first and last post

Mr meeseeks · 2019-09-15 18:03:46

DestinyCall wrote:

Griefing isn't about balance. It is about exploiting an unfair advantage.
You might find building a peaceful village boring and random murder interesting, but many players would rather not deal with that kind of "drama" every time they play in a decent sized town.
The novelty wears off quickly.
Griefing does not add "spice" or variety to OHOL. It limits growth and destroys gameplay options. The game is objectively worse for allowing this kind of behavior to become so widespread and chronic that it could be viewed as "normal".

Objectively?

I think that's a matter of opinion...

I don't think griefing can be stopped... It can be frustrating sometimes, but I don't think I would enjoy the game as much if there were never any conflict.

We just need to be able to enforce consequences for people that take it too far.

Everything is about balance.

Dodge · 2019-09-15 18:28:30

Mr meeseeks wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
Griefing isn't about balance. It is about exploiting an unfair advantage.
You might find building a peaceful village boring and random murder interesting, but many players would rather not deal with that kind of "drama" every time they play in a decent sized town.
The novelty wears off quickly.
Griefing does not add "spice" or variety to OHOL. It limits growth and destroys gameplay options. The game is objectively worse for allowing this kind of behavior to become so widespread and chronic that it could be viewed as "normal".
Objectively?
I think that's a matter of opinion...
I don't think griefing can be stopped... It can be frustrating sometimes, but I don't think I would enjoy the game as much if there were never any conflict.
We just need to be able to enforce consequences for people that take it too far.
Everything is about balance.

The issue currently is that the "conflicts" are just some random "lololo i killed you"

It's not a real conflict, there is no story or lore reason behind that killing it's just random murdering.

If the game was made in a way that these stories would happen as a part of the on going life for an actual motivated reason, then it would be interesting.

But right now it's just frustrating non sense.

imagine a story where you are born as a poor farmer and the rich people look down on you with their fancy clothes and gourmet foods, they threat you like dirt but you have to work for them to be able to get by.

At some point you get fed up and decide to organize a rebellion to take them out and regain your freedom, you end up slaughtering them all in a blood bath and live the rest of your life free.

Much more interesting than some random pointless murder that has no meaning to it.

Mr meeseeks · 2019-09-15 18:52:42

Dodge wrote:

Mr meeseeks wrote:
DestinyCall wrote:
Griefing isn't about balance. It is about exploiting an unfair advantage.
You might find building a peaceful village boring and random murder interesting, but many players would rather not deal with that kind of "drama" every time they play in a decent sized town.
The novelty wears off quickly.
Griefing does not add "spice" or variety to OHOL. It limits growth and destroys gameplay options. The game is objectively worse for allowing this kind of behavior to become so widespread and chronic that it could be viewed as "normal".
Objectively?
I think that's a matter of opinion...
I don't think griefing can be stopped... It can be frustrating sometimes, but I don't think I would enjoy the game as much if there were never any conflict.
We just need to be able to enforce consequences for people that take it too far.
Everything is about balance.
The issue currently is that the "conflicts" are just some random "lololo i killed you"
It's not a real conflict, there is no story or lore reason behind that killing it's just random murdering.
If the game was made in a way that these stories would happen as a part of the on going life for an actual motivated reason, then it would be interesting.
But right now it's just frustrating non sense.
imagine a story where you are born as a poor farmer and the rich people look down on you with their fancy clothes and gourmet foods, they threat you like dirt but you have to work for them to be able to get by.
At some point you get fed up and decide to organize a rebellion to take them out and regain your freedom, you end up slaughtering them all in a blood bath and live the rest of your life free.
Much more interesting than some random pointless murder that has no meaning to it.

That could be fun.

One time I was born in to a town with twin girls that were locking their babies in a tiny fenced in area with just enough resources to farm and keep them alive.. My mom was afk and she stole and trapped me in her prison. Lol I thought she was saving me. She made us farm and threatened us with a knife if we tried to escape..

I died and was reborn to her while she was outside of her cage, so I managed to get away and find someone to raise me.. I made it my life's goal to kill her, and free my siblings.

I managed to rally the town, and kill both twins.

We freed five or six of their kids and grandkids even!

That was a very fun life.

Mr meeseeks · 2019-09-15 18:57:04

Griefing is MUCH less common before about 5pm EST. There are also more players during those hours.. Consider playing earlier in the day if you want a more wholesome experience.

Last edited by Mr meeseeks (2019-09-15 18:57:33)

DestinyCall · 2019-09-15 18:57:47

Yes, objectively worse. As in you can graph it on a chart.

This game would be better with less griefing. That is not an opinion, it is a factual statement regarding the current state of the game. I agree that some griefing will always be present in a multiplayer environment. The only way to completely eliminate griefing would be to offer a single-player version of OHOL, but of course that would largely defeat the core purpose of the game and eliminates one of its most compelling dynamics - working together with strangers to build a civilization. It would be a nice option for players who want to learn how to do high level crafting, but I wouldn't want OHOL to be a single-player only game.

