The end condition changes and gender tweaks worked!

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-24 16:04:12

Most recent graph (for a 20-hour arc):

The arc was 20 hours, but was interrupted by the update yesterday, so the last portion of the arc was 16 hours (the last 8 hours of which are shown in this graph).

That graph looks MUCH more balanced than the ones we saw before. Doling out girl babies when the number of fertile females in a family gets low is working.

But wait! It looks like there were 4 fams left at the end! What's going on there?

This:

L4 | Tue Sep 24 12:02:59 2019 (238 ms) | general | Local apocalypse triggered:  Too many babies per player inside barrier: 33 players, 11 babies, 0.333333 ratio, 0.330000 max ratio

In fact, this has been the reason for both of the most recent arc ends:

L4 | Mon Sep 23 14:49:36 2019 (48 ms) | general | Local apocalypse triggered:  Too many babies per player inside barrier: 42 players, 14 babies, 0.333333 ratio, 0.330000 max ratio

L4 | Tue Sep 24 12:02:59 2019 (238 ms) | general | Local apocalypse triggered:  Too many babies per player inside barrier: 33 players, 11 babies, 0.333333 ratio, 0.330000 max ratio

Going back before that, to Sunday, we do see:

L4 | Sun Sep 22 17:48:09 2019 (406 ms) | general | Local apocalypse triggered:  Too few families left

So let's take a look at that graph too:

Hmm... that one looks more like the old pattern.

What about the one in between, that ended on Sept 23 with too many babies?

Anyway, I'll definitely up that trigger to 50% instead of 33% (that's one adult per bb, which is easily enough).

Dodge · 2019-09-24 16:15:08

Interesting so the recent arc ends where due to too many babies per player and not families dying out.

Shouldn't the condition be too many babies dying per player and not simply getting born, since if they stay alive until childhood it's not an issue if they get born.

Also babies would be equal to account login to avoid same players teaming and using /die or running multiple times to reset the arc.

DestinyCall · 2019-09-24 16:19:33

I'm confused. What was the goal that was achieved by these arcs?

Phuckoff04 · 2019-09-24 16:39:15

There were so many murders that it turned the greater adult population back into babies.

BladeWoods · 2019-09-24 16:48:30

I'd like to echo Dodge's idea, too many babies dying (not from /die) sounds like a better method of detecting unplayability than just too many babies.

Last edited by BladeWoods (2019-09-24 16:48:39)

CatX · 2019-09-24 16:54:21

BladeWoods wrote:

I'd like to echo Dodge's idea, too many babies dying (not from /die) sounds like a better method of detecting unplayability than just too many babies.

Just please note that the end condition will trigger griefers. If "number of babies dead" is in that equation in any way, shape or form, griefers will kill babies.

If number of families is in that equation, they will end families.

If number of carrots planted is in that equation, they will plant carrots. (Well perhaps not.)

Anhigen · 2019-09-24 17:00:00

DestinyCall wrote:

I'm confused. What was the goal that was achieved by these arcs?

Families were dying out because of genetic drift; over time males tend to build up in families as they terminate female to female chains. So, too few females were being born into families, with low populations, in order to sustain them. Eventually all players would feed into two big families, not by choice, but because those were the families that had large enough populations to randomly generate the number of females required to self sustain. That pooling of players is now being mitigated very successfully and a new end condition is causing the arcs to prematurely end--babies per adults.

Very cool to see how quickly this change was executed. And what's even more wonderful is that it's giving hard working Eves a chance at having their families make it--we're also seeing more families survive into the mid game. Families are surviving thanks to skill not RNG and that's great to see!

Last edited by Anhigen (2019-09-24 17:06:08)

Dodge · 2019-09-24 17:02:38

CatX wrote:

BladeWoods wrote:
I'd like to echo Dodge's idea, too many babies dying (not from /die) sounds like a better method of detecting unplayability than just too many babies.
Just please note that the end condition will trigger griefers. If "number of babies dead" is in that equation in any way, shape or form, griefers will kill babies.
If number of families is in that equation, they will end families.
If number of carrots planted is in that equation, they will plant carrots. (Well perhaps not.)

That's true for any condition that has players actions accounted into it.

The current one is the same, killing players = babies getting born.

But if you add another layer then they have to kill players + kill them again when they are babies.

It's easy to find players to kill but targetting specifically babies makes it that they only have a window of 4 minutes to find as many babies and kill them.

So if you mass murder a village you will kill players in all sorts of growth stage (baby, child, adult etc) but you will only find a couple of babies, murdering them wont reset the arc and the dead players will spawn somewhere else as baby but not trigger the reset unlike currently.

