Why not Patreon?

BerrypickerAF · 2019-06-09 19:35:02

It seems Patreon would be a way better platform to support/sell this game than Steam. It's often been made clear that we didn't buy a game, but a concept or a ticket to get to watch Jason do his thing.
Seems more like a Patreon thing rather than Steam. It allows for continuous support and pricing tiers, and if people don't like changes made to the game they can cancel their subscription. If we're getting a service, why not sell it like one?

mrbah · 2019-06-09 22:30:18

BerrypickerAF wrote:

if people don't like changes made to the game they can cancel their subscription.

That sounds like a negative.

DestinyCall · 2019-06-09 23:08:23

mrbah wrote:

BerrypickerAF wrote:
if people don't like changes made to the game they can cancel their subscription.
That sounds like a negative.

I think his point is that unhappy people can't complain that they were sold a defective product if they are purchasing a service.

mrbah · 2019-06-09 23:31:49

DestinyCall wrote:

mrbah wrote:
BerrypickerAF wrote:
if people don't like changes made to the game they can cancel their subscription.
That sounds like a negative.

I think his point is that unhappy people can't complain that they were sold a defective product if they are purchasing a service.

if you bought on steam, steam offers refunds under certain conditions.

Léonard · 2019-06-10 00:45:36

mrbah wrote:

if you bought on steam, steam offers refunds under certain conditions.

Only if you've played less than 2 hours.

BerrypickerAF · 2019-06-10 07:19:08

mrbah wrote:

if you bought on steam, steam offers refunds under certain conditions.

It is still extremely limited and you can not refund a game more than once. If you refund through Jason directly, I doubt he'd be too keen on doing it multiple times either.

A service-based or subscription based system not only allows the player to opt out of whichever state the game currently is at, it also allows for easy re-entry. Think of MMO's and how people buy a sub again when a new big update comes out, or they just want to go back again for nostalgia. Could also bring down griefing as you have to choose to pay monthly to have access to the game, eliminating the players who just want to mess with everyone because they are salty.
Granted I'm not suggesting MMO sub prices, hence suggesting Patreon.

Last edited by BerrypickerAF (2019-06-10 07:53:38)

Guppy · 2019-06-10 07:33:35

Its 20€ for lifetime access to the servers. You get all Updates for free. This just sounds like more cost for us and more work for jason

BerrypickerAF · 2019-06-10 07:46:18

Guppy wrote:

Its 20€ for lifetime access to the servers. You get all Updates for free. This just sounds like more cost for us and more work for jason

Would you rather spend $20 for a life time on something you don't know you'll like anymore in a month because it drastically changed, or $5/mo on the same thing but you have the option to opt out at any time if you don't like it anymore?
Yes it is more cost over long term, but it also supports the developer more steadily while also giving direct financial feedback on how well his vision is being received by his players.

Last edited by BerrypickerAF (2019-06-10 07:49:02)

BerrypickerAF · 2019-06-10 07:52:54

DestinyCall wrote:

I think his point is that unhappy people can't complain that they were sold a defective product if they are purchasing a service.

^

lionon · 2019-06-10 08:25:02

BerrypickerAF wrote:

It seems Patreon would be a way better platform to support/sell this game than Steam. It's often been made clear that we didn't buy a game, but a concept or a ticket to get to watch Jason do his thing.
Seems more like a Patreon thing rather than Steam. It allows for continuous support and pricing tiers, and if people don't like changes made to the game they can cancel their subscription. If we're getting a service, why not sell it like one?

Yes, I suggested this months ago, despite all the nay-sayers and theoretical "but if nonsense" in this thread. It works very well example for for ToadyOne (dwarf fortress) adding up to quite stable euros a month in the 4 digit range. Enough to make a decent living. Dunno why Jason doesn't want to get this road, at the end it's his decision tough.

PS: One misunderstanding I see, I wouldn't sell it as a service, like stop paying no more access, but providing access to the servers for free (or stay with the 20 bucks for life time), the patreon would just be people gifting it, because they consider this something awesome they want to support.

*Selling* the game has it's natural barrier anyway anywhere, at some point you saturated the market in people interested in this type of game.

Last edited by lionon (2019-06-10 08:28:25)

Guppy · 2019-06-10 08:47:06

BerrypickerAF wrote:

Guppy wrote:
Its 20€ for lifetime access to the servers. You get all Updates for free. This just sounds like more cost for us and more work for jason
Would you rather spend $20 for a life time on something you don't know you'll like anymore in a month because it drastically changed, or $5/mo on the same thing but you have the option to opt out at any time if you don't like it anymore?
Yes it is more cost over long term, but it also supports the developer more steadily while also giving direct financial feedback on how well his vision is being received by his players.

It just seems like a risky thing to do with todays flashmob mentality and how entitled many people on the internet have become

CatX · 2019-06-10 08:57:56

BerrypickerAF wrote:

Would you rather spend $20 for a life time on something you don't know you'll like anymore in a month because it drastically changed, or $5/mo on the same thing but you have the option to opt out at any time if you don't like it anymore?

