It's kindof a funny story

jasonrohrer · 2019-08-11 16:40:26

I'm away on vacation.

I left my YubiKey at Frank Lantz's house a few days ago. So... I'm kinda locked out of my email and the game servers and everything else.

I see that there's a pretty serious crisis. I haven't gotten a chance to find out exactly what is going wrong.... but 12000 years is a long time for one arc. I'm guessing you're out of iron except for a few diesel mines, and maybe those have been griefed.

The problem: for whatever reason, you NEVER got more than 35 families, so the auto reset never happened. I guess that's not a good reset criteria. Clearly, (with all the different criteria that I tried that didn't work), finding a good reset criteria is not easy.

I also slowed down life token allocation, so maybe that's the main problem here. Perhaps everyone is dying, but they run out of tokens before we hit the 35-fam limit.

ANYWAY.... I'm currently trying to navigate a YubiKey-free way of logging into the server to manually restart it, through the Linode control panel. I can't remember if that's possible or not (obviously, if it is possible, it makes YubiKey irrelevant as a security measure, eh?).

And on Wednesday, I'll be back in possession of my YubiKey (Frank mailed it to my parents' house, which is the next stop on our trip). So worst case, 2 more days of nonsense.

Meanwhile, vacation has been nice!

CatX · 2019-08-11 17:25:59

Newest OHOL challenge for the community:
Can we end the world before Jason resets the server? Best case, we have 2 days to accomplish it. But uh-oh, we might have less time! This will take some serious cooperation skills everyone!

bunny · 2019-08-11 17:33:50

We tried hard and believed in ourselves and we managed to get this far....

Let's burn it to the ground now. DOWN WITH THE TREES!

jasonrohrer · 2019-08-11 17:34:00

Okay, I'm in!

YubiKey actually protects the main web server, even through Linode control panel, but not the secondary servers. This actually makes some sense in terms of security (the beating heart of the operation is protected). On the other hand, with access to the Linode control panel, you could reboot the main web server or reinstall the OS, so anything is really possible there... but it's pretty hard to "sneak in" under my nose without my YubiKey.

Anyway, looking at the logs, average age is 24, which looks normal, there's a normal number of Eves (4), normal number of moms (7), 10 families, etc. So yeah, no failure condition triggered, obviously.... hmmm

Anyway, I'll reset it now manually.

CatX · 2019-08-11 17:36:00

jasonrohrer wrote:

Okay, I'm in!
Anyway, I'll reset it now manually.

Yay!

Dodge · 2019-08-11 17:36:25

Actually there is still some iron and plenty of oil, yes most engines have been heavily griefed, but one of the main issue now is fire because almost all the junipers have been cut down, also some other issues, reset condition isn't good

Happy to hear about your vacation

You can join us on server in 1h30 to try a restart https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7644

edit: nvm seems like you solved it

Last edited by Dodge (2019-08-11 17:37:07)

jasonrohrer · 2019-08-11 17:41:24

Okay, it's done....

jasonrohrer · 2019-08-11 17:49:00

I don't have access to the life token server to check the stats or adjust the settings there (will in two days).

However, I could block bigserver2 from using life tokens.

I'm not sure how big of a problem the life tokens actually were, though...

Let's see if I can make a graph remotely of the latest family log data.

Amon · 2019-08-11 18:02:16

If the eve window still existed...
The opposite auto reset contidion could've been in use.
If amount of family diversity is lower than 2...or 3.
This would also be easier to trigger by players...by eradicating bloodlines, while also keeping murder at bay or goodwill between towns if the family amount drops too low to be comfortable if the world is idillic.

Imagine the apocalypse anounced by heavy first by boredom, stagnancy, starvation and finally bloodshed?

Should not be triggable if total population is too low.

jasonrohrer · 2019-08-11 18:02:31

Okay, here's the graph of the whole arc....

Not seeing anything obvious.

Dodge · 2019-08-11 18:21:38

Yeah the life tokens haven't been an issue, there's a lot of good players that can carry others and make the best even in the worst conditions.

Issue is mostly due to constant griefing of important ressources, blocking entrances of buildings and putting engines in them for example, cutting all the junipers etc, which makes doing anything a constant battle against potential griefers that can easily ruin everything in a very short time.

