilineally still, does there exist enough motivation for the Adam (or other man) to become a *responsible* parent? I mean, it would be her family, he's just someone who made her family happen, so why does he care? If lineage is tracked patrilineally, does there exist enough motivation for women to care for their children... or would players care less since it wouldn't be their family name (in the real world... I think there's more physical bonding between women and their offspring... so women care for their children without a family name... but how would you have a system which has the same sort of effects?).

If lineage gets tracked both parents, how does the family name work? Here's an idea:

Both the Adam and the Eve can name their own self. The family name is a combination of these two names. But, that only works for one generation. The next marriage would need another family name. That would lead to many different lines of descent. I suppose that's a possibility. Another one is a family and subfamily(ies) name system. The Eve and the Adam have one family name that all their descendants have. Any latter marriages create another family name which all their descendants have. This way the original line of descent is tracked by the Eve's name, while there's still motivation for children, since there's sub-family lines that happen also.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-06-04 20:38:54

Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

#2 2019-06-04 20:42:02

Re: Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

#3 2019-06-04 20:44:36

Re: Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

#4 2019-06-04 20:53:28

Re: Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

#5 2019-06-04 20:58:16

Re: Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

#6 2019-06-04 21:00:15

Re: Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

#7 2019-06-04 21:04:05

Re: Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

#8 2019-06-04 21:11:09

Re: Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

#9 2019-06-04 21:13:02

Re: Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

#10 2019-06-04 21:17:11

Re: Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

#11 2019-06-04 21:21:23

Re: Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

#12 2019-06-04 21:24:01

Re: Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

#13 2019-06-04 21:28:22

Re: Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

#14 2019-06-04 21:39:03

Re: Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

#15 2019-06-04 21:40:31

Re: Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

#16 2019-06-04 22:12:19

Re: Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

#17 2019-06-04 22:21:12

Re: Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

#18 2019-06-04 22:28:42

Re: Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

#19 2019-06-04 22:30:28

Re: Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

#20 2019-06-04 22:35:19

Re: Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

#21 2019-06-04 22:41:06

Re: Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

#22 2019-06-04 22:43:31

Re: Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

#23 2019-06-04 23:20:26

Re: Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

#24 2019-06-05 04:54:49

Re: Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

#25 2019-06-05 11:21:54

Re: Problem with Funcles, Duncles, and Frothers

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