I also do not want to remove all challenges and I don't want to punish freedom of choice. But I DO want griefing to have real consequences FOR the griefers, not just for their victims. I want it to entail real risks that directly affect players who intentionally and repeatedly antagonize other players, so the choice to grief becomes a hard one. Is killing your sister worth risking your ability to keep playing with other players? Do you really want steal that basket of iron and and hide it behind a tree? You might get away with it this time, but if you keep killing and upsetting other villagers, eventually, you will make a mistake and get caught.

Right now it doesn't really matter, because no matter how many times you are stopped, you can go right back to griefing in your next life and the next one and the next one. You will not get banned from BigServer2 if you kill ten villages in a row. You won't even get a temporary time-out to think about what you did. You have a free pass to keep on stabbing until your stabbing arm gets tired and you log off to rest for a while.

Mr meeseeks wrote:

Griefing is MUCH less common before about 5pm EST. There are also more players during those hours.. Consider playing earlier in the day if you want a more wholesome experience.

So your solution is that I should move to a different time zone or play while I'm asleep or at work?

Yeah, I'll take that into consideration.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-09-15 19:15:49)

Mr meeseeks · 2019-09-15 20:23:08

DestinyCall wrote:

Yes, objectively worse. As in you can graph it on a chart.
This game would be better with less griefing. That is not an opinion, it is a factual statement regarding the current state of the game. I agree that some griefing will always be present in a multiplayer environment. The only way to completely eliminate griefing would be to offer a single-player version of OHOL, but of course that would largely defeat the core purpose of the game and eliminates one of its most compelling dynamics - working together with strangers to build a civilization. It would be a nice option for players who want to learn how to do high level crafting, but I wouldn't want OHOL to be a single-player only game.
I also do not want to remove all challenges and I don't want to punish freedom of choice. But I DO want griefing to have real consequences FOR the griefers, not just for their victims. I want it to entail real risks that directly affect players who intentionally and repeatedly antagonize other players, so the choice to grief becomes a hard one. Is killing your sister worth risking your ability to keep playing with other players? Do you really want steal that basket of iron and and hide it behind a tree? You might get away with it this time, but if you keep killing and upsetting other villagers, eventually, you will make a mistake and get caught.
Right now it doesn't really matter, because no matter how many times you are stopped, you can go right back to griefing in your next life and the next one and the next one. You will not get banned from BigServer2 if you kill ten villages in a row. You won't even get a temporary time-out to think about what you did. You have a free pass to keep on stabbing until your stabbing arm gets tired and you log off to rest for a while.
Mr meeseeks wrote:
Griefing is MUCH less common before about 5pm EST. There are also more players during those hours.. Consider playing earlier in the day if you want a more wholesome experience.
So your solution is that I should move to a different time zone or play while I'm asleep or at work?
Yeah, I'll take that into consideration.

It's more of a suggestion.. If playing at a different time isn't an option, then it's not a solution in your case.

It does seem you're agreeing with everything I've said.. You want a more balanced system where people that grief excessively will have real consequences..

I'm sure Jason is working on a solution..

Griefing is a part of life. People on Wall Street have been griefing the entire world for decades.. A lot of people suck a lot..

Players need to be more vigilant and assertive in dealing with them.

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-17 19:08:02

Nice catch there on the bit of code that makes sure Eves never spawn outside. That is indeed a really bad unintended consequence.

Fixing it now.

Update: that's actually a red herring and NOT the cause of this problem. That sanity check is just fine... still looking for the real cause.

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-17 20:12:41

Wait a minute...

I just checked the logs, and I'm seeing cursed eves being born correctly 20,000 tiles away in d-town.

I don't see any Eves spawning inside the rift after the Eve window closes.

Has someone witnessed a cursed Eve inside the rift?

DestinyCall · 2019-09-17 20:49:37

I haven't seen Eves spawning outside the window, but it was reported as happening here:

https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/issues/386

I have mostly been experienced a large amount of serial griefing with the same griefer or team of griefers repeatedly targeting the same village until it dies.

Twisted · 2019-09-17 21:14:57

I don't have any experience with Eves spawning outside the windows and I can't confirm that it's happening, but being cursed during the Eve window means you have perma-Eve mode. If a player has enough curses to skip several mothers, they should not be rewarded with an Eve spawn inside the rift. That means they can roam the map and cause ruckus, and when they are killed they immediately spawn as a fully functioning adult ready to do the same thing all over again.

Since the Eve window is eight hours that's eight hours of troublemaking with no consequences.

fug · 2019-09-17 23:33:06

Twisted wrote:

I don't have any experience with Eves spawning outside the windows and I can't confirm that it's happening, but being cursed during the Eve window means you have perma-Eve mode. If a player has enough curses to skip several mothers, they should not be rewarded with an Eve spawn inside the rift. That means they can roam the map and cause ruckus, and when they are killed they immediately spawn as a fully functioning adult ready to do the same thing all over again.
Since the Eve window is eight hours that's eight hours of troublemaking with no consequences.

