Idea: one kill per life?

jasonrohrer · 2019-12-02 07:21:53

Got another email about griefing today.

The guy was trying to save his town from a lone griefer, but he couldn't convince the noob players in town to team up with him and help.

1-v-1, stopping a griefer is still pretty hard. You run slower when you chase them alone.

Sure, they run slower too when chasing you, making you as an expert player relatively safe. But they can still pick off noob players who don't know to run when they hear murder mouth coming.

So in the email, this lone griefer hung out outside of town and picked off unsuspecting noobs relentlessly, along with stealing stuff, etc.

As I've said, killing is a necessary ingredient in this game... otherwise, how would you dispatch such a griefer, even with majority consent?

But one person unilaterally picking off unsuspecting people is not the reason killing is in the game. It's an abuse of a necessary power.

Assuming that such griefers are in the extreme minority, it would seem like a hard limit on killing, per player, might help. Maybe even one kill per life. Maybe after doing it, your character just can't bear to do it again, which makes some sense thematically.

And if a town faces a few griefers, they need a few good men to dispatch them, a different posse leader for each case. The guy who handled the last one is on break.

The other idea is to make unilateral killing completely impossible. Maybe you need a posse of 2+ to do it.

This would undercut gate-guarding, though.

In fact, even a killing limit would undercut a gate-guarding career somewhat.

In general, I want to leave some kind of unilateral killing in the game to permit lone players to stake claims and make threats. You know, "Get away from here, I've got a bead on you with my bow, don't come near."

If there was a limit of one kill per life, the lone player would only be able to fend off a single invader...

Wuatduhf · 2019-12-02 07:31:00

jasonrohrer wrote:

Got another email about griefing today.
The guy was trying to save his town from a lone griefer, but he couldn't convince the noob players in town to team up with him and help.
1-v-1, stopping a griefer is still pretty hard. You run slower when you chase them alone.
Sure, they run slower too when chasing you, making you as an expert player relatively safe. But they can still pick off noob players who don't know to run when they hear murder mouth coming.
So in the email, this lone griefer hung out outside of town and picked off unsuspecting noobs relentlessly, along with stealing stuff, etc.

As I've said, killing is a necessary ingredient in this game... otherwise, how would you dispatch such a griefer, even with majority consent?
But one person unilaterally picking off unsuspecting people is not the reason killing is in the game. It's an abuse of a necessary power.
Assuming that such griefers are in the extreme minority, it would seem like a hard limit on killing, per player, might help. Maybe even one kill per life. Maybe after doing it, your character just can't bear to do it again, which makes some sense thematically.
And if a town faces a few griefers, they need a few good men to dispatch them, a different posse leader for each case. The guy who handled the last one is on break.

The other idea is to make unilateral killing completely impossible. Maybe you need a posse of 2+ to do it.
This would undercut gate-guarding, though.
In fact, even a killing limit would undercut a gate-guarding career somewhat.
In general, I want to leave some kind of unilateral killing in the game to permit lone players to stake claims and make threats. You know, "Get away from here, I've got a bead on you with my bow, don't come near."
If there was a limit of one kill per life, the lone player would only be able to fend off a single invader...

I hate griefing as much as the next person, but you've said so yourself that murderers/griefers have a role to play in the game like everyone else.

If combat restrictions were to start being placed, such as the 1-Kill or the 2-Posse, I think that would give further incentive to players or "gate guards" to be equipped with those Batons I mentioned a little while ago. Non-lethal methods having less of a restriction on how much they can be used.

It would be another tool the griefer/murderer could use, sure, in whatever odd circumstance they're able to get hold of one while stuck in the murder-state of killing another player. But from most scenarios, if 2 players are prepared to murder an entire village down, then the Baton wouldn't alter that scenario one bit.

Keyin · 2019-12-02 07:34:22

Please don't do either of these. Serial killing is already tough from :

Delay between murder mouth and actual stabbing + 1/2 speed during pursuit + can't drop weapon after killing + slowness after killing + exclamation points during pursuit.

It would feel like an arbitrary restriction/unintuitive. "I'm trying to stab this griefer, but I can't?? what's going on" "Oh, you can only kill one person per life" "???" "Your character is too shaken up from the last murder" "But they killed my son??? They must die!"

Before the helpless baby update, I couldn't even sacrifice my children to nosaj either because the newborn was too fast...

Last edited by Keyin (2019-12-02 07:38:28)

Lexyvil · 2019-12-02 07:44:22

To be honest, I love seeing a bit of murdering action in the game. The fact we never know what can happen in the next life, either a peaceful one or one with a potential murderer or two, makes it more exciting and can add good drama. A murder (or more) occurs about one third of my lives, which I find is a reasonable amount, and the murderer/s do tend to get caught, cursed, and killed, if the town is crowded enough.