It would make it much harder for them since they would have to plan coordinated attacks in different villages at the same time, compared to now where killing a village will by consequence spawn babies and reset arc since killed players will respawn as babies.

pein · 2019-09-24 17:14:50

Yeah, I like the possible fertile female count to 3, not sure what it means, but it's good to increase odds to females when it's very low

as for end condition, too fast and too random
i would rather like a win condition not a losing condition
anything from wonder rush to tech level to amassing enough wealth
like offering resources for shrines, and within a half hour you would get a reward for family, points/coins, whatever
step to next level and get more points, then when you reach the limit the world burns
maybe give the chance to a family to blow up the rift and go out while others are doomed inside if cannot get out in time

Anhigen · 2019-09-24 17:39:22

Dodge wrote:

BladeWoods wrote:
I'd like to echo Dodge's idea, too many babies dying (not from /die) sounds like a better method of detecting unplayability than just too many babies.
[...] killing players = babies getting born.

I would like to see the data on player retention after deaths before that change--I don't think those numbers are as closely related as you guys suggest. Players being killed or griefed after 40 minutes of play, I would assume, aren't immediately jumping back into another 60 minute session, potentially meeting and playing with those griefers again. Child mortality is also really closely linked to new players--personally I've watched half a dozen new players die while I was showing them around camp because they ignored their starvation meters (also... am I a bad mom?!?)--and if (and when) OHOL hits bursts of new players joining, say after promotions or cons, the following arcs might not have enough experienced players living past childhood to prevent constant resets. As the game is harder during the Eve Age that end condition seems primed to cycle us through premature apocalypses over and over.

Babies per adults, I think, is more closely linked to players logging in than reincarnation. It's an "interesting" end condition in the first place but I think changing it from 33% to 50% will help significantly.

I would also like to point out that Griefers could just use their remaining lives to "pump up baby deaths" by simply starving themselves--they wouldn't even need to kill anyone. Got 10 lives to waste? Help end the arc.

DestinyCall · 2019-09-24 17:40:25

pein wrote:

step to next level and get more points, then when you reach the limit the world burns

To me, the server wipe feels like a punishment. I hate losing everything I've built. It isn't something to strive toward, it is something avoid. I mourn all the work that I've put into virtual towns getting wiped clean every time I log out.

I thought one of the goals of the Rift was to give everything a greater sense of permanency and meaning. But if anything, it has the opposite effect. Dead towns used to exist for weeks or months between server wipes. Now we wipe constantly and nothing ever lasts longer than a day or two. It is really frustrating and depressing.

It wouldn't matter if the goal was to build ten bell towers to trigger reset instead of killing ten families to trigger the wipe. It is still the same thing as building an apocalypse tower.

This should NOT be our goal.

Anhigen · 2019-09-24 17:46:49

pein wrote:

Yeah, I like the possible fertile female count to 3, not sure what it means, but it's good to increase odds to females when it's very low
as for end condition, too fast and too random
i would rather like a win condition not a losing condition
anything from wonder rush to tech level to amassing enough wealth
like offering resources for shrines, and within a half hour you would get a reward for family, points/coins, whatever
step to next level and get more points, then when you reach the limit the world burns
maybe give the chance to a family to blow up the rift and go out while others are doomed inside if cannot get out in time

I'd like positive end states as well, but I think what's being worked on right now is tweaking the numbers so that we can get to a depleted rift. It's kind of a final stage to this "rift" experiment--what happens when resources become scarce. It's survival again, but now there is scavenging and town hopping. Maybe families fight over the remaining bits or pool what they have together just to survive. I think that's being explored right now.

We already know players have the motivation to end arcs--that's being expressed almost daily with how quickly arcs were ending--so I think, right now, it's about seeing what numbers and values have to be changed to get us to "end game" scenarios so that tech can be added to delay or speed up those different scenarios. Presently the arcs are not lasting in a consistent enough manner to even explore those options, so adding content that could take 5 IRL days of play to complete (like building wonders for all to marvel at... or nukes that lead to mutually assured destruction!!!!) is kind of pointless as we don't even make it 5 days. The game is still in a pretty rickety state but it's getting better!

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-24 18:06:23

Yes, it's getting close.

What was successful in this experiment was that first graph in the original post.

A good way into the arc, there were still FIVE STRIPES in the graph. That means five families alive up to the seven hour mark. That's some kind of record.

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-24 18:12:07

Okay, the end trigger is now this:

If more than 66% of the rift population is made up of helpless babies

Thus, if there are 2 bb for every non-bb player, things have gotten really bad.

That's a pretty extreme end condition. It's live now. We'll see what happens.

