Rethinking travel through bad biomes

jasonrohrer · 2019-11-19 19:33:58

The point of bad biomes is NOT to make travel difficult or annoying.

However, letting you carry stuff into a bad biome has a bunch of problems:

1. If you can carry it, can you set it down? If so, can you pick it up again?

2. If you can pick stuff up that you set down, why can't you pick up other stuff? You can pick up this cart, but NOT this alum rock? You can pick up this basket, but not this latex bucket?

3. It's really important that you can't pick stuff up in a bad biome, so that if you stumble into an abandoned rubber farm (or whatever), you can't just help yourself to the stuff that's sitting there. You need to find a rubber family to help you. That's the whole point.

4. If you can't set stuff down, to avoid this confusion, what happens when you step on a snake or get stabbed or whatever? Maybe this is a non-issue, because you can't re-pick the stuff back up when this happens anyway.

5. If you can't set stuff down, how is this messaged? Game feels broken. Your character is unhappy and just sneezed, but now stuff is locked in their hand? You need to eat, but you can't. It will be confusing.

Currently, the only way to carry stuff through a bad biome is in a backpack or on a road. It's pretty nice that roads need to be constructed by specialist families, but that doesn't help you much if you're the first explorer in the area. After trade routes are established, this will be less of a problem, but bootstrapping is a pain.

But if you have a backpack and empty hands, you can walk through a bad biome straight without issue.

One idea is that you can RIDE through a bad biome on a horse or vehicle. The riding protects you, so it makes sense. And you can't "drop" your horse or car, because that would make you sick, so that makes sense too.

However, this doesn't help the early game at all, because you need to find a horse family to get that first ride. Though desert families could explore far and wide.

I know that people have suggested action blocking in bad biomes as an alternative. But I feel like this is a huge messaging problem. I walk into a bad biome, and for some reason, I can pick up this rock but not that rock.

Right now, the messaging is crystal clear, and I really want to keep it that way. It's also cute/funny when your character gets dehydrated and gasps, or sweats and puffs.

Yes, you could still keep that without forcing them to drop stuff. But the messaging around being sick and not being able to pick up an alum rock isn't clear enough.

miskas · 2019-11-19 20:01:35

jasonrohrer wrote:

One idea is that you can RIDE through a bad biome on a horse or vehicle. The riding protects you, so it makes sense. And you can't "drop" your horse or car, because that would make you sick, so that makes sense too.
However, this doesn't help the early game at all, because you need to find a horse family to get that first ride. Though desert families could explore far and wide.

DO this, horse get you anywhere.

Early Eve game is hard and we built staff to overcome it like wells, farms, pens. Horses will be one of the items to overcome the hardness of traveling.
(they will also allow the vanilla users to see what's in the special biomes, maybe some people have invested in those places or valuable needed resources are there. )

Last edited by miskas (2019-11-19 20:06:29)

Dodge · 2019-11-19 20:15:15

Prairie horses?

or donkeys? slower than horse but lets you ride trough bad biomes

arkajalka · 2019-11-19 21:09:51

Dodge wrote:

Prairie horses?
or donkeys? slower than horse but lets you ride trough bad biomes

+1

Slower and even more tedious than horses XD

Also no cart on donkeys, just two baskets.

donkeyyyyy

Last edited by arkajalka (2019-11-19 21:12:30)

Spoonwood · 2019-11-19 21:20:10

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is.

But, if you're looking for ideas about how to make such limitations on players better, no, I have no interest in giving you ideas. And others should not be helping you Jason here, not if they don't like your latest racist change.

I have an interest in saying that such limitations are not fun and remove player's capabilities. As someone else has said I think, such changes are not empowering to players and players want a feeling of empowerment. Such limitations are not more content, in partciular they are less available content for a player in his or her life, since now, all of a sudden because a player's race they can't do something, which got put into the game on the basis of a notion made up in a vacuum and without any known requests from the paying customer base of the game.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-11-19 21:21:43)

Kaveh · 2019-11-19 21:39:00

I like the donkey idea! Any family can get them, they can help you carry a lot of stuff and travel thru difficult areas, but they're not necessarily fast. It's perfect for nomads and traders.