From that, I personally hope there's no limit in how many people someone can kill--it adds to the challenge of being wary while playing.

Spoonwood · 2019-12-02 07:57:32

Neither of these ideas would work for dispatching with griefers for a server when it's low pop. Personally speaking, I remember a griefer coming to my town via the road shortly after The Come Together change. I killed her once (she didn't seem to know about the language changes babbling something to me incoherently for a bit). Then she respawned near me since that's how spawning mechanics worked then and walked back into my town, and I killed her in the same life. With either of the restrictions mentioned in the original post, she might have just have killed me when she came back, and that would have been a pity, because losing your Eve spawn can mean losing your town in the low pop context, and even if one makes it back to "her" town via a road or using coordinates, that can still take some time. So, things could be even worse with one kill per life.

You could fend off an invader, and that invader could become more likely to kill you.

Also, were the game to decline a lot, both one murder per life and needing a posse necessarily to kill could run into the same problem for bigserver2, perhaps during the hours of the morning EST where player count tends to be lowest. Families do sometimes have low population numbers, or low numbers of adults in them.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-12-02 07:59:46)

Dodge · 2019-12-02 08:13:39

Maybe as soon as someone joins your posse one time you become an "approved guard" for the rest of this life, giving you the ability to kill in 1vs1 but if nobody joined your posse ever then you cant 1vs1.

So lone griefers could never go on a killing spree unless they can convince someone to join their posse at least once.

edit: and for the case of the single player defending his property maybe 1 vs 1 could be possible but would inflict a non lethal wound that prevents the attacker from grabing stuff for x time and a second blow would be fatal.

or 1 vs 1 is possible but you can only gate keep (cant move) and it only kills if the person targetted moves towards you, so a victim running from you would not get killed by a bow for example but if you move one tile in the direction of the person targetting then you get shot

Last edited by Dodge (2019-12-02 08:21:00)

Keyin · 2019-12-02 08:27:08

Honestly this kind of thing is contributing more and more to mob rule.

If you try to go against the norms you open yourself up to getting cursed. Even just messing around spam picking up/placing an item has gotten me death threats and curses. People want to shake up what they do in game, but if they rock the boat the mob will kill and curse them. So most people just do what they do every life. They don't rock the boat. Do what is expected or you'll get cursed. Don't do anything strange. This conrtibutes to every life feeling the same.

Groups are already powerful enough in my opinion. It seems like individuals keep getting nerfed. For example, combat cool-downs and slow-downs are nerfs to individuals. Posse is a nerf to individuals. War/peace update is a nerf to individuals. Elder removal is a nerf to individuals. Family specialty is a nerf to individuals. Skill slots are a nerf to individuals. I think individuals are weak enough at this point.

Think of the cases where half the town is in a discord group(quads). An individual has no hope of defeating them. The mob is in total control.

fug · 2019-12-02 10:34:24

Dodge wrote:

Maybe as soon as someone joins your posse one time you become an "approved guard" for the rest of this life, giving you the ability to kill in 1vs1 but if nobody joined your posse ever then you cant 1vs1.
So lone griefers could never go on a killing spree unless they can convince someone to join their posse at least once.
edit: and for the case of the single player defending his property maybe 1 vs 1 could be possible but would inflict a non lethal wound that prevents the attacker from grabing stuff for x time and a second blow would be fatal.
or 1 vs 1 is possible but you can only gate keep (cant move) and it only kills if the person targetted moves towards you, so a victim running from you would not get killed by a bow for example but if you move one tile in the direction of the person targetting then you get shot

How does this solve the issue? I've had my (very dumb) new son help a griefer because she convinced him to say "I join you" as she ran me out of town with a bow. If the goal is to allow someone to be better by being an approved guard then it should be an elder that approves you not some random kid that can finally say "I join you."

Back to the issue at hand even with six seconds as long as you're within 1-2 tiles you can out maneuver someone you chase with a bow to kill them even at 75% speed. As long as you're smart you'll kill them and due to new players not having any sort of mods they'll fail to see people behind trees and etc.

The biggest issues are you made combat a mess + there's no reason to play hero as it normally bites you in the ass to do so. Specifically speaking last time I stopped the troll stealing things from town/killing the entire town (besides the smith) turned on me because they thought the "curse you" phrase cursed the individual player reading it. Unless you specifically care about the place being griefed you might as well let someone kick over all the new players castle because otherwise you run into "killing is bad, so you must be killed" new players, or the type who see blood and instantly curse without asking what is going on.

