Quick jab at the negativity.

Grim_Arbiter · 2019-07-10 20:17:13

Before you go off on me about only being positive, or dismissing criticism, I'm doing neither one. I will never be the one to shut somebody completely off because I don't like what they're saying. I'm not ever going to tell somebody how to live their lives either for the most part (as long as you don't harm or impede my wellbeing). I'm not a yes man for these issues by any means either.

But

I think personally a lot of people are being overtly negative out of ignorance and their own personal impatience.

My quote this week is kinda poking fun at that mindset.

The song it comes from highlights the examples of those who demand the product before considering the process.

The line itself is talking about how consumer appetites are larger than what they are willing to, or have already contributed to something. People demand amazing products, but aren’t willing to contribute to creating amazing products, or even have the patience for the work associated with it.

One last thing to address..
The "15 years experience" quote everyone jumps on makes sense to me, and always has.

If I have 10 to 15 years of experience growing a certain kind of plant like I do now, and I went and made a vlog about it, why the hell would I listen to someone commenting? They could be completely wrong or just have another method I'm not comfortable with.

Im more likely to listen to someone I can verify has put in the time and effort and isn't an armchair farmer.

Now if theres 20 comments saying the same thing yelling " the soil is wrong" I'll be more inclined to take a look at that aspect, and would try to get specifics, rather than a general consensus before I went and tried to remedy anything. "Ok what exactly is wrong? Too much clay? Is the ph in my soil not working well because of my water ph? Tell me these things"

TLDR and final point

Don't ever stop giving constructive criticism and your points of view, but if it leans too far negative (or even positive) don't be surprised or angry if someone sees through it and calls you a negative nancy (or positive pete).

Just keep an open mind.

ollj · 2019-07-10 21:10:53

thats just bayes theorem stuff.

MultiLife · 2019-07-10 21:35:24

Difference with your example is that you have a product that you yourself enjoy and make, and that's all it has to do, so however you bring it forth, you can do whatever you want as long as the plant is thriving and growing.
With a game, you make a product people use, and you need to be able to please the majority to get a success, and get loyal players stay.
Rather than growing a plant, you'd grow an apple. You know how you create those apples and what it takes. However, the customers cannot bite the apples, they are too hard. They also don't taste that good. So they start suggesting; maybe if you change the soil? Maybe if you use soft water? Maybe if you sing to your apples?
Some of those would be absolutely ridiculous to you. Like what, sing to them to make them softer and easier to eat? Sorry princess, I know that's not gonna happen, get better teeth or mash the apples then!
And then, people start moving to other apples... Feeling defeated, sad, frustrated that they were turned away like that. Some would stay and maybe the farmer and the customers could make something good together, or then not, depends on how well they are able to understand each other without making each other feel inferior.

I see myself as a very, very, very patient person. I am a people pleaser, and I make a lot of compromises. I also sacrifice a lot from myself. However, I have enough respect for myself that I have developed and kept principles. I trust myself as I give a lot of time and thought to my thoughts and actions, and reactions. I think from all sorts of angles and have a lot of empathy, which makes it easier to relate to others, and also see their sides to things. I can see how someone enjoys killing and fighting, but I can also see how others don't, and all the reasons for and against that. I want everyone to be able to have fun, and a good game will be able to do it, and it will do it well.

When I see a flaw, that I identify as a flaw, my perfectionism strikes, and it can strike hard if my feelings get tangled in there. Especially when I see injustice. When I see a balance favoring a side, when I see people taking advantage of that power (which in end causes destruction upon a product or its users), I take action.

I think the beauty of OHOL was making your own life, your own story, sometimes nudged to directions you wouldn't have gone yourself. I personally got hooked on the "feel-good" peace, teamwork, friendship and creation. Some didn't, and will not, understandable. However, they should be able to have their fun, and I should be able to have mine. But when they get power over me, to impose themselves and their intentions on me, I get frustrated. Why do they get to do this to me, and I just have to sit and take it? I don't want it. Thus, I get noisy. I get impatient. I want to play, I want to play alot, but when I get hit with these situations, which bring forth these feelings, I get disappointed; to the players, to the game, to the flawed systems. I want to recommend the game and play with friends, but I can't, if it keeps disappointing me. I hate the stories of "and then they mindlessly killed me because they were bored and because they could". That's no fun.

