[Suggestion] Car/Airplane Progressive Improvements

Wuatduhf · 2019-12-09 17:37:13

Cars and Airplanes are a very interesting, but difficult, part of the game to balance. In this thread I will argue for a modular upgrade to both, and an upgrade to the Airplanes’ landing strips, while highlighting the potential griefing that this could, but isn’t guaranteed, to include.

In theory, cars and airplanes are supposed to provide even better forms of transport to conventional vehicles.
In practice, they are considered a massive burden to the town, because the moment they are made, they will almost inevitably be stolen and vanish from the town either due to griefing or newbies dying with it out in the wilderness.
Oil and Kerosene used to be unlimited from Pumpjacks, but this is no longer the case, making them expensive to operate.
Race specialty biomes further constricted Pumpjacks’ operations and construction.
Tire Carts/Horsecarts were buffed from 6 -> 8 slots of storage, while both Car/Airplane still have 4

In my previous buff request, I proposed Rail Tracks be 1:12 Steel-to-tracks, which eventually became 1:8, and they have seen consistent use to this day, albeit still for specific purposes.

It is my opinion that Cars and Airplanes should receive an expansion to their carrying capacity, much like the Tire Carts/Horsecarts. The Crude Car should have 8 large slots and 3 minutes operation time, while the Airplane should have 6 large Slots. This would differentiate the two even further to their specific uses.

In addition, I think the following changes should also be considered:

The Car should have an option to be upgraded using a new item, “Treaded Tires”, which would be standard tires given another layer of rubber, Lathe’d into treads, and then cooked in the oven.
The upgrade gives the car 10 storage slots, 400% Movement speed, and maybe 4m operation time.
The Airplane’s landing strip should be able to become permanent through constant use;
If an airplane lands on a landing strip, it becomes: “Landing Strip - successfully used”.
It will still decay in two hours.
If an airplane lands on the same strip again, it becomes "Landing Strip - established route" and no longer decays.

Legs · 2019-12-09 19:28:37

Cars and planes definitely need some tweaking.

Maybe as a follow up for the family specialty update we could have a transportation update to facilitate trading and travel. A cheaper way to make roads is necessary. What we have now are essentially sidewalks that are too expensive, so they're only effective over short distances. Something like an asphalt road would be really nice. A more complex recipe than simply laying a stone, but also more productive so that roads spanning between villages become feasible.

On top of that make the car's fuel consumption based on distance rather than time and restrict it to roads so that it doesn't get lost. So then a garage and fueling station become part of each participant town's infrastructure, or spaced along the route. Something like a trailer could also be added for more carrying capacity, crafted using rubber tires and newcomen machining. Cars remain expensive and high tech, but also have strong practical uses to balance that out.

Honestly not sure what to do about planes though.

wondible · 2019-12-09 19:55:13

With the current limitations on oil, vehicles will probably have to be "unfueled" and "fueled" where fueled vehicles are perhaps not permanent, but last for many hours.

I imagine a similar mechanic will be needed for electricity since we don't have inter-tile effects. Touch an uppowered device to a running power plant to prove you have one, and then it operates for an extended period of time.

jcwilk · 2019-12-09 20:42:28

Honestly I think there should be an instant-transport option at some point in the tech tree, probably not super deep into it. Think about how long it takes to traverse 1km, even with a fast vehicle it's well over a "year". Who the hell takes a year to make it through 1km of wilderness? 1 game second should be plenty to traverse anything less than 100km -on foot- if your character is assumed to be hustling, given that a game second is a bit less than a week. So IMO it seems extremely reasonable to have some mid-tier tech like a "caravan depot" which connects to other caravan depots and instant transports you as hungry work. Maybe you can link a "brochure" to a caravan depot and you have to walk it/drive it to other caravan depots in order to connect them?

But yeah 8 slots even seems on the low end for how much of a bother it is to build a car. Two people with horse drawn carts sounds 10x more desirable, all things considered, aside from the fact that you need two people but how long does it take to recruit someone compared to building a car? If we could add a massive trailer to the car to hold many more things then maybe it starts to make sense, but I guess the whole tile-to-tile interaction limitation puts a damper on that.

