miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

jasonrohrer · 2019-08-20 23:26:15

Suggested by forum member miskas.

--Unlimited curse tokens
--Get rid of d-town, curse scores, etc.
--Allow inter-family cursing.
--Cursing someone just says, "You will never be born as a baby to me ever again, and I will never be your baby ever again."

This eliminates the need for any kind of group consensus and is automatically grief-proof. If a griefer wants to curse everyone, let em! It will have exactly the same effect has everyone cursing the griefer.

A "curse" is now a state that exists pairwise between two players, and can be created by either player.

Over time, griefers will find themselves in pairwise curse relationships with almost all players, while non-griefing players will mostly find themselves in pairwise curse relationships only with griefers.

Griefers will find themselves blocked from most villages and leading mostly barren lives whenever they play as a female.

Furthermore, each player's definition of "griefer" can vary, and that's just fine. You'll never have this berry muncher as a baby again, but you enjoy playing with this war monger.

The only missing piece here is redemption, but I'm not sure that it's necessary. How would you know someone needed redemption anyway?

"Oh, my sister's baby sure is a swell player, I'll bless them just in case I ever cursed them in the past, because they sure have changed their ways."

Seems like this would result in over-blessing.

The other little wrinkle here is the unlimited tokens. Not sure if this part is needed (it wasn't in miskas' original proposal, but I added it). I'm a little worried that there will tend to be a dog-pile effect against one person who makes an innocent slip-up.

It's somewhat self-policing, because if you get too curse happy, you're only hurting yourself.... I really like this aspect of the system, but I worry that players won't realize this until it's too late.

So maybe curse tokens won't be unlimited at first, just to prevent people from shooting off their own foot.

jasonrohrer · 2019-08-20 23:34:31

There's another wrinkle, and that's how to implement such a thing...

Over time, a griefer may be cursed by thousands of other players, and we need to keep track of all that, and somehow be able to query that list when the griefer is born. If this is kept on a central server (the way the curse score currently is), that's an expensive remote query to make. Either you have to ask the server about every potential mother for the griefer (is this mom okay? No? What about this mom?) OR you have to fetch the whole mom blacklist, which might be huge.

Maybe the one-at-a-time ask is best, because at worst, it will just slow the griefer down to get born...

If it's not kept on a central remote server, those problems are solved, but then their will be no recall of curses made one different servers (especially problematic when the player population grows beyond bigserver2 someday).

Thaulos · 2019-08-20 23:35:09

Newbie players will end up being griefer breeders. (edit: lets be very careful about making new players non appealing to normal players)

I don't dislike the idea, its a bit like the "avoid" feature in overwatch which I also like and feel it works. They only have three avoid slots to avoid something like what you said and the avoids auto expire after a week.

Maybe you could allow players to clear all the curses they did? zand/or have them expire after a long time, like 3 months or so.

Last edited by Thaulos (2019-08-20 23:37:05)

Thaulos · 2019-08-20 23:41:59

How about blocking players from being born not only if they were cursed by the mom but also if the majority of the family cursed them? A sort of group immunity.

If this new system works well it will trigger an explosion in griefing feral eves. So thats something to also keep in mind.

Last edited by Thaulos (2019-08-20 23:43:12)

jasonrohrer · 2019-08-20 23:51:52

Yes.... hmm...

If there's an Eve window, after which no Eves are born, and you have absolutely no mothers due to all of them having cursed you in the past, then I guess you'd go to d-town.

But it wouldn't be a permanent state, or some time you'd have to serve. It would just be a "there are no mothers left for you, bucko" state.

Thaulos · 2019-08-21 00:01:28

Do people really need to be born when that happens though? There could be a prompt saying no available families. Maybe a retry or autoretry.

It is a bit oitside the scope but maybe players could wait a bit to be born? Like when playersare forced born into noms despite their cooldowns.

The_Anabaptist · 2019-08-21 00:27:59

If you want a redeem function:

1) You could tie a full curse reset to an apoc being triggered.
2) You could create some ridiculously complicated monument where at the completion just one person gets a curse reset.
3) You could tie it to the peace function, then all members of both families are curse reset.
4) You have to turn a warsword into a plow? I don't know, I'm stretching for more numbers now...

The_Anabaptist

BladeWoods · 2019-08-21 00:34:05

It could auto-expire after some period like maybe a few months. Just so there's a way to get redemption.

I think you still can't allow cursing different families or else it's hard for families to fight each other which is a story I believe you want. Attack another family and risk getting cursed by all of them. Do that a few times and you can't find anyone to be born to anymore.

jasonrohrer · 2019-08-21 01:12:24

That's kinda the beauty of bilateral cursing (them cursing you is 100% the same as you cursing them). Everyone needs to be careful with cursing. If you curse too much, you're only hurting yourself.

