Coming Soon: Family Specialization

DestinyCall · 2019-11-14 00:36:16

On the upside, we won't need property fences. Build your town in a large enough desert and no one else will be able to bother you.

...

Or mor realistically, make a bell town because nobody likes dying from lack of rubber/sulfur/oil and losing access to horses.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-11-14 00:45:06)

jasonrohrer · 2019-11-14 00:58:50

Yeah, I may change the "can't pick up anythign" bit to something else.

Maybe you just can't interact with permanent or natural objects in that biome. I was going to say just "permanent", but then most of the desert valuables are loose on the ground.

So maybe when you go to interact with something, it says, "Is this in a forbidden biome for you? If so, is this a naturally-occurring thing? The problem with that is that a tapped rubber tree isn't naturally occurring, nor is an oil well.

I guess we'll cross the "griefer dropping in forbidden area" bridge when the time comes.

I also thought about just being unable to travel there, at all. That would make roads a pain.

I also thought about dropping what you're holding outside the biome as you enter it. That certainly prevents griefer dropping exploits, but also makes travel with a cart through the area a pain.

jasonrohrer · 2019-11-14 01:11:27

Why would those jungle-folks want to trade with you and not just kill you out of fear?

Because they need stuff form you too. They're blocked from making rubber without your sulfur. And later on, they're blocked from running pumps without someone else's oil. Throw in some colored clothes and a horse, and they'll be eager to give you some buckets of latex. Or trade the colored clothes for seal coats and then trade those with the jungle folks.

So a stranger coming to town is a welcome sight. Yes, we found each other.

These are hypothetical scenarios, yes, but at least we could imagine such a thing happening. At least that route of a "multi-stop trade" is a viable route forward now.

Before, you would walk in with seal coats and find everyone in that village already wearing them, and you wouldn't really want anything from them anyway. Latex? You already have plenty of that. So trading was just pretend.

Toxolotl · 2019-11-14 01:21:22

I think being able to pick up and drop things in any biome is an easy preventative for potential griefing. Griefers already hide things in jungles and i imagine this will become a huge issue. Another big issue could be griefers filling all the buckets with latex with no ability to process it. Honestly this update is only going to make griefing easier and the game more painful for anyone who actually wants to play normally.

fug · 2019-11-14 01:22:46

jasonrohrer wrote:

Why would those jungle-folks want to trade with you and not just kill you out of fear?
Because they need stuff form you too. They're blocked from making rubber without your sulfur. And later on, they're blocked from running pumps without someone else's oil. Throw in some colored clothes and a horse, and they'll be eager to give you some buckets of latex. Or trade the colored clothes for seal coats and then trade those with the jungle folks.
So a stranger coming to town is a welcome sight. Yes, we found each other.
These are hypothetical scenarios, yes, but at least we could imagine such a thing happening. At least that route of a "multi-stop trade" is a viable route forward now.
Before, you would walk in with seal coats and find everyone in that village already wearing them, and you wouldn't really want anything from them anyway. Latex? You already have plenty of that. So trading was just pretend.

When has it ever been appropriate to kill a stranger on sight? The only time one person has been dangerous is when the sword was absolutely broken and you made it that way on purpose. Otherwise there has never been a point in game where you see a single different colored person and think "Well she's going to kill us all." One person is not a threat to a city unless everyone is incompetent especially with all the pvp changes. A pest? Maybe if they decide to be annoying but a threat? Not at all.

It's better for us all to get along and just be a big melding pot of all the races rather than for us to self-segregate ourselves in single race cities with no interaction with others. All you're doing is forcing people to basically need outsiders living with each other (which isn't all bad) but you're not solving the issue of us needing to trade.

This is going to end up like tool slots. A good idea on paper but integrated into the game poorly. People told you this was a bad idea in the past for the same reason they're telling you it one now; because this is a bad idea. I'm grateful that you're explaining why you're trying it but you're forcing a circle peg through a square hole.

Wuatduhf · 2019-11-14 01:23:38

1) Jason, I appreciate the desire to implement game features that aim to encourage resource trading and biome diversity.

2) I do not believe that this "punishment" for villages being as insanely successful as they are now should come out without some new content/features that play off of this. There needs to be more resources to tap, things to do in such specialized biomes. Sure that could come later on down the pipeline, but...constantly putting in restrictive mechanics without something new to gain from it being added is rough.

3) Can the "Pale ones" have a bonus Tool count for not being biome-specialized, but resource-specialized? And then just take that back out once they have a biome of their own.

Saolin · 2019-11-14 01:25:00

I think fug is right that we will just end up with bunch of mixed race towns. It will be harder to get a town started, but the ones that do will be a large mix of families. There wouldn't really need to be trade other than for RP, but there would be some job specialization. The time spent traveling to a different town to make a trade and come back would be less efficient than just having it all centralized in one town.

Keyin · 2019-11-14 01:37:41

I still think what will happen in reality is mostly just veteran player will trade co-ordinating through discord OR one player will make many of one trade good to lay out for their next life. ex: make a bunch of sulfur bowls, then lay them outside of desert. Next life play as black family and go to hiding spot to get sulfur for rubber. Make a bunch of rubber and lay it outside of jungle for next life, etc.

after a few days into arc simply stay in ginger families that have finished diesel engine.

