If genetic fitness actually matters, is life limit still necessary?

jcwilk · 2019-10-31 06:26:00

One thing that would be really compelling to me and make me a lot more motivated to care about my children would be is if there were features around tracking their progress after death, it's really difficult to find any info about it through the site... Maybe mostly due to performance issues of the tree display, but like, just to imagine an extreme, if there was a mario-kart-split-screen type of thing after i died and it kept getting more and more split as more and more of my descendants multiply I would be absolutely captivated and probably watch it for like 6 hours haha. Even seeing a "living tree" on the death screen where i could see which of my babies are alive, which died, why they died, and as they die and have babies of their own it keeps it updated would be really great.

Not trying to dictate features here or anything like that, just trying to give input on some types of experiences would make me personally more invested in my children. Hm if the data is all public access I wonder if that kind of tool could be built externally *thoughtful chin scratching*

MrShuriken · 2019-10-31 09:35:34

How bout just segregating Genes into different categories
You start at 0 (as usual)
There are different categories for different ages.
For YOU
0-20, 21-35, 36-45, 46-60

If you live to 60 when your genes are at 0 you gain 4 points
If you live to 60 when your genes are 27 you gain 3 points
If you live to 20 when your genes are 55 you lose 4 points ect ect

For your child
0-3, 4-14, 15-25, 26-39 40+
Children bonus scores are halved, to make up for the easier point gainage, negatives are the same
It stops counting after 40.
Therefore if your child lives to 40 when you are at genes 0 you gain 2.5 points
if your child dies at age 5 when you are genes 55 you lose 3 points
If your child dies at age 30 when you are genes 0 you gain 4 points etc etc

If someone doesn't move, use an item or anything that signals they are at their screen for X amount of time, their score won't count against you.
if someone dies over 100 tiles away from you or your death point it shouldn't count.

That's my 2 cents on the genes

Tbf I think a crafting point system should be used instead of other players but :Shrug:

MrShuriken · 2019-10-31 09:42:18

Also so people take Genes seriously you should be able to be an eve with a gene score of lower than 40, meaning people have to be nice to start a lovely town.
Additionally, I think a bonus 30% speed could be up for grabs for high genes. Only getting a bonus if your Score is over 30 (1% per gene over 30)
Moreover really high gene players should be spottable with a halo over their head if they type /Praise
Meaning high gene players (Over 45) would be spottable if they wanted to show their niceness

jasonrohrer · 2019-10-31 16:13:50

Yeah, the living to old age part is a little weird, and maybe I do need to change that, so that anything over 40 "counts" as full score.

However, I'm trying to capture something else here (especially with the big stomachs in old age), which is how "fit" you and your people are as animals.

I'm also simulating the Gay Uncle gene, which gives your nieces and nephews a boost. Grandparents living long after fertility (in real life) probably arose for similar reasons. Grandparents that drop dead at 40 aren't optimal. If they remain productive until 65 at least, they give their offspring a huge boost. So in order to model this, without getting too complicated, counting 60 as "full score" is the simplest approach.

Coconut, solving the problem of artistic coherence in video games is the whole point of OHOL and of my entire career. I get that most people just want to play games for fun. And most people just want to blow off steam at the end of the day with a mindless TV show, or read some romance novel on the beach.

But that doesn't mean there aren't TV shows or books that serve other purposes. We can have both Avengers Endgame and Synecdoche New York. We can have both Fifty Shades of Gray and Lolita. We can have both Perfect Strangers and Twin Peaks. I REALLY love Fifty Shades of Gray and Perfect Strangers. On the other hand, Synecdoche New York and Lolita are absolute masterpieces and sky-shattering sublime art.

Whatever Lolita is doing, and whatever purpose it serves, we don't have many video games that do something like that or serve that purpose.

My career is about figuring out HOW video games can do something like this by leveraging their own unique capabilities.

And I believe that OHOL comes closer to doing this than any other game in existence. It's not like a story, or a movie. It's definitely a game, through and through. But in its best moments, it gives us brief glimpses of the full, unique artistic potential of games.