Last edited by jcwilk (2019-12-09 20:43:35)

Greenwood · 2019-12-09 22:05:08

Cars and planes do have lots of potential, and the fact that they are not yet feasible reflects their prototype nature. These cars are still crude cars, after all. I'm guessing that Jason has some plan to turn both of these into beneficial investments for towns after an upgrade or two. Nevertheless, some issues such as the fuel consumption based upon time and the easily-griefed nature of both vehicles limit their use even with upgrades.

But also, even buffed, there is little reason for a city to invest in a plane. To have gotten to that tech level you will have needed one of each race in your town regardless, and even if you need a new seal for your pump after all your rubber-farmers died, it would be easier to seed a town than trade with it. Radios allow people to signal ahead in theory, but the massive amount of time required to make one and the fact you don't know who you're talking to makes this almost impossible. The main use for planes or cars would be as migration vessels: to take the people from one town and move them to the next. Or perhaps even as tourist-vehicles? If that proves to be the case, extra player-carrying capacity might be the most useful thing to upgrade a car or a plane with. An upgraded car that could seat two or three people would be very useful for ferrying people about. Similarly, big planes could be used for entire town migrations, allowing a high-tech civ to keep moving west as their resources ran out.

jcwilk · 2019-12-09 22:18:07

Greenwood wrote:

Cars and planes do have lots of potential, and the fact that they are not yet feasible reflects their prototype nature. These cars are still crude cars, after all. I'm guessing that Jason has some plan to turn both of these into beneficial investments for towns after an upgrade or two. Nevertheless, some issues such as the fuel consumption based upon time and the easily-griefed nature of both vehicles limit their use even with upgrades.
But also, even buffed, there is little reason for a city to invest in a plane. To have gotten to that tech level you will have needed one of each race in your town regardless, and even if you need a new seal for your pump after all your rubber-farmers died, it would be easier to seed a town than trade with it. Radios allow people to signal ahead in theory, but the massive amount of time required to make one and the fact you don't know who you're talking to makes this almost impossible. The main use for planes or cars would be as migration vessels: to take the people from one town and move them to the next. Or perhaps even as tourist-vehicles? If that proves to be the case, extra player-carrying capacity might be the most useful thing to upgrade a car or a plane with. An upgraded car that could seat two or three people would be very useful for ferrying people about. Similarly, big planes could be used for entire town migrations, allowing a high-tech civ to keep moving west as their resources ran out.

Hopefully eventually we'll get some very rare resources that are extremely difficult to find and presumably very far away, or maybe they're simply spawned ~10km north of the eve zigzag (although I hate the eve zigzag tbh, I hope that's going to turn into something less weirdly uniform... it seems ridiculous that players can reverse engineer where eves will spawn, it should be unpredictable)

Wuatduhf · 2019-12-09 22:48:56

jcwilk wrote:

Honestly I think there should be an instant-transport option at some point in the tech tree, probably not super deep into it. Think about how long it takes to traverse 1km, even with a fast vehicle it's well over a "year". Who the hell takes a year to make it through 1km of wilderness? 1 game second should be plenty to traverse anything less than 100km -on foot- if your character is assumed to be hustling, given that a game second is a bit less than a week. So IMO it seems extremely reasonable to have some mid-tier tech like a "caravan depot" which connects to other caravan depots and instant transports you as hungry work. Maybe you can link a "brochure" to a caravan depot and you have to walk it/drive it to other caravan depots in order to connect them?
But yeah 8 slots even seems on the low end for how much of a bother it is to build a car. Two people with horse drawn carts sounds 10x more desirable, all things considered, aside from the fact that you need two people but how long does it take to recruit someone compared to building a car? If we could add a massive trailer to the car to hold many more things then maybe it starts to make sense, but I guess the whole tile-to-tile interaction limitation puts a damper on that.

