miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

ryanb · 2019-08-21 16:52:37

I like this idea.

+1 on making an expiration time but have re-cursing the same person reset the timer

+1 on a rolling limit, let's say you have 20 slots and cursing the 21st person rolls off the first person you cursed. This way if you go curse-happy you will bring back the griefer you cursed at the beginning. If you re-curse someone they move up to the top of the list

Also I'd like to see the message "No mothers are available" with a button to clear your curses which may open up the ability to be born to someone.

DestinyCall · 2019-08-21 19:13:09

Randomname wrote:

If the rift comes back as the same small box as before, then this idea is pointless. The people you don't want to play with will be born nearby and ruin your game play even if you remove them being born to you. Everyone is together in the rift, everywhere is walk able and easily navigated to.

I think the key to making this idea work as intended is adding somewhere for these problem players to end up which isn't just in another unsuspecting village elsewhere in the same rift, where they can start causing more problems with zero consequences. Right now, death is meaningless to griefers, because they can just go right back to griefing as soon as they come back, especially if they are reborn as an Eve.

I suggested the idea of an "overflow rift" in another thread. There could be an Eve window on the main rift and then if there are no available mothers, extra babies would get redirected to the overflow rift to spawn as Eves or the babies of Eves in the overflow rift. A player who is locked out of spawning to any active player/family would end up in the overflow rift instead of respawning somewhere in the main rift. In this way, you could effectively "banish" troublemakers that accumulate too many curses. Or you could volunatrily reach the overflow by using /die.

Personally, I like the idea of a two-stage curse system. Individual and group. If you place a curse on someone, they are banned from being born to anyone in your current lineage for eight hours and banned from being born to you personally for one week. And cursing should also be cumulative and lasting. So if two people from the same lineage curse the same person, that person is banned for that lineage for sixteen hours from the time of the last cursing, instead of just eight. Likewise, if I curse the same person again in a different life, he will be banned from being born to me for two weeks instead of just one week. Each additional curse doubles the curse ban duration.

So a single curse isn't completely permenant, but multiple curses stack up quickly. Someone who accumulates a lot of curses from multiple people will run out of available mothers in the main rift pretty fast. But a single random curse should not have much impact on normal play. And if the same person keeps bothering you, life after life, he will eventually accumulate enough curses that you will never have him as your child. It might even motivate people to keep track of their kids more closely to weed out the "bad" ones. Over time, your kids will mostly be people that you enjoy playing with. And you would not need to catch every single griefer red-handed, because other people's curses will also tend to remove problem players from active lineages. Older families will tend toward fewer griefers, because disruptive players will be cursed and removed from the bloodline for an extended period of time. But they are not locked out forever, so if you get cursed over a stupid misunderstanding, you can potential play in that same lineage in the future, assuming it lasts long enough for the curse to lift.

DiscardedSlinky · 2019-08-22 00:35:12

The player base is WAYY too small for this. Way way too small. Maybe just keep it like, they can't be born to you for like a week?

Also if the rift is going to stay as TEENY TINY as it is, they can just walk across the map in a few mins. Literally doesn't matter.

Last edited by DiscardedSlinky (2019-08-22 00:35:56)

DestinyCall · 2019-08-22 01:15:07

If we want meaningful interactions between villages, they need to be close together. If they are close together, there needs to be a better way to deal with serial griefers.

Killing a griefer does nothing. In the Rift, we are all trapped together in a small box. No one really dies or gets out. But even without the Rift, this game is a closed loop. Kill a griefer in one village and he gets born in a new village. It is an endless cycle. It solves nothing because death has no meaning if you don't value your own life. It changes your location but it doesn't remove the freedom to grief.

I don't think the number of griefers is really that high - people with very high lifetime curse scores make up only a tiny fraction of the playerbase. It just feels like they are everywhere because one griefer can ruin an entire village in a single lifetime. The problem is that griefing is too easy and too rewarding. Make it harder and make it risky. It will be a lot less appealing, less organized, and less invasive.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-08-22 01:20:34)

kubassa · 2019-08-22 02:28:04

BladeWoods wrote:

Do that a few times and you can't find anyone to be born to anymore.

