Pine Walls Too Expensive

Dafuto · 2019-06-23 18:35:24

I feel like, at the moment, pine walls are redundant. Nobody uses them as they're far too expensive, and they don't provide as much insulation as the easier to make adobe walls or stone walls. I'd really like to see walls rebalanced as it gets pretty dull seeing the same stone walls and adobe walls all the time. Giving a sense of progression in terms of construction would be fun - early civilizations would start with pine walls, and later down the line they could be upgraded to the more advanced walls, giving an easy way to tell how advanced a town was.

Guppy · 2019-06-23 18:52:57

Make them use more needles instead of so much rope. easy fix but doesnt make the walls TOO easy to get

Taz · 2019-06-23 18:53:10

Yasss!

Thatch/Pine buildings should be Tier 1. They should be easy to make, from like pine straw combined with yew shafts or such.

Those pine walls should be upgradable by sticking adobe onto them, without having to tear them down first. Thus making adobe structures Tier 2.

Tier 3 could be plastering the adobe.

Tier 4 would be adding the stone facade onto the existing plastered adobe walls to make them into stone structures.

Optional addition: BRICKS! Create a new rectangle cooking item. We stick clay into it, fire it in the kiln, and get a stack of bricks from it. This would be an alternative Tier 4 wall item. It would give us the option of upgrading the walls to Tier 4 stone or Tier 4 bricks, depending on what visual look we want. Yay variety!

Last edited by Taz (2019-06-23 18:53:42)

Tarr · 2019-06-23 18:56:07

Pine walls are bad because they're hard to make in real life. Jason has talked about potentially buffing it so whenever you make a pine panel it has a few uses to combat the fact that it costs five ropes to make a single wall or door which is way too much. Even if pine walls were made cheaper I'm not exactly sure they would even be made it's super easy to toss up stone walls (even easier than doing adobe) which sort of defeats the purpose of having cheap walls in the first place.

Do I think they should be usable in game? Yeah sure, that makes sense to me.

Should people focus on making pine buildings if buffed? Probably not.

Guppy · 2019-06-23 18:57:32

I really like the idea of upgrading the wall, but then villages would be required to be near a swamp AND a snow biome
( Assuming buildings become more viable with the patch introducing the upgrading of walls)

Last edited by Guppy (2019-06-23 18:58:07)

Dafuto · 2019-06-23 19:05:24

Tarr wrote:

Pine walls are bad because they're hard to make in real life. Jason has talked about potentially buffing it so whenever you make a pine panel it has a few uses to combat the fact that it costs five ropes to make a single wall or door which is way too much. Even if pine walls were made cheaper I'm not exactly sure they would even be made it's super easy to toss up stone walls (even easier than doing adobe) which sort of defeats the purpose of having cheap walls in the first place.
Do I think they should be usable in game? Yeah sure, that makes sense to me.
Should people focus on making pine buildings if buffed? Probably not.

In that case, couldn't the stone and adobe walls be made more expensive as to encourage people to use the cheaper pine walls in the early game? If the adobe walls and stone walls were made more expensive and the pine walls made cheaper, surely that would encourage early towns to use pine walls until they had the recources later on to create the more advanced ones.

Tarr · 2019-06-23 19:36:31

Dafuto wrote:

In that case, couldn't the stone and adobe walls be made more expensive as to encourage people to use the cheaper pine walls in the early game? If the adobe walls and stone walls were made more expensive and the pine walls made cheaper, surely that would encourage early towns to use pine walls until they had the recources later on to create the more advanced ones.

In an ideal situation you can start building or getting resources to build as Eve. Early game doesn't last long enough to honestly justify needing to work with pine walls/doors in the first place unfortunately. Trying to nerf stone or adobe further wouldn't do pine walls any favor anyways as it would likely just lead to people building less in the first place rather than try to push forward in hopes that the worst tier walls start getting used.

Pine walls will likely always just be mostly underused content just like the morse machine or any of the super inefficient content like pork tacos and what not. Pine doors on the other hand are okay as they can't be locked so they can go into buildings that have no real preference to being opened or closed but that's about the only use for them now that we have spring doors. Old content gets left in the dust and newer content replaces it and that's okay in my book.

Jk Howling · 2019-06-23 22:16:58

Pine walls have always been too expensive, and will likely always be too expensive. At least until Jason wraps his mind around the value of milkweed and that "hurr but u can grow as much as u want no side effects smh XD" means literally nothing in terms of how valuable and necessary it is for nearly everything in the game.