Last edited by MultiLife (2019-07-10 23:21:21)

Morti · 2019-07-11 01:07:07

Grim_Arbiter wrote:

The song

I've probably listened to this 50 times in the last 5 days.

I like the sound of it, but the words remind me of something even more memorable; Stanislaw Lem's Solaris.

At first you might think Solaris is about people, investigating another world, a world that seems to be alive, but in a way that is new to humanity. In the book, Solaris is described as, well, sort of playing with itself. It creates forms that people call mimoids, that take shape for short amounts of time, and, seem to enjoy interacting with each other. They rise and fall out of the ocean, like waves, but they take all kinds of playful shapes, shapes that exhibit different features and, styles.

Movies have been made about Solaris, but they focus on the people, the humans come to investigate this strange new world. And when the world begins to react to their presence, to play with them via mimoids it draws from their minds, they, the humans, go crazy.

There are many ways to interpret the situation which Stanislaw Lem writes about Solaris.
- People have no idea what possibilities are out there; what kinds of life forms might be waiting for us.
- Humans will struggle to adapt to new things.
- Humans ...
- People ..
- Humanity .

Reviews and interpretations, including the movies, fail to really focus on the planet itself, the way the first scientists do in the book - the scientists that have all killed themselves, or each other, after the planet began to, innocently, try communicating back to them. It's language was the mimoids, that rise and fell from the living ocean that covered it's surface.

I watched the movies in reverse order before finally reading the book.

First, Steven Soderbergh's 2002 version, with the amazing music of Cliff Martinez and some visuals of the planet that made it look like a ball of plasma. No visuals of the mimoids observed on the surface, not even any mention of them. Just the ones the planet makes for the people, aboard the station in orbit around Solaris.

Then I watched Tarkovsky's 1972 version. No plasma, but a lot of water. No mimoids depicted playing with each other on the surface, but the main character does go down to the surface to find an island created, seemingly for him, out of his memory of his home.

I have not seen the 1968 radio-television-movie-play adaptation of the book. I couldn't find it anywhere.

So, I finally read the book.

--

It was through the book that Stanislaw Lem played with my imagination, the way the mimoids played with each other.
It was through the book, I think, I understood what was missing from the movies. Something I only realize just now is hinted at towards the end of both movies.
We are the mimoids of Solaris.
We, are the beings that rise and fall from the sea of life.
Our sea, is the biosphere of Earth, it is the biomass that blankets the surface.
We are those waves, that rise out of the ocean and end crashing into the shore. The memory of what we once were, what we leave behind, rippling back out, to influence those moving towards the same fate.

While I do hope that somewhere out there, there are worlds like Solaris. Whether they be living stars, living oceans that blanket worlds, or entire planets transformed into a single being, like a single cell, but with no walls to divide it from the rest of the universe. While I do hope there are many other origins of life out there, I gotta say, I really have enjoyed being a part of this one. And while DNA, cells, organs and organisms, may make it seem like we, Earth, are very distinct from Solaris, looking at a life form the way you might look at a wave on the shore, the lick of a flame or a branch in a bolt of lightning... well, it's broken me down.

--

I'm sorry, what were you guys talking about? Selling apples? Growing soil? Farming armchairs?
I must have missed something.

Please, watch, listen, feel. Play, love and live. While you are, in shape.

Grim_Arbiter · 2019-07-11 01:35:38

Ive never heard of that theory before, gotta look into it more.

MultiLife wrote:

Difference with your example is that you have a product that you yourself enjoy and make, and that's all it has to do, so however you bring it forth, you can do whatever you want as long as the plant is thriving and growing.
With a game, you make a product people use, and you need to be able to please the majority to get a success, and get loyal players stay.
Rather than growing a plant, you'd grow an apple. You know how you create those apples and what it takes. However, the customers cannot bite the apples, they are too hard. They also don't taste that good. So they start suggesting; maybe if you change the soil? Maybe if you use soft water? Maybe if you sing to your apples?
Some of those would be absolutely ridiculous to you. Like what, sing to them to make them softer and easier to eat? Sorry princess, I know that's not gonna happen, get better teeth or mash the apples then!
And then, people start moving to other apples... Feeling defeated, sad, frustrated that they were turned away like that. Some would stay and maybe the farmer and the customers could make something good together, or then not, depends on how well they are able to understand each other without making each other feel inferior.