The idea that games might have this potential is not a new one (click to enlarge):

But the path to the top of this mountain was much longer and much more winding than anyone anticipated. We're still not there yet, not with OHOL or any other game. Not even close.

happynova · 2019-10-31 16:24:51

Coconut Fruit wrote:

There would be "gl" without "bye" if we could communicate through whole life, even without being next to each other. To me it would be much better if we had "unralistic" communication system,

I'm not sure how workable it would be to make us able to communicate in giant paragraphs or anything.

But you know what would also really, really, really help? If I could tell at a glance who my kids actually are. As it is, most people in town look alike, so I either have to remember what they're wearing -- which could change -- or take the time to scroll over someone to find out whether they're my beloved daughter or my uninteresting sixth cousin.

I know making new skins is time-consuming for Jason, but making them a high priority seems like an extremely good idea to me.

Saolin · 2019-10-31 16:42:29

happynova wrote:

Coconut Fruit wrote:
There would be "gl" without "bye" if we could communicate through whole life, even without being next to each other. To me it would be much better if we had "unralistic" communication system,
I'm not sure how workable it would be to make us able to communicate in giant paragraphs or anything.
But you know what would also really, really, really help? If I could tell at a glance who my kids actually are. As it is, most people in town look alike, so I either have to remember what they're wearing -- which could change -- or take the time to scroll over someone to find out whether they're my beloved daughter or my uninteresting sixth cousin.
I know making new skins is time-consuming for Jason, but making them a high priority seems like an extremely good idea to me.

Yeah I agree, some kind of at-a-glance visual indicator. Even just a colored outline or something. Your own family tends to look exactly the same as everyone else, and you run past each other without even noticing.

Dodge · 2019-10-31 16:48:37

Tbh i think the genetic fitness is flawed, it's supposed to calculate how well you take care of your kids but when they are adults their life is their own and you're not responsible for what they do, unless you're talking about a deeper level with education, knowledge etc but that's not really in the game.

Currently the genetic score should count up to 3 years old since at 4 they say bye and live their life, unless you want sequestration to be a viable and best strategy. Let me just emprison my kids and force feed them, that proves i'm a good mom since i care right?

Also most importantly there is no notion of home since buildings/shelters are not needed, your kids are not coming back home since there is no home, if building where an essential part of the game then the notion of having a family house that your kids are part of and would see them frequently come back would make more sense.

And you wouldn't want non direct family members in that home since they dont count for your score and would eat the food that is supposed to be for your kids.

Maybe the actual concept of big lineages is bad since you have an inherent connection with everyone around you which encourages big collective villages instead of smaller private properties.

IRL people in the same town are not all related (at all), having much more lineages but smaller in number of people, that would have to live together (meaning in the same area) where the ressources are (wells), would be much more interesting, no?

jasonrohrer · 2019-10-31 16:56:31

Yes, I have thought about this. I'm still waiting for some kind of visual indicator that's not totally immersion-breaking to bubble-up. Would be nice to have everyone who counted for your gene score easily distinguishable.

Maybe, to prevent it from swamping the visual aesthetics, it could be something that you could toggle... like hold the G key to see markers over your offspring's heads?

This is like the blue arrows that appear as crafting hints only when you're actively tabbing... But I also want to steer clear of too many hidden features and keys. The blue arrows appear automatically for anyone who is tabbing through recipes.

One idea that just came to mind is some kind of tint to the whites of their eyes. I'm guessing that a light blue tint might look okay. So you could recognize your offspring by looking at their eyes.... Though for people with smaller eyes, it would be harder to see. Just tried it, though, and it's really hard to see even on big eyes, unless i make it very intense blue, and then it looks weird.

And yes, more characters are coming slowly over time, so that will help somewhat (though a lot of them change quite a bit with age---though they usually keep the same eyes throughout life until 55).

jasonrohrer · 2019-10-31 17:11:57

Dodge, there are no family homes because people have no reason to care about family.

Or at least it could be causally linked in that way. How do we know what's causing what?

You're saying that we don't care about family because we have no family homes, but why would we build homes if we don't care about our family?

If the survival of my offspring was my 100%, #1 priority, I bet I would play the game differently. I might try to set my kids up for success throughout their lives, whatever that means. And yes, I might lock my younger kids indoors for a while, and make sure they are well equipped before I let them head out. I might ask where they are going, and when they plan to be back.

Would locking your kids inside and force-feeding them for life be the most viable strategy? Maybe! But even that is more interesting that what's happening now with mother-child relations.