Is what your attacker is doing so beyond the pale that you REALLY never want to be born to them or have them born to you ever again?

There's such a thing as "proper" war, right? Maybe your opponent in this war exhibits good sportsmanship, or maybe they're a real monster.

I'm still not 100% sure about cross-family cursing, though. Having to say the curse in their language is pretty neat....

And yes, it could expire after some amount of time.

I'm pretty hesitant to have it auto reset when the server wipes, though, because that will turn the post-wipe period into a grief-fest.

You did say you NEVER wanted to play with this player again, right?

breezeknight · 2019-08-21 01:14:28

jasonrohrer wrote:

Suggested by forum member miskas.

--Unlimited curse tokens
--Get rid of d-town, curse scores, etc.
--Allow inter-family cursing.
--Cursing someone just says, "You will never be born as a baby to me ever again, and I will never be your baby ever again."

it sounds like something i suggested already months ago here

i really hope this will be included, cause it WILL FINALLY PUT POWER INTO HANDS OF NON-GRIEFERS !!!

- - -

jasonrohrer wrote:

Suggested by forum member miskas.

--Unlimited curse tokens
--Get rid of d-town, curse scores, etc.
--Allow inter-family cursing.
--Cursing someone just says, "You will never be born as a baby to me ever again, and I will never be your baby ever again."

This eliminates the need for any kind of group consensus and is automatically grief-proof. If a griefer wants to curse everyone, let em! It will have exactly the same effect has everyone cursing the griefer.
A "curse" is now a state that exists pairwise between two players, and can be created by either player.
Over time, griefers will find themselves in pairwise curse relationships with almost all players, while non-griefing players will mostly find themselves in pairwise curse relationships only with griefers.
Griefers will find themselves blocked from most villages and leading mostly barren lives whenever they play as a female.

Furthermore, each player's definition of "griefer" can vary, and that's just fine. You'll never have this berry muncher as a baby again, but you enjoy playing with this war monger.

The only missing piece here is redemption, but I'm not sure that it's necessary. How would you know someone needed redemption anyway?
"Oh, my sister's baby sure is a swell player, I'll bless them just in case I ever cursed them in the past, because they sure have changed their ways."
Seems like this would result in over-blessing.

The other little wrinkle here is the unlimited tokens. Not sure if this part is needed (it wasn't in miskas' original proposal, but I added it). I'm a little worried that there will tend to be a dog-pile effect against one person who makes an innocent slip-up.
It's somewhat self-policing, because if you get too curse happy, you're only hurting yourself.... I really like this aspect of the system, but I worry that players won't realize this until it's too late.
So maybe curse tokens won't be unlimited at first, just to prevent people from shooting off their own foot.

DestinyCall · 2019-08-21 01:47:39

jasonrohrer wrote:

You did say you NEVER wanted to play with this player again, right?

Yes, please.

Roosty knife · 2019-08-21 01:54:03

I posted a topic of blessing system before. Here is an idea, what about the bless will increase the chance, that you will meet the blessed player again as your child in future live?

CatX · 2019-08-21 06:25:57

I have wanted a system like this in the past. The reason I didn't advocate it was that I felt it would place too big of a burden on new players who would give birth to all the known griefers, who would have no other available moms.

In a limited Rift world, it doesn't really matter who gives birth to you anyway. A griefer can always find their way back to any village and wreak havoc everywhere... I doubt griefers mind playing barren Eves either in a world where other people are close by. It would just further solidify the already wide gap in player styles.

If there is no Donkey Town, either Eves need to spawn so far away from other players that they're not likely to meet, requiring a huge Rift, or they need to not be born at all... Or perhaps there could be special rules for Eves like that they can't use war swords unless they have five living descendants, or some such thing.

pein · 2019-08-21 06:33:31

cursing never made sense before

a blacklist whitelist approach is better

i met with people who are very toxic, idiotic, and annoying to play with , now i would say womanwizard and walrus(dunno which one, fucking triplet griefers) and some others who are like so selfish, self centered and totally fixed on something that i don't imagine ever having any fun with them, and i don't really care what they think of me as they are disgraceful leaches anyway who just play the newbee card and live off of others
but there are people who are like just spot on good partners, i remember Pharaoh, we teamed in 2 different lifes in a row without knowing each other
or some who you argue with but you can work out like dodge or Lissuh

i don't like 100% control over it
like i may not like someone but still in time of need i would consider it as a last option

