Losing faith

RedComb · 2019-07-08 07:49:38

First, @AdelaSkarupa... I wrote what I wrote and specifically added this to address your kind of objection:

And yes, I realize this is comparing a game to real life, but I just want Jason to consider that maybe 5% is still pretty traumatic to people who might think OHOL is simulating civilization, which is one of the answers some people give to complaints about the warsword, btw. ("stop complaining about the warsword and murder, this game is a simulation of civilization" etc)

If you'd like, I could find quotes of people who said we had no business objecting to warswords and violence in the game because this game is a simulation of civilization and war and violence are a part of that, so we need to just shut up because killing is part of civilization. But then when you try to point out how murder is only a very fractional, minor part of life, we get responses like yours "THIS IS A GAME!"

My point is that if we're going to have realism in that respect and in so many other respects, then why be selective about it when it comes to determining what is and isn't a normal amount of murder in the game.

testo wrote:

You can´t compare in-game murders to real-life murders in a game that simulates civilization?
Well, it seems to be very important to compare
Pine panel production
Milkweed
Language
Climate and habitability
...
Hell I could go on for a few minutes here.
That being said, the comparison is flawled for a different reason. I´m using this data https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_ … ted_States
So if 4.5 is the actual number per 100.000 living people in a YEAR then in a lifespan of 80 years (a full life) you get 360 murders.
Note the difference, because murder rate in real life comes as number of murders per 100.000 people a year not as number of murders per complete life.

testo's point of murder per 100,000 people per year is a good one. I'm not a math person and I realize this kind of comparison is apples to oranges.

However, I still think if you thought of all the "completed lives" in the USA (be they somebody who died at 80, or an 18 year old, or an infant who died shortly after birth), imagining 5% of those deaths being from intentional murder seems like an obscenely high number. That would be 5 of every 100 people who died (regardless of age) dying of intentional murder.

Again, I'm a math idiot so maybe I totally misunderstand, but I just think it is not normal in a civilized (or primitive) society that a 5% murder rate is "not that much."

I totally understand Adela's point that it's a game, but again, if people are going to hold us to the standard that warswords and violence have a place in this game because it is a simulation, then that degree should apply to other aspects of the game as well (including the murder rate).

AdelaSkarupa wrote:

You can't compare because the people committing countless murders in this game would never murder someone in real life.

testo wrote:

Why would they never murder IRL but they would in a civilization game. Maybe there is something that real civilization has that the game lacks...

RodneyC86 wrote:

Well for one thing, you would likely end up in jail or you will have to be on the run if you murdered someone.

And here is the crux of the issue. There are no mechanics or means for players to police this kind of behavior in OHOL besides eye-for-an-eye retaliation after the fact.

There are no laws, no justice system, no jails, no handcuffs or restraints. No rule of law. OHOL is all anarchy with people being at the mercy of bad actors, and there is no order or social contract that people are accountable to... The cursing system used to be a band-aid solution to their omission, but now that it is limited to lineage-only cursing, it is a half measure at best.

So we have a game that simulates civilization, including war and murder, but has no rule or law or criminal justice system. And this is the real problem with introducing a feature like the warsword in a game like this. There is no accountability to murder and mayhem.

In "free" developed and developing nations, in "free" industrial and tribal societies alike, it is argued that people will naturally give up some of their freedom for the benefits of living in a community where their life, liberty, and property is protected (and there are punishments for taking any of these things from another person or group).

This is the core of the Social Contract Theory. Every "free" society relies on a rule of law and people believing that the trade off they make in their personal freedom is worth the stability and safety they gain by living within a lawful community.

People who refuse to adhere to this social contract (by murdering other people, kidnapping other people, and/or taking property that isn't theirs)... well, in a lawful society, there is an established system in place where those bad actors can forcibly be ceased, imprisoned, and punished in whatever way the people in that community thinks is appropriate.

Finally, I've mentioned this before, but another major problem with OHOL is the total lack of a persistent identity.

With every new life, with ever new name, you are totally anonymous again and can grief a whole new group of people again and again. There is nothing that can be done that sticks to you beyond that life. And nobody will ever know what a jerk you are unless you make a point of exposing your misdeeds on discord or the forums.

In real life, a person's persistent identity (e.g., biometrics like fingerprints) make it extremely difficult for them to assume a new identity and escape justice.