The bug was actually related to the no D-town during the Eve window from the looks of it. On my personal server I guess my window wasn't closing so this meant (in combination with the curse tokens like ACTUALLY doing nothing due to the server only checking the top person who cursed) that it looked like Eves were sneaking into the arc.

Basically due to a child bragging about griefing we now have donkey town available while the rift is open which is a great change, combine this with the 7 day limit and maybe people might actually get kicked out of the rift for some amount of time. Add in the ability for the discord to call out people to curse and boom, mobs can attempt to actively block the people working to shit up the rift.

Good update, good fix, good day.

Booklat1 · 2019-09-17 23:39:13

fug wrote:

Good update, good fix, good day.

Yeah, I think so too. Kinda sucks that after the rift we needed an entire redesign of cursing but it seems this time we're having it fixed rather fast. And quite frankly, this is one thing Jason should be absolutely iron-handed about, we've already have so many updates dedicates to cursing that the harder curses hit griefers now the best it'll be for the overall development of the game (more time to spend on other issues)

currently we have this huge pile of suggested fixes in github that Jason wanted to look through but has to fix curses before actually doing, so I hope this update fixes it.

FeverDog · 2019-09-18 03:30:55

Real life griefing is rare because of a myriad of consequences. Internet griefing is ubiquitous because consequences are rare or non-existent. If this game is trying to model real life as close as possible then there have to be consequences to griefing at an adequate level to prevent it.

Anhigen · 2019-09-18 04:12:06

I still look at griefing--the random killings, raids, and wars--as a symptom to the lack of meaningful interactions we can have with other players. We just can't interact with one another in the rift in a way that means anything to us or the game. Interestingly we start out each run in relationship with a random player and it's full of cool moments and interactions. From being named to cared for and clothed. Then all of that drops away and you don't have another interaction--meaningful--with any other player for next 57 minutes.

I get that where in some growing stage with all this knife business. The recent update has to help, but I'm kind of glad we had this stage, it really highlighted how meaningless the killings are as well. Impactful, but ultimately meaningless. I'm not against them, but the murders aren't over property, or back packs, or anything interesting. Even the apocalypse isn't over a feud that got so embittered that one family decided to end the rift--you know something with some feeling--instead it's so meaningless. I mean, that's kind part and parcel with whiping the slate clean, is that remove all information and memory of the previous. It's this wholly impactful event, that changes the entire server, but it's intrinsically meaningless. As for the killings, people don't even loot your corpse for your cool shit (because there is no cool shit), the entire "greif" is just in ending your play. They don't gain anything for it in game and neither do you, and think that's an unfortunate. PVP should create a value change.

Property could have made us fight over resources or items but nothing is valuable yet and we just didn't take to maintaining these fences. Or war swords could have made us form tighter communities, raid saplings, and start an industry, but it didn't. It's a wild, and dark magic, creating the exact set of tools and circumstances that will produce interesting behaviors from players, and as a developer you learn about your game--and it's users--with each one of these new tools/toys/mechanics you toss into the game. But fences didn't make us fight instead they showed that nothing is truly valuable yet--outside of fertile women. And what's of note about that is we can't actually fight over that resource. So all the reasons for war or fighting, that drive human behavior, are not in the rift. It'll be tough but it'll be fun when we can settle inner familial disputes with who was the biggest knife--I'll fucking kill you if you don't give me that milkweed--but since we're not disputing, and possession isn't really a thing, all we have is greifing.

Like you can imagine this griefing as a failure of policing or you can see it as the tool that highlighted the lack of value items have in game--we're not stealing or defending important non-replaceable precious things; we're not being killed for anything--or the dearth of meaningful interactions we have with other players outside of birth. Property and war didn't fail but they're not important, and thus don't organize us, because we discovered we don't have anything to fight for control over.

This is a great setup for a new THING to land on the rift, that we'll all go crazy over to get our hands on, and after this long wait sure as shit I'mma put a knife in your guts to get it.

FeverDog · 2019-09-18 12:07:09

Anhigen wrote:

but the murders aren't over property, or back packs, or anything interesting.

I disagree. To me, my experience of this game, it's about creating order out of chaos. It's about creation, development, sacrifice, progress, working against the tragedy of the commons. I think that idea was built into the design of the game fairly explicitly and that it's a unique or at least rare thing in video games. I also think this is why Jason might be reluctant to give us tools to directly combat griefers. Because the other side of this is that griefing in this game--whether they know it or not--is about destruction, regression, hedonism, and individual selfishness. There's definitely an overlay of deep philosophical ideas here--well, in my reading anyway--and griefers are the dark side of the experiment. Again, whether there's explicit meaning behind an individual griefer's actions or not. The problem remains though that there's no effective way currently for the OHOL society--people working together for the collective good--to counter the forces of regression--griefers.

Go! Bwah! · 2019-09-19 02:13:43

sigmen4020 wrote:

Who in the world thinks that being griefed is fun? They must extremely masochistic.

I always thought it was funny when I got killed. Somebody actually cares enough about this silly little game to go around stabbing people?! You don't think that's hilarious?

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