I would like to point out one thing here, not saying I disagree on some parts, but there is one thing in that apple example that is missing.

In that example I'm not growing common green granny smith apples, but rather some uncharted phenotype work with mutagenesis(which I have done, but not for apples) and trying to make my own apple type that is completely new.

Jason is making a game that doesn't fit in a category box and isn't run of the mill. Its a new evolving subject in its own and in unknown waters. Hes not using anyones ANYTHING like Lua or XNA, and any hate or praise about anything can only fall on him. The closest genre games are like stardew valley, or dont starve, and aren't really in the same ballpark with certain issues.

Both examples will draw flak with progress "Oi your last batch of crazy apples wasn't as good as the last couple, quit changing it!" While said criticized progress might lead to even better apples because you keep pushing the envelope. It might make them worse, but if you dont experiment and try things, you'll never know.. not till your satisfied with your creation. Looking back at the base game before updates is proof of where it's come from. I think it will be the similar if you look at this point in time and compare it to when jason eventually says "I'm done."

Would it be safer to stick with a safe formula, or in the apples case, stick to basic green apples?

Of course!

But they wouldn't be YOUR creation, and you'd miss out on the chance to make something spectacular... or flop right on your face.

Its just how it goes. High risk high reward.

And in terms of mindless killing, it might be in peak, but it's always been there.

In my first week playing in 2018 I was stabbed as a sacrifice for todd howard and fed to a bear as a baby.. it's never been completely sunshine and rainbows for me

Last edited by Grim_Arbiter (2019-07-11 02:31:08)

seth · 2019-07-11 03:07:29

Thanks for posting this! I totally agree..

What follows is a stream of consciousness rant on design in general.

I do web dev / design, and something I've come to really appreciate is how design has overlap across the board. That post that Jason posted bout feedback that's actually helpful makes a lot of sense in all fields.. In game design as well as web design, people in general tend to make the same mistake - framing feedback as solutions rather than describing the problem better.

In the world of web design this comes across like "Make this button bigger and red". That kind of feedback is not useful for a good designer. Better feedback is "This page makes me feel anxious". Diving into that can help the designer make much better decisions.

Now, in the world of web design, another web designer can provide emotional feedback, and possibly even some solutions - though honestly I think good decisions come from playing around with ideas and seeing how the look next to each other.. In game design however, there are so many other invisible constraints to deal with.. Game engine architecture, data, performance issues.. It's difficult for anyone who is merely playing the game to give good solutions - only insight into the problems.

Much respect for the craft of game design and Jason as one of the most innovative! It's pretty awesome we get to be a part of a game that will likely be looked back upon as a milestone of innovation of our time.. long after the mainstream ones have faded into memory.

Tarr · 2019-07-11 08:31:43

How much of the negativity is truly unwarranted though? The fifteen years of experience comment came off as telling the community we're a bunch of idiots who cannot understand how or why things are the way they are. Jason comes up with a wonky idea at 3 am and decides that would be a weeks content (fences) with people repeatedly telling him they're a bad idea. Lo and behold, they were a bad idea and better yet he leaves them bad because that's how he likes them. Jason then comes up with the idea of language and swords with people being iffy on language (was a good update after the second week) and people directly telling him swords are a terrible addition. Lo and behold he purposely makes swords busted to try to get people to use fences.

I understand not holding him accountable when something accidentally broken comes into the game (stacking carrots, infinite bananas/mangoes, the first butter knife incident) but it doesn't take a genius for people to step back and see something isn't right. I had to spend a week and make a video of me shitting all over the fun of random people to get him to even take a LOOK at war swords in the first place. I killed ninety players that week. Ninety different times people had one guy come to their village and just massacre everyone or nearly everyone for no other reason than to try to get Jason to understand this was not okay.

I am all for praising Jason whenever he releases a good update (check news threads where it was a good week) but at the same time I'm just as happy to tell him what is wrong with an update. I just want to see OHOL become the best game it can possibly be at the end of the day, it's why I've made sure to out any sort of the dozens of bugs I've found ranging from the mundane (making talking tools, freaking out the game client through flight, and different animals leaving invisible wounds) to the absolute gamebreaking (Latest snowball bug, shooting through solid objects, duplicating items, deleting all sorts of items, etc.) Hell I even reported the twin thing I was abusing to play in the same city repeatedly, the perfect temperature server, and even the last coordinate leak. I want ohol to be great, not just something I bitch about because of bad changes to the game.

