Here's the temporary fix so I can get back to vacating

DestinyCall · 2019-08-14 06:56:29

The small size is intentional to force village interaction and to facilitate travel between villages. From the perspective of a road builder, the current size is actually rather large. But you can still traverse it on horseback in a few minutes.

If you make it large enough that there is untouched wilderness for a virgin eve start, then the villages would be so far apart from each other, we would rarely meet and hardly ever build roads to bridge the distance.

I'd like to see what we can do with the rift if there was less griefing, less swordplay, and less resource scarcity. I'd like to see villages given non-violent reasons to interact and establish communication. I'd like to see actual trade between villages and different cultures and building styles develop in different areas of the map. I think it could be possible, but I don't think it will work if resource scarcity and player conflict are the primary focus.

hmrka · 2019-08-14 08:11:36

Villas wrote:

ollj wrote:
praise the bears, the goose genocide and even the slightly organized greedy discordDome, the rift is finally gone.
we can fix some simple old bugs now: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … 364#p71364
It doesn’t make sense, the game is only bad because of bears and discord griefers.
Without them, the rift would be nice, without griefing.
A better solution would be perms banning those griefers, then the rift would be heaven.
I checked server 1 and the rift there is wonderful, without bears nor blocked buildings, mouflons alive, all junipers okay.
The problem isn’t the rift, it’s really good, towns were developing a lot and players were learning high tech stuff, but griefers kept ruining our experience.
Just perna ban ollj and those griefers who came here in the forum laugh at us after griefing and the game will be gutti.

THIS. Jason has to realize there are people griefing only to vent out their frustrations, not for roleplay reasons. Having to kill atleast three griefers every life made me stop playing this shit.

I actually like the rift, I think we just need more punishments for griefers.

jasonrohrer · 2019-08-14 12:33:38

The idea is that resource scarcity is the end of the story, something like 4-5 days in. Maybe half a day of that, before a restart.

Having several days of non-scarcity is enough. Villages can peacefully coexist in times of plenty. Even a single day is a very long time in this game. 80+ generations. It becomes stale after a while, though, if all you have are times of plenty.

To further flesh out the idea, as scarcity starts to creep up, there will be pressure for peaceful and cooperative interactions like trade. No wild milkweed left? Then a milkweed farm becomes very valuable. You're not just going to give your hard-earned milkweed away to some other village. But if they bring you a cart full of iron, maybe you can work something out. This is interesting. There's "time for it," because there's no other way. There's no milkweed left.

Toward the tail end, when scarcity becomes extreme, then things might become more violent. But that's fine, for a short while, as the end of the story. They have a needed resource, and you simply have nothing worth trading to them.

This also creates texture, tension, and interest in the community around the game. If we've been going for 4-5 days, you might want to hop in there for a life and see where things stand. There's something happening. Something to talk about. Something to miss. You wouldn't want to miss it.

And further, once the auto-reset happens at the very end of the story, suddenly there's a new beginning, where anything is possible. Again, this is a moment in the game that you wouldn't want to miss. Everyone's a village founder in that moment. We get a chance to correct the mistakes that we made last time, build more sensible and organized and secure villages, etc.

So that's what I'm shooting for, eventually. I hope you can all see how it would be pretty great if I eventually get it to work like that.

And I hope you can also see how this closely aligns with the "promise" of the game as expressed through the marketing and so on.

It was not clear to me, 15 months ago, exactly what would happen once players were unleashed in this world. How would civilization develop? How long would it take? What would people build collectively? Would it ever need to wipe, or would it just run forever? It became obvious early on that the "endless accumulation dream" wasn't really working, so I made adjustments (Eve spiral, etc.) to make it "work" long-term. But these adjustments were just place-holders. Hopefully, I'd eventually be able to come up with better solutions. Solutions that felt more like what was promised. In the scope of the game, with 80+ generations per day, 4-5 days really does feel like "forever," or long enough. So hopefully, we can eventually get to the point where we can have that endless accumulation, but for 4-5 days. Accumulation without stagnation.

CatX · 2019-08-14 12:46:48

jasonrohrer wrote:

To further flesh out the idea, as scarcity starts to creep up, there will be pressure for peaceful and cooperative interactions like trade. No wild milkweed left? Then a milkweed farm becomes very valuable. You're not just going to give your hard-earned milkweed away to some other village. But if they bring you a cart full of iron, maybe you can work something out. This is interesting. There's "time for it," because there's no other way. There's no milkweed left.