Perhaps you'd have quite some storage, but have to guide the donkey by hand and -here it comes- if needed you can have it carry a baby (up until u cant pick them up anymore)????? This helps you travel even if you have a bab. You do need to take them down to feed them, but the donkey keeps them nice and warm.

Last edited by Kaveh (2019-11-19 21:45:52)

Coconut Fruit · 2019-11-19 22:17:10

There is one solution to solve these problems... Remove this shitty specialization update :P

jasonrohrer wrote:

Why:
To make life in each parallel family feel unique
To encourage players to explore outside of their village bubbles and find other families
To encourage inter-family interaction, cooperation, and trade
To encourage players to bridge language barriers between families
To make climbing the upper reaches of the tech tree less linear, monotone, and certain
To give you more complex, interpersonal challenges
To partially model a beautiful facet of the real world, where different people from different areas specialize in different things

I think specializations update is the worst way to achieve these things. Why would you force us to do these things, why making them necessary and not optional... This game is getting less enjoyable, I hope you are aware of this.

Coconut Fruit · 2019-11-19 22:20:01

I mean, specializations could be fun, but not in a way where someone can't enter a biome, but where different races would be able to craft different things, it could open many possibilities.

Kinrany · 2019-11-19 22:40:41

jasonrohrer wrote:

It's really important that you can't pick stuff up in a bad biome, so that if you stumble into an abandoned rubber farm (or whatever), you can't just help yourself to the stuff that's sitting there. You need to find a rubber family to help you. That's the whole point.

Is this really that important?

1. The stuff can easily be in the neutral biome since settling there is a better idea.
2. Just having the stuff shouldn't be as good as having a cooperating family anyway.
3. Finding abandoned loot is a nice consolation prize for people who spend their lives looking for other families.

jasonrohrer wrote:

I know that people have suggested action blocking in bad biomes as an alternative. But I feel like this is a huge messaging problem. I walk into a bad biome, and for some reason, I can pick up this rock but not that rock.

You could change the mechanics so that all the important resources should be extracted from unmovable items. Like hitting a big chunk of iron with a rock to get small chunks of iron.

This way you can let anyone carry anything anywhere, and just make them sneeze and drop stuff when they try to interact with something while in a bad biome.

Keyin · 2019-11-19 22:52:10

Custom recipes seems like a good way to go. Like Sharp stone + sapling is a recipe, so the very act of harvesting each resource could be its own recipe.

i.e Only a specialist has access to their biome harvesting recipes, but once it is harvested anyone can use it

jasonrohrer · 2019-11-19 23:00:35

Basket donkey is a good idea! Probably not happening this week, though.

I think the horse is a good solution.

So as a new village, your first step is to find a desert civ to get a horse (or be found by them), to aid in your further explorations.

Along with other changes (like waystones), this will help a lot.

The bell tower is server-wide.... I'm wondering if there can be a family specific signal (sound) that each family can blow to call people to them. So when you hear it, you know what kind of specialist is making the sound, and whether you want to go there.

Though I don't want to undercut exploration too much.

There's a lot of drama there, when resources start to run out in your village, and someone has to go out exploring, and you wait for them to come back with news.

Constraints are exactly what makes something interesting. Remove all constraints, and the thing becomes boring and bland, because there's no tension.

If you need proof of it, let me enable VOG mode for you on a private server, where you can build anything you want with absolutely no constraints. Or download the editor, which allows you to make custom maps with the mouse---anything you can imagine---and then load the custom map into a server and walk around in it.

You will be "empowered" to the maximum extent possible, but you will lose interest in this mode of play in less than a day.

jasonrohrer · 2019-11-19 23:03:47

Keyin, there's also a problem of authorship there...

There are currently 3300 recipes. If I try to hand-tag them for specialist families, I'm definitely going to miss something. I thought about ways to automate this (like if the recipe is X crafting steps from a natural object in a specialist biome), but there are loads of special cases and such.

For tools, manual tagging was easier, because there are way fewer tools. But even there, I missed some things.

And then messaging. Do you see crafting hints when you click on a rubber tree? You know that a knife can be used there, but it just doesn't work?

For tools, you hold the tool backwards, and there's clear messaging about using up tool slots. But here, you already learned the knife, and it's not working on this rubber tree...

