Update: Precious Life

jasonrohrer · 2019-06-08 19:40:48

Life has been cheap in the game for a very long time. It always bugged me. Death is inevitably going to be somewhat meaningless, but it was a bit too meaningless. Yes, in any game where there's reincarnation, players are going to leverage that to achieve various goals. However, there should still be some trade-offs and difficult choices involved. Infinite and free is boring, because it makes you not need to decide.

The original concept for this game was actually One Dollar One Hour One Life, and that would have dealt with this problem quite squarely, while also committing commercial suicide in the process. I've also toyed with only allowing one life per player per hour, but that also seems too extreme.

There's a wide spectrum between those extreme options and life being completely free/infinite, though. It needs to have some cost, so you feel the pain of death a bit more, and so you at least have a more interesting choice to make when you choose death on purpose in order to get born into a different life. The solution is to only give you one life per hour, but let the lives build up over time, so that you have a buffer.

These numbers will be adjusted in the future, but currently, you start with 24 lives, and you earn one new life every hour whenever you dip below 12 lives. You earn lives this way day or night, whether you are playing or not. Most people will build back up to a full bank of 12 lives every night while they're sleeping. You start with 24 to give brand new players some cushion as they learn the game.

It's amazing how many of the long-term problems in the game are in some way related to life being too cheap. From griefing, to baby suicide, to too many Eves. We've tried a lot of laser-focused solutions to these specific problems, but the over-arching problem of cheap life remained.

To accompany this change, the lineage/area ban on /DIE is back, mother birth cooldown has been restored to the way it used to be, and the Eve spiral is back, replacing the newer Eve grid placement. The spiral now works along with the ancient map culling, resetting back to the center of the map once it has been reclaimed by nature, so Eves will come closer together periodically, instead of just once a week when the servers restart. Finally, roads, along with stone walls, are not reclaimed by nature, so you can build long-term routes across the map, even as civilizations die out along those routes. This should help distant villages continue to find each other over time.

And snowballs no longer make you drop what you are holding.

Stormyzabeast · 2019-06-08 19:43:42

O....m....g....

Spoonwood · 2019-06-08 20:01:14

Jason, you talked about doing a choice screen earlier this week:

jasonrohrer wrote:

For new players, the game should behave identically to how it currently behaves. For veteran players, a birth choice option should open up.
I think the most obvious way to handle this is opening up a birth choice screen after a player triggers /DIE.

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … d=6832&p=2

You later used 'if' when talking about it in the same thread:

jasonrohrer wrote:

If I have a birth choice screen for advanced players, I might as well put an Eve button in there and just let the chips fall where they may. There are only so many non-Eve babies to go around, and competition will be extremely stiff, but so be it, right?
To eliminate griefing by Eves, I'm going to have to move each new Eve out into a completely green pasture (area that has been reclaimed, as close as possible to civilization).

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … d=6832&p=3

Is the choice screen something that you plan on doing later but haven't had the time to get around to?

jasonrohrer wrote:

Infinite and free is boring, because it makes you not need to decide.

Jason, my gaming experience is VERY different. As I've said before, I'm a veteran of civ III (and I can provide a link proving it as many of my games are still on record on the internet). Almost everyone would consider that a war game (it's much more complex actually, but I fought numerous wars in it). In that game, I used a specially designed utility program to find maps suited towards initial conditions. Infinite and free was NOT boring. It was actually the opposite, because the diversity of possibilities made things more interesting and it was interesting to see if I could use a strong map to its fullest potential.

Edit: I've also played a fair of Rimworld more recently. In that game you can randomly choose your pawns. You can do that so much until you find a pawn that matches the characteristics you want. I've done that DOZENS of times. Or you can use a 'prepare carefully' mod. In that case having a large amount of choices for free was NOT boring either. It enabled having more control over the game, and I found it more fun that way.

Additionally, what you say is incorrect and well, laughable. Everything within the scope of OHOL is finite. And even in the case of an infinite set of things, choices can still exist.

I do like the changes with respect to the Eve spiral and roads. How the resetting Eve spiral works down the road is something we'll have to see.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-06-08 20:28:04)

DaveRoll · 2019-06-08 21:35:40

FINALLY, literally played today before this update and was thinking “Jason should really solve this over baby dying issue” AND LO AND BEHOLD, Jason updates addressing the exact same issue! THANK YOU!

NiGB0 · 2019-06-08 22:38:15

....
In my opinion you need to remove this update....

The last update was great, there weren't a lot of eves, so the lineages were longer than before the update.
If u /died u could reborn in the same place, so this was a solution to baby bones because u will born there always.

Now you changed all to a live count and the /die has the same function who has before the update 61.
The only thing i like of this update is the change of fuction of the snow balls.