But here's the thing about that strategy, and it mirrors real life. If you do that to your kids, they will likely go AFK on you, and become zombies. You are going to die when they are age 20-46. And they will be AFK zombies for the next 14-40 years, unable to feed themselves. They won't make it to 60, which will end up dinging your score. So I'm sure the optimal strategy will involve balance between protectiveness and freedom-granting, so that your kids don't totally resent you and go AFK or plot to murder you. Mommy dearest...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX3uCuFKlqw

Pink Floyd wrote:

Hush now baby don't you cry
Mama's gonna make all of your
Nightmares come true
Mama's gonna put all of her fears into you
Mama's gonna keep you right here
Under her wing
she won't let you fly but she might let you sing
Mama will keep baby cosy and warm
Ooooh Babe Ooooh Babe Ooooh Babe
Of course Mama's gonna help build the wall

wondible · 2019-10-31 17:24:33

happynova wrote:

But you know what would also really, really, really help? If I could tell at a glance who my kids actually are. As it is, most people in town look alike, so I either have to remember what they're wearing -- which could change -- or take the time to scroll over someone to find out whether they're my beloved daughter or my uninteresting sixth cousin.

If you can bear to play without zoom for a bit to try it, I've got certain family relations in my mod (not tied to gene score specifically) Immersion-breaking hearts, as Jason would put it.

It doesn't change how I play much - "Hey a kid survived", "Awww mom is dead", "Oh, that is grandma" Its easier to use the familiar terms (son/mom/gma) in casual conversations, or figure out if I was the one who had a baby.

I've considered adding a separate marker for people that count for score (e.g. the gold ball), to help with picking a niece/nephew to pass down clothes to, for instance.

Coconut Fruit · 2019-10-31 17:29:42

This game is going in bad direction... Do whatever you want, I don't care anymore.

Dodge · 2019-10-31 17:31:19

jasonrohrer wrote:

why would we build homes if we don't care about our family?

Because having a shelter would be NECESSARY in order to survive and because not everyone around you would be related, so feeding them = less food for your own family.

But you would still cooperate with them because you need crafted ressources from them, but since they are not part of your family even lineage it wouldn't be a everything is shared dynamic it would be trade.

But currently shelters/houses are not a necessity for survival and everyone in the same village is related, both of those are untrue IRL so obviously something is not happening right since these variables are missing.

Then the caring about family part can be added alongside

Last edited by Dodge (2019-10-31 17:32:34)

miskas · 2019-10-31 17:43:47

jasonrohrer wrote:

Yes, I have thought about this. I'm still waiting for some kind of visual indicator that's not totally immersion-breaking to bubble-up. Would be nice to have everyone who counted for your gene score easily distinguishable.

what if on their neural state they smile? not this /happy but this also reddish chicks and maybe warm aura around them?
Red lips?

Last edited by miskas (2019-10-31 18:19:04)

StrongForce · 2019-10-31 17:46:26

If roleplay just a little I actually start caring
More incentive to roleplay would go a long way to increase the uniqueness of the life

Saolin · 2019-10-31 17:50:56

Dodge wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
why would we build homes if we don't care about our family?
Because having a shelter would be NECESSARY in order to survive and because not everyone around you would be related, so feeding them = less food for your own family.
But you would still cooperate with them because you need crafted ressources from them, but since they are not part of your family even lineage it wouldn't be a everything is shared dynamic it would be trade.
But currently shelters/houses are not a necessity for survival and everyone in the same village is related, both of those are untrue IRL so obviously something is not happening right since these variables are missing.
Then the caring about family part can be added alongside

A winter season where shelter is needed to stay warm, natural disaster where you need to seek shelter, or some kind of (more threatening than we currently have) animal attack to protect from. Building doors could have ownership or I guess lock and key, but that has a tendency to turn into a prison.

Also it would be beyond adorable if we had school for kids to attend. A teacher could explain and demonstrate various skills. The tool mechanic could even be worked in with it being an opportunity for kids to learn tools. Some students would eagerly learn, while others were rambunctious and distracting. Then the teacher would have a baby mid-lesson and run off to find clothes for the baby and no one would step in to replace her. I guess it would get kind of tedious if you had to go through that every life though. Well, It started off as a nice idea.