I prefer $20 for lifetime access.

If the game manages to keep me entertained for around 4 hours (a little more than the length of a movie), I feel like I've gotten my money's worth. Any game time beyond that is pure bonus.

I like being able to take months off for different reasons, then return to the game to see what's happened. I still play Minecraft from time to time because I don't have to pay for it. I'm not sure I would return to OHOL after a break if I had to pay a monthly fee.

That said, I watch people play the game on Youtube before I make up my mind to purchase it, so I never end up with a product I don't like. Thus I knew OHOL was prone to change when I bought it.

BerrypickerAF · 2019-06-10 18:58:36

Guppy wrote:

It just seems like a risky thing to do with todays flashmob mentality and how entitled many people on the internet have become

Why is it risky? And why shouldn't people be entitled to vote with their money? The whole idea is that you'll have less of those, because if they don't like how the game is turning out they can just cancel their sub instead of being salty and angry demanding their one-time purchase back.

Last edited by BerrypickerAF (2019-06-10 18:59:04)

lychee · 2019-06-10 19:00:38

Risky because it always makes sense for a game developer to go with the option that will net the most money?

If Jason didn’t think Patron would make him more money than Steam sales, why would he want to go with Patron?

Guppy · 2019-06-10 19:00:48

BerrypickerAF wrote:

Guppy wrote:
It just seems like a risky thing to do with todays flashmob mentality and how entitled many people on the internet have become
Why is it risky? And why shouldn't people be entitled to vote with their money? The whole idea is that you'll have less of those, because if they don't like how the game is turning out they can just cancel their sub instead of being salty and angry demanding their one-time purchase back.

Do you really think people will NOT complain and be dicks over things if they could cancel the subscription?
I payed 20 € for the game, if i would have payed monthly i would probably payed even more. Wouldnt more money equal more salt?

jasonrohrer · 2019-06-10 22:58:37

Not sure here.

Selling a game off and on Steam, for a flat price was, for me, not risky. I had done it before, and it always worked out. The audience for indie games understands this model well, and their reasoning about it is very clear. There's no fear in the audience's mind about how much $$ they will sink long-term.

Alternative business models are risky because the audience isn't used to them. They can reject it because it's too strange or too scary. If it's $5/month, and I like the game a lot, how much will I end up giving this guy? If I subscribe, and then cancel, will I keep getting billed? What if I stop playing but forget to cancel?

"Montly subs" are often a trick to get you hooked and hope you forget.

So I'm pretty sure I would have made quite a bit less money at this point, because it would have scared people away.... and maybe, even be making less money right now?

And for the biggest fans of the game, they'd be on the hook for what, $75 already over 15 months?

Total Steam gross in the past 31 days is $34,948. To get that much per month, I'd need 7000 $5/month subscriptions running.

How many people lived a life in the past 31 days?

7107

So it's very close. I imagine that if the game was $5/month, that number would be smaller (people who played just a few lives this month would unsubscribe), but also, there would probably be some people who don't play anymore and keep their subs running by accident, or people who just want to support me even if they don't play.

66,045 people have ever lived a life in the game. Obviously, if all of them were subbing $5/month, I'd be doing way better than I am right now.

Now, if you're talking about Patreon in addition to, maybe... though I've seen a lot of sad-looking Patreons. I have asked for donations in the past as a way to support myself (and still do, marginally), but I'd much rather make a product that is good enough for people to pay for. So maybe Patreon as supplemental, but why if I don't need it?

Next, what about a subscription "creator's club" or somthing, for $5 extra a month? You know, maybe you get to test content early or something, or get it a week early, or get a halo around your head in game, or whatever. Reddit Gold.

I think this would rub a lot of people the wrong way.... and I can't imagine more than a few hundred people wanting to be part of such a club, so it just wouldn't be worth the risk to try it.

To summarize: pick a tried and true financial model that works, and as long as it's still working, move on and work on making a great game.

Don't confuse people with weird or unfamiliar models (and there may even be a backlash effect against games that are seen as milking players long-term).

jasonrohrer · 2019-06-10 23:01:54

Also, I think that alternative business models are a distraction. If you make a really great game, the business model won't matter too much. If you've tied yourself up in knots worrying about the business model, it might be a sign that the game you're making just isn't good enough to just plain sell.

jord1990 · 2019-06-10 23:46:56

I wouldnt have gotten the game if it was subscription based, Also one of the reasons I've never played WoW.

testo · 2019-06-11 02:46:25

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

lionon · 2019-06-11 08:05:02

testo wrote:

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

A little off topic but I honestly really dislike this saying. Because it's anti innovative as possible. Otherwise we would still write with type writers, because they weren't broke.

PS: The only place where I agree to this, don't mess around with a system that is going to be phased out in mid-future anyway.