Dantox · 2019-07-11 08:42:44

I believe that most of the negativity has come from the frustation of recent design decisions and updates, is also not helping that when jason delivers an argument why he does stuff does it in the worst way possible "an example is the 15 years of game design and rich dynamics speech"

My take on this is that there is obviously an disagreement between the playerbase and the developer, and if left untreated it will bring the game to its downfall

MultiLife · 2019-07-11 11:20:19

Grim_Arbiter wrote:

I would like to point out one thing here, not saying I disagree on some parts, but there is one thing in that apple example that is missing.
In that example I'm not growing common green granny smith apples, but rather some uncharted phenotype work with mutagenesis(which I have done, but not for apples) and trying to make my own apple type that is completely new.
Jason is making a game that doesn't fit in a category box and isn't run of the mill. Its a new evolving subject in its own and in unknown waters. Hes not using anyones ANYTHING like Lua or XNA, and any hate or praise about anything can only fall on him. The closest genre games are like stardew valley, or dont starve, and aren't really in the same ballpark with certain issues.
Both examples will draw flak with progress "Oi your last batch of crazy apples wasn't as good as the last couple, quit changing it!" While said criticized progress might lead to even better apples because you keep pushing the envelope. It might make them worse, but if you dont experiment and try things, you'll never know.. not till your satisfied with your creation. Looking back at the base game before updates is proof of where it's come from. I think it will be the similar if you look at this point in time and compare it to when jason eventually says "I'm done."
Would it be safer to stick with a safe formula, or in the apples case, stick to basic green apples?
Of course!
But they wouldn't be YOUR creation, and you'd miss out on the chance to make something spectacular... or flop right on your face.
Its just how it goes. High risk high reward.

So you're saying we are saying Jason should stick with "safe formulas" so we would avoid bad changes...? Or is that a wrong conclusion? Is it more like a declamation of how it is or a point how our behavior should adjust?
Anyways, I have never seen anyone say "do it like they do", as in suggesting staying "inside the box", more like "well these guys did it like this, this man took critique like this". I've always seen people reflect on their in-game experiences, and with thousands of hours, they have a lot of knowledge of those. And people are always open to changes, but they also quickly word their concerns, which oftentimes hit home with updates.
Sometimes people say "quit changing it" in a way of "why did you do that, it didn't need a change like this". That's the closest I've seen it get. And it's usually legit on both sides, with reasonings for a change and the issues it caused, although often the changes baffle the community as they do come in behind a corner. Like the stream sniping causing cursing to stay inside a family. That felt like a hasty solution that just happened, and we still see the consequences of the change affecting everyone, not just streamers. Yes, at least a change happened, yes, we see what it does, and yes, we feel like we could find a better solution.

In the end, yes, only way of knowing for sure is to push out content and changes. But, when changes have consequences, they can quickly lead us to a wild goose chase of issues. At some point, we should be able to arrive to a point where things are good, as we have many times seen happen. It takes a moment, and when curveball changes happen, we get even more loops to chase the goose around in. It gets frustrating on both sides, until one of the sides bark out something that feels like an attack, then we get discouraged, part ways, sometimes forever or momentarily.

Grim_Arbiter wrote:

And in terms of mindless killing, it might be in peak, but it's always been there.
In my first week playing in 2018 I was stabbed as a sacrifice for todd howard and fed to a bear as a baby.. it's never been completely sunshine and rainbows for me

I'm not aiming for sunshines and rainbows, I'm not expecting 0% of mindless killing. I'm pointing at designs that are flawed and give advantage to mindless killing and encourage it; not being able to curse foreigners (because stream sniping) and swords only affecting foreigners, although knives and bows kill anything you point them at as weapons do. Unnecessary inconsistency, we saw what it did, and it wasn't great. We can have a better solution than this. I don't mind when we end up there, if ever, but I will keep pointing at things as long as they keep affecting my gaming experience negatively. Others have their freedom to decide what they think of my pointing.

Mindless killing inside families is fair: you can curse them, you can fight equally with them. I can't say that with swords, which is frustrating (sword juggle, hit stacking, superiority when using against foreigners, can't disarm peacefully).