the ebst example i seen of a good workign system was mount and blade
the Ai lords coudlnt die, they could be captured, imprisoned, fired, gone for a while, but they popped up again later and they forgot slowly, you had a tred with them which could escalate fast based on the further meetings, but you could work it out

some sort of decaying relationship points, where you give multiple points with a blessing, decaying over real time
so if you play a game and like someone then you bless for 12 points which goes back to minimum 3 for example , which lasts longer time
and the curse same way
because it's a relation it works both ways, you could get up to 24 bless or curse or 6 more long term
the issue is that there is no waiting time when you join so it's quite bad evetually, like you will born a lot of times as eve if you got a few haters online same time
the reverse pairs would neutralize, that wont make much sense either but with a decaying point system you could block others on your side while they could be born to you earlier

basically you would get into smaller families if you got some peope you don't like, and bigger if you like more people
each friend at that family would bring you up to a bit more chance to born there, maybe remove cooldown if you got a few friends in that family
as a lower coutnermeasure, if you didnt had any kid for like 5 min then it wouldn't take such stuff in consideration so you wouldn't be totally alone and maybe get more time to work out the issues

i gueess there is a forever type of hate or love so maybe adding usernames to a blacklist or whitelist could be a flat bonus which is longer term

generally there are the griefers, the rpers, the hard workers, the newbees
contrary to popular beliefs, minmaxers don't hate new players, just the rp fucks who play the newbee card to slack on others
the main difference is that newbees cant do much because their lack of skill not lack of motivation or enthusiasm but they listen to advices and try to help out meanwhile rpers just tell you to fuck off and steal your stuff and annoy you
griefers are like killing left and right and pick on newbees but if they bad at it, eventually they would end up playing more lifes alone

could be some sort of end of life feedback that what you think of others if you even remember them like "no interaction" "wasn't helping much" "annoying" which would be summarized when enough comes off, maybe people would change their ways

im like more down to business, don't talk much, i answer to questions, i rather stay out of drama if doesn't affect me, and i got a few good relationship with people, and i like the newbees who are ready to improve themselves, i got a few bad jokes and some people rather hate me for minmaxing a lot, but my actions are logical most of times and getting swayed away by feelings isn't really changing the situations

anyway, under 3yo opinions shouldn't be taken so seriously so maybe some steps based on age?
like that day you get to born to each other less but it resets after
i think curses would be more often if it's unlimited, and it wouldn't be reciproc a lot of times, like lot of people don't even know they are annoying to others or what they did wrong, and totally makes sense to them to cut a mapple tree down with branch, then make a half shoe out of it, without even considering why that is bad, and some people just hate you because you criticised them once

totally separating people like this wont work as we don't have too much players, so maybe like the more people on server the more this relations would matter, the less, it would decay or get ignored faster

breezeknight · 2019-08-21 08:05:31

CatX wrote:

I have wanted a system like this in the past. The reason I didn't advocate it was that I felt it would place too big of a burden on new players who would give birth to all the known griefers, who would have no other available moms.
In a limited Rift world, it doesn't really matter who gives birth to you anyway. A griefer can always find their way back to any village and wreak havoc everywhere... I doubt griefers mind playing barren Eves either in a world where other people are close by. It would just further solidify the already wide gap in player styles.
If there is no Donkey Town, either Eves need to spawn so far away from other players that they're not likely to meet, requiring a huge Rift, or they need to not be born at all... Or perhaps there could be special rules for Eves like that they can't use war swords unless they have five living descendants, or some such thing.

if there was a whitelisting among players additionally to the blacklisting
& new players could get spawned to players who are rather whitelisted than blacklisted, then things would sort out themselves

& about griefers, i still pretty much don't care at all what they are doing & where they spawn
my only sorrow was always & will be how many options & tools peaceful, supportive, cooperative, constructive players have or lack
& OHOL was always skewed towards what griefers would like, dislike, use, misuse, prefer & so on
would this game care less about what griefers are about & more about what is supposed to be - civilisation building & parenting, griefing would get discouraged already because of such an approach, it would create a more peaceful culture & griefers wouldn't feel much at home in it

- - -

miskas · 2019-08-21 08:25:11

Jason I will repeat to emphasize on this.

cursing one player prevents him from being your bb but it doesn't prevent you from being his bb.

This is important to:
not to leave noobs alone with griefers,
keep an eye on him, be able to forgive your mother,
They will be able to start living normal lives.
They won't affect family lineage as infertile mothers if they will be born into one.
A redemption mechanic can be added this way.