Legs · 2019-11-14 01:55:10

Yeah true, if you cheat with mods it would be really easy to /die a few times and have the coordinates of each type of settlement. Would be really easy to cooperate with a couple people through discord to congregate at one too. The problem of finding and trading with other families becomes trivial when you introduce cheats and third party communication. A lot of these sickos actually like playing eve in the wilderness so I'm sure they'd be happy to start their very own mixed town somewhere too.

DiscardedSlinky · 2019-11-14 02:01:33

We're both talking about the same player base right? The ones that would ALWAYS reset the arcs just because they could, and not out of necessity? The ones that griefed so hard it was impossible to start a fire?

Most of the player base I would say are good people, but you're planning on adding features that can and will be abused. The bridges will be crossed the moment they're laid. Think on it more.

You already have restrictions on picking up items based on ages, just set certain items to be set based on skintone. Yeah it's not a bandaid fix it'd take some effort, but would you rather have us all immediately hate the update because of it being abused? Griefers are ganna grief.

The_Anabaptist · 2019-11-14 02:47:54

So if I build my town in one of these 3 zones, I guarantee that everyone born into my town will die but the zone specialist and non-specialize races survive? And I limit myself to out of town maladjusted players of the same races?

This whole not picking up or dropping things just sounds wacky. Don't like it at first blush.

The_Anabaptist

Gogo · 2019-11-14 03:19:40

I welcome every change cause game is too stagnant. It will force us to find other towns.

I think all towns in time will evolve into multi-racials rather than we trade with each other.

What about multi-racial family? Like when we have an outsider with different skin tone (male) next babies will be born mixed, if this male say some formula (like you are/you own for names and gates), so he can demand something in exchange for his uhh service?

Twisted wrote:

Funnily enough, because of the griefing potential, I have a feeling trading will be even worse than before (if that's even possible). If you trade for X special biome resource it will be very easy for a griefer to snatch it and run into an inaccessible biome. There's no easy way to recover from that, so every village will be required to have one of every 3 biome fams.

That's why we finally need to start use properties as storages.

Last edited by Gogo (2019-11-14 03:21:23)

Jk Howling · 2019-11-14 03:26:38

Lol.

DestinyCall · 2019-11-14 03:59:39

Gogo wrote:

That's why we finally need to start use properties as storages.

Nah. I'll just store all my important stuff in the desert. Nobody can take it except my bros and they're cool.

coriander · 2019-11-14 04:36:38

Sounds like hell for vanilla users.

DestinyCall · 2019-11-14 04:44:18

coriander wrote:

Sounds like hell for vanilla users.

https://youtu.be/MxYsi5Y-xOQ

jasonrohrer · 2019-11-14 05:31:44

Hand-picking objects that are off-limits for certain skin tones could work. Like rubber trees, alum, tarry spots, oil wells, etc. The problem with that is that it's somewhat error-prone (I'll certainly miss something), and the messaging just isn't that clear.

When you step into the jungle and simply can't do anything there, it's very clear what's going on. Your character makes an exhausted noise and face (for heat exhaustion), and then makes an AHH of relief when they step back out. "I get it, I'm not comfortable here."

Actually, the original plan was dropsy. When you step into the biome, you get sick and drop what you are holding outside the biome, similar to yellow fever without the fever or appetite reduction. That would be crystal clear messaging. My character just can't stand it in here...

Problem with that is that it makes travel with carts or baskets a pain. Though these biomes are relatively rare, so maybe it's okay?

The other version is that you're blocked from even stepping foot in there. The jungle is like a wall to you. This also has some messaging issues, though the character would pathfind around it.... but it might just feel like a bug (and also, travel is a huge pain).

I'm wondering about the griefing issue and how big it is... It's like a permanent fence that doesn't need maintenance and can't be taken down by elders.

However, it can also be bypassed by 1/4 of the server population, so it's not very secure. If a bunch of engines end up in the desert, just find one desert dweller to help you get them, right?

How is hiding valuable stuff in a specialty biome any more powerful than walking north and hiding it in the middle of nowhere? If you want to get rid of something, as a griefer, it's not hard....

The solution is not the make hiding impossible, but to give players the tools to prevent theft in the first place. A griefer can't hide your engine if they can't get your engine....

Grim_Arbiter · 2019-11-14 05:41:07

jasonrohrer wrote:

However, it can also be bypassed by 1/4 of the server population, so it's not very secure. If a bunch of engines end up in the desert, just find one desert dweller to help you get them, right?
How is hiding valuable stuff in a specialty biome any more powerful than walking north and hiding it in the middle of nowhere? If you want to get rid of something, as a griefer, it's not hard....

The solution is not the make hiding impossible, but to give players the tools to prevent theft in the first place. A griefer can't hide your engine if they can't get your engine....