Twisted wrote:

I don't think it should be permanent - I think every time you curse them they get blacklisted from your baby list for an additional week, with no cap to the max time.
Let's say that there's a person killing sheep, and the village elders decide it's either Mike or Sally and they kill them both. If the blacklist lasts forever, what do you do? You either curse both of them, locking out one potential good player from your baby pool forever, or you curse neither, leaving the bad apple in your baby pool. If you just curse both suspects every time you're going to run out of potential babies that play in your time slot sooner or later. And when that happens, your account is basically ruined.
It's also important to keep in mind that most people in a town are not your children, which means that if there's a troublemaker that's on your list they can still spawn in your town. This means that most of the time you can just extend their blacklist time, and if they keep causing trouble they'll slowly get blacklisted from everyone. Once they get the ability to spawn back into civilization they can keep causing trouble, which means they'll quickly get kicked out again, or behave properly.

Some people thinking ahead here.......

This system sounds absolutely terrible. There is not enough of a player base to even support a permanent ban. Soon everyone will be playing by themselves in this scenario. Jason don't swing the pendulum so extreme to the other side just to appease a minority of people crying on your forums. Take some time and think it through before going all extreme. You will just lose even more players and the cry babies will still be crying about something else.

Last edited by kubassa (2019-08-22 02:28:49)

Coconut Fruit · 2019-08-22 02:50:27

Instead I would rather want to see players rating or something like how many curses a player got last 30 days. New born babies with let's say 4+ curses last 30 days would born with some kind of mark. People would see that mark and would decide either to feed that baby or let it die. That would be good punishment

wondible · 2019-08-22 03:05:53

Coconut Fruit wrote:

Instead I would rather want to see players rating or something like how many curses a player got last 30 days. New born babies with let's say 4+ curses last 30 days would born with some kind of mark. People would see that mark and would decide either to feed that baby or let it die. That would be good punishment

That was the first version of cursing. Players would get (and still do I think) white-on-black text. Some people would ask babies to speak before keeping them. It was a big drama moment when a cursed baby came along (at least one that got kept griefed us for sure) Once I was born to a cursed mother - she was okay to us, but ran off early; perhaps she had served her time. Anyway, the problem was people would play for curses just to get the edgy black text, or even politely ask for curses without actually doing anything, which kind of ruins it's value as a quality signal.

pein · 2019-08-22 03:09:26

fyi, we don't have enough players to make final cuts between groups and players
so any sort of this system needs to control likelihood but not timers and bans

nobody will admit that he is a griefer, and nobody likes to be called one
and from my opinion you can be one and chances are that you will say the same if i mention it, but you will act nice and hate others in silence
also just like tinder or facebook, the swipe right effect is strong
if there is nay kind of punishment for bad opinion on others and works both ways then nobody will say no
no dislike button on facebook either cause some people care so much it would make them suicide

im fully aware that lot of people hate me but then again i know most of people who matter and got good relations with them

also you cant really compare people who live an average life of 40+ or the ones who randomly die at age 2-20 and it's always others fault and they wish they deleted from the earth
or people who leach on others and still complain on them that the game would be better without em

some sort of big/small family control would be good, so the people who don't enjoy a lot of convo or blacklsited by many, would be born in smaller fams, not as 6th kid
and maybe some sort of auto grouping that people who like each other are grouped together and some sort of friend groups which would control the setup like you would more likely be born to a family where a friend of your friends is than to someone who friend of your blacklisted people

one sided feelings shouldn't count that much that it would block them and you out, cause then we get the same shit that families die out fast
and you end up with randos who quit on you and that will just generate same thing

the reciproc feeligns would count more, also should be hidden, no need to raise attention and start echo in a town

then the fake friends effect count be countered with a bigger punishment if someone changes frequently blacklisted people to whitelist and vice versa

there is no perfec solutions other than actual manual checks on people if many of them reports someone
like a group of random jury could watch a replay of a life and confirm that the player is toxic then some more dastical punishments if occurs often
or the game mechanics should prevent/limit to destroy stuff easier than making it

jasonrohrer · 2019-08-22 03:26:05

Regarding the noob sister in your family who will be a griefer-gate (because she's too new to have cursed anyone)....