This is his stance on milkweed. And I quote:

jasonrohrer wrote:

You guys can grow milkweed. As much as you want. It has no side-effects.

Perhaps one day he'll realize that 20 milkweed and 4 straight shafts for a single wall makes literally no sense and isn't worthwhile in the slightest, especially when we can make [eventually] permanent stone walls for infinitely cheaper resources.

RodneyC86 · 2019-06-23 22:27:51

Jk Howling wrote:

Pine walls have always been too expensive, and will likely always be too expensive. At least until Jason wraps his mind around the value of milkweed and that "hurr but u can grow as much as u want no side effects smh XD" means literally nothing in terms of how valuable and necessary it is for nearly everything in the game.
This is his stance on milkweed. And I quote:
jasonrohrer wrote:
You guys can grow milkweed. As much as you want. It has no side-effects.

Perhaps one day he'll realize that 20 milkweed and 4 straight shafts for a single wall makes literally no sense and isn't worthwhile in the slightest, especially when we can make [eventually] permanent stone walls for infinitely cheaper resources.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure spending 2 whole compost piles (or 1 , but sacrifice an entire shovel) is a totally worthwhile pursuit. If making a 6x6 interior building that's 28 piles and 28 shovels , or 56 compost piles and 14 shovels.

56 compost pilesa is 8000 or so potential gooseberries, which could feed like 100 lifetimes.

Food for thought, Jason. Make fibers for construction much more common, if you want to model real life in this specific aspect, know that fibers for construction is not THI rare

Last edited by RodneyC86 (2019-06-23 22:28:58)

BladeWoods · 2019-06-23 22:46:03

I haven't seen adobe walls in a while. It's always stone walls. The easiest and way too goddamn expensive to remove walls.

Amon · 2019-06-23 22:46:10

The issue is that OHOL lacks any substantial fixation materials. everything just uses rope instead of carpenter's glue (which ingredients we already have in game) or nails or any other type of material that could ease cope consumption.
If you only needed one rope per pine, that'd been much better, but I doubt a reduction in only rope would make people make them more commonly.
With as many long shafts around, you can make twice as long an enclosures out of fences, and fences aren't the go-to material for enclosures, insulation disregarded since you'll get the job done quicker by hauling back adobe from a distant swamp or rocks which are 'place and forget' materials.

Sukallinen · 2019-06-24 02:04:12

Where I live, a house was about to be dismantled.

It was found out it was one left from before big fire in 1800's, one made from straw and clay. Never heard of pine needles used as wall material. Remember, we have down to -40 at winters(below that no school), up to +40 celsius in summers - well, normal summer +30 celsius is maximum. I discount those couple summers in this decade that +24 was max...

testo · 2019-06-24 02:29:53

This has already been said many times.

a) Buildings are not a necessity for the game, but an aesthetic feature.

b) Pine panels are dead content because of the material costs, not because they are hard to make (unlike IRL).

RodneyC86 · 2019-06-24 02:34:46

testo wrote:

This has already been said many times.
a) Buildings are not a necessity for the game, but an aesthetic feature.
b) Pine panels are dead content because of the material costs, not because they are hard to make (unlike IRL).

If we are to model OHOL to real life, at least in terms of shelter being an absolute must for survival - how would you go about it?

Wonder if weather can be supported by the engine?

testo · 2019-06-24 02:54:51

RodneyC86 wrote:

testo wrote:
This has already been said many times.
a) Buildings are not a necessity for the game, but an aesthetic feature.
b) Pine panels are dead content because of the material costs, not because they are hard to make (unlike IRL).

If we are to model OHOL to real life, at least in terms of shelter being an absolute must for survival - how would you go about it?
Wonder if weather can be supported by the engine?

For me the direct approach is impossible. Shelters main use is to protect against day/night cycle and maybe predators. Day/ Night is not possible to model.

However there is an indirect approach. Make buildings enable certain tech. Example: normal oven only cooks rubber and mutton. Oven in a closed building allows for pies. Pretty sure every town would have a proper kitchen then.

Forge in a closed building allows for Newcommen Hammer. That would be dope, because you would actually have to make a building to advance in tech. Every town would have a proper forge place.

What about fire? Fire in a closed area could last double.

Women could increase theyr fertility rate in closed buidings.