Gomez · 2019-11-19 23:22:04

Honestly the fact that I have to make navigational decisions now based on whether or not I'm carrying something makes exploration more dynamic, before I used to just charge across the map on a horse only caring about the desert biome and snakes.

Now I actually run into blocks that I need to plan around and makes the world seem more immersive tbh.

Roads also seem very practical now since a specialist can literally pave the way for the next generation to travel thru the bad biome.

Just my two cents tho.

Keyin · 2019-11-19 23:35:53

jasonrohrer wrote:

For tools, you hold the tool backwards, and there's clear messaging about using up tool slots. But here, you already learned the knife, and it's not working on this rubber tree...

I was under the impression that the heat stroke/dehydration/palor would be enough of an indication.

e.g "I cannot slice this rubber tree because it's way too hot here so I cannot afford to exert myself in any way"

But I could be completely wrong. Minor slowness effect could help.

Perhaps any recipe that isn't just picking something up or eating could be blocked?
Items that simply need to be picked up off the ground now (that you only want specialists to be able to get) could be changed to require sharp stone or some other tool
e.g alum cluster + sharp stone = alum

i.e ban all recipes that aren't eating in a biome for non-specialists and add recipes to harvest materials laying on the ground

EDIT: problem there I guess would be people could pick up things like bowl of sulfur or bucket of latex and run off with them... hmm... i don't know I tried haha.

In that case the people should try to protect their trade goods, especially now that property fences are easier to make. If they leave out their finished product, it is on them if it is poached by a foreigner.

e.g a Chinese silk farmer shouldn't leave finished silk laying around

Last edited by Keyin (2019-11-19 23:56:16)

Spoonwood · 2019-11-19 23:54:56

jasonrohrer wrote:

Constraints are exactly what makes something interesting.

I mean a player committed suicide in game after their mother tried to them not to because of gene score, because of the new constraints. That isn't someone finding such a change interesting. A

jasonrohrer wrote:

Remove all constraints, and the thing becomes boring and bland, because there's no tension.

Another recent constraint was The Rift. People, with some exceptions, are less bored. Constraints can and do make things more samey, because if you only have a hammer (a constraint), everything starts to look like a nail... and everything looking like a nail is boring.

jasonrohrer wrote:

If you need proof of it, let me enable VOG mode for you on a private server, where you can build anything you want with absolutely no constraints. Or download the editor, which allows you to make custom maps with the mouse---anything you can imagine---and then load the custom map into a server and walk around in it.

Doesn't sound boring at all. I could see a lot more of what other players were doing. Though maybe you're bored with VOG mode Jason, I won't speak for you.

But still... you have as few constraints as anyone out there with this game. Are you bored with it?

jasonrohrer wrote:

You will be "empowered" to the maximum extent possible, but you will lose interest in this mode of play in less than a day.

Your own game is boring for you to play? And it was boring in less than a day?

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-11-19 23:55:34)

Wuatduhf · 2019-11-20 00:14:49

Gomez wrote:

Honestly the fact that I have to make navigational decisions now based on whether or not I'm carrying something makes exploration more dynamic, before I used to just charge across the map on a horse only caring about the desert biome and snakes.
Now I actually run into blocks that I need to plan around and makes the world seem more immersive tbh.
Roads also seem very practical now since a specialist can literally pave the way for the next generation to travel thru the bad biome.

Just my two cents tho.

I mean, this was the kind of gameplay feature requesting that myself and others were pointing at implementing, such as "Ocean" and true "Mountain" biomes that would actually be impassable until late-game tech.

The specialist biomes are basically just toned-down Ocean/Mountain biomes.

Spoonwood · 2019-11-20 00:32:33

Wuatduhf wrote:

I mean, this was the kind of gameplay feature requesting that myself and others were pointing at implementing, such as "Ocean" and true "Mountain" biomes that would actually be impassable until late-game tech.
The specialist biomes are basically just toned-down Ocean/Mountain biomes.

I think that would have been substantially different. It would be new content in that more existed in the game for people to do potentially. It wouldn't just be restrictions on old content, which all this change involved. Just making it so that players could do less in a given life based on their race. If you have a hammer and an axe, then you'll hammer the nail and chop the tree. But, if you have the constraint of only having the hammer, the tree will look like a nail also.

jasonrohrer · 2019-11-20 00:47:26

I don't go around in VOG mode and build things, because that is boring.