The latest idea is this:

If you curse someone, they cannot be born in some radius (say w/in 50 tiles of you), and you can't be born w/in 50 tiles of them. So you don't need to worry about your noob sister letting griefers come in.

(And yes, each player defines what "griefer" means to them.... maybe they don't want to play with Nazis or SJWs or TERFs or MRAs or FBIs or whatever, maybe they don't want to play with berry munchers.)

Note this important wrinkle: cursing is SYMMETRICAL. Me cursing you has exactly the same effect as you cursing me. In fact, by cursing you, I get cursed by you automatically in return. So anyone who is too liberal with curses will find themselves over-cursed as well.

I'm also going to leave the token system in place for now. So you get to curse one person per hour, max. This will stop people from going overboard over little things.

And yeah, I'll have some sort of expiration date on it as well. I'll make it pretty short for now, to avoid disaster. Maybe 48 hours? And cursing the same person again renews it.

And... probably I'll make it so you don't need to speak the same language to curse anymore. You will need to be careful when cursing during a war for the above reason of symmetry.

Finally... what happens if you are "cursed out"? That means that every available mother for you in the game is within the radius of someone who has blocked you. That means no one wants to play with you currently.

So in that case, you go to d-town as usual (you do NOT get to be a rift Eve).

Coconut Fruit · 2019-08-22 05:03:30

Some kind of rating could be also useful. That would motivate players to actually work and help family instead of grief.
It would be cool if there was a button in game that would open a window with all family members and their score. (Or instead of a button just press TAB to show scores like in counter strike or smth)

BladeWoods · 2019-08-22 08:33:22

jasonrohrer wrote:

Regarding the noob sister in your family who will be a griefer-gate (because she's too new to have cursed anyone)....
The latest idea is this:
If you curse someone, they cannot be born in some radius (say w/in 50 tiles of you), and you can't be born w/in 50 tiles of them. So you don't need to worry about your noob sister letting griefers come in.
(And yes, each player defines what "griefer" means to them.... maybe they don't want to play with Nazis or SJWs or TERFs or MRAs or FBIs or whatever, maybe they don't want to play with berry munchers.)

Note this important wrinkle: cursing is SYMMETRICAL. Me cursing you has exactly the same effect as you cursing me. In fact, by cursing you, I get cursed by you automatically in return. So anyone who is too liberal with curses will find themselves over-cursed as well.

I'm also going to leave the token system in place for now. So you get to curse one person per hour, max. This will stop people from going overboard over little things.
And yeah, I'll have some sort of expiration date on it as well. I'll make it pretty short for now, to avoid disaster. Maybe 48 hours? And cursing the same person again renews it.
And... probably I'll make it so you don't need to speak the same language to curse anymore. You will need to be careful when cursing during a war for the above reason of symmetry.

Finally... what happens if you are "cursed out"? That means that every available mother for you in the game is within the radius of someone who has blocked you. That means no one wants to play with you currently.
So in that case, you go to d-town as usual (you do NOT get to be a rift Eve).

Idk which would be better between risking noob griefer-gates vs short-duration area bans. Area bans seem very hard to balance. I imagine the duration needs to be pretty short or else people can get stuck in DTown for a long time, but a short duration also means you can't build a very long blacklist. Can there be a way to clear curses made by yourself in case you get stuck from giving out too many curses?

Cursing only affecting your own children and mother adds a nice dynamic where you know that your direct family is more trustworthy than say your cousins since only your direct family went through your filter.