Last edited by Saolin (2019-10-31 17:57:29)

Dodge · 2019-10-31 17:53:35

Necessity is the difference between roleplay and realplay, you dont roleplay eating food in the game, you eat because otherwise you die.

Right now buildings/houses/properties are rolepaly because they are not a necessity, you build them to make a town "look pretty" or because you're bored.

Temperature mechanic is already used for clothes and having it even buffed for houses is not enough since clothes are wearable everywhere you go so they will always be superior to building a shelter.

But clothes dont recreate that feeling of security of having a place to stay for the night right?

Saolin · 2019-10-31 17:55:28

What's this "night" you speak of? I've never heard of it.

Kaveh · 2019-10-31 18:02:41

StrongForce wrote:

If roleplay just a little I actually start caring
More incentive to roleplay would go a long way to increase the uniqueness of the life

For sure, RP makes me care about the other players a lot more, whether they're family or not. Having a visual marker for family would be an easy way to push RP a little bit more.

What about a little heart on their chest (that also shows over clothes)? Was gonna say a little floaty heart above their head, but /love exists so ye that'd just be confusing.

Last edited by Kaveh (2019-10-31 18:03:00)

StrongForce · 2019-10-31 18:32:36

Just a mark next to their name.
Mods already have colour code
And it works fine for me

Kaveh · 2019-10-31 18:40:35

I assume you play with some mod where you can always see the players name (without hovering over)? Cuz otherwise I don't see why a mark would help, it already says "your daughter" next to the name when I hover over.

juliakanakis · 2019-10-31 19:57:57

But Jason, people aren't just animals. Selective pressure applies to the spread of ideas just as much as to the spread of physical traits. Do you want to reward teaching kids? Or just feeding them? You should be able to adopt children and "get points" (or whatever) for the success of whoever you choose to invest in.

Anyway-

This game doesn't have true genetic competition because it doesn't have any actual genetic traits. I don't think you'll find players are actually motivated to behave (and *feel*) like parents because a score goes up (perks or no perks).

Proxying one desire based on another works, of course. But a better base-desire would be the desire to not see your hard work wasted. That's what leads fresh players (speaking from my own experience) to spam refresh the lineage page inbetween games. I want to see if what I contributed to ultimately succeeded (and pre-rift there were rarely two families in a town). What motivated me was the success of the town, not the lineage.

So why not tie the two together: players clearly want to continue their projects across lives. That desire needs to be rerouted. I'm an advocate of separate existence planes- one life per universe. However, you should be able to check in on a town only if your offspring still live there. Spectator mode (or even just a timelapse or a still) would buff the *other* game you're making: the game of watching the lineage page to see what happened to your kids.

I'd much rather have a profile full of screenshots of happy grandkids in their old age than a floating point number.
The only reason rational humans actually care for their kids is by ignoring the fact that the sun will eventually boil the oceans.
There is no *real* happy ending. You have to make a happy ending part way through the story and call that "the end". That's what humans want -- to believe they made a happy ending happen.

fug · 2019-10-31 20:48:53

jasonrohrer wrote:

Dodge, there are no family homes because people have no reason to care about family.

As others have said before there aren't homes because houses are basically aesthetic items you build to make things look nice. The static heat bonus you get is basically useless because no activity requires you to stay inside a building the entire time. Rooms are too small for you to really care as anything bigger than 6x6 suffers from cold areas so why would you make a giant room that takes up resources and space for the sake of it just looking nice?

Having rooms or building in the current game isn't much different than if we used the old trash pits to divide up animal pens. Sure walls would look nicer but trash pits would keep things out and always we easily expanded.

Unless you add activities that take time like fishing where you sit in one spot for an extended period of time buildings will always be useless. However, if you do create something where you stand in one spot we've already discovered the most optimal one tile building set up which means you'll see a bunch of random ass T shaped buildings instead of square ones.

As someone who has built my own personal home in different villages on the server in the past it makes for a cool activity but between buildings basically being useless and not having real decoration options why would people build houses? Lol.

StrongForce · 2019-10-31 21:03:20

Kaveh wrote:

it already says "your daughter" next to the name when I hover over.

