Engine Compromise

miskas · 2019-09-27 20:46:19

jasonrohrer wrote:

One idea that comes to mind is a "pass through" box that can be built on a fence. A container that can be accessed from both sides of the fence.

YES PLZ!

FENCE+ board + rope = fenced Box
fenced Box +saw= slotted box ...etc

(a fenced box could be removed with Shaft but the fence should remain)

Spoonwood · 2019-09-27 20:55:26

jasonrohrer wrote:

When I say "fences", I mean fences protecting the well site from the non-trusted members of the family. Same with the iron mine. The miner should have access, and pass that access on to trusted few.
I know this sounds impractical to many of you, but this is the kind of deep, planned social interaction that I'm hoping to engender in this game.

You're naive about people in games doing that sort of thing. Worse, you just posted an image for griefers to copy.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Now, this kind of thing is what I'd love to see in the game. And as I look at that screen shot, I see tons of problems. The fences take up so much space! Obviously, it would be nice if fences and walls were between tiles instead of on them, but that's a pretty tall order in terms of changing the engine at this point.

You're simply too lazy then. I mean you've claimed that you want to make 'the greatest game ever', but anytime there's something about how walls/fences take up space, you shuck and jive and claim it's too much work. People who perform at the highest levels simply don't say things like that, or get rid of the pretense of making the highest quality product and recognize their limitations for the amount of work they want to put in.

Matbat · 2019-09-27 21:05:44

jasonrohrer wrote:

I know this sounds impractical to many of you, but this is the kind of deep, planned social interaction that I'm hoping to engender in this game.
The "water guy" could build a fence around the well with an "outer" area, also gated, containing a cistern. He would own both gates. He'd periodically open the inner gate, run the well, and fill the cistern. Then he'd open the outer gate to let all the farmers have water.
https://i.imgur.com/9e1V9TX.png

Sorry, but if you expect a family or a single person to dedicate their life to being the "water person" that's not going to work, it'd work in a large town of like 30-50 people where government and such would actually be needed and work but not little villages of 5-10 people.

If the above picture and scenario actually happened I'd just make a new well or gather wild water as to not have to bother going through a person who might not be there or expects some role play treatment to get water, if I didn't just straight up ask for access or execute (killing with village consensus) them for blocking off the well.

Only (primal) communism works right now, we don't have enough players.

Lastly it'd just like to comment, it's strange you'd post a picture like that thinking how you described it would work, do you not play enough of your own game to know what's passable and impassable?

DestinyCall · 2019-09-27 21:32:16

Whatever wrote:

^ this is the thing i would hate to see in the game,
also the cistern is blocking the gate making the well unreachable.

Water guy will be out of a job REEEAL quick when the cistern goes dry and he can't get to the well to refill it. And then it will be two hours waiting for that fence to decay.

Fortunately, you can just kill water guy and break the cistern to regain access to the well immediately. Problem solved.

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-27 22:25:05

Yeah, I guess that is more of a conceptual diagram.

It wouldn't work for a whole bunch of reasons (blocking by cistern is one I didn't notice before).

Would be so nice if fences could be on tile boundaries. That would fix loads of issues.

I wish wish wish I had envisioned the importance of "wall" when I designed the engine, and made a special case for it...

If walls are between tiles, then they're not really on a grid.... I suppose they are on a kind of shifted grid. The question is how to specify their placement and interact with them.

Everything currently in the game, including walls and fences, piggybacks on the base "grid of tiles" system. When you go to make a fence, you're clicking on a tile object and transforming it into another object in that same tile. It's very nice that things work that way, and allows us to build all kinds of interactions with that as an atom...

Floors are a separate layer. But they are still aligned with the tile grid, so making a floor is not ambiguous. You carry out an action on a tile, and it specifies a floor for that tile.

Walls could similarly be on a separate layer without too much trouble. The problem is that they are divorced from a specific tile. In fact, one tile can have four walls around it.

