Hoarders, and Sweaty, Organised Metagaming

schmloo · 2019-08-12 05:26:06

The start of this arc went as expected — a complete shitshow of killing with bows, hunting geese so arrows can’t be made to defend from bears, luring said-bears into camps, families killing any outsider they meet out of paranoia. All because griefing is tolerated in the game.

My problem is with the small community of people who raid and hoard iron, to make more swords, to kill and raid more iron and clothes, in cycle, day in, day out. No one has had a break from it. I’m not completely sure it’s understood how much they’re damaging the game. There’s no point in collecting statistics if the data is going to be greatly affected by certain people intentionally working to sabotage what goes on within the rift. The rift will never get an actual chance at fair success or failure because this certain group of people won’t let it. Last arc I just tolerated it after killing bear after bear, then giving up and going to another server. I hoped this arc would be different... not sure why, I thought maybe some of them had had enough. Clearly the mindset of including “griefers” as an antagonist role in the arc isn’t working, and is only serving to push newer players away until the game gets an irreparable reputation where there are no more new players.

Sorry if this turns out to be a wall of text. Much of it is just ranting but I hope I’ve raised or reemerged some valid points that need to be addressed.

schmloo · 2019-08-12 05:27:14

Oh and I forgot to mention, this group doesn’t keep kids unless they are “approved”.

FryinggPan · 2019-08-12 05:44:55

ur funny. haha

OminousBladeBlank · 2019-08-12 06:35:07

If it can be griefed, it will. At least now Jason can be tasked with fixing it. Make feathers sustainable, make killing bears easier or waking them harder. Honestly, why are bears even a thing anymore? Just make wolves persue people or whatever. Why do we need bears?

DestinyCall · 2019-08-12 06:47:03

I'm worried that Jason will not see the problem. He expressed concerns that the last arch must have been too easy since it took us too long to crash despite all the griefing. So far his response seems to be "remove wild food" rather than "address rampant griefing".

But maybe he just needs a little more time to process. He is technically still on vacation and might not have realized all that has been going on during his absence.

Dodge · 2019-08-12 08:03:34

+1 for less bear caves, feathers from domestic goose and hungry work for all trees including juniper

-1 for the constant dramatic tone (most of the major issues are going to be fixed at some point)

DestinyCall · 2019-08-12 08:42:23

I wish I still had your faith, Dodge.

Dodge · 2019-08-12 09:36:11

DestinyCall wrote:

I wish I still had your faith, Dodge.

it's not really faith but logic, if he doesn't fix these issues the game will never be "successful", so he has to eventually.

Keep in mind that appart from behing passionate it's also his livelihood, you have to pay the bills some way at the end of the day.

Also he has no reason to not fix these issues, does he want the game to fail, or players to be unhappy with the game?

But you cant make everyone happy, some players would be happy with a farming simulator whith parenting, but if it's not how he wants his game he's not going to make it that way.

Yes the current "meta" heavily facilitates griefing, but it's just temporary, the game continuously changes, improves and fixes issues.

Constantly complaining isn't going to make it change faster, but maybe it's a zoomer thing

Spoonwood · 2019-08-12 09:55:09

Dodge wrote:

+1 for less bear caves, feathers from domestic goose and hungry work for all trees including juniper
-1 for the constant dramatic tone (most of the major issues are going to be fixed at some point)

Jason may solve some particular small set of issues, but won't really address core problems. This game has been on consistent decline in terms of playerbase, and there exist a small handful of good updates since December. Most of the technology wasn't useful when introduced. An apoclaypse for no reason, which were never consistent with people playing for their lineage. Then we had swords. People coming together and leading to griefer Eves. People complained, rightfully, about such as not consistent with a game about parenting and civlization *building* (at least raidos were compatible with building, even though they were NOT about parenting in the sense of making better lives for in game children). The genetic score system had something to it, but not much.

Oh, and Jason had already seen evidence that bringing people together so that towns could easily get found by Eves lead to mass griefing. Yet, he implemented a system that made such even more likely to happen. People told, AND SHOWED, him that the problem was griefing. And he responded by insisting that the problem could be solved by some time constraint, indicating that he didn't get the problem.