But this isn´t going to happen. Jason´s view of the game is that we don´t need more stuff (And I actually agree), but for some reason he isn´t capable of making the stuff we have useful. Pine walls should hardly cost a thread to match the cost of a stone block.

Sukallinen · 2019-06-24 02:55:08

Weather as such can't be (isn't it like one second is 6 days irl), but it could be ofc, whole server having, say, rain, for, 30 seconds=half a year. Oh well. I can live with that.

So maybe, if you spent not a second inside that 30 secs of rain in (new item: tent, usable once, one small item size) or correct area of building, you'd not have double food consumption for next year or two. Not too hard to code, and image for rain should be rather easy, just google what I sometimes use in background or going to sleep. Hard to code would be stuff it would do to environment, but no need to do anything, right ?

Also, would allow new foods since now they would be needed. (edit: misspellings)

Last edited by Sukallinen (2019-06-24 02:55:58)

RodneyC86 · 2019-06-24 03:08:39

Sukallinen wrote:

Weather as such can't be (isn't it like one second is 6 days irl), but it could be ofc, whole server having, say, rain, for, 30 seconds=half a year. Oh well. I can live with that.
So maybe, if you spent not a second inside that 30 secs of rain in (new item: tent, usable once, one small item size) or correct area of building, you'd not have double food consumption for next year or two. Not too hard to code, and image for rain should be rather easy, just google what I sometimes use in background or going to sleep. Hard to code would be stuff it would do to environment, but no need to do anything, right ?
Also, would allow new foods since now they would be needed. (edit: misspellings)

I had a similar shower thought. Rain comes randomly as you said and need shelter to avoid getting soaked and losing food pips faster, plus maybe heatwaves too.
Rain - to compensate for annoyance of needing to find shelter - can give maybe a random 20% chance of watering each dry plot for free

Sukallinen · 2019-06-24 03:42:04

RodneyC86 wrote:

I had a similar shower thought. Rain comes randomly as you said and need shelter to avoid getting soaked and losing food pips faster, plus maybe heatwaves too.

In fact, to facilitate easy coding while not decreasing yum-chain AND help to add more foods and maybe zero yumchain when hit with rough weather (or diminish yum by some, not fair to zero imo). We'd get rid of many foods, get yum for planning better (when adventuring you'd need to figure out what and how much to bring with you) etc-though tent would help here. Just one second during blizzard/whatever would help.

Please don't take me as some doomsayer, I don't mean to get peoples life more difficult, but this would give buildings, wayhouses and (possibly tents) a purpose. Write to paper: one-twenty-west-horse-fence-rainshelter-too. It'd add to reality of situation and you'd know to read library before leaving town (oh, did you notice me slipping a meaning to towns having a library there ?).

Do note, it helps also with friends playing together - you'd like to have each pie, so go adventure with friend, if bad weather you can eat from eachother's pies and potatoes. One brings some, other brings some. <3

SparkleCake · 2019-06-24 12:11:02

Tarr wrote:

Pine walls are bad because they're hard to make in real life. Jason has talked about potentially buffing it so whenever you make a pine panel it has a few uses to combat the fact that it costs five ropes to make a single wall or door which is way too much.

They cost five ropes? Wow!

That explains why I haven't seen pine walls in over 400 hours of play time. The art for them is so pretty, too. Before reading this thread, my opinion on them was, "Those rich brown walls from the OHOL trailer are really nice. It's too bad they aren't in the game yet."

Milkweed is often such a precious resource. I'm not sure people would build pine walls even if they had an effective cost of only one rope per wall, nevermind five. If that were the case, they might get built because it's something new to do — but people would soon realize that other materials are far less intrusive to use.

When you're building with adobe or stone, you're typically the only person doing that. When you're farming milkweed, it gets plucked by family constantly if it's in the open. Even rope for gates isn't safe: More often than not, I return to find that my lonely gate rope has been taken for some greater purpose.

Tarr · 2019-06-24 12:14:59

SparkleCake wrote:

Tarr wrote:
Pine walls are bad because they're hard to make in real life. Jason has talked about potentially buffing it so whenever you make a pine panel it has a few uses to combat the fact that it costs five ropes to make a single wall or door which is way too much.
They cost five ropes? Wow!
That explains why I haven't seen pine walls in over 400 hours of play time. The art for them is so pretty, too. Before reading this thread, my opinion on them was, "Those rich brown walls from the OHOL trailer are really nice. It's too bad they aren't in the game yet."
Milkweed is often such a precious resource. I'm not sure people would build pine walls even if they had an effective cost of only one rope per wall, nevermind five. If that were the case, they might get built because it's something new to do — but people would soon realize that other materials are far less intrusive to use.
When you're building with adobe or stone, you're typically the only person doing that. When you're farming milkweed, it gets plucked by family constantly if it's in the open. Even rope for gates isn't safe: More often than not, I return to find that my lonely gate rope has been taken for some greater purpose.