DestinyCall · 2019-08-11 18:32:43

I'm seeing a steady decline in total player count over the course of the arch. And a daily cycle of player population fluctuation that probably is due to time of day.

The EVE/FAMILY graph is hard to read, but I think the important part would be times when the number of Eves exceeds the number of players in families. Most of the time, Eves are lower, but there are some points where they flip for a while.

The average age is a problem, because Eves skew this number badly during Eve Hell. If players are dying too fast, the average age will trend toward higher numbers because there will be more Eves and fewer infants being born. Is this Average Age at Death for all players or something else? Could it be updated to remove Eves from the calculation? This would give a better idea of family health/survival. Is there a way to chart Death by Old Age over time? How about Death by Murder? And Death by Bear?

Perhaps the failure condition could be when Death by Bear exceeds 100 per hour.

Spoonwood · 2019-08-11 18:34:56

jasonrohrer wrote:

I'm guessing you're out of iron except for a few diesel mines, and maybe those have been griefed.

No. From the reports I've heard it's mostly been griefing. That should make sense, since players wanting town walls is just a consequence of griefing being too high. This also makes for the second set of weeks now where players put up walls because of greifing. I didn't play on the main servers either set of weeks, but both had player count dropoffs. And both had plenty of complaints from players about griefing. So, make no mistake, the concept of town walls as something that players should *need* is NOT good for this game. It's something driving people away, because it dovetails with griefing.

Someone posted a picture to summarize how bad the griefing (and note, not all of the structures blocking exits are newcomen towers):

FluxBB bbcode test

Dodge · 2019-08-11 18:39:50

@Spoonwood you're mistaking fence with walls and raiding with an intent as opposed to pure griefing.

Of course if there's different families close to each other that can potentially invade you then you need protection, the issue of griefing is a separate one.

Nice photos though.

DestinyCall · 2019-08-11 18:52:56

The town fences only exist because griefing has risen to a level that is almost unbearable (or extra-bearful when the griefers bring a lot of bears).

I'd like to see a more comprehensive building update that addresses some of the current issues with normal buildings and real walls, instead of being forced to use magic stick fences to slow down an unending onslaught of feral eves. I've never been satisfied by the way that property fences were implemented in-game - from the beginning, it felt like a solution in search of a problem. The current state of the game gives property fences a "purpose" but the toxicity level is just way too high to be sustainable. Something needs to be done to effectively deal with the endless griefing before the community is permanently damaged. Socially-focused players are not going to stick around forever, hoping for positive change.

jasonrohrer · 2019-08-11 18:55:29

Eves DO NOT push the average age up.

That graph subtracts 14 from every Eve in the mix before factoring them in.

Spoonwood · 2019-08-11 18:59:08

Dodge wrote:

@Spoonwood you're mistaking fence with walls and raiding with an intent as opposed to pure griefing.

Both walls and fences block movement. So, I don't see the relevant difference.

No, I'm not mistaking raiding with griefing. The 'nice photos' you referred to don't show evidence of raiding, but rather griefing.

Spoonwood · 2019-08-11 19:03:03

DestinyCall wrote:

The current state of the game gives property fences a "purpose" but the toxicity level is just way too high to be sustainable.

The same thing happened after the 'come together' disaster, which took weeks before it got undone. The whole concept of towns being close together, or any other means by which town walls/fences become desireable, makes for a serious problem/deficiency in game vision.

DestinyCall · 2019-08-11 19:05:51

Dodge wrote:

@Spoonwood you're mistaking fence with walls and raiding with an intent as opposed to pure griefing.
Of course if there's different families close to each other that can potentially invade you then you need protection, the issue of griefing is a separate one.
Nice photos though.

Every one of those photos document actual griefing. Locked buildings filled with important supplies. Immovable objects built to prevent access. Cars and other items locked inside blocked rooms. Sheep slaughtered across the map.

This is not "raiding with intent" unless the intent is ruining the fun of others by stealing valuable supplies and then locking them away forever. That is griefing, plain and simple.

I've also seen a lot of intentional iron wasting - making a bunch of dead-end objects to use up all the iron. And teleporting small items outside of the rift - like iron or engines or other things. And methodically destroying all sheep and wild mouflons, chopping down all maple trees/juniper trees/milkweed/squash/carrots/wheat/etc.