I paid $20 for a game that i need to wait to play?

Last edited by NiGB0 (2019-06-09 19:32:20)

Valareos · 2019-06-08 22:48:30

I will say that with this update, I have noticed a remarkable decrease in /die babies. I think when our members run the numbers for this next month compared to a test month before the update, we will see what effect it truly has.

Lotus · 2019-06-08 23:02:24

What happens when you run out of lives?

RodneyC86 · 2019-06-08 23:03:16

Wow, this could change a lot of things. I was one of the players thinking the real issue was always life being too cheap.

I think this won't change how most normal players play. I have never went through more than 10 lives in an entire game session of 3 hours.

There could be a bad mom grief to deliberately waste loves but I hope villages have enough nursemaids to deal with that

Valareos · 2019-06-08 23:03:56

Lives recharge 1 life per hour. So if you run out, you just got to wait an hour. Most people will recharge back to the 12 max lives while they sleep, or work or such

MistressZues · 2019-06-08 23:05:26

NiGB0 wrote:

....
In my opinion you need to remove this update....

Not at all this is a great concept

Twisted · 2019-06-08 23:06:37

RodneyC86 wrote:

I think this won't change how most normal players play. I have never went through more than 10 lives in an entire game session of 3 hours.

Yeah, I feel like that's kind of the point. This won't really affect 95% of players at all, the only ones who it does affect are the ones that just endlessly spam /die. I think it's great although it's still a bit early to tell.

RodneyC86 · 2019-06-08 23:13:10

Can these lives be made server specific though? Just a thought

Valareos · 2019-06-08 23:19:53

There was some numbers ran... https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6825

In a single day, suicide babies represented 55% of all deaths.

The top 20 /die users represented 40% of all baby suicide deaths

3.8 baby suicides per min.

Bob 101 · 2019-06-08 23:58:06

So suiciding to become Eve is a thing again now....

Guess the playstyle wouldn't be sustainable life wise, Burning multiple lives to get one possible hour as Eve.

Last edited by Bob 101 (2019-06-09 00:06:11)

kittykatthegreat · 2019-06-09 00:24:45

Yeah i was excited about the choice screen and then it some how turned into this...

jasonrohrer · 2019-06-09 00:58:54

Yes, you can burn lives to get to be Eve....

BUT... you have to burn lives for that privilege. So there's a choice to make there.

Before, there was no choice to make. You could brute-force your way to Eve without sacrificing anything to get there.

And yes, there was talk about a choice screen, but that was mostly because I was at my wits end, and essentially throwing my hands in the air.

Sometimes it takes a long time for the right idea to surface.

Thanks to denriguez for pushing me to consider limiting the number of lives in some way, and then to Twisted for riffing on that by suggesting life tokens that get earned in some way.

We've toyed with the idea of limiting lives in the past, but the right combination of elements never came together in a way that made sense.

Earning tokens over time is really the perfect solution, because it's completely agnostic to what's going on in the game. It doesn't encourage you to reach old age, or any other particular behavior. It treats everyone equally, really. A life is a life.

Spoonwood · 2019-06-09 02:38:59

Really, you think you found the perfect solution Jason? You're wrong. The problem with /die before lay in the baby bones. You made it clear that you could do a choice screen. You just told people they can burn lives to become Eve. Now both people who want to be Eve and the people who would rather play in towns will be unhappy. The Eve people will be unhappy, because they have to use their time to become Eve, or might get locked out in the process. You could have made them happy with a choice screen. The people in towns will be unhappy, because they'll have more baby bones than necessary. You could have made them happy with a choice screen. Perfect solutions don't lead to both groups having an unhappy situation. Perfect solutions lead to both groups having a happy situation.

It's also clear that your ego about your vision comes as what gets in the way of the better solution.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-06-09 02:39:38)

Valareos · 2019-06-09 02:55:02

Spoonwood, I think that people like me who play every life SHOULD have a better chance to be eve, not to lose out /die spammers that make playing a female frustrating. If it was about Jason's Ego, he would make the game as he sees fit and not make ANY changes based on feedback.

You have never seen a truly egotistical designer yet I think, otherwise you would not be making such a statement. Do you know of anything going behind the scenes, beyond the forum or discord? No. Do you know honestly how long Jason has been trying to find a good solution? No. As Jason has stated himself, the idea for this ultimately came from PLAYERS who saw a problem.

Now, as much as I think a choice screen is a good solution as well, it would not, on its own, stop the /die griefing, and the HUGELY unfair Eve preference to those who use /die all the time.