The whole rift idea also indicates a problem, since it limits potential growth. The finite map idea never made a lick of sense, because of that limiting of potential player growth.

The game has continually declined in terms of player count: https://steamcharts.com/app/595690#All (even the green there will change shortly due to the recent dropoff). And it dropped drastically recently:

http://northcountrynotes.org/latestGraph2.png

And instead of finding such sad, or taking such as a moment needed for self-reflection, Jason just laughed off such a precipitous drop.

On top of that, Jason should have hired help long ago, and I doubt he'll do that at any point in time.

And -1 for a positive attitude. There is no cause for optimism when you have consistent negative information coming in (see above). At least not with serious change that caters to players' preferences. Something that Jason has repeatedly spit in the face of, for example, with his reluctance to implement a choice screen for players, showing that he disrespects player's making their own choices.

Dodge wrote:

Keep in mind that appart from behing passionate it's also his livelihood, you have to pay the bills some way at the end of the day.

Jason wrongfully believes that he's the greatest game designer ever and has only said that he will continue development to the end of 2019. He just does what he did before. He just lives off of the proceeds of his last game and makes a new one, anticipating the next one will work out well for him financially. Doing that may even interest him more, as he certainly doesn't like listening to opinions of his playerbase as he has repeatedly made clear, and making a new game doesn't have a playerbase to listen to. No, there is no reason to believe that Jason has to fix the game with respect to core issues.

And he's probably not interested in doing such either, because it would mean that he would have to give up on concepts as viable, recognize inconsistencies in the game, listen to the playerbase, respect their preferences, and no doubt hire help.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-08-12 10:01:15)

Spoonwood · 2019-08-12 10:09:53

Dodge wrote:

Yes the current "meta" heavily facilitates griefing, but it's just temporary, the game continuously changes, improves and fixes issues.

Jason's previous game from this report encouraged griefing: https://www.engadget.com/2013/08/14/fre … ieving-to/

The reviewer there even said this:

Beau Hindman wrote:

The fact that players have no choice in who they are or what they are doing limits the game's impact.

So, no, your belief doesn't have much to support it.

Also, your comment about the game continuously improving is positively contradicted by this update. Positively contradicted by the rapid decline in the playerbase that happened. Positively contradicted by that large pattern of red in people playing it on Steam. And positively contradicted by the ratio of updates which have discouraged people from playing for their lineages to the number of updates which encouraged people to play for their lineages.

JonySky · 2019-08-12 10:25:21

Spoonwood wrote:

Dodge wrote:
Yes the current "meta" heavily facilitates griefing, but it's just temporary, the game continuously changes, improves and fixes issues.
Jason's previous game from this report encouraged griefing: https://www.engadget.com/2013/08/14/fre … ieving-to/
The reviewer there even said this:
Beau Hindman wrote:
The fact that players have no choice in who they are or what they are doing limits the game's impact.
So, no, your belief doesn't have much to support it.
Also, your comment about the game continuously improving is positively contradicted by this update. Positively contradicted by the rapid decline in the playerbase that happened. Positively contradicted by that large pattern of red in people playing it on Steam. And positively contradicted by the ratio of updates which have discouraged people from playing for their lineages to the number of updates which encouraged people to play for their lineages.

and for the number of people who are dedicated to destroying the entire map ... (cutting junipers, killing geese, freeing bears, enclosing resources, killing players, blocking access, stealing resources, etc ... etc ...)

Dodge, I really like your optimism and I really appreciate that way of thinking ... but OHOL needs a change and that change is not a box to force us to interact with other players

I really like OHOL ... but I will not be for 30 minutes of my REAL life to make a fire, I prefer to go to play another game more fun than this.
and this is just what people are doing now ... going to other games.

Last edited by JonySky (2019-08-12 11:09:26)

Dodge · 2019-08-12 11:05:13

Spoonwood wrote:

Dodge wrote:
Yes the current "meta" heavily facilitates griefing, but it's just temporary, the game continuously changes, improves and fixes issues.
Jason's previous game from this report encouraged griefing: https://www.engadget.com/2013/08/14/fre … ieving-to/
The reviewer there even said this:
Beau Hindman wrote:
The fact that players have no choice in who they are or what they are doing limits the game's impact.
So, no, your belief doesn't have much to support it.
Also, your comment about the game continuously improving is positively contradicted by this update. Positively contradicted by the rapid decline in the playerbase that happened. Positively contradicted by that large pattern of red in people playing it on Steam. And positively contradicted by the ratio of updates which have discouraged people from playing for their lineages to the number of updates which encouraged people to play for their lineages.