The constant genocidal raiding is emotionally-draining and largely initiated by griefers. Don't pretend that this is all just normal gameplay where one village launches an attack on another village to secure resources. It is not. It is a handful of organized griefers who repeatedly attack existing villages to purposefully destroy them. But intentional resource-destruction is a more subtle and even more damaging griefer activity which is also running rampant.

Dodge · 2019-08-11 19:06:08

Spoonwood wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
The current state of the game gives property fences a "purpose" but the toxicity level is just way too high to be sustainable.
The same thing happened after the 'come together' disaster, which took weeks before it got undone. The whole concept of towns being close together, or any other means by which town walls/fences become desireable, makes for a serious problem/deficiency in game vision.

So you're saying villages should be as far as possible from each other and never have any interaction, how is that interesting?

Yes the previous examples in photos are griefing, but saying that the fences/walls wathever are only to prevent griefing is erroneous.

pein · 2019-08-11 19:11:27

i think the tree planting tiemrs are too high to motivate people to do it but it's quite important to plant trees or the good ones are cut anyway
it's not like people grief them, it's just they need firewood and wont go more than 60 tiles so if there are no good players who gather the firewood, mapple and other trees got cut anyway

i know it cant be an instant but the requirements are high enough that you cant plant treesright away
town has to have peace, some soil, water, shears, you got to be alive till the next watering and even f you live to 60 you wont see it grow
i would say a total of 45-55 minutes would be better
like plant a tree before 15, then you water at 30 and grows out at 45-55
at least for pine trees which relaistically grow faster but ingame as well their main purpose is to become boards and firewood
as far as i know only NÉ town planted trees, 6 mapple, 6 poplar
then few more mapples while the original ones were cut (while just a tiny bit further there were 2 swamps full of firewood)

i tried to keep at bay with pine trees and that was 4-5 hours where only some people cut mapple to make shoes but overall solved the problem
but i had to go back each and every life and half of the time was fenced or people were offensive

basically the people who live an avereage length of 42-47 minutes are like top 10 so the expectation to plant trees that you never see is quite hard to accomplish and asking othrs to water it generally never works

the newcommen blocking is quite annoying, also the high cost of removing stone walls, could be cheap but slow

the fence removal is too complex for average players and if you are locked in, you cant afford to have too much paper and kindlingto waste, or making all 10 keys and waste a steel each

then the big question: should engines be removable from both mines and wells or should stay on both of em
cause this inconsistency ruins quite a lot of engines made
people install the engines on wells nearby other wells, which is clearly a sign that they just want to remove it from iron production, tis not really because they got oil and need water, actually i think only Elderio made 4-5 engines, then it was installed on NÉ town, then there was made a few more rubebr and engines, then the new fortresstown left side of it produced iron, kerosene and engines.
most locations who had engines, never ever made rubber

Dodge · 2019-08-11 19:13:51

DestinyCall wrote:

Dodge wrote:
@Spoonwood you're mistaking fence with walls and raiding with an intent as opposed to pure griefing.
Of course if there's different families close to each other that can potentially invade you then you need protection, the issue of griefing is a separate one.
Nice photos though.
Every one of those photos document actual griefing. Locked buildings filled with important supplies. Immovable objects built to prevent access. Cars and other items locked inside blocked rooms. Sheep slaughtered across the map.
This is not "raiding with intent" unless the intent is ruining the fun of others by stealing valuable supplies and then locking them away forever. That is griefing, plain and simple.
I've also seen a lot of intentional iron wasting - making a bunch of dead-end objects to use up all the iron. And teleporting small items outside of the rift - like iron or engines or other things. And methodically destroying all sheep and wild mouflons, chopping down all maple trees/juniper trees/milkweed/squash/carrots/wheat/etc.
The constant genocidal raiding is emotionally-draining and largely initiated by griefers. Don't pretend that this is all just normal gameplay where one village launches an attack on another village to secure resources. It is not. It is a handful of organized griefers who repeatedly attack existing villages to purposefully destroy them. But intentional resource-destruction is a more subtle and even more damaging griefer activity which is also running rampant.

You're mistaking me, yes in the photos above it's obvious griefing.