I told slinky thanks for pointing that out to me. If you want loot go to your biome. You might find grief attempts like you said, but more likely other loot from those that perished that only you and your family can grab.

sigmen4020 · 2019-11-14 08:30:40

Maybe it would be a good idea for whites to get bonus tool slots to make up for lacking specialization. Language learning benefits will only really be useful early game.

miskas · 2019-11-14 09:43:22

jasonrohrer wrote:

Also, Twisted, the Eve baby flood has been mostly fixed, right? Look at some recent Eves in the family tree:
2 BB:
http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=5488728
11 BB, only 2 died in infancy:
http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=5488753
8 BB, 1 died in infancy:
http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=5489443

This is not fixed, any player with 40 score would be at ruins after this.

The only reason that the first Eve only had 2 bbs is that he was fertile for only 6 minutes, died at 20.
I would always /die if I get born as Eve if I care for my gene score. I would probably quit the game too to avoid be born as eve again.

Last edited by miskas (2019-11-14 09:44:31)

MrShuriken · 2019-11-14 10:32:39

Legs wrote:

Seems like iron ore would still spawn in badlands, so you could gather enough to support a town until trade is established. You'd need to find a desert town to get rubber anyway.

And a mid skin town to get the actual rubber part
Dessert for sulphur
Seems like a risky idea, needing all 3 familys to even survive long term...

Kaveh · 2019-11-14 12:19:57

I think the only towns that'll survive will be the ones where different families live together and therefore avoid trading / circumvent the new constriction altogether.
This system doesn't encourage trading, it encourages living together. I'm not saying that's BAD per se, it's just a different thing.

Something I also wonder about is how well those multiculti towns would work. Someone is working on a newcomen well and needs rubber, so asks at least one other person to get some stuff for them. The other person: nah I'm making carrots rn.
Especially at the start people won't even realise that they may be the only one capable of doing said task, but even if they do, they may not feel like it, not have any tool slots left for a knife or just not know how to do it in the first place (smallest problem cuz you can explain). Would it turn into a case of "if you do x for me, i'll do y for you"? How do you even balance the effort? It can't be like "yeah I'll give you my cute coloured hat if you stop doing what you're doing for 5+ minutes and travel out of town to slice up a tree for latex and get some palm kernels too". A lot of people won't realise rubber is actually necessary and just keep doing what they're doing. There's nothing you can give someone to make them basically quit their own project for an extended amount of time (in a game where time is very limited), unless they already realise it's important.
All I can see happening is running around town while spamming the message 'need jungle peep for rubber' and hope one of them steps up to do it.

Time is the most valuable resource in this game. That's why traveling to find other people, looking for them in town or even being forced to talk about things gets people annoyed. It wastes too much time that could be spent more efficiently on other things.

DiscardedSlinky · 2019-11-14 13:16:08

Also it's going to be really annoying when babies, or even adults wander into the jungle or desert and die and you can't get their clothes.

I think hand picked objects you can't interact with is a way better idea than being completely brick walled.

Maybe make our characters say something when we enter a biome we're not specialized in. Like when we [GASP] when we're being targeted. That's something that can't really be ignored.

Ilka · 2019-11-14 16:35:07

Another stupid idea.

Jason !!!!! Finally, understand that you won't force players to do anything they don't want.

You really are an amazing person.

Once again I repeat - do you want to achieve something?

Encourage players to do this.

This of course makes no sense but I will write again.

Each family should be able to produce a unique, exclusive item (or several items).

Yes, family, not race!

Your idea is racist.

These items can not be anything very valuable and laborious.

For example, one family can produce colorful grass skirts, the other can have hats with rabbit ears, such fun things.

You can of course consider that these were also more useful things but it can not be very valuable because no one will sell it.

In the center of the map stands the belfry (remaining from ancient civilizations).

The belfry rings as the wind blows and anyone willing to trade can come to this place.

In addition, it will be a landmark, a crossroads and a great market where people will trade for pleasure.

jasonrohrer · 2019-11-14 17:07:42

Ilka, I'm not so interested in people trading for pleasure. Real play, not role play.

People only do something "for pleasure" in a game once. After they've done it, they're done with. Then they get back to playing the game, whatever that is. When was the last time you saw a dachshund or chihuahua dog in the game? They are very cute! Certainly they bring players "pleasure." But you never see them in the game, because there is no "point" to them. Which means, essentially, "they are not necessary or helpful for survival," survival being the core challenge of the game.

These abilities could be randomly assigned to each family (when Eve spawns). The problem with that is messaging. You need to find a family that can help you. How can you tell what their ability is by looking at them? "Can you get latex from the jungle?" No, sorry. "What about you, can you get latex from the jungle?" No, sorry. Compounding this is the language barrier. It's hard enough to find them, hard enough to ask.

This problem also exists with tool slots, but there at least you're dealing with your family, where you all speak the same language and are in the same area. You don't travel to a far away place to ask a question across a language barrier. So asking a family member, "can you chop kindling?" is not very expensive. Therefore, the messaging issue isn't as prominent with tool slots. It's still a bit of a pain, though. I have thought about better messaging there too (so when you're out of tool slot and holding an unlearned tool, it highlights people who can help you).

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Re: Coming Soon: Family Specialization

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