In this game, you just starve to death or get killed and reborn and, with the exception of maybe getting sent to donkey town if enough people in your lineage cursed you, you are free to murder and make war all over again without any repercussions to your actions. Future family members will never know you are a bad apple until you've done them dirty, and even then, within a few minutes you get away with it Scott free and you're free to abuse another group of people.

I've made these points before and I realize most people don't read what I say, but again, in a game where people say "you must accept war and murder because that is part of civilization and this game simulates civilization," well where is the justice system and social contracts then? Where is the persistent identity that establishes you a friend or foe of the "lawful" community? Why does realism only apply to features you want, like the warsword, but not to features like persistent identities, or a justice system, or even a reputation system?

(P.S. Raph Koster and the Ultima Online devs tried many of these very solutions to address the rampant player-killing in the granddaddy of all MMO's, and all of their solutions failed, but that's something else I posted about that was ignored, so whatever)

Last edited by RedComb (2019-07-08 08:05:57)

RodneyC86 · 2019-07-08 08:46:11

At the heart of it though, a game can't equal real life and I think law enforcement mechanics can itself be used to grief. We already have innocents mass cursed after being misdirected by griefers.

Real life - relatively peaceful because life is priceless , not merely precious

Life in a game is more precious yes, but it can never truly be priceless , so long as this is fact, its basically unfixable unless we get a sword art online deal here. Ie. If you die in game you die in real life

Trying to make OHOL model real life is an exercise of making a nerf gun fight having consequences of a real shootout. It can't happen

NB: Not a war sword supporter. To be honest, I have always wished OHOL moved more into the direction of being an "engine building" game ala, factorio, tropico, surviving mars
I would play a server which totally forbids killing, or maybe a server where someone can be 'magically' executed if enough players support the motion - but never outright murder

Last edited by RodneyC86 (2019-07-08 08:48:46)

testo · 2019-07-08 09:39:39

AdelaSkarupa wrote:

testo wrote:
AdelaSkarupa wrote:
You can't compare because the people committing countless murders in this game would never murder someone in real life.
Why would they never murder IRL but they would in a civilization game. Maybe there is something that real civilization has that the game lacks...
The fact that you are even struggling with this concept disturbs me. So let me break it down for you...
Game: Cartoon people with no pain, no value, and they keep coming back.
Real life: A real person with one life to live; Someone's mom, sister, father, brother, etc.
In summary, THIS IS A GAME!

Hey chill out. It is a game that models civilization, ergo society.

Not everyone that doesn´t agree with you is wrong, why are you trying to impose your view anyways?

I can compare. And will I keep keep doing it. Lel. The fact that there are so many murders in the game says a lot about the gameplay.

arkajalka · 2019-07-08 14:39:44

XD all the drama. I just stay out of drama and work hard. Theres always people that love to fester on social issues. Then theres people who work. All i have to say for you fireside drama clubbers

GET TO WORK!

Ilka · 2019-07-08 16:52:55

RedComb wrote:

But haven't you heard? The murder rate is only 5%... Jason will point to numbers like that over and over again to dismiss people's complaints about the amount of murders.
FYI, the murder rate this past Sunday (a peak day) was 5%.
Out of 6261 deaths in the game on Sunday, 330 of them were murders,
To put that in perspective, 1060 people died of old age (which is pretty hard to do), which is more than 3x the number of people who were murdered that day.
95% of people in the game died peacefully on Sunday.
https://steamcommunity.com/id/zb011/recommended/595690/

5%? Only 5%? Hmmmm ...

And how many SID children are there among the players?

From my observation it appears that about 50% of players are SID children.

So if half the players are eliminated at the start, it means that the number of players killed is 10% (5% of all players, so 10% of the half who wants to play in this place).

So every tenth player is killed. If you add to this players who are saved (maybe every tenth), it means that we have a big problem with violence in the game.

Morti

What you write is beautiful and wise but you have to fight for certain things or nothing will change.

I watched with satisfaction as players discarded nonsense fences.

And I looked hopefully as they tried to play normally and kindly refer to strangers.

But it just did not work out. Balance in the game has been disturbed too much.

One Hour One Life Forums

#26 2019-07-08 07:49:38

Re: Losing faith

#27 2019-07-08 08:46:11

Re: Losing faith

#28 2019-07-08 09:39:39

Re: Losing faith

#29 2019-07-08 14:39:44

Re: Losing faith

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