Well in ye olden days milkweed used to regrow every hour if you picked it in the correct stage so it was possible to make pine buildings (even if they were still rare.) Now of course since that changed forever ago they've basically just been waaaay too expensive to really think about using which is sort of a shame.

I mean I've built pine walls before in game but I don't think I've ever personally gotten a full building done since it's just too much work over too many hours for something that can be destroyed by the click of an ax (this was done to prevent door griefing which was a major issue at one point.)

Sukallinen · 2019-06-24 12:49:28

I had long discussion about growing milkweed. People are basically annoyed it produces one plant per a slot of soil (two). I see no problem, make more soil ? IRL today in usa or, let's say brazil, some crop is so tax-reduced (most cars in brazil use local fuel which is alcohol). USA does almost useless corn. None of my business though.

People just don't like they don't get so much return/usage of land. Even after hours of discord-chat I've failed to tell that - some crops just need more work !

I do not care if irl that is easier etc... this is game, not irl, so J makes some stuff harder, some easier.

Build hexagonal farms with holes to get ropes in, and while other stay in their 4x4 farms, you go adventure, help your village, and come back and there's still four ropes or so to be picked by you (I mean me). And I repeat: elders of village see this, see you bringing valuable stuff so they give you bp with knife, clothes etc - so you save even more time with this. No need to make extra knife, kindling, coal-you get it for being NICE. Ez.

Last edited by Sukallinen (2019-06-24 12:51:24)

CatX · 2019-06-24 14:09:20

Sukallinen wrote:

I had long discussion about growing milkweed. People are basically annoyed it produces one plant per a slot of soil (two). I see no problem, make more soil ?

If it were that simple, I'm sure people would be doing it

Make more soil:
Pick berries
Add carrot
Oh, few carrots left
Get wheat - wait, low on wheat too
Now the compost is almost done, need poop
Pick more berries
Add another carrot
Wait...
Finally, you have soil.
Plant carrots and wheat since you're low
Not enough milkweed
Pick more berries
Add another carrot
Finally, planted 20 milkweed
Someone needs a bucket which is more important than a pine wall
Someone needs a slot box which is more important than a pine wall
Someone needs a lasso to get a horse
Make more soil...
Pick more berries
Plant more carrots

It's just not worth it.

Last edited by CatX (2019-06-24 14:09:57)

CatX · 2019-06-24 14:13:12

But that said, I don't necessarily think milkweed should be cheaper. I think high tech farming should be more efficient so that it pays to climb the tech ladder.

Tarr · 2019-06-24 14:20:35

Sukallinen wrote:

I had long discussion about growing milkweed. People are basically annoyed it produces one plant per a slot of soil (two). I see no problem, make more soil ?

Each compost pile you make only nets you two rope and one thread which feels terrible when jumping through all those hoops to go through. There's a reason why most people would rather just grab a horse and collect wild milkweed instead of just grow it in the first place. I think the most ropes I've personally made in an hour solo was about 25 or so and honestly that was an awfully boring life where I was just using natural soil deposits since otherwise it would have taken 12 or so full piles of composted soil to do so.

I don't care if things are hard but tedium shouldn't be the determining factor when it comes to either growing a domestic crop or just running around in the wilderness collecting it up. As long as people aren't doing the same thing as you, you can definitely just go out and collect wild milkweed faster than you can generally grow it and that just seems silly.

CatX · 2019-06-24 14:53:17

Suggestions:

- Irrigation. Make a hose of rubber, dig ditches for the hose and connect it to a pump. Instead of buckets of water, the pump now waters tiles along the hose.

- Soil distributing cart: Put (baskets of?) soil in cart. As you walk, the cart automatically dispenses one soil per free tile you pass.

- Plough. Slow when drawn by hand, normal speed when drawn by a horse. Tills the land if soil present. Instead of two patches of soil, you only need one.

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#1 2019-06-23 18:35:24

Pine Walls Too Expensive

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Re: Pine Walls Too Expensive

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