You best bet is to just curse a troll and kill yourself (which sounds dumb) so your next life they aren't born around you. Normally they'll die before you so if you curse and live you risk dealing with the same crap next life around.

Keyin wrote:

Think of the cases where half the town is in a discord group(quads). An individual has no hope of defeating them. The mob is in total control.

Quads have to speed up a random person as no one in a group can speed each other up (otherwise twins+ would without a doubt be able to massacre a town without any resistance.)

Last edited by fug (2019-12-02 10:47:16)

DiscardedSlinky · 2019-12-02 10:41:19

I think this is a good idea. The problem with it is that there is a TON of ways of grief and killing is one of the least annoying. This will just encourage people to start hiding important items behind trees again, steal all the food, and so many other things. Killing griefers would probably be bored by other ways of grieifng though.

It's a beginner step to a huge problem, but I think it's a good step. You have no idea how many people who play this game get off on killing people. It's really weird. They honestly might just stop playing when they can't brag about pressing two buttons a lot. (which would be great)

I think if you do add this make it so twins-quads only get a single kill between all of them too.

Last edited by DiscardedSlinky (2019-12-02 10:50:06)

Kaveh · 2019-12-02 10:50:24

Although killing/griefing can be a problem, it also feels natural to the game. It shakes things up a bit, making that life unique or stand out among the rest. Yes, it might stand out in a negative way (especially at first), but it makes it so the game isn't completely bland/exactly the same over and over (I talked about this in a diff topic: although there are a lot of diff things you can do in a life, the timeline of the town is always the same moving from the Eve stage to advanced. The only things making a difference there are these disruptive events.)

Anyway, I don't think you should put something into place to prevent mass killing. But if you do, would this restriction apply to war swords? Cuz it'd be weird to me if you can only kill one person as a swordsman and then that's it.

Twisted · 2019-12-02 10:53:51

IMO killing is used for stopping griefing more often that it's used to actually grief. Since murder is more noticeable than most forms of griefing it's the thing that players most associate with griefing.

Limiting kills to one per life wouldn't make a difference to griefers, but it might make a difference to people trying to stop them. It would also make twin griefers more powerful as it becomes more difficult to stop them. Also, it would be very non-intuitive.

I think the game is in a great spot griefing-wise. The curse system works great - griefing still happens, of course, but it's rare enough that it doesn't get too annoying.

DarkDrak · 2019-12-02 11:07:36

I mean, the first option would solve the problem of players roeplaying a serial killer, but would make defending the town against multiple greifers pretty much impossible, since chances are there are only like 1-3 people in a town who actually care to do it. Even if serial killers are in minority, so are vigilantes.
The second option would prevent people being killed individually but uhh... it has lots of back sides. You cant defent your own propriety, you cant have fights outside town. And if the greifer is smart, he'll accuse you of greifing first, get some noob to join his posse and then kill you and get back to greifing.
Also, there's a problem of sabotaging. If people cant kill others, they'll just gonna start stealing and hiding their pies and maliciously watch the villege starve. But that's another issue, isnt it?

What if killing a person made you depressed? Forced a sad face on you and if you kill someone else while depressed, you die of depression. But depression would run off in like 30? minutes and townsfolk could cheer you up, reducind it by idk...5-10? A solo player would get 2-3 kills per game but the town vigilante would get cheered up by the villege and can keep protecting it.

pein · 2019-12-02 12:44:12

I had a griefer mother who killed boys by starving them

somehow still was loved by her daughters and nieces

I was chased more than 20 minutes by them for dumping her bones out
told them griefers don't deserve a grave but they didn't care, they just like to go in-game, beg 40 minutes to get buried and next lives show their grave there

just because people are angry they are not right, and just because one person considers other a griefer it's not necessarily right

I think when we had dodged, griefers didn't mess with the veterans, and it was less killing

people might learn the mechanics and it gets a bit better

Gogo · 2019-12-02 13:42:17

Killing cause depression? I thought it causes joy.

StrongForce · 2019-12-02 13:53:30

Killing being hungry work would be good.
If you don't get fed after killing you starve while in murder debuf

Gogo · 2019-12-02 13:56:19

Hungry work is a better idea, single griefers woul just die if they cannot prove they are not griefing.