When I first implemented VOG mode, I had fun with it for a few hours, flying around and watching people, and messing with them (making bushes or turkey's talk, etc).

But that got old very quickly, because there was no challenge, and there were no constraints.

Walking around as Jason is a bit more interesting, because I at least have to find food, and players can kill me to take my hat. I also have to navigate between towns for real, instead of just auto-jumping with VOG mode.

But still, I mostly do that to check on people and entertain players (they like running into Jason as a surprise). It's not that engaging.

If I really want an engaging experience, I get born as a baby in a random situation and face whatever challenge that family is facing, as a real player with full constraints.

But no, making unlimited constructions with the editor is not fun or interesting at all. I can plop down 500 running cars with a few mouse clicks....

Spoonwood · 2019-11-20 01:11:20

jasonrohrer wrote:

But no, making unlimited constructions with the editor is not fun or interesting at all. I can plop down 500 running cars with a few mouse clicks....

But could you do things with self-imposed constraints instead in VOG and make something that players make in the same way that they do without VOG mode?

DestinyCall · 2019-11-20 01:13:44

jasonrohrer wrote:

Or download the editor, which allows you to make custom maps with the mouse---anything you can imagine---and then load the custom map into a server and walk around in it.
You will be "empowered" to the maximum extent possible, but you will lose interest in this mode of play in less than a day.

There is an editor available for OHOL? I did not know this.

Where can I download it?

Coconut Fruit · 2019-11-20 01:27:13

One thing I like is that the game is balanced around veterans/mod users. With general chat with our family it could become exciting. Telling tasks and telling how to live on chat would bring whole new level of family cooperation.

I wonder if it is possible to programm a general chat in a mod. Text is invisible if a person is too far away, but maybe it can be read directly from the server? Can it?
I mean general chat only with our family, not with everyone on the server.

I don't like exploring because it's boring to me being alone in the wild, but if I could chat with my family during it I wouldn't mind exploring at all.

Last edited by Coconut Fruit (2019-11-20 01:29:13)

JasonY · 2019-11-20 01:51:59

What about making cars and planes actually useful. Horses can travel through deserts but they don't like snow or jungle.

jasonrohrer · 2019-11-20 02:03:00

Destiny, unfortunately, I haven't distributed binaries for it yet. I don't want to imply that it's officially part of the product just yet, because it's not really polished for end users.

But it can be built from source pretty easily, especially on Linux. Sticky thread here:

http://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=112

wondible · 2019-11-20 02:29:21

DestinyCall wrote:

There is an editor available for OHOL? I did not know this.
Where can I download it?

Awbz has a build it at least the windows full packages.

https://github.com/Awbz/OneLife/releases

pein · 2019-11-20 04:23:34

you gotta edit the settings file for the pictures cause it's hard coded
didn't used it much cause couldn't figure that out at first

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-11-19 19:33:58

Rethinking travel through bad biomes

#2 2019-11-19 20:01:35

Re: Rethinking travel through bad biomes

#3 2019-11-19 20:15:15

Re: Rethinking travel through bad biomes

#4 2019-11-19 21:09:51

Re: Rethinking travel through bad biomes

#5 2019-11-19 21:20:10

Re: Rethinking travel through bad biomes

#6 2019-11-19 21:39:00

Re: Rethinking travel through bad biomes

#7 2019-11-19 22:17:10

Re: Rethinking travel through bad biomes

#8 2019-11-19 22:20:01

Re: Rethinking travel through bad biomes

#9 2019-11-19 22:40:41

Re: Rethinking travel through bad biomes

#10 2019-11-19 22:52:10

Re: Rethinking travel through bad biomes

#11 2019-11-19 23:00:35

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#12 2019-11-19 23:03:47

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#13 2019-11-19 23:22:04

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#14 2019-11-19 23:35:53

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#15 2019-11-19 23:54:56

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#16 2019-11-20 00:14:49

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#17 2019-11-20 00:32:33

Re: Rethinking travel through bad biomes

#18 2019-11-20 00:47:26

Re: Rethinking travel through bad biomes

#19 2019-11-20 01:11:20

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#20 2019-11-20 01:13:44

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#21 2019-11-20 01:27:13

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#22 2019-11-20 01:51:59

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#23 2019-11-20 02:03:00

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