We have instant transport with the Airplane, and doing this costs 1 pip of a Kerosene tank. 2 if you assume round-trip expense. It's also weird to judge the costs of a tank of Kerosene. Since each pip is worth 7 Buckets of Water, flight has to be very efficient for it to be worth sacrificing that many buckets of plant growth. It's really only feasible for what I would consider "Tier 5" Towns; towns that have become so wealthy and powerful that they possess aircraft that can be used to farm long-distance oil, and where The tanks of Kerosene are as plentiful as Steel.

For comparison, the current Bell town that has been active these last few days I would consider Tier 3, and is constantly teetering on the edge of collapse due to griefing.

jcwilk · 2019-12-09 22:55:55

Wuatduhf wrote:

jcwilk wrote:
Honestly I think there should be an instant-transport option at some point in the tech tree, probably not super deep into it. Think about how long it takes to traverse 1km, even with a fast vehicle it's well over a "year". Who the hell takes a year to make it through 1km of wilderness? 1 game second should be plenty to traverse anything less than 100km -on foot- if your character is assumed to be hustling, given that a game second is a bit less than a week. So IMO it seems extremely reasonable to have some mid-tier tech like a "caravan depot" which connects to other caravan depots and instant transports you as hungry work. Maybe you can link a "brochure" to a caravan depot and you have to walk it/drive it to other caravan depots in order to connect them?
But yeah 8 slots even seems on the low end for how much of a bother it is to build a car. Two people with horse drawn carts sounds 10x more desirable, all things considered, aside from the fact that you need two people but how long does it take to recruit someone compared to building a car? If we could add a massive trailer to the car to hold many more things then maybe it starts to make sense, but I guess the whole tile-to-tile interaction limitation puts a damper on that.
We have instant transport with the Airplane, and doing this costs 1 pip of a Kerosene tank. 2 if you assume round-trip expense. It's also weird to judge the costs of a tank of Kerosene. Since each pip is worth 7 Buckets of Water, flight has to be very efficient for it to be worth sacrificing that many buckets of plant growth. It's really only feasible for what I would consider "Tier 5" Towns; towns that have become so wealthy and powerful that they possess aircraft that can be used to farm long-distance oil, and where The tanks of Kerosene are as plentiful as Steel.
For comparison, the current Bell town that has been active these last few days I would consider Tier 3, and is constantly teetering on the edge of collapse due to griefing.

Do you think a lower tech tier might deserve an instant transport that perhaps doesn't go quite as far as the airplane one? I mean heck, waystones ought to let you instant transport to where they point given how sped up time is. Same with bell towers. Having it take any time at all to go to a known location that's only a few km away doesn't make any sense to me when a game second is almost a week.

Wuatduhf · 2019-12-09 22:56:05

Greenwood wrote:

Cars and planes do have lots of potential, and the fact that they are not yet feasible reflects their prototype nature. These cars are still crude cars, after all. I'm guessing that Jason has some plan to turn both of these into beneficial investments for towns after an upgrade or two. Nevertheless, some issues such as the fuel consumption based upon time and the easily-griefed nature of both vehicles limit their use even with upgrades.
But also, even buffed, there is little reason for a city to invest in a plane. To have gotten to that tech level you will have needed one of each race in your town regardless, and even if you need a new seal for your pump after all your rubber-farmers died, it would be easier to seed a town than trade with it. Radios allow people to signal ahead in theory, but the massive amount of time required to make one and the fact you don't know who you're talking to makes this almost impossible. The main use for planes or cars would be as migration vessels: to take the people from one town and move them to the next. Or perhaps even as tourist-vehicles? If that proves to be the case, extra player-carrying capacity might be the most useful thing to upgrade a car or a plane with. An upgraded car that could seat two or three people would be very useful for ferrying people about. Similarly, big planes could be used for entire town migrations, allowing a high-tech civ to keep moving west as their resources ran out.

Specialization has definitely made crafting of both Airplanes and Cars a chore; but families living with each other is still not entirely necessary for planes/cars to continue to operate. Their main requirement is the rubber for the four wheels, and then the kerosene to maintain their operation. Additional rubber for operating the Pumpjacks in the winter biomes, too.