DarkDrak · 2019-08-22 10:47:31

jasonrohrer wrote:

Finally... what happens if you are "cursed out"? That means that every available mother for you in the game is within the radius of someone who has blocked you. That means no one wants to play with you currently.
So in that case, you go to d-town as usual (you do NOT get to be a rift Eve).

Hold on there. How is that implemented? You check for available mothers and if you find none, you're born in DT? Wont that work also in case of SIDing? Or quadding when comulatively the four of you are lineage banned from all families for natural reasons? How can one be born as a rift Eve then?

DestinyCall · 2019-08-22 14:39:51

It sounds like the plan is to have an Eve window, so there will be a limited number of Eves seeding the rift and beyond that we are responsible for keeping the lineage alive. No more feral Eves.

And yes, if you want to "escape" from the rift, you could use /die. Donkey Town is basically acting like an "overflow", a place for extra players to spawn if they can't spawn normally in the rift. The game needs to put people somewhere, so if you want to avoid endless cycling, this is a reasonable solution.

jasonrohrer · 2019-08-22 16:30:14

No, the "cursed out" would be a special case, separate from /DIE area bans.

If there's an Eve spriral running, if you /DIE out of all families, or all mothers are on birth cooldown, you become Eve.

If there's no Eve spiral running (Eve window is closed), then if you /DIE out of all families, or all mothers are on cooldown, then we find SOME fertile mother for you, come hell or high water (even if she has too many babies, and even if you recently lived or /DIEd in that area).

So this idea adds a new case: There ARE mothers available to you, BUT all of them have cursed banned you. In that case, you go to d-town. D-town people can only have D-town babies.

Regarding symmetry and radius banning with cursing, I'm still not sure about this. I do like the "keep the immediate family/kids close" thing... knowing that they are "your people." And being wary of your sister's kids. On the other hand, I do what cursing to have pretty extreme power. GET OUT OF MY FACE should mean something.

But miskas suggests cursing should only block babies, and not block you from being born around them (or to them as your mother). This also makes some sense. Imagine there are 5 griefers that you have cursed, and they are currently spread in the 5 families on the map. If cursing is symmetrical, that means YOU will be banned from all 5 families and go to d-town. You've said, "I don't ever want to play with these 5 people," and guess what? They are currently "covering" all the possible birth locations on the map. Oops.

If curse tokens were unlimited, then this might be okay (you'd need to be careful with cursing to avoid blocking yourself out), but I don't trust players not to make a mistake here and shoot off their own foot, so I think there need to be tokens. And if there are tokens, then might as well not make cursing symmetrical, to avoid the above problem case.

So let's say: You get 1 curse per hour (or some adjustable number---actually, it's currently 1 per 2 hours, which is too slow), and cursing is asymmetrical (so it only blocks incoming babies, and does not limit where you can be born).

So that leaves the last wrinkle: is it area-based or family-based? Area-based solves all problems (noob sister griefer-gate), but maybe makes things a little less interesting. Family based needs to be defined. Does it just control your babies? What about your grandbabies or great grandbabies?

Thaulos · 2019-08-22 16:38:50

Area or lineage bans can be dangerous. What if a griefer who has been cursed a lot slips into a mom? Suddenly a large part of the population would be banned from the town entirely. This could even kill towns on its own.

Maybe a check not only on the mother but also on the grandmother and brothers? It would probably minimize cascading effects but still allow some herd protection for newbies.

Taz · 2019-08-22 16:42:39

jasonrohrer wrote:

The latest idea is this:
If you curse someone, they cannot be born in some radius (say w/in 50 tiles of you), and you can't be born w/in 50 tiles of them.

I'm also going to leave the token system in place for now. So you get to curse one person per hour, max.

I'll have some sort of expiration date on it as well. I'll make it pretty short for now, to avoid disaster. Maybe 48 hours? And cursing the same person again renews it.

I'll make it so you don't need to speak the same language to curse anymore.

what happens if you are "cursed out"? That means that every available mother for you in the game is within the radius of someone who has blocked you. That means no one wants to play with you currently. So in that case, you go to d-town as usual (you do NOT get to be a rift Eve).