A nephew can be in your score or not depending on if he was born after you and depending if it's from your big sister or little sister

happynova · 2019-10-31 22:20:30

jasonrohrer wrote:

Yes, I have thought about this. I'm still waiting for some kind of visual indicator that's not totally immersion-breaking to bubble-up. Would be nice to have everyone who counted for your gene score easily distinguishable.

Maybe they could have, I dunno, a necklace or something. You could call it the "family jewels."

Kaveh wrote:

I assume you play with some mod where you can always see the players name (without hovering over)? Cuz otherwise I don't see why a mark would help, it already says "your daughter" next to the name when I hover over.

Yes, and you have to stop, hover, look, and read, which can be an issue when you're in the middle of something, and is something I often forget to do. Oh, if I had a nickel for every time I wanted to talk to someone I'd just been working with again and realized I'd never gotten their name.

But it's particularly egregious when it comes to family members, who you'd think you really ought to instantly pick out in a crowd. True story: a few days ago my daughter was shot with an arrow. If I'd realized it was her sooner, I might have been able to save her, but I spent entirely too many precious seconds thinking it was some random stranger who'd been shot in a conflict I didn't care about before I realized it was her. Seeing your daughter shot in front of you really ought to be something you understand immediately!

Spoonwood · 2019-11-01 01:01:27

jasonrohrer wrote:

Coconut Fruit, the point is that I want player behavior to directly mirror what's thematically appropriate. Not because of roleplaying, but because of realplaying. Behaving in a thematically appropriate way should be optimal.
This is the holy grail of artistic coherence in game design.

It is no such thing. It creates ugly works which merely reflect the prejudices of the designer. People get to act as they choose when they play, and you should respect that.

jasonrohrer wrote:

The fact that players might react to this in-game with a shrug is thematically dissonant.

So what? That person is playing the game, not you Jason. They get to make the choice, not you Jason. You should respect their choices.

One Hour One Life Forums

#76 2019-10-31 06:26:00

Re: If genetic fitness actually matters, is life limit still necessary?

#77 2019-10-31 09:35:34

Re: If genetic fitness actually matters, is life limit still necessary?

#78 2019-10-31 09:42:18

Re: If genetic fitness actually matters, is life limit still necessary?

#79 2019-10-31 16:13:50

Re: If genetic fitness actually matters, is life limit still necessary?

#80 2019-10-31 16:24:51

Re: If genetic fitness actually matters, is life limit still necessary?

#81 2019-10-31 16:42:29

Re: If genetic fitness actually matters, is life limit still necessary?

#82 2019-10-31 16:48:37

Re: If genetic fitness actually matters, is life limit still necessary?

#83 2019-10-31 16:56:31

Re: If genetic fitness actually matters, is life limit still necessary?

#84 2019-10-31 17:11:57

Re: If genetic fitness actually matters, is life limit still necessary?

#85 2019-10-31 17:24:33

Re: If genetic fitness actually matters, is life limit still necessary?

#86 2019-10-31 17:29:42

Re: If genetic fitness actually matters, is life limit still necessary?

#87 2019-10-31 17:31:19

Re: If genetic fitness actually matters, is life limit still necessary?

#88 2019-10-31 17:43:47

Re: If genetic fitness actually matters, is life limit still necessary?

#89 2019-10-31 17:46:26

Re: If genetic fitness actually matters, is life limit still necessary?

#90 2019-10-31 17:50:56

Re: If genetic fitness actually matters, is life limit still necessary?

#91 2019-10-31 17:53:35

Re: If genetic fitness actually matters, is life limit still necessary?

#92 2019-10-31 17:55:28

Re: If genetic fitness actually matters, is life limit still necessary?

#93 2019-10-31 18:02:41

Re: If genetic fitness actually matters, is life limit still necessary?

#94 2019-10-31 18:32:36

Re: If genetic fitness actually matters, is life limit still necessary?

#95 2019-10-31 18:40:35

Re: If genetic fitness actually matters, is life limit still necessary?

#96 2019-10-31 19:57:57

Re: If genetic fitness actually matters, is life limit still necessary?

#97 2019-10-31 20:48:53

Re: If genetic fitness actually matters, is life limit still necessary?

#98 2019-10-31 21:03:20

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#99 2019-10-31 22:20:30

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#100 2019-11-01 01:01:27

Re: If genetic fitness actually matters, is life limit still necessary?

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