Maybe I'm not thinking about this clearly. If it really is a shifted grid, then each tile has only one wall (in it's upper left corner, for example).

I'd still have to rethink the "blocks walking" code.

Dodge · 2019-09-28 00:00:59

jasonrohrer wrote:

I wish wish wish I had envisioned the importance of "wall" when I designed the engine, and made a special case for it...
If walls are between tiles, then they're not really on a grid.... I suppose they are on a kind of shifted grid. The question is how to specify their placement and interact with them.

Isn't it possible to make a sub-grid?

For example tile 1 is whole when there is regular objects on it but i there is a wall on it, it becomes 1a 1b 1c where 1b is where the wall would be.

So you could walk on 1a and 1c but not 1b

Basically dividing a tile into multiple tinier sub-tiles like a container in container, similar to a basket in a box.

pein · 2019-09-28 04:52:37

Never understood wick burners as they never get used, they are a middle tech between the newcomer wells and engine wells but it's so inconsistent and flawed, that nobody makes oil before well engine, so they never get used.

Making engines is a lifetime work, but at least you can plan on iron cost.
Getting oil is random, so is more likely that multiple people got to try it, sometimes it needs 2 pips, sometimes it needs 5 or 7, even 9 pipes.
Now so many things can go wrong. Nobody helps on charcoal, kindling, nobody makes cisterns, it's a lot of stress to even start the process. If you don't finish the oil before you die, you might not find a kid who understands the process, the location of the tarry spot can get forgotten, the information about the started oil pump jack can get lost.

I did the same thing as getting water usually means upgrading wells.
Engine well without oil is useless, and a sitting engine won't do anything, just creates an iron shortage.

As you changed that we can get more iron, it makes sense that the first engine always goes to the iron mine. And experience shows that no engine will stay there. People steal it and install it on wells, often in other cities, random locations. On the 8 day arc there were 2 cities with multiple engine wells, without access to oil and road to tarry spot. People troll the few engine makers by ruining their work. Interacting with stuff you don't understand shouldn't be so easy. This is clearly a "don't do this" thing which was removed from game for most part. Also, the sheep shearing got changed so newbies won't ruin compost cycle. This can get people killed. It's already stressful when you try to make high tech with no help, no resources, no perquisites like kindling, cisterns, a whole life of focused work, and the success isn't guaranteed so it's very stressful, stuff like people making swords from the prepared rods, walking around with decoration knives and swords can annoy engine and oil makers to no end. I was often threatened by idiots to make them knives from limited iron, got rods stolen, got useless tools made from my steel bars. It's totally understandable if you just stab them to don't have to argue about things that should be clear as day. If you got no water, the least of your worry is to have a decoration sword on babies. Most often i recycle swords into pipes to get oil.

So yeah, requiring oil before installing engines, it's a clear logical step, and as no one does it right now, it should be enforced.
That would help on iron usage, as people could make kerosene then plan for a new engine and some shovels and hoes.

Btw no building under 7x7 is decent enough to make work easier. So player FOV changes are needed for any room plans.
There is no reason locking away the water. Human body is 65% water and cant survive without it for more than a few days. The game has no thirst mechanic but most food needs water to produce. There is a bit of disadvantage using water on less effective foods like berry bushes instead of pies, but limiting water access has no use. And a water boi job would be a boring task to do. Also, charging money for water is not something you see IRL, nestlee trying to get ownership of the water is idiotic. America banning rain collection is idiotic. Free and clean water should be reachable everywhere, in Europe is quite normal that every restaurant or pub gives water for free. Generally filtering, piping and packaging has a cost only. Also in Germany beer is cheaper than lot of other countries have their water cost
I can see limiting water usage, or portioning it for people but i don't see water as main trading resource.
If you are in a situation where the town makes water inaccessible, and you need to beg for water to do work, 80% of players wouldn't work, the rest would just leave the city and find one where water can be accessed freely.

wondible · 2019-09-28 12:42:10

I've sometimes thought that instead of building walls, you would build "indoors" in the way you build floor. Maybe not with the existing floors, or make new floor for use in berry fields and gardens. The engine would check for changes between indoors and outdoors instead of blocking tiles.