Spoon one of the main reason the numbers are declining is because there was steam release which pumped up the numbers, now they are steadily declining, but you're right people are leaving and the retention rate isn't that good (it's not terrible though some other games are way worse, i highly doubt that OHOL will ever be a dead game like there is so many on steam) and that's because the game is not good enough yet to retain new players and there are still major issues in the game (like yes griefing for example).

Ideally the game would grow instead of staying at about 50-100 players

But constantly saying that we should go back in the past, remove this or that is not going to make us move forward and really improve the game and deal with the underlying core issues.

CatX · 2019-08-12 11:40:07

Dodge wrote:

But constantly saying that we should go back in the past, remove this or that is not going to make us move forward and really improve the game and deal with the underlying core issues.

I don't feel the Rift is improving the game.
Maybe tweaking it will make it better, but at some point one should consider following Norwegian Mountain Code 8: Don’t be ashamed to turn around. https://english.dnt.no/the-norwegian-mountain-code/

My impression is that the main obstacle to the game is Jason's belief that griefing benefits the game. It will never be possible to stop griefing, but precisely because of that the game mechanics should discourage griefing as much as possible. Right now it feels like the game accommodates griefers. Even before the Rift, it did feel a bit like OHOL was a game for people too cowardly to play real pvp games...

Last edited by CatX (2019-08-12 11:40:33)

WumboJumbo · 2019-08-12 14:46:11

Spoonwood wrote:

Dodge wrote:
+1 for less bear caves, feathers from domestic goose and hungry work for all trees including juniper
-1 for the constant dramatic tone (most of the major issues are going to be fixed at some point)
Jason may solve some particular small set of issues, but won't really address core problems. This game has been on consistent decline in terms of playerbase, and there exist a small handful of good updates since December. Most of the technology wasn't useful when introduced. An apoclaypse for no reason, which were never consistent with people playing for their lineage. Then we had swords. People coming together and leading to griefer Eves. People complained, rightfully, about such as not consistent with a game about parenting and civlization *building* (at least raidos were compatible with building, even though they were NOT about parenting in the sense of making better lives for in game children). The genetic score system had something to it, but not much.
Oh, and Jason had already seen evidence that bringing people together so that towns could easily get found by Eves lead to mass griefing. Yet, he implemented a system that made such even more likely to happen. People told, AND SHOWED, him that the problem was griefing. And he responded by insisting that the problem could be solved by some time constraint, indicating that he didn't get the problem.
The whole rift idea also indicates a problem, since it limits potential growth. The finite map idea never made a lick of sense, because of that limiting of potential player growth.
The game has continually declined in terms of player count: https://steamcharts.com/app/595690#All (even the green there will change shortly due to the recent dropoff). And it dropped drastically recently:
http://northcountrynotes.org/latestGraph2.png
And instead of finding such sad, or taking such as a moment needed for self-reflection, Jason just laughed off such a precipitous drop.
On top of that, Jason should have hired help long ago, and I doubt he'll do that at any point in time.
And -1 for a positive attitude. There is no cause for optimism when you have consistent negative information coming in (see above). At least not with serious change that caters to players' preferences. Something that Jason has repeatedly spit in the face of, for example, with his reluctance to implement a choice screen for players, showing that he disrespects player's making their own choices.
Dodge wrote:
Keep in mind that appart from behing passionate it's also his livelihood, you have to pay the bills some way at the end of the day.
Jason wrongfully believes that he's the greatest game designer ever and has only said that he will continue development to the end of 2019. He just does what he did before. He just lives off of the proceeds of his last game and makes a new one, anticipating the next one will work out well for him financially. Doing that may even interest him more, as he certainly doesn't like listening to opinions of his playerbase as he has repeatedly made clear, and making a new game doesn't have a playerbase to listen to. No, there is no reason to believe that Jason has to fix the game with respect to core issues.
And he's probably not interested in doing such either, because it would mean that he would have to give up on concepts as viable, recognize inconsistencies in the game, listen to the playerbase, respect their preferences, and no doubt hire help.