(There's still the 1-fam-left end condition too.... but that's much harder to reach now, given the gender distribution fix that is in place.)

Dodge · 2019-09-24 18:16:21

Anhigen wrote:

Babies per adults, I think, is more closely linked to players logging in than reincarnation. It's an "interesting" end condition in the first place but I think changing it from 33% to 50% will help significantly.
I would also like to point out that Griefers could just use their remaining lives to "pump up baby deaths" by simply starving themselves--they wouldn't even need to kill anyone. Got 10 lives to waste? Help end the arc.

Two precisions:

It would be babies death per number of players on server, so basically the same as now but with an extra safety layer

It would be baby death per account, so one account dying multiple time as baby to try to reset the arc would only count as one death.

DestinyCall · 2019-09-24 21:25:07

Out of curiosity, what happens if there are NO fertile females left on the map? Like if all of the adult population is adult males or infertile females - would that immediately trigger the apocalypse when people try to be born into a dead world or do you need to wait for one of the families to finish dying out completely? In the meantime, where do the new players go if they can't be born on BigServer ... are they redirected onto the low pop servers?

And what if the females are too young, but still alive - I'm guessing that would trigger apocolypse from too many babies on one mother, but maybe not, since the adult population might still be higher.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-09-24 21:26:26)

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-24 21:30:18

If there are no fertile mothers at all after the Eve window closes, then there's an apocalypse.

The last player coming in spawns as Eve (the trigger player), but other players trying to come in get a "server shutting down" message until the apoc is over, I think.

DestinyCall · 2019-09-24 21:34:11

Does that mean you don't really need to kill the last girl, just the last adult female?

(I'm asking for a friend)

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-09-24 21:34:30)

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-24 22:34:19

Yeah, if all fertile females die, and someone tries to spawn (after the Eve window is closed), the apoc happens.

distillerz · 2019-09-24 23:02:58

Arc end, by number of babies ratio..... Is that make any sense?

Coconut Fruit · 2019-09-24 23:11:09

distillerz wrote:

Arc end, by number of babies ratio..... Is that make any sense?

If there is enough food one person can feed even ten babies. I see this mechanic senseless too. Babies need only three minutes to get full worker potential.

pein · 2019-09-25 04:48:11

Well, that carries the fact that they end up as babies. That scenario is more likely to happen if most fertile females are killed, someone has lot of female kids, then the number of incoming/reincarnated players results in a crazy spam for those few girls, up to a point where they can't feed all of them.

Happened to my daughter, she had 45 kids. Happened to me that I didn't have any for long time, I think 3 sons up to 37, and they didn't even stay. Then at 37 I had like 15 babies then the apoc triggered (the one before the 8-day arc)

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-09-24 16:04:12

The end condition changes and gender tweaks worked!

#2 2019-09-24 16:15:08

Re: The end condition changes and gender tweaks worked!

#3 2019-09-24 16:19:33

Re: The end condition changes and gender tweaks worked!

#4 2019-09-24 16:39:15

Re: The end condition changes and gender tweaks worked!

#5 2019-09-24 16:48:30

Re: The end condition changes and gender tweaks worked!

#6 2019-09-24 16:54:21

Re: The end condition changes and gender tweaks worked!

#7 2019-09-24 17:00:00

Re: The end condition changes and gender tweaks worked!

#8 2019-09-24 17:02:38

Re: The end condition changes and gender tweaks worked!

#9 2019-09-24 17:14:50

Re: The end condition changes and gender tweaks worked!

#10 2019-09-24 17:39:22

Re: The end condition changes and gender tweaks worked!

#11 2019-09-24 17:40:25

Re: The end condition changes and gender tweaks worked!

#12 2019-09-24 17:46:49

Re: The end condition changes and gender tweaks worked!

#13 2019-09-24 18:06:23

Re: The end condition changes and gender tweaks worked!

#14 2019-09-24 18:12:07

Re: The end condition changes and gender tweaks worked!

#15 2019-09-24 18:16:21

Re: The end condition changes and gender tweaks worked!

#16 2019-09-24 21:25:07

Re: The end condition changes and gender tweaks worked!

#17 2019-09-24 21:30:18

Re: The end condition changes and gender tweaks worked!

#18 2019-09-24 21:34:11

Re: The end condition changes and gender tweaks worked!

#19 2019-09-24 22:34:19

Re: The end condition changes and gender tweaks worked!

#20 2019-09-24 23:02:58

Re: The end condition changes and gender tweaks worked!

#21 2019-09-24 23:11:09

Re: The end condition changes and gender tweaks worked!

#22 2019-09-25 04:48:11

Re: The end condition changes and gender tweaks worked!

Board footer