Yes, being able to do a /die many times in a row to become Eve is unfair to
1: Mothers who have to deal with constant interruption
2: Towns having to deal with the bone clutter
3: People who want to be Eve by playing the game as it is meant to be played

Limiting the /die with life tokens becomes an inconvenience to
1: People who use /die to force an Eve every single life they play
2: Griefers who wait till old enough to hold a bow and arrow, and kill the town

Potential issues are
1: Griefing by Mothers by killing their offspring and any offspring they can grab and run off with (had a personal experience with it)
2: New Players using up their lives quickly (which is why new players get 24 to start as a buffer

Jason already said he will keep an eye on things and adjust number of lives as needed. How about letting it run and see how things work out before being an arse. Jason also rolled back many unpopular changes when putting this one in, as they were not as needed anymore

By the way, I have already noticed an improvement in my game play with this change.

Spoonwood · 2019-06-09 04:33:04

Valareos wrote:

Spoonwood, I think that people like me who play every life SHOULD have a better chance to be eve, not to lose out /die spammers that make playing a female frustrating.

Then you should advocate for your own interest, by advocating for a choice screen. You don't do yourself any favor by advocating for anything less.

Valareos wrote:

If it was about Jason's Ego, he would make the game as he sees fit and not make ANY changes based on feedback.

No. Jason also wants to appear to keep people happy, to appear to listen to people well, and to make money.

Valareos wrote:

You have never seen a truly egotistical designer yet I think, otherwise you would not be making such a statement.

Pretty sure I have. Here's the biggest piece of evidence: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6724

Valareos wrote:

Do you know of anything going behind the scenes, beyond the forum or discord?

I do know of things beyond the forum or discord. Particularly OHOL suggestions. The top voted solution there to the /die problem was different. It's here: https://www.reddit.com/r/OneLifeSuggest … die_issue/

Valareos wrote:

Yes, being able to do a /die many times in a row to become Eve is unfair to
1: Mothers who have to deal with constant interruption
2: Towns having to deal with the bone clutter
3: People who want to be Eve by playing the game as it is meant to be played

That will still remain to some extent with the new system.

Valareos wrote:

Limiting the /die with life tokens becomes an inconvenience to
1: People who use /die to force an Eve every single life they play
2: Griefers who wait till old enough to hold a bow and arrow, and kill the town

It will still cause the same problem for mothers.

Valareos wrote:

How about letting it run and see how things work out before being an arse.

First off, I'm being honest with Jason. Being an arse would be being a 'yes man' or being dishonest. Secondly, it's already known that better solutions exist. Third, this sort of system can lead to all sorts of new issues. Fourth, you think that this might not be the same sort of contract that people signed up for when they bought the game?

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-06-09 04:33:29)

denriguez · 2019-06-09 04:36:28

If this game is about anything, it's about dying to yourself and playing a role in something larger. I don't play every day, but I play every hand I'm dealt. I only /die when my mom runs off in the wilderness, or is clearly an asshole. Whenever I roll an Eve, I get really excited about the chance to start a brand new lineage, so I take it really seriously. I haven't Eve'd in months because I've been losing out to /die spammers.

All a choice screen would do is further cheapen life. When every life can be Eve, Eve has no significance. Every Eve would be just another player with a vanity project, someone refusing to die to themselves, insistent on their preferred play style. It'd be a game of 1000 Eves and no children. Sounds like a blast. ?

I'm looking forward to the prospect of playing an unexpected Eve life now, and for the reduced inconvenience and bone clutter. This is probably one of the more important updates in terms of how players will approach the game, tbh.

Valareos · 2019-06-09 04:40:41

Spoonwood, I read back on my post, and realized it sounded quite hostile.

Sorry about that. I try to pride myself in not doing that, but I was out of line in some of my comments in that post

Guppy · 2019-06-09 08:02:23

NiGB0 wrote:

....
In my opinion you need to remove this update....

We know that Jason reads these comments, so why not, instead of just "update bad", you post "update bad, because (list of problems you encounter with this update).

This way, he can take those into consideration when/if he tweaks numbers and such

kategriss · 2019-06-09 08:52:22

I created an account just for this update. I liked many other updates but this one ! This one motivated me enough to create an account just to say how much I like the life limiting concept of getting rid of those /die babies and occasional runners. Before this update I used /die 3-5 times per game to land in a specific town, be a specific sex, or something else. Now I'm trying to be more mindful of my /die use and my experiences are now truly different Thank you

Last edited by kategriss (2019-06-09 11:40:49)

InSpace · 2019-06-09 09:30:32

I played a life, and it was so different, no /die babies, everyone doing hard work, no skeletons in town, it was great

Potjeh · 2019-06-09 11:20:07

Great update (y)

One Hour One Life Forums

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Update: Precious Life

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