Last edited by Gogo (2019-12-02 13:56:51)

Twitchi · 2019-12-02 14:02:44

Let me tell you about a life I lived last night. A bear was in town when I was born. People killed it, but a lot of people died. There were a lot of newer people in town and no bear caves near by, so I suspected it was lead to the town. Then a man who told a new player to take all the pads and toss them all over the ground. The new player, just past the baby stage, kept yelling "you told me too" but the guy chased her down and insisted that she was grieving and shot her anyway. Then another bear came. but this time the bow and all the arrows were gone, and the pads, which were cleaned after being dirtied, were gone as well. We lead bear out of town... but another one came, then I died of old age.

What about something similar to the tool skill. Higher skill points, more kills you are allowed. Another thought. Maybe some positive reinforcement like a "kudos" where you can give another player a thumbs up for doing a good job. Opposite of the curse, you spawn closer to people you have given "kudos" too... so something similar to that. I don't know. Just thinking out loud.

fug · 2019-12-02 14:09:04

StrongForce wrote:

Killing being hungry work would be good.
If you don't get fed after killing you starve while in murder debuf

If you're nude you die. If you're dressed its possible to survive hungry work murders which just means nude people need help murdering people and normal people can survive with zero issues.

Hungry work just tries to mask the issue of reactive matters being too weak and the players needing a bunch of proactive solutions being put in place (certain trees are 100% needed because even after a year and a half we don't have a means to skip them, sheep and other animals could be killed within seconds but you can't keep an eye on them without locking them all up which is pretty ass, etc etc.)

The best solution is just making cursing be a two way street imo. If someone is trolling constantly do you really want to be born near them or they be born near you? Obviously there's an issue if you over use the curse feature but you shouldn't be cursing people every time you have a token nor over after every minor issue that pops up.

Hungry work just deters good players from doing annoying tasks as well as trolls I know I certainly don't clean out sheep pens anymore and cbf to cut down trees 9/10 times due to not wanting to have to constantly eat.

Toxolotl · 2019-12-02 14:12:56

I find the most illusive and difficult griefers to deal with are ones that are not obvious. They steal things when no ones looking, bring in bears, let loose pigs, destroy kilns. You dont need to kill in order to kill a town.

In terms of griefer managements i do think we could use more tools. Main issue with restrictions or adding tools to stop them is the risk of it aiding griefing as well. Knives and bows are a double edged sword. They are a useful tool for griefing but also the main way to end their terror. I think a system that aids in stopping griefers but doesnt give them any more weapons in their arsenal is a good route.

Not sure what a good system or tool for that would be. I think a buff to cursing would be nice. Maybe if enough people curse you in the area you poof out of existence. Also removing the age limit would be nice. Something where you could type a full name at any age. /curse Kirkpatrick Giovanni for example.

Spoonwood · 2019-12-02 14:14:30

I thought about killing being hungry work before reading the above. But, hungry work doesn't work out so well with the cooldown period for killing. And the cooldown period also makes it clear to other people in town who killed.

wondible · 2019-12-02 15:07:07

How about we buff healing instead? Right now it requires sheep tech and is easily griefed in advance.

Of course some care should be taken that a pair can't easily become invincible

One idea: anyone can render first-aid with little or no item to extend or reset the death timer. This would give time to make new pads etc, or get testimony about what happened. With a pair, you would be able to see the conspirator helping them, and that person would have hang around to keep them alive, preventing them from doing much else.

Though - maybe dying people should be allowed to /die so that someone can't keep them alive with no hope of healing. As is I'm sometimes just waiting for the timer to tick down.

Spoonwood · 2019-12-02 19:02:10

I like the idea of buffing healing. I think many in game problems have arisen because of pads getting easily griefed and because they require sheep wool instead of something less costly/accessible earlier in the game.

Kinrany · 2019-12-02 19:03:45

I feel like the anti-griefing measures are already way too complicated and should be redesigned from scratch. Griefers learn. Without a mathematically perfect system it will always be an arms race between griefers and ant-griefing rules.

The first step is to find a precise definition of griefing.

The_Anabaptist · 2019-12-02 20:29:59

Jason,

Why not start with something less dramatic? How about: The murder weapon breaks in the hands of the killer. That would slow down repeat murders, or require somebody to carry multiple knives in a backpack or multiple bows in a horse cart. Both pretty obvious clues the mad lad is up to no good.

The_Anabaptist

DestinyCall · 2019-12-02 20:54:40

Kinrany wrote:

I feel like the anti-griefing measures are already way too complicated and should be redesigned from scratch. Griefers learn. Without a mathematically perfect system it will always be an arms race between griefers and ant-griefing rules.
The first step is to find a precise definition of griefing.

What do you suggest as an alternative? Making the system simpler would make it easier to figure out, don't you think.

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Idea: one kill per life?

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