The difference with raiding with intent and pure griefing is simple.

One as an intent, a story behind it ( "We raided this village for their engine because our town has oil but is out of iron and our lineage is going to die, every time i tried communicating with them they were hostile, so we had to do it")

This creates a greater and long term story between the two families, maybe they will come back to get the engine, maybe a peaceful arrangement will be made or some form of agreement or trading, offering protection etc.

As opposed to "lololol i just took the engine an locked it behind irremovable objects, and i killed random people passing by, i'm so pro just git gud"

One is potentially interesting the other is the one we want to fix as much as possible and have better ways to deal with.

Last edited by Dodge (2019-08-11 19:14:44)

DestinyCall · 2019-08-11 19:18:45

Dodge wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
DestinyCall wrote:
The current state of the game gives property fences a "purpose" but the toxicity level is just way too high to be sustainable.
The same thing happened after the 'come together' disaster, which took weeks before it got undone. The whole concept of towns being close together, or any other means by which town walls/fences become desireable, makes for a serious problem/deficiency in game vision.
So you're saying villages should be as far as possible from each other and never have any interaction, how is that interesting?
Yes the previous examples in photos are griefing, but saying that the fences/walls wathever are only to prevent griefing is erroneous.

We build the fences to keep out the extremely high number of sword griefers and feral eves. Not because neighboring villages will organize and launch raids on our village, but because griefers have become organized and attack any village without provocation. If there was an effective way to deal with griefers, the external threat would ramp way down. Without a high level of threat, the effort required to construct and maintain a town-sized property fence would be directed somewhere else and many villages would go back to being wall-less.

So yes ... we build the walls to keep out the griefers. Not because our village is too close other villages but because the griefers are too close to our villages.

If some things change, we might some day have stable villages close to each other that DO launch organized raids on other villages. But I do not think that is an accurate reflection of the current game state.

Twisted · 2019-08-11 19:21:18

Thank you for the reset, Jason. That arc went on for far too long. I think one of the reasons we haven't hit the family limit is because there's just not enough players to get up to 35 different families. Even if there was 0 food whatsoever there would never be enough people to spawn 35 Eves.

I'd wager that the reason for the declining player average is not solely due to mass griefing (although that's definitely a factor), it's because lives in the rift are all very samey. I played a lot less this week specifically because of that.

Pre-rift you'd never know what kind of life you'd have, but post-rift (with the exception of the first ~10 or so hours) there's only one type of life - you spawn in a big fenced-off town with plenty of resources and all the tech, and said town is being attacked both from the inside by sheep griefers and from the outside by wandering Eves. It's not really a unique situation generator anymore when you know exactly what's going to happen before you even spawn in.

Spoonwood · 2019-08-11 19:26:26

Dodge wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
DestinyCall wrote:
The current state of the game gives property fences a "purpose" but the toxicity level is just way too high to be sustainable.
The same thing happened after the 'come together' disaster, which took weeks before it got undone. The whole concept of towns being close together, or any other means by which town walls/fences become desireable, makes for a serious problem/deficiency in game vision.
So you're saying villages should be as far as possible from each other and never have any interaction, how is that interesting?
Yes the previous examples in photos are griefing, but saying that the fences/walls wathever are only to prevent griefing is erroneous.

I didn't say that fences/walls are the only way to prevent griefing.

I didn't say that villages should be as far away as possible.

However, villages should not be so close that griefing by town outsiders becomes so easy.

A 700x700 rift clearly makes it so that griefing by town outsiders is easy, and it resulted in an easily discernible drop in the playerbase, so it's a flawed concept.

Also, it does come as more interesting to build towns up than to fend off outsiders. So, it would be more interesting to have towns as far away as possible from each other, because it makes so that each town has to come as self-sufficient, and has players *interested* in building up a town and maintaining it. It's interesting to have towns far apart, because you can kind of measure your own progress more easily that way. It's also interesting, because you have the ability to do that instead of worrying about griefers trying to kill people, destroy items, block off oil rigs, make multiple diesel water pumps near each other, etc. In other words, such would be interesting, because instead of encouraging that people have to fear outsiders and cope with that fear, such a system would enable more creativity in the playerbase. So, that's how it's more interesting.

One Hour One Life Forums

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It's kindof a funny story

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