Dodge · 2019-08-21 09:11:29

breezeknight wrote:

& about griefers, i still pretty much don't care at all what they are doing & where they spawn
my only sorrow was always & will be how many options & tools peaceful, supportive, cooperative, constructive players have or lack
& OHOL was always skewed towards what griefers would like, dislike, use, misuse, prefer & so on
would this game care less about what griefers are about & more about what is supposed to be - civilisation building & parenting, griefing would get discouraged already because of such an approach, it would create a more peaceful culture & griefers wouldn't feel much at home in it
- - -

Same i dont think griefing is the real issue but rather how is easy it is to grief and do a lot of damage in a short ammount of time, who cares if some griefers try to randomly stab people if you have medics and enough time to heal the victims then kill the griefers.

But when a lone griefer can easily permanently lock engines ,stacks of steel, destroy a whole village etc and other players cant do anything about it that's the real issue, easy fast and high consequences griefing.

DarkDrak · 2019-08-21 09:19:38

That would definetly be an improvement to the current system. It still has many issues though.

The definition of "greifer" is so subjective that here everyone is a greifer, even if they dont think that they greif. So it would be nice to let us decide who we want to play with and who not.

There are some very unsettling ways that it will play out though. I assume unlimited cursing tokens and no redemption here.

People who sabotage the map by lumberjacking, mass hunting or apocalypse making, play far away from others' eyes and therefore can not be cursed.
People who lure bears in a city or wall it in are generally hard to notice at all and therefore hard to curse
Warmongers normally cant be cursed 'cause they're different families or feral eves. And if you were to tweak the code to allow inter-family cursing, then war of any kind will definetly not be a thing anymore
Likewise, luring bears in a rown and/or trapping it can be done as a no relation
People are guillable. When I spot a stealthy greifer and kill him before he has damaged the town too badly, the greifer will just blame it all on me and i will receive all the curses instead, 'cause mob mentality people would rather play with sabotaging greifers than with vigilantes and they're too stupid to even realize it
People are guillable part two. If we curse the wrong person because of a misunderstanding or similiar names or whatever, we just screwed them and ourselves forever and without even really wanting to do so.
Playing in bad mood will lead to screwing yourself over. Sometimes, when shit happens, and we make the mistake to play afterwards, we are ready to kill and curse people for trivial stuff like forcefeeding (now that it got fixed) or noise spamming or just taking the elder's clothes before us.
On the other hand, a lot of activities done in town will result in a curse clown fiesta. Simple stuff as making a private 5x5 place to grow milkweed in will result in tons of curses 'cause communism rules supreme here. Gathering iron and forging it into tools to take 50 tiles away to make a detached house is also a capital offence: people see you taking the tools, they dont see you dedicating half your life to making them.

Result: many more innocent people will get screwed over than real "greifers". But that's what's been happening now for a while anyways.
Limited Curse tokens would definetly mitigate it. For every person who can actually curse responsibly, there are five who can not do that.

I do believe it to be a great improvement over the current system, at least for weeding out those who sabotage towns, if you can catch them. But even then I believe that some form of redemption would be nice to have in place. I remember a person admitted on the forums to be sabotaging large towns just 'cause they didnt want to be born there anymore over and over again and, frankly, as the game is gonna be after the rift (and has been even without the rift), i cant even blame them for that.

Then again, how would redemption work? You curse someone, they bless you back and you're back to being buddies again?

Twisted · 2019-08-21 09:26:24

I don't think it should be permanent - I think every time you curse them they get blacklisted from your baby list for an additional week, with no cap to the max time.

Let's say that there's a person killing sheep, and the village elders decide it's either Mike or Sally and they kill them both. If the blacklist lasts forever, what do you do? You either curse both of them, locking out one potential good player from your baby pool forever, or you curse neither, leaving the bad apple in your baby pool. If you just curse both suspects every time you're going to run out of potential babies that play in your time slot sooner or later. And when that happens, your account is basically ruined.

It's also important to keep in mind that most people in a town are not your children, which means that if there's a troublemaker that's on your list they can still spawn in your town. This means that most of the time you can just extend their blacklist time, and if they keep causing trouble they'll slowly get blacklisted from everyone. Once they get the ability to spawn back into civilization they can keep causing trouble, which means they'll quickly get kicked out again, or behave properly.

Baker · 2019-08-21 10:04:20

Nice for dealing with lesser trolls, Slowly filter out the bads. But how to deal with Eves griefing?

ollj · 2019-08-21 14:17:23

this might just work jason. give it a try.