I find it funny that we didn’t really pass the Iron Age and that all the stuff shown in the official trailer for the game will probably never see the light of day. Didn’t Jason say he’d continue to develop the game until at least 2021? Why couldn’t he live up to that statement?

Last edited by WumboJumbo (2019-08-12 14:46:56)

JonySky · 2019-08-12 15:35:13

WumboJumbo wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
Dodge wrote:
+1 for less bear caves, feathers from domestic goose and hungry work for all trees including juniper
-1 for the constant dramatic tone (most of the major issues are going to be fixed at some point)
Jason may solve some particular small set of issues, but won't really address core problems. This game has been on consistent decline in terms of playerbase, and there exist a small handful of good updates since December. Most of the technology wasn't useful when introduced. An apoclaypse for no reason, which were never consistent with people playing for their lineage. Then we had swords. People coming together and leading to griefer Eves. People complained, rightfully, about such as not consistent with a game about parenting and civlization *building* (at least raidos were compatible with building, even though they were NOT about parenting in the sense of making better lives for in game children). The genetic score system had something to it, but not much.
Oh, and Jason had already seen evidence that bringing people together so that towns could easily get found by Eves lead to mass griefing. Yet, he implemented a system that made such even more likely to happen. People told, AND SHOWED, him that the problem was griefing. And he responded by insisting that the problem could be solved by some time constraint, indicating that he didn't get the problem.
The whole rift idea also indicates a problem, since it limits potential growth. The finite map idea never made a lick of sense, because of that limiting of potential player growth.
The game has continually declined in terms of player count: https://steamcharts.com/app/595690#All (even the green there will change shortly due to the recent dropoff). And it dropped drastically recently:
http://northcountrynotes.org/latestGraph2.png
And instead of finding such sad, or taking such as a moment needed for self-reflection, Jason just laughed off such a precipitous drop.
On top of that, Jason should have hired help long ago, and I doubt he'll do that at any point in time.
And -1 for a positive attitude. There is no cause for optimism when you have consistent negative information coming in (see above). At least not with serious change that caters to players' preferences. Something that Jason has repeatedly spit in the face of, for example, with his reluctance to implement a choice screen for players, showing that he disrespects player's making their own choices.
Dodge wrote:
Keep in mind that appart from behing passionate it's also his livelihood, you have to pay the bills some way at the end of the day.
Jason wrongfully believes that he's the greatest game designer ever and has only said that he will continue development to the end of 2019. He just does what he did before. He just lives off of the proceeds of his last game and makes a new one, anticipating the next one will work out well for him financially. Doing that may even interest him more, as he certainly doesn't like listening to opinions of his playerbase as he has repeatedly made clear, and making a new game doesn't have a playerbase to listen to. No, there is no reason to believe that Jason has to fix the game with respect to core issues.
And he's probably not interested in doing such either, because it would mean that he would have to give up on concepts as viable, recognize inconsistencies in the game, listen to the playerbase, respect their preferences, and no doubt hire help.
I find it funny that we didn’t really pass the Iron Age and that all the stuff shown in the official trailer for the game will probably never see the light of day. Didn’t Jason say he’d continue to develop the game until at least 2021? Why couldn’t he live up to that statement?

I'm afraid of something else ... that we make an evolutionary leap like the one we did with airplanes or cars ...

We are lighting the fire with 2 sticks, but we can fly and extract oil and water with a diesel engine ... this is what has most damaged the game for me

WalrusesConquer · 2019-08-12 15:38:07

Why can't people just play the darn game jeez

DestinyCall · 2019-08-12 15:42:54

WalrusesConquer wrote:

Why can't people just play the darn game jeez

Well, there are an awful lot of bears, so ....

afreespirit · 2019-08-12 16:45:17

DestinyCall wrote:

WalrusesConquer wrote:
Why can't people just play the darn game jeez
Well, there are an awful lot of bears, so ....

They are now teleporting.

I was recently about 10 tiles from a fence opening, not in a cluttered area and not lagging at all. Suddenly a bear is right on top of me and I'm bitten, killed by hungry grizzly bear /SAD.