I like this. It should solve almost every problem that's kept me away from the game the past few months. With these rules, even the rift might be an okay game. (Rift should still be much bigger regardless.)

jasonrohrer · 2019-08-22 17:01:45

Yes, Thaulos, that is a good argument for NOT having the curses act symmetrically. (Symmetrical was a bad idea after all.)

A widely-cursed griefer (that everyone hates) should NOT block other people from being born in that area.

After all, the griefer might not even be born there, but might migrate there. They carry a "no baby" shadow wherever they go, if curses are symmetrical.

But if they are NOT symmetrical, and they only block the griefer getting born, that's fine, right? Even if it is area-based?

I'm also trying to think about how this system could be griefed. What if one griefer curses everyone they can (one per hour). They don't cause too much trouble. They might get born in some family and cast a no-baby shadow for a while... but it's just one family. And new players come in all the time, so some baby would be born there.

The idea here is that there's still safety in numbers. One griefer gets 24 curses per day, but a group of 50 players gets 1200 curses per day. Pretty easy to "cover" all the griefers with those. Much easier to end up with a griefer blocked from getting born everywhere than for one griefer to kill a village by being born there and blocking incoming "good" babies for a while.

The griefer's list will have holes.

But the "good folks" lists will collectively have no holes.

Thaulos · 2019-08-22 17:27:34

Any future system might not be symmetrical by design but I would reckon it also needs to account for situations where griefers will always curse back when cursed by someone. They could do it in an attempt to also damage the original curser chances of being born in good towns.

Maybe we could have a sort of "curse score" check where people with more" curse score" lose in ability to apply restrictions on people with less "curse score".

A griefer, which is bound to have more overall "curse score" than the average player, would lose the ability to restrict other people to be born into the area/lineage/town/close family?.Maybe that would work well for the herd immunity part.

But then we could also have a sort of direct curse enforcement where it would always ban people from being children or mother from people they cursed or were cursed by.

Last edited by Thaulos (2019-08-22 17:31:13)

DarkDrak · 2019-08-22 18:03:21

jasonrohrer wrote:

No, the "cursed out" would be a special case, separate from /DIE area bans.
So this idea adds a new case: There ARE mothers available to you, BUT all of them have cursed banned you. In that case, you go to d-town. D-town people can only have D-town babies.

What happens if there's one berry muncher that you couldnt stand and have cursed, and they cursed you back? The next day that berry muncher is a fertile female in a big town and you SID until all other fertiles have area banned you or are on cool down, exept for the berry muncher... At that point there are mothers available to you, but you're curse banned from that area.
Does cycling take precedence here? or do you end up in DT?

I mean, it would be a kinda strong deterrent from /dieing, but...

jasonrohrer wrote:

But if they are NOT symmetrical, and they only block the griefer getting born, that's fine, right? Even if it is area-based?
I'm also trying to think about how this system could be griefed.

+1 to no symmetry.

A typical way of how this might be greifed, that i can think of, is the classycal framing tactic:
Sabotage the town, then frame it on someone else and fake being the "hero".
Or be annoying to someone until they stab you, then play the victim and get them cursed.
Or sabotage the town, then, when a vigilante kills you, play the victim and get them cursed instead.

I've lost track of how many times i've seen this happening.
But i doubt that there's something that can be done about that one. People are at fault here, not the system.

jasonrohrer · 2019-08-22 18:12:11

Yeah, in the case where you've /DIEd out of every town, except one where you're curse-banned, you would NOT got to d-town.

At that point, you'd Eve (if the Eve spiral was still running) OR you'd override your /DIE ban to find some mother.

The d-town case is only if we absolutely can find no mother for you due to curses.

Coconut Fruit · 2019-08-22 21:02:36

I like the concept from first post except simetrical part and curse scores that should stay IMO

jasonrohrer wrote:

--Unlimited curse tokens
--Get rid of d-town, curse scores, etc.
--Allow inter-family cursing.
--Cursing someone just says, "You will never be born as a baby to me ever again,and I will never be your baby ever again."