I can't help feeling that you're trying too hard.

Scarcity does happen in pre-rift worlds too. It's like you're trying to fix a problem that doesn't need fixing...

People coming together = eventually scarcity

Pre-rift worlds + roads - war swords = people coming together

Or possibly

Pre-rift worlds + roads + war swords + peace = people coming together
We haven't tried this equation yet.

Last edited by CatX (2019-08-14 12:47:03)

Whatever · 2019-08-14 12:47:50

jasonrohrer wrote:

No wild milkweed left? Then a milkweed farm becomes very valuable. You're not just going to give your hard-earned milkweed away to some other village.

Why not?
If i have a milkweed farm i can just harvest one milkweed at the right stage and take unlimited seeds from it and you only need 1 seed.
So giving away 1 seed doesnt cost anything for me.
But ofcourse i would not understand the other person, since he is from another village and he probably would get stabbed before any trade can happen.

DestinyCall · 2019-08-14 14:01:54

Whatever wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
No wild milkweed left? Then a milkweed farm becomes very valuable. You're not just going to give your hard-earned milkweed away to some other village.
Why not?
If i have a milkweed farm i can just harvest one milkweed at the right stage and take unlimited seeds from it and you only need 1 seed.
So giving away 1 seed doesnt cost anything for me.
But ofcourse i would not understand the other person, since he is from another village and he probably would get stabbed before any trade can happen.

At one point during the arc, I was in a village that had no milkweed and I needed a rope. Trading with another village never even crossed my mind for this very reason. No one is going to trade rope or string because it is a pain in the ass to farm. I can't just walk up and ask them for a milkweed seed, because they won't understand what I'm saying. They can't trust me inside their village, because I'm probably going to stab someone or steal iron or god knows what.

In theory, that village could become rope/string traders, because they have a precious limited resource that is vital to many crafting recipes. But no one is going to actually do that in the current state of the game, because extended trust to outsiders is currently too problematic. It takes a lot of time and coordination to have even a brief conversation with someone who doesn't speak your language. And if we ever managed to get to a state of the game were inter-village trading was meta, I would not want to be in the milkweed village. That stuff is too much work. I'd give away all the seeds just to break the monopoly and let other people do the farming for me.

This game doesn't really have any ideal trade goods. And enforced scarcity doesn't really help as much as you might think. If iron is limited then I'm not giving you any iron. My village needs all the iron it can get, even if we already have a bunch. Same thing with water and oil. Go find your own source of water, because mine will run out eventually and it will run out faster if we try to share. I'd be happy to let someone join our village if we have enough resources to support more people, but I'm not going to trade a piece of iron for a bucket of water or trade a canister of oil for a couple of baskets filled with ropes. Not only is it really hard to calculate an equilvaent rate of exchange between dramatically different items, the limited nature of key resources means that any reasonably valuable trade ends up being a net loss. I'd almost always be better off looking for an alternative source, rather than going to the extreme effort required to communicate and trade with another village.

Ideally, you would want to work out some kind of exchange where one town has a consistent and sustainable surplus while the other village has a consistent and long-term need for something. If the two towns have matching needs, they can establish trade that can go on for generations with one town producing goods that are consumed by the other town and visa versa. But that kind of trade is a long long way from being a reality in OHOL.

Realistically, if I want something from another town, I should just die, get reborn in that town, get old enough and carry it over to the other town myself. If I get killed, I try again until I succeed. Then I can die to get reborn back at my original town. Crisis averted. I am a hero.

SantaFray · 2019-08-14 14:22:30

You can design a game but you can not design a player base.

Or can you?

DestinyCall · 2019-08-14 14:48:13

SantaFray wrote:

You can design a game but you can not design a player base.

Or can you?

Players come and go. Make enough design changes and you end up with different kinds of players and a different kind of community.

We are already seeing that happen with the current rise in organized griefing. If the trend continues long enough, players that refuse to steal and kill will be considered griefers, playing against the game meta and refusing to contribute to the group.