Last edited by MultiLife (2019-07-11 11:49:10)

Grim_Arbiter · 2019-07-11 17:40:40

Tarr wrote:

How much of the negativity is truly unwarranted though? The fifteen years of experience comment came off as telling the community we're a bunch of idiots who cannot understand how or why things are the way they are. Jason comes up with a wonky idea at 3 am and decides that would be a weeks content (fences) with people repeatedly telling him they're a bad idea. Lo and behold, they were a bad idea and better yet he leaves them bad because that's how he likes them. Jason then comes up with the idea of language and swords with people being iffy on language (was a good update after the second week) and people directly telling him swords are a terrible addition. Lo and behold he purposely makes swords busted to try to get people to use fences.
I understand not holding him accountable when something accidentally broken comes into the game (stacking carrots, infinite bananas/mangoes, the first butter knife incident) but it doesn't take a genius for people to step back and see something isn't right. I had to spend a week and make a video of me shitting all over the fun of random people to get him to even take a LOOK at war swords in the first place. I killed ninety players that week. Ninety different times people had one guy come to their village and just massacre everyone or nearly everyone for no other reason than to try to get Jason to understand this was not okay.
I am all for praising Jason whenever he releases a good update (check news threads where it was a good week) but at the same time I'm just as happy to tell him what is wrong with an update. I just want to see OHOL become the best game it can possibly be at the end of the day, it's why I've made sure to out any sort of the dozens of bugs I've found ranging from the mundane (making talking tools, freaking out the game client through flight, and different animals leaving invisible wounds) to the absolute gamebreaking (Latest snowball bug, shooting through solid objects, duplicating items, deleting all sorts of items, etc.) Hell I even reported the twin thing I was abusing to play in the same city repeatedly, the perfect temperature server, and even the last coordinate leak. I want ohol to be great, not just something I bitch about because of bad changes to the game.

The unwarranted part is exactly what you stated with the accidentally broken part. I've even been guilty of being pretty mad at him for those accidents, but not the ones most people were the most pissed at him over. The one that irked me was when stackable items were missing with the "category" sprite and when the colored clothes went through something similar. It showed me both times (the first bug was actually one of my first lives) that he doesn't get everything right the first time, but he's not doing it intentionally.

While the the sword was broken in the sense of concept, it wasn't broken as an actual physical thing in game he can see and go "oops". The sword originally worked exactly like he wanted it to and worked how he programmed it, albeit butter knife v2. It was still accidentally broken, but not in a way he can really test.

Tarr you're the one who showed him it was broken conceptually, but that responsibility shouldn't have fallen squarely on you. There should have been more people other than you making and sending him evidence of something he can't see right away, instead of just shouting. We had you and Michael Punch, who might have even been you. Same goes for the snowball wound healing and snowball stack killing.

Unlike all the shouters (I'm in this group even) you actually walk the walk and present evidence. Most of those people wouldn't make a github report, let alone record the problem. That's why Jason and pretty much most of this fourm value your opinion more than the rest of us in the peanut gallery. I don't see you as just a player but also being in the credits as a bug tester.

I do think it's unfair to assume certain things without asking, like you mentioned with the scrapping.

The one thing Jason won't do is lie to you. He's gonna tell you straight up if something is intentional or missed. The more we assume the more that might get missed.

Edit* tarr most of my original post doesn't apply to you because of how you do contribute to this product. I mean we all contribute in a small sense by being on here and playing, but we're not putting in even a quarter of the work you have.

Last edited by Grim_Arbiter (2019-07-11 18:12:34)

The_Anabaptist · 2019-07-11 19:28:46

Positivity / Negativity by players to Jason are both a red herring.

I remember early in my ownership, I would create forum posts happily suggesting additions to the game. Some of these others thought well enough to copy them to the Reddit forum, as I do not post there. Others people have thought well enough to repeat in these forums as suggestions repeatedly since them.

The result? The same as if I would have had if I had typed nothing.

I've also been one of those that has been frustrated with aspects of the game. Raving about it, cajoling others to do likewise, pleading with Jason to hear me out.

The result? The same as if I would have had if I had typed nothing.

I'm not worried about building Jason up, or hurting his feelings. Because I no longer believe that I'm heard by him at all, or ever have been.