Spoonwood · 2019-08-12 17:57:05

Dodge wrote:

Spoon one of the main reason the numbers are declining is because there was steam release which pumped up the numbers, now they are steadily declining ....

It's August 2019. The steam release was last November, 9 months ago. So, it's been plenty of time now. Additionally, games do have increasing numbers after their steam release. So, no, I don't think your claim there holds.

Dodge wrote:

But constantly saying that we should go back in the past, remove this or that is not going to make us move forward and really improve the game and deal with the underlying core issues.

Enabling more player choice wouldn't be going back into the past. It would involve Jason's vision progressing, instead of stagnating with old concepts.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-08-12 17:59:01)

ollj · 2019-08-12 19:22:38

I killed most gese on the map on my own and am in no way affiliated with the southern fortress of discordDome-organized players.
I was never born in it AND got to live. I sure am not a fan of any slave/headhunter roleplay, and usually kill my mother for attempting that.

Noone tolerated my geese-genocides, but its not like they could do anythong against it. I have not noticed anyone else mass-hunting geese, i was very alone on that one.
They sure noticed and chatted about it while it happened (the chatter that you whitness when you get born into a town that you just lured bears into), but they almost all completely failed to act against it.
Its testing a cause and effect scenario: How would everything react to geese slaughter.

Previous arc test was a "what if i connect cities with roads as fast as possible", and it resulted in continuous deaths and raids along the roads, with the most excessive property fenching, ultimately stalling the game to a halt. People could have chosen to use roads more cooperatively there. But ended up locking in horse carts full of clothes in greedy defiance.
This arc test was, what if arrows are not just occasionally rare, but from the start, where bears are most dominant, so that bears and horsecarts would almost never have fto fear ambushes. Also eggs to run out sooner.

My motivation is to get acknowledgement on how imballanced and unfair this game is by design and by some very dumb basic bugs. This of course starts with bears, but the core mechanic already has its issues.
[1 hour lifespan fast forward society mechanic] has a harsh game mechanic contrast to [anonymous reincarnation], that can work while you can easily evade/block conflicts, but this game has null defense/parry and extreme scarcity, so it is a fascist ruled wasteland in less than 6 hours, because the game does not allow for more complex society.

I dont get how people telepathically know anyone elses foreign name instantly, thats just very dumb design, given what the game does with language-learning simulation.
This alone is begging for discord-grief that bypasses ingame anonymity.

Last edited by ollj (2019-08-12 19:59:39)

ollj · 2019-08-12 19:41:20

DestinyCall wrote:

WalrusesConquer wrote:
Why can't people just play the darn game jeez
Well, there are an awful lot of bears, so ....

the bears are an improvement

Villas · 2019-08-12 19:54:03

schmloo wrote:

Oh and I forgot to mention, this group doesn’t keep kids unless they are “approved”.

And then they don’t understand why their village keeps getting raided/griefed later on.
IMHO if they want to play among friends and starve/kill everyone else, why don’t play in a private server, it will be a win-win, they can play among friends an make the utopia they wanted to, while common players would play normally without the frustration of being born to the same mother who doesn’t feed approved babies or being killed because you are walking nearby their utopia.

DestinyCall · 2019-08-12 19:56:26

ollj wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
WalrusesConquer wrote:
Why can't people just play the darn game jeez
Well, there are an awful lot of bears, so ....
the bears are an improvement

Needs more variety. Have you considered breeding wolves?

ollj · 2019-08-12 20:01:37

doggies are not agile enough.

Spoonwood · 2019-08-12 20:56:45

ollj wrote:

I killed most gese on the map on my own and am in no way affiliated with the southern fortress of discordDome-organized players.
I was never born in it AND got to live. I sure am not a fan of any slave/headhunter roleplay, and usually kill my mother for attempting that.

Were I interested in griefing, I probably would have joined you in that effort. It sounds like something that happens mostly away from towns, so getting caught isn't much of an issue, it's simple, and no one likes bears.

Thing is, I don't try to justify sadistic tendencies by griefing and then claiming that it proves the game has flaws. I'd rather do something else with my time.

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Hoarders, and Sweaty, Organised Metagaming

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