Dantox · 2019-08-14 15:18:32

jasonrohrer wrote:

to further flesh out the idea, as scarcity starts to creep up, there will be pressure for peaceful and cooperative interactions like trade. No wild milkweed left? Then a milkweed farm becomes very valuable. You're not just going to give your hard-earned milkweed away to some other village. But if they bring you a cart full of iron, maybe you can work something out. This is interesting. There's "time for it," because there's no other way. There's no milkweed left.

Even if resources were super low trade wouldnt take place because is not encouraged. It is far easier to just break your way in to a village and raid the whole thing to bring the sweet loot to your family.

Trade is high-risk and low-reward and it isnt consistent since the moral profile of every town changes per generation. So if in a world where the first to growl wins why would you risk going to a village with your cart of goodies to try make a deal when you could be shot or stabbed in a single click? (plus shift)

BlueDiamondAvatar · 2019-08-14 17:16:38

DestinyCall wrote:

SantaFray wrote:
You can design a game but you can not design a player base.

Or can you?
Players come and go. Make enough design changes and you end up with different kinds of players and a different kind of community.
We are already seeing that happen with the current rise in organized griefing. If the trend continues long enough, players that refuse to steal and kill will be considered griefers, playing against the game meta and refusing to contribute to the group.

I recently started thinking that we have a "griefer base" and a "player base". Ideally the greifer base would be MUCH smaller than the player base, but we're now at a point where the griefer base seems about equal, and is starting to control server culture.

Which makes me sad.

DestinyCall · 2019-08-14 19:35:01

What I find even sadder is that I saw this cultural shift coming from a mile off. The lack of moderator reaction to pro-griefer brag threads and Jason's own posts regarding his thought on griefing were a clear sign of things to come. It was especially sad to watch new people enter the community, bright eyed and enthusiastic after their first few lives, strongly supporting the game's unique concept of cooperative multi-generational progression ... only to see how they grew more and more bitter and frustrated by the endless griefing and lack of developer support to address the problem.

I get the impression that Jason was (and probably still is) hoping that he could channel griefers into a dynamic, interesting "adversary" for his playerbase to struggle against - rather than simply trying to end the grief, he hopes to use it to make the game better. And I also think that he is aware that battling griefers is a largely thankless and unending job in any multiplayer game which never really ends. No matter what you do or how aggressively you combat it, people will still try to ruin other people's fun and people will always complain that their fun is being ruined by someone else.

The problem is that just because bacteria are everywhere, that does not mean you shouldn't wash your hands periodically. Right now, the OHOL community is like a body without an immune system. It is wide open to every nasty thing that wants to come inside and make itself at home. There is really nothing preventing it or discouraging it from happening. I don't forsee this trend reversing unless something major happens to the game. Rather, I expect the playerbase will contract and shift to accomodate the increased violence and aggressive play and generally destructive attitude encouraged by an atmosphere of chronic widespread griefing. Eventually, a new meta will develop around griefer culture. We are already seeing that happening in-game with organized griefing and discord raider camps. The Rift dialed everything up to eleven, but make no mistake ... the problem is still there, even without the close proximity and resource scarcity of the Rift.

Taz · 2019-08-14 20:31:35

jasonrohrer wrote:

So, remotely, I will affect the following changes:
--Disable the rift
--Infinitely growing Eve spiral
--No long-term no-look culling in the center.
--No time limit or end condition of any kind
We haven't had exactly this setup for quite a long time. There was a time in the past when the game worked this way.

Thank you. I just logged in and played for the first time in months because of this rollback.

<3

Villas · 2019-08-15 02:56:23

Taz wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
So, remotely, I will affect the following changes:
--Disable the rift
--Infinitely growing Eve spiral
--No long-term no-look culling in the center.
--No time limit or end condition of any kind
We haven't had exactly this setup for quite a long time. There was a time in the past when the game worked this way.

Thank you. I just logged in and played for the first time in months because of this rollback.

<3

First time in months? But the rift was added about 20 days ago, if you stopped playing months ago (at least 2), the game was exactly how it is now.

So you stopped playing months ago, he added new content 20 days ago that you haven’t seen, he rolled it back, now you come back because the game is exactly how it was when you stopped playing?

Doesn’t make sense at all.

DestinyCall · 2019-08-15 03:05:33

We haven't had an infinitely growing Eve spiral in a lot longer than a month or two.