The idea from first version of cursing where people got edgy black text also wasn't bad, but instead of edgy text they should get an ugly face emotion instead, something that nobody would want to have.

I would do it like this:
- People with high curse score (past 30 days) would get a different permanent (until their curse score gets low enough) face emotion, so people can recoginze them easier. Disable other emotes for them such as /happy etc.
- Cursing someone makes that you can't give birth to that person (for 90 days) - this has two positive effects, first is that you won't give birth to the grieffer, and second is that grieffer may be scared to cursing people around, because maybe sometimes he would want to play a normal game and wouldn't be able to give birth to normal people, since he cursed many good people.
- People with high curse score give less cursing points to other people, the higher your curse score is, the less cursing points you give. Let's say a person with no curses past 30 days curses someone with 1.0 curse score. A person with curse score of 5 could curse someone adding him/her only 0.2 curse score.

In this case it's important that curse score shouldn't be added right away but let's say after 10 minutes, that would prevent some scenarios where a griefer with curse score of 0 starts cursing everyone around adding them 1.0 curse score. In that 10 minutes he would get some curses for that grieffing and that would lower his cursing power, so people that he cursed could get much less than 1.0 curse score.

DestinyCall · 2019-08-22 21:53:16

Coconut Fruit wrote:

The idea from first version of cursing where people got edgy black text also wasn't bad, but instead of edgy text they should get an ugly face emotion instead, something that nobody would want to have.

Even if you make a really ugly face, some people will still find it cute or funny or cool. People are weird. For example, if you made the cursed face literally butt-ugly ... your face looks like an actual butt ... I guarantee someone would want to get a screenshot of a bunch of butt-faced babies standing around the campfire. It would be funny as hell.

That being said, I do think that the "curse mark" idea was dropped too quickly. Black text/speech bubble is too cool looking to be a good punishment. And it requires the cursed person to speak to expose themselves. This created a lot of drama because you had to make a person speak to find out if they were hiding a black speech bubble. Cursed people could sneak in easily by just being mute. And innocent mutes got targeted unjustly. It didn't work as intended, but I think the core idea could work with a little tweaking.

Both issues could be fixed by sticking on a face emote that lets anyone see that the person has been marked as a potential problem. It should be different from any of the voluntary emotes made by non-cursed people. I think a derpy sad panda face might work. Most people would get tired of it once the novelty wore off and it fits with the idea of being "cursed". And, ideally, it should STOP cursed people from being able to kill while cursed ... because they can't get a murder face. They are stuck with sad panda cursed face and don't feel up to stabbing anyone today.

This would mean two things - cursed people will be marked as a problem and anyone who sees one will know that person might be trouble, so they will be on guard. But a cursed player can't get stabby until the curse is lifted. So you might let a cursed baby live, out of pity, and just monitor for less violent griefing. They are marked for life, but they can still contribute as long as the community agrees to keep them around. Or you might not want to take the risk, so you let the cursed ones starve. It would be up to the community how we decide to treat the unfortunate ones.

I would have the curse face remain in effect for three hours of in-game time or eight hours of real time per curse accumulated in the last 24 hours. I wouldn't bother with complex curse strength calculations. Everyone gets a vurse token each hour. Everyone picks how to spend it. If people are cursing everyone left and right, everyone will be born a derpy baby and we can all be sad pandas together. It won't last forever.

Tempted · 2019-08-22 22:26:33

DestinyCall wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
You did say you NEVER wanted to play with this player again, right?

Yes, please.

I second

Saolin · 2019-08-23 18:27:50

Tempted wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
jasonrohrer wrote:
You did say you NEVER wanted to play with this player again, right?

Yes, please.
I second

With the suggestions in this thread, you definitely WILL play with the player again, especially in the rift. Only way to avoid it would be perma ban to donkey town.

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Re: miskas' brilliant replacement for Donkeytown

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