The point I always get stuck on is doors. I can see having a doormat that counts as both so it can path through. But it seems like it would be easy to lock yourself in to a 1x1, or perhaps accidentally removing the doormat in the way people sometimes remove a door.

Lava · 2019-09-30 00:49:23

pein wrote:

Never understood wick burners as they never get used, they are a middle tech between the newcomer wells and engine wells but it's so inconsistent and flawed, that nobody makes oil before well engine, so they never get used.
Making engines is a lifetime work, but at least you can plan on iron cost.
Getting oil is random, so is more likely that multiple people got to try it, sometimes it needs 2 pips, sometimes it needs 5 or 7, even 9 pipes.
Now so many things can go wrong. Nobody helps on charcoal, kindling, nobody makes cisterns, it's a lot of stress to even start the process. If you don't finish the oil before you die, you might not find a kid who understands the process, the location of the tarry spot can get forgotten, the information about the started oil pump jack can get lost.
I did the same thing as getting water usually means upgrading wells.
Engine well without oil is useless, and a sitting engine won't do anything, just creates an iron shortage.
As you changed that we can get more iron, it makes sense that the first engine always goes to the iron mine. And experience shows that no engine will stay there. People steal it and install it on wells, often in other cities, random locations. On the 8 day arc there were 2 cities with multiple engine wells, without access to oil and road to tarry spot. People troll the few engine makers by ruining their work. Interacting with stuff you don't understand shouldn't be so easy. This is clearly a "don't do this" thing which was removed from game for most part. Also, the sheep shearing got changed so newbies won't ruin compost cycle. This can get people killed. It's already stressful when you try to make high tech with no help, no resources, no perquisites like kindling, cisterns, a whole life of focused work, and the success isn't guaranteed so it's very stressful, stuff like people making swords from the prepared rods, walking around with decoration knives and swords can annoy engine and oil makers to no end. I was often threatened by idiots to make them knives from limited iron, got rods stolen, got useless tools made from my steel bars. It's totally understandable if you just stab them to don't have to argue about things that should be clear as day. If you got no water, the least of your worry is to have a decoration sword on babies. Most often i recycle swords into pipes to get oil.
So yeah, requiring oil before installing engines, it's a clear logical step, and as no one does it right now, it should be enforced.
That would help on iron usage, as people could make kerosene then plan for a new engine and some shovels and hoes.
Btw no building under 7x7 is decent enough to make work easier. So player FOV changes are needed for any room plans.
There is no reason locking away the water. Human body is 65% water and cant survive without it for more than a few days. The game has no thirst mechanic but most food needs water to produce. There is a bit of disadvantage using water on less effective foods like berry bushes instead of pies, but limiting water access has no use. And a water boi job would be a boring task to do. Also, charging money for water is not something you see IRL, nestlee trying to get ownership of the water is idiotic. America banning rain collection is idiotic. Free and clean water should be reachable everywhere, in Europe is quite normal that every restaurant or pub gives water for free. Generally filtering, piping and packaging has a cost only. Also in Germany beer is cheaper than lot of other countries have their water cost
I can see limiting water usage, or portioning it for people but i don't see water as main trading resource.
If you are in a situation where the town makes water inaccessible, and you need to beg for water to do work, 80% of players wouldn't work, the rest would just leave the city and find one where water can be accessed freely.

Jason doesn't give a shit. He relies on his predictions rather than actual experienced player feed back that's saying that engines can be stolen so easily. He doesn't understand that engines are never guarded by a fence and even if they are, they are taken by family themselves and put into other towns wells for the troll. Instead of making one easy solution of making Engine mines permanent he dilly dallies around the problem ignoring the fact THEY CAN STILL BE STOLEN WITH A FENCE.