This is an entirely separate discussion, though, as Jason would have to tackle that on its own rather than do both Cars/Airplanes AND the Biome specialties at the same time. I still fervently disagree with the method he carried it out, as he is essentially forcing families to be next to one another and to spur on the constant multi-racial megatowns. Imo, he should have made the resources easier or more plentiful for the specific races, rather than completely locking off that content to other tribes.

What if working in a Specialty biome required 5 Tool slots, for example?

Again, digressing from the purpose of this post.

Wuatduhf · 2019-12-09 22:58:42

jcwilk wrote:

Wuatduhf wrote:
jcwilk wrote:
Honestly I think there should be an instant-transport option at some point in the tech tree, probably not super deep into it. Think about how long it takes to traverse 1km, even with a fast vehicle it's well over a "year". Who the hell takes a year to make it through 1km of wilderness? 1 game second should be plenty to traverse anything less than 100km -on foot- if your character is assumed to be hustling, given that a game second is a bit less than a week. So IMO it seems extremely reasonable to have some mid-tier tech like a "caravan depot" which connects to other caravan depots and instant transports you as hungry work. Maybe you can link a "brochure" to a caravan depot and you have to walk it/drive it to other caravan depots in order to connect them?
But yeah 8 slots even seems on the low end for how much of a bother it is to build a car. Two people with horse drawn carts sounds 10x more desirable, all things considered, aside from the fact that you need two people but how long does it take to recruit someone compared to building a car? If we could add a massive trailer to the car to hold many more things then maybe it starts to make sense, but I guess the whole tile-to-tile interaction limitation puts a damper on that.
We have instant transport with the Airplane, and doing this costs 1 pip of a Kerosene tank. 2 if you assume round-trip expense. It's also weird to judge the costs of a tank of Kerosene. Since each pip is worth 7 Buckets of Water, flight has to be very efficient for it to be worth sacrificing that many buckets of plant growth. It's really only feasible for what I would consider "Tier 5" Towns; towns that have become so wealthy and powerful that they possess aircraft that can be used to farm long-distance oil, and where The tanks of Kerosene are as plentiful as Steel.
For comparison, the current Bell town that has been active these last few days I would consider Tier 3, and is constantly teetering on the edge of collapse due to griefing.
Do you think a lower tech tier might deserve an instant transport that perhaps doesn't go quite as far as the airplane one? I mean heck, waystones ought to let you instant transport to where they point given how sped up time is. Same with bell towers. Having it take any time at all to go to a known location that's only a few km away doesn't make any sense to me when a game second is almost a week.

Nah. Instant teleports imo take the player away from the difficulties of transportation and discovery of old civilizations, lost items/gear/horses, etc. etc. The airplane being so end-game and so costly makes it balanced for the instant-transport effect it provides. It hurts to only be able to effectively carry 3 Items + Kerosene every time you fly with it, of course.

If Jason looks into any other transport tech, it should utilize the existing tech we have, which would be roads/Railroads.

jcwilk · 2019-12-09 23:06:37

Wuatduhf wrote:

jcwilk wrote:
Do you think a lower tech tier might deserve an instant transport that perhaps doesn't go quite as far as the airplane one? I mean heck, waystones ought to let you instant transport to where they point given how sped up time is. Same with bell towers. Having it take any time at all to go to a known location that's only a few km away doesn't make any sense to me when a game second is almost a week.
Nah. Instant teleports imo take the player away from the difficulties of transportation and discovery of old civilizations, lost items/gear/horses, etc. etc. The airplane being so end-game and so costly makes it balanced for the instant-transport effect it provides. It hurts to only be able to effectively carry 3 Items + Kerosene every time you fly with it, of course.
If Jason looks into any other transport tech, it should utilize the existing tech we have, which would be roads/Railroads.