Last edited by lionon (2019-06-11 08:06:17)

BerrypickerAF · 2019-06-11 08:48:27

Guppy wrote:

Do you really think people will NOT complain and be dicks over things if they could cancel the subscription?
I payed 20 € for the game, if i would have payed monthly i would probably payed even more. Wouldnt more money equal more salt?

people will always be dicks no matter what

jasonrohrer wrote:

Alternative business models are risky because the audience isn't used to them. They can reject it because it's too strange or too scary. If it's $5/month, and I like the game a lot, how much will I end up giving this guy?

That is very fair, I do think a lifetime purchase should still be an option, so perhaps Patreon alone isn't as good of a platform.
However a sub based system would give people the chance to try the game for a lower price if they so choose, one month or even two are plenty of time to decide if you're into it or not.
Bought a month sub to the game but didn't play it again after two weeks? Don't renew your sub and you only spent $5 instead of $20. Want to pick it back up later because you had an itch or a cool update came out? Heck, you can go put another $5 in for a month to see where it goes, or consider purchasing the lifetime pass for $20 since you already put in five bucks.

jasonrohrer wrote:

If I subscribe, and then cancel, will I keep getting billed? What if I stop playing but forget to cancel?

There are plenty of fail-safes to prevent providers from billing you for unwanted service. I have faith in you that you can come up with (and code) an automated system that can handle month by month transactions. The automatic renewal 'make you forget you subbed so we keep billing you' sub type is an invention of big corp to rip people off after all, and that's not what you're about I feel.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Also, I think that alternative business models are a distraction. If you make a really great game, the business model won't matter too much. If you've tied yourself up in knots worrying about the business model, it might be a sign that the game you're making just isn't good enough to just plain sell.

Steam started as an alternative business model. A game studio pivoting to a platform selling other studio's/pubisher's games on the PC? That was some wild shit back then, you were there so I'm sure you know how it used to be criticized at times. And now people look at you funny if you're a PC gamer and don't know what Steam is.
Daring to break the mold is key to innovation and creation of greatness.

Last edited by BerrypickerAF (2019-06-11 09:06:28)

testo · 2019-06-11 18:14:13

lionon wrote:

testo wrote:
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
A little off topic but I honestly really dislike this saying. Because it's anti innovative as possible. Otherwise we would still write with type writers, because they weren't broke.
PS: The only place where I agree to this, don't mess around with a system that is going to be phased out in mid-future anyway.

I was making a resume of Jason´s post. I understand what you are going with anti innovative, but innovation always goes with some risk involved. In this case It seems the risk is just too high compared to benefits.

jasonrohrer · 2019-06-11 19:10:24

BerrypickerAF wrote:

There are plenty of fail-safes to prevent providers from billing you for unwanted service. I have faith in you that you can come up with (and code) an automated system that can handle month by month transactions. The automatic renewal 'make you forget you subbed so we keep billing you' sub type is an invention of big corp to rip people off after all, and that's not what you're about I feel.

Of course I wouldn't do that, and I'd code it correctly and fairly.

BUT.... people are used to subscriptions tricking them and milking them long-term. So they are wary of subscriptions. You know, "Once I give these strangers my credit card, I'll keep getting billed forever, and end up on the phone in customer support hell for an hour to cancel the damn thing."

I'm not sure if Steam supports subscriptions. I believe that FastSpring does (off-Steam).

But part of the huge value of Steam is that people trust it, and they don't have to enter their CC# into a strange website.

Twisted · 2019-06-11 19:25:39

If OHOL was exclusively a Patreon-supported game I wouldn't have picked it up. I prefer to pay for something and then have it rather than having to pay a subscription.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-06-09 19:35:02

Why not Patreon?

#2 2019-06-09 22:30:18

Re: Why not Patreon?

#3 2019-06-09 23:08:23

Re: Why not Patreon?

#4 2019-06-09 23:31:49

Re: Why not Patreon?

#5 2019-06-10 00:45:36

Re: Why not Patreon?

#6 2019-06-10 07:19:08

Re: Why not Patreon?

#7 2019-06-10 07:33:35

Re: Why not Patreon?

#8 2019-06-10 07:46:18

Re: Why not Patreon?

#9 2019-06-10 07:52:54

Re: Why not Patreon?

#10 2019-06-10 08:25:02

Re: Why not Patreon?

#11 2019-06-10 08:47:06

Re: Why not Patreon?

#12 2019-06-10 08:57:56

Re: Why not Patreon?

#13 2019-06-10 18:58:36

Re: Why not Patreon?

#14 2019-06-10 19:00:38

Re: Why not Patreon?

#15 2019-06-10 19:00:48

Re: Why not Patreon?

#16 2019-06-10 22:58:37

Re: Why not Patreon?

#17 2019-06-10 23:01:54

Re: Why not Patreon?

#18 2019-06-10 23:46:56

Re: Why not Patreon?

#19 2019-06-11 02:46:25

Re: Why not Patreon?

#20 2019-06-11 08:05:02

Re: Why not Patreon?

#21 2019-06-11 08:48:27

Re: Why not Patreon?

#22 2019-06-11 18:14:13

Re: Why not Patreon?

#23 2019-06-11 19:10:24

Re: Why not Patreon?

#24 2019-06-11 19:25:39

Re: Why not Patreon?

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