BladeWoods · 2019-09-30 02:04:55

jasonrohrer wrote:

Yeah, I guess that is more of a conceptual diagram.
It wouldn't work for a whole bunch of reasons (blocking by cistern is one I didn't notice before).
Would be so nice if fences could be on tile boundaries. That would fix loads of issues.
I wish wish wish I had envisioned the importance of "wall" when I designed the engine, and made a special case for it...
If walls are between tiles, then they're not really on a grid.... I suppose they are on a kind of shifted grid. The question is how to specify their placement and interact with them.
Everything currently in the game, including walls and fences, piggybacks on the base "grid of tiles" system. When you go to make a fence, you're clicking on a tile object and transforming it into another object in that same tile. It's very nice that things work that way, and allows us to build all kinds of interactions with that as an atom...
Floors are a separate layer. But they are still aligned with the tile grid, so making a floor is not ambiguous. You carry out an action on a tile, and it specifies a floor for that tile.
Walls could similarly be on a separate layer without too much trouble. The problem is that they are divorced from a specific tile. In fact, one tile can have four walls around it.
Maybe I'm not thinking about this clearly. If it really is a shifted grid, then each tile has only one wall (in it's upper left corner, for example).
I'd still have to rethink the "blocks walking" code.

It might be clunky, but walls could be between tiles and don't need to be divorced from a specific tile. Every east-west wall could be like a floor on the tile below it. And every north-south wall could be like a floor on the tile to the right. With another kind of floor for a tile with both north-south wall and east-west wall.

Last edited by BladeWoods (2019-09-30 02:05:59)

Dantox · 2019-09-30 05:01:08

I honestly wouldnt mind to have a month of content drought to have some core mechanics like walls and fences being tweaked on the code; I think it would bring more content opportunities for not only jason to work on but the players aswell, i think it would be pretty good to make the engine more flexible.

Anhigen · 2019-09-30 05:45:41

Why can't walls be floors then?

You build a "floor" with a wall on one end, "interact" with it again and the entire floor rotates 90 degrees, like when you cycle through floor stakes shapes by hitting it with a stone. Building corner pieces requires more materials, building doorways and windows requires specific materials. The wall can then just be at one edge of the floor, making it appear is if it's between tiles. There has to be a way that pathing can recognize that this tile doesn't have access to the tiles on the other side of the "wall", leaving that tile open for players an objects but disrupting paths.

Fencing could follow a similar design, though it won't be as fast as the current model. You could lay fence but then you'd need to hammer it into the direction that you would need, and corner pieces couldn't simply be added by putting two fences on the same tile. But maybe you just have to build corner pieces and then move them into position. That extra step could also help curb some of the more arbitrary fence lines some towns have. Hell you might even have to clear that tree out of the way instead of just laying a bunch of random fences down since you'll create too many right angles.

There's gotta be something helpful in here.

Last edited by Anhigen (2019-09-30 05:58:06)

One Hour One Life Forums

#26 2019-09-27 20:46:19

Re: Engine Compromise

#27 2019-09-27 20:55:26

Re: Engine Compromise

#28 2019-09-27 21:05:44

Re: Engine Compromise

#29 2019-09-27 21:32:16

Re: Engine Compromise

#30 2019-09-27 22:25:05

Re: Engine Compromise

#31 2019-09-28 00:00:59

Re: Engine Compromise

#32 2019-09-28 04:52:37

Re: Engine Compromise

#33 2019-09-28 12:42:10

Re: Engine Compromise

#34 2019-09-30 00:49:23

Re: Engine Compromise

#35 2019-09-30 02:04:55

Re: Engine Compromise

#36 2019-09-30 05:01:08

Re: Engine Compromise

#37 2019-09-30 05:45:41

Re: Engine Compromise

Board footer