Well, there's a big difference between exploration, transport of goods, and simply getting yourself to a known location. Maybe there could be a second-tier tech way to transport to a map location (eg with waystones or similar) but your backpack has to be empty or nonexistent and your hands need to be empty (maybe pockets could be overlooked, adding extra value to cloth clothing). It just seems so strange to me that with anything but an airplane it takes years or decades to do a round trip or two to a place a couple km away.

Wuatduhf · 2019-12-09 23:49:41

I know it doesn't make sense, but I would not literally translate everything in the game as they are IRL. There is no way the crude car we have ingame matches 1:1 to a real-life car. Bears wouldn't just take 3 arrows to take out, and couldn't be avoided by standing on a berry bush. A single berry lasts long enough to keep you well-fed for a year. And so on, and so on.

Sure, the game having multi-person transport could/should exist if Jason was willing to implement it. If Rails could do other things besides very very slowly move 4 large items from Point A to Point B, maybe they would be more included with towns. But for a gameplay 'perspective', imo, having a way for people to insta-travel from one place to another - even without items - is not that interesting and trivializes the vastness of the map and towns.

Spoonwood · 2019-12-10 01:07:11

Greenwood wrote:

These cars are still crude cars, after all. I'm guessing that Jason has some plan to turn both of these into beneficial investments for towns after an upgrade or two.

Crude cars got introduced almost a year ago to the day now: https://onetech.info/versions/182

Planes at the end of last January (they look like a car... it's somewhat of an eyesore) https://onetech.info/versions/196

Crude cars have had no tweaks so far as I know, and planes barely any. Oil rigs got tweaked because of it's relationship with the water supply and the 'everything runs out' philosophy during The Rift, and later tarry spots got tweaked because he didn't want them in two extreme biomes so that he could institute racism into the game.

Maybe he has plans, but it's been a long time without changes.

Wuatduhf wrote:

We have instant transport with the Airplane, and doing this costs 1 pip of a Kerosene tank. 2 if you assume round-trip expense. It's also weird to judge the costs of a tank of Kerosene. Since each pip is worth 7 Buckets of Water, flight has to be very efficient for it to be worth sacrificing that many buckets of plant growth. It's really only feasible for what I would consider "Tier 5" Towns; towns that have become so wealthy and powerful that they possess aircraft that can be used to farm long-distance oil, and where The tanks of Kerosene are as plentiful as Steel.

This is another reason as to how oil running out doesn't make sense and is not good for the game.

I would like the ideas you proposed Wuatduhf, I think, however with oil rigs going dry and not having any alternative to get late game water via technology, I'm not so sure that cars or airplanes would be worth it for a town.

If you see a car on the bigserver it might just be best to lock one up behind stone walls. I do feel it's unfortunate that cars are worse than useless, and seem positively counterproductive, but I think that's the case currently. Like I saw one of the belltowns that Twisted played in early in the morning and then saw Lizzee play it. In one life that Lizzee played was no kerosone to run the diesel water pump (she wasn't Ginger and didn't know how to do oil either). She got born somewhere else and it turned out she was close to that town again which she learned in her 30s as I recall. Still no kerosone for the diesel water pump. I saw someone on discord talk about making notes about a location of an oil rig, and had played it again and no one had gotten more kerosone. When towns struggle to even make kerosone for water, and cars and planes rely on oil, and oil runs out locally, cars and planes may as well get locked up behind ancient stone walls and turn into museum pieces. I wish it could be otherwise, but alas I think that's the best choice.

Wuatduhf · 2019-12-10 02:18:33

Spoonwood wrote:

Wuatduhf wrote:
Blah blah a bunch of stuff about tech progression.
This is another reason as to how oil running out doesn't make sense and is not good for the game.
I would like the ideas you proposed Wuatduhf, I think, however with oil rigs going dry and not having any alternative to get late game water via technology, I'm not so sure that cars or airplanes would be worth it for a town.
If you see a car on the bigserver it might just be best to lock one up behind stone walls. I do feel it's unfortunate that cars are worse than useless, and seem positively counterproductive, but I think that's the case currently. Like I saw one of the belltowns that Twisted played in early in the morning and then saw Lizzee play it. In one life that Lizzee played was no kerosone to run the diesel water pump (she wasn't Ginger and didn't know how to do oil either). She got born somewhere else and it turned out she was close to that town again which she learned in her 30s as I recall. Still no kerosone for the diesel water pump. I saw someone on discord talk about making notes about a location of an oil rig, and had played it again and no one had gotten more kerosone. When towns struggle to even make kerosone for water, and cars and planes rely on oil, and oil runs out locally, cars and planes may as well get locked up behind ancient stone walls and turn into museum pieces. I wish it could be otherwise, but alas I think that's the best choice.

Kerosene is feasible but difficult. It requires perfect coordination and resource gathering from every single race. But again, this is a topic that's not about the Cars/Airplanes themselves, but the resources involving them.

I'll continue that conversation over here instead. This post should stay focused on the Airplanes/Cars irregardless of the extreme difficulty of Kerosene.

Gogo · 2019-12-10 02:53:40

The cars should have their owners (keys for car).

Spoonwood · 2019-12-10 03:22:23

Wuatduhf wrote:

This post should stay focused on the Airplanes/Cars irregardless of the extreme difficulty of Kerosene.

Cars and planes aren't worth building, because of the kerosone issue at present. We simply can't evaluate the value of cars and planes without taking into account their cost.

Wuatduhf · 2019-12-10 16:52:26

Spoonwood wrote:

Wuatduhf wrote:
This post should stay focused on the Airplanes/Cars irregardless of the extreme difficulty of Kerosene.
Cars and planes aren't worth building, because of the kerosone issue at present. We simply can't evaluate the value of cars and planes without taking into account their cost.

Uhh, yes you can. Just because kerosene has a huge cost to production doesn't mean you can't evaluate cars or airplanes absent of the cost of fuel. It literally just means you're looking at how everything else balances out against other existing features/content of the game. Which is what this thread is supposed to do.

We can take cars and horses and directly compare them. The horsecarts are only 200% vs. the Car's 300%, but the Tire horsecart has more than double the carrying capacity, since the car typically has to use up a slot on the Kerosene.

The content was balanced for a different time, when the Tire Horse-cart only had 6 slots, when biomes were unrestricted, when Box Slots and Wall Boxes/Slots didn't exist. These alone are enough to warrant a revamp of the cars and airplanes without even having to go into the scarcity of Kerosene in the last few months of updates.

Spoonwood · 2019-12-10 17:19:41

Wuatduhf wrote:

Uhh, yes you can. Just because kerosene has a huge cost to production doesn't mean you can't evaluate cars or airplanes absent of the cost of fuel.

Yeah, you're right what I said was wrong. I should rephrase that.

We simply can't evaluate the value of cars and planes *fully* without taking into account their cost.

Wuatduf wrote:

The content was balanced for a different time, when the Tire Horse-cart only had 6 slots, when biomes were unrestricted, when Box Slots and Wall Boxes/Slots didn't exist.

The tire-horse cart did not exist when cars got introduced. The tire-horse cart didn't exist until October. Cars have not undergone a rework whatsoever since they've gotten introduced, at least not according to my recollection. I'm not so sure that there ever existed an attempted balancing of them against horsecarts. Their faster speed might just have happened because cars can move faster than horses in real life. And they might have gotten made to kill snakes, because cars can do that. As I recall, cars and planes date from around the same period of the two radio updates. That may well suggest that balancing wasn't really a consideration in the first place when those things got made.

pein · 2019-12-11 13:01:47

flintstone cars or bcicles

Gogo · 2019-12-11 14:11:42

Scooters are easier to make. Two desks, one stick, three tires and a binder.

jcwilk · 2019-12-12 01:39:38

Gogo wrote:

Scooters are easier to make. Two desks, one stick, three tires and a binder.
https://d38lgik2zino6p.cloudfront.net/i … 5233_1.jpg

Good luck getting that to be anywhere near running speed offroad though

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[Suggestion] Car/Airplane Progressive Improvements

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