Randomname · 2019-08-21 14:35:33

If the rift comes back as the same small box as before, then this idea is pointless. The people you don't want to play with will be born nearby and ruin your game play even if you remove them being born to you. Everyone is together in the rift, everywhere is walk able and easily navigated to.

breezeknight · 2019-08-21 15:57:11

Dodge wrote:

Same i dont think griefing is the real issue but rather how is easy it is to grief and do a lot of damage in a short ammount of time, who cares if some griefers try to randomly stab people if you have medics and enough time to heal the victims then kill the griefers.
But when a lone griefer can easily permanently lock engines ,stacks of steel, destroy a whole village etc and other players cant do anything about it that's the real issue, easy fast and high consequences griefing.

the war sword aside, which is solely created to kill with & nothing else
but most of the ways to grief comes from bottlenecks, like that Juniper tree cutting, because so many things crafted depend on this one object, or milkweed, a year ago it was berry bushes
alternatives to do things are always a good way to circumvent griefing & in the end to discourage it, because it gets just lame instead of a drama

& healing, i still would like to be able to heal myself & even to prevent being fatally injured at all, that's to me what civilized people are able to do & not being forced to depend on others mercy & skill

- - -

ollj · 2019-08-21 16:12:49

jasonrohrer wrote:

There's another wrinkle, and that's how to implement such a thing...
Over time, a griefer may be cursed by thousands of other players, and we need to keep track of all that, and somehow be able to query that list when the griefer is born. If this is kept on a central server (the way the curse score currently is), that's an expensive remote query to make. Either you have to ask the server about every potential mother for the griefer (is this mom okay? No? What about this mom?) OR you have to fetch the whole mom blacklist, which might be huge.
Maybe the one-at-a-time ask is best, because at worst, it will just slow the griefer down to get born...

If it's not kept on a central remote server, those problems are solved, but then their will be no recall of curses made one different servers (especially problematic when the player population grows beyond bigserver2 someday).

this problem is solved by "interrupt coalescing", the main trick of that is to NOT spend too much time in priorizing/sorting/listing to get a complete (sorted) list, by simplying the sorted-priority-list generation by defining labeled buckets/tiers/partitions. (the other trick is that sorting must not be completed, and can be interrupted/resumed at any moment).
the partitions sort (usually by priority, but here we just sort by curse-groups), but their content is not necessarily sorted.
instead of pointing to thousands of players to sort, you pont to only a few buckets of people (in a first pass filter). sure, this may sort out a few too many occasionally, but it sortens the remaining numer of people to ping.

You likely end up with some dynamic tree structure, likely a doubly-linked-list, a tree/web that can quickly be traversed in borth directions, and gets a multidimensional/simplex soapbubble-structure.

--- context. early mars probes spent too much time priorizing what to do while they got no remopte input and where on an auto pilot (huge latency from earth to mars, and null radio contcat for long times due to lack of mars satelites as relay stations). they had the problem that they spend 90% of their time and energy in sorting priority lists for their autopilote mode (what data to process and send to earth first), and lacked processing power to actually to all the things that they planned to do first, because planning and sorting took too much time. so they had to compromise and developed "interrupt coalescoing" to sped up sorting, by essentially caring a lot less about sorting precision.
the lesson here os to spend less time sorting/planning by sorting only into a few buckets, and more time on just getting anything done. just let others decide what they like most.

Last edited by ollj (2019-08-21 16:25:51)

arkajalka · 2019-08-21 16:33:22

+1 this sounds awesome

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-08-20 23:26:15

miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

#2 2019-08-20 23:34:31

Re: miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

#3 2019-08-20 23:35:09

Re: miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

#4 2019-08-20 23:41:59

Re: miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

#5 2019-08-20 23:51:52

Re: miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

#6 2019-08-21 00:01:28

Re: miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

#7 2019-08-21 00:27:59

Re: miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

#8 2019-08-21 00:34:05

Re: miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

#9 2019-08-21 01:12:24

Re: miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

#10 2019-08-21 01:14:28

Re: miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

#11 2019-08-21 01:47:39

Re: miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

#12 2019-08-21 01:54:03

Re: miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

#13 2019-08-21 06:25:57

Re: miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

#14 2019-08-21 06:33:31

Re: miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

#15 2019-08-21 08:05:31

Re: miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

#16 2019-08-21 08:25:11

Re: miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

#17 2019-08-21 09:11:29

Re: miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

#18 2019-08-21 09:19:38

Re: miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

#19 2019-08-21 09:26:24

Re: miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

#20 2019-08-21 10:04:20

Re: miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

#21 2019-08-21 14:17:23

Re: miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

#22 2019-08-21 14:35:33

Re: miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

#23 2019-08-21 15:57:11

Re: miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

#24 2019-08-21 16:12:49

Re: miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

#25 2019-08-21 16:33:22

Re: miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

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