-----

You can type whatever you want in these forums, it doesn't matter. The only hope of maybe being heard is to type a review either in steam or on the official page and hope your positive or negative vote will be read by potential future customers and as a result coaxes Jason to do things the same or differently from the direction things are going now.

The_Anabaptist

pein · 2019-07-12 02:22:38

he isnt perfect, its far from it
which is ok, just when he is bragging while writing those things, sounds quite hypocritical
he makes coding errors thats fine, he fixes it, he makes questionable decisions and most of them doesnt work out, that makes the game more like a beta version
but sometimes his flawed logic, his stubbornness is what prevents him from making the game better
so when he says that no one could give any decent idea on how the game should be, well thats quite a big lie

i had a few ideas implemented and was quite simple stuff but makes sense
i do not wish to make the game too different
i just wnted to contribute
he can just as well ignore it
but rubbign in peoples face that they are shit and their opinion is shit is not how he should proceed

people got ideas cause they like the game and want to help it, leave a mark, contribute
the "meta" is made because some people figure out a way to do things more optimally

no one said theat you should do this and that and nothing confirms that you are on right path
there is no xp or huge advantages for doing stuff in this game
people just do it cause they talk outside the game and realize good ideas

there is not much gameplay benefit on planting bushes nicely or randomly
its more like psychological benefit

sure you make an early pen that helps the town and making fences too early wont
making a building while no water is bad but making all tools is good overall, leaving some soil for further generations its not roleplay, it actually helps others

the most fun part of online games is the community, even shit graphics are forgivable when the game has a good balanced gameplay
sure it wnt hurt, but the focus is on interactions
people who spend their time with the game are the real heros
and the fanbase, the forumers and discord people are the elite

quite weird how he expects that everyoen will read update notes and keep up with nerfs on iron and soil, so the game is challanging
in meantime he doesnt really care about the opinions of the people who can take thsoe challanges

he's weirdo and thats good and bad
a lot of unconventionl solutions and unique game design
but same time a lot of bad choices on some parts of the game, like no moderators ingame and sluggish processing of feedback cause he refuses to work with others

some of his "visions" are just pure laziness like having no PVP system and just intention based stabbing around, and player "moderated" punishments
dead content and major changes same time and half ass solutions to unexisting problems while game breakign bugs exist

good example how he made boxes destroyable cause some people complained about getting trapped while that wasnt an issue in 99.99% of games but the solution destroyed a good ingame item
or how he said buildings are worth now, while it was optimized on 1x5 size rooms

i do not want to be a dick im just being honest, i appreciate the good things too
but then who cares about my opinion on things that already work?

i think that the people with long playtime got some valuable insight on player perspective of the game and their ideas could be listened

btw, only 7% of the games on stema is profitable
now there are games outside steam and there are people who dont care much about profit for their work, and there are big companies who got thousands of devs working on their games
its still impressive that someone can stay above the water alone
so i apprecite his work, we got a more direct relation with him than with major game makers
like generally the support is just repeating stuff they dont understand and the people who make the game wont even really care much about opinions
and the features are not decided on balance, more on popularity and the end result is quite bad over time, the focus is on money and less work
we got a nice retro style game with 2d view, and interesting concept, i just wish it was more focus on the balancing and good solutions which make sense gameplay wise

i guess it wasnt meant to be played forever so he can oprimize it toward the average gamers
so if they survive the first 50-100 hours they got their fun until 3-400 hours and then hop on updates

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-07-10 20:17:13

Quick jab at the negativity.

#2 2019-07-10 21:10:53

Re: Quick jab at the negativity.

#3 2019-07-10 21:35:24

Re: Quick jab at the negativity.

#4 2019-07-11 01:07:07

Re: Quick jab at the negativity.

#5 2019-07-11 01:35:38

Re: Quick jab at the negativity.

#6 2019-07-11 03:07:29

Re: Quick jab at the negativity.

#7 2019-07-11 08:31:43

Re: Quick jab at the negativity.

#8 2019-07-11 08:42:44

Re: Quick jab at the negativity.

#9 2019-07-11 11:20:19

Re: Quick jab at the negativity.

#10 2019-07-11 17:40:40

Re: Quick jab at the negativity.

#11 2019-07-11 19:28:46

Re: Quick jab at the negativity.

#12 2019-07-12 02:22:38

Re: Quick jab at the negativity.

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