Villas · 2019-08-15 07:13:23

DestinyCall wrote:

We haven't had an infinitely growing Eve spiral in a lot longer than a month or two.

Yeah, but he said months ago, it's at least 2 months, but it's probably more. Infinitely Eve spiral ended in may, 3 months ago, approximately when he stopped playing.

DestinyCall · 2019-08-15 07:24:36

So eve spiral went away, and he stopped playing. Eve spiral comes back, he starts to play again.

Hmm yes. I see what you mean. Doesn't make any sense.

Taz · 2019-08-15 20:42:35

Villas wrote:

Taz wrote:
jasonrohrer wrote:
So, remotely, I will affect the following changes:
--Disable the rift
--Infinitely growing Eve spiral
--No long-term no-look culling in the center.
--No time limit or end condition of any kind
We haven't had exactly this setup for quite a long time. There was a time in the past when the game worked this way.

Thank you. I just logged in and played for the first time in months because of this rollback.

<3
First time in months? But the rift was added about 20 days ago, if you stopped playing months ago (at least 2), the game was exactly how it is now.
So you stopped playing months ago, he added new content 20 days ago that you haven’t seen, he rolled it back, now you come back because the game is exactly how it was when you stopped playing?
Doesn’t make sense at all.

Much like a person doesn't have to play in the NFL to be aware of NFL gameplay changes, a person doesn't have to log in and play OHOL in order to be aware of game content changes. We live in an age where video games can be a spectator sport. Youtube and Twitch exist, my friend. I stopped playing, but that doesn't mean I stopped enjoying my favorite streamers, some of whom are OHOL players. Twisted, in particular, posts OHOL gameplay every day or two, with excellent commentary.

If you're feeling the need to try to pick apart my post again, looking for "Aha! Gotcha!" moments, please don't. I promise you, you have better things to do with your life than to waste time looking for nitpicks in some guy's post on the internet who doesn't have any interest in fighting with you. I understand that these forums have devolved into a place of people treating each other like enemies trolling each other. And that's sad. But that's not what's going on here. I'm just a dude who used to like playing OHOL, then stopped playing when I realized that content-changes were starting it down the path toward becoming a griefer shitshow. This rollback announcement was a surprise. And a welcome one. I'm glad it happened. I've gotten to log in and play a fun version of OHOL again. I know it's temporary. That's unfortunate. But I'll enjoy playing again while it lasts.

(✌ﾟ∀ﾟ)

Villas · 2019-08-16 00:47:24

DestinyCall wrote:

So eve spiral went away, and he stopped playing. Eve spiral comes back, he starts to play again.
Hmm yes. I see what you mean. Doesn't make any sense.

Haha probably, I think changing the Eve spiral algorithm made the game unplayable for him, now the spiral is infinite and Eves spawn far and far away, so then game is playable again and he decided to go back.

I thought he was upset because of the rift, but he was upset because of removing infinite Eve spiral.

One Hour One Life Forums

#26 2019-08-14 06:56:29

Re: Here's the temporary fix so I can get back to vacating

#27 2019-08-14 08:11:36

Re: Here's the temporary fix so I can get back to vacating

#28 2019-08-14 12:33:38

Re: Here's the temporary fix so I can get back to vacating

#29 2019-08-14 12:46:48

Re: Here's the temporary fix so I can get back to vacating

#30 2019-08-14 12:47:50

Re: Here's the temporary fix so I can get back to vacating

#31 2019-08-14 14:01:54

Re: Here's the temporary fix so I can get back to vacating

#32 2019-08-14 14:22:30

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#33 2019-08-14 14:48:13

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#34 2019-08-14 15:18:32

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#35 2019-08-14 17:16:38

Re: Here's the temporary fix so I can get back to vacating

#36 2019-08-14 19:35:01

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#37 2019-08-14 20:31:35

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#38 2019-08-15 02:56:23

Re: Here's the temporary fix so I can get back to vacating

#39 2019-08-15 03:05:33

Re: Here's the temporary fix so I can get back to vacating

#40 2019-08-15 07:13:23

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#41 2019-08-15 07:24:36

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#42 2019-08-15 20:42:35

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#43 2019-08-16 00:47:24

Re: Here's the temporary fix so I can get back to vacating

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