Coming soon: voluntary leadership

Kinrany · 2019-12-12 17:50:53

jasonrohrer wrote:

When you follow one of your followers, that follower should be promoted above you, instead of you getting demoted below them.

Yeah, that's a good way to describe it :0

Wuatduhf · 2019-12-12 17:57:04

And thus, with that change, a Hierarchy can witness a King/Queen follow one of their 'noble children', and upon death, their child will inherit the structure below them and become the new King/Queen.

The structure would be more difficult to manage the further down it goes, of course. I haven't fully thought thru what it will look like for a Baron/Count to follow one of their children, who is following the leader that had been above them.

Last edited by Wuatduhf (2019-12-12 17:58:18)

Wuatduhf · 2019-12-12 18:03:27

Another point to toss in, we are going to start seeing a lot more of Maslow's 3rd and 4th Tier in the "Hierarchy of Needs".

Well-developed towns that we are starting to see spring up more with the production of Kerosene, may be able to sustain this 3rd and 4th tier enough that the Hierarchy system will flourish naturally, after the first week of people trying it out and spamming everyone they want to follow.

The best thing that towns can do in the current-time is buckling down and increasing food diversity as much as possible, so that food lasts very long and people are building Yum chains.

jcwilk · 2019-12-12 18:11:00

jasonrohrer wrote:

jcwilk wrote:
Kinrany wrote:
oh, exiling doesn't prevent a person from being your follower
I think you meant "leader" not "follower" right?
On that note, does exiling someone make them unfollow you and be unable to follow you until they're redeemed? Presumably also unable to follow any of the exiler's follower tree?
Haven't tried it yet but I'm already very into it. We need more recursive shit fosho
Exiling and leader-follow status are separate systems. This allows for your trusted leader or trusted follower to get exiled by a higher-up, and you can be like WTF, and go to the higher-up to protest.
It currently says YOUR EXILED BARON STEVE or whatever.
Will make sure it also says YOUR EXILED FOLLOWER MARY
There is a tiny information hole here, and I'm not sure how to patch it. You don't know WHO exiled someone, so you don't know who to go to in order to protest. You just know that either you or someone above you did it. And the full information here is hard to provide, because it's complicated. You could be exiled by a long list of people, so we can't present that info on mouse-over.

I could make REDEEM pass downwards. So if a Baron exiles someone, the Count, Duke, or King above them can redeem them, overruling the Baron's exile. So you can always appeal to the supreme leader for help. Well.... actually, maybe not. I guess individual people's exile lists should be inalienable. Or.... maybe... submitting to a leader means you give up the sanctity of your own exile list? If that leader keeps overruling you and redeeming people, against your wishes, you can always stop following them, or convince your leaders to stop following them.

Well the "long list" that exiled can only be among your chain of upstream leaders right? So why not just show the highest leader from the list, if they redeem or get unfollowed and one of the lower leaders is now the highest leader that exiled them then it can change to show that person at that point.

I don't think a king would see that a duke had exiled anyone right? So it would be weird to let the king redeem someone who looks to the king as if they're not exiled in the first place.

My earlier suggestion to let upstream leaders see that someone has been exiled by a downstream follower (but in a visually distinct way from how their own exiles or exiles from upstream leaders look) would fix this tidily, along with doubling as a way to surface a griefer to a king without having to find them and communicate it as per the original intent of the suggestion

Kinrany · 2019-12-12 18:13:08

Wuatduhf wrote:

The structure would be more difficult to manage the further down it goes, of course. I haven't fully thought thru what it will look like for a Baron/Count to follow one of their children, who is following the leader that had been above them.

Uhh, good point.
In a chain A -> B -> C -> D, C following A should result in B -> C -> A -> D.
So if Alice was following Bob and decided to follow Charlie, Charlie will be inserted between Alice and Bob.
This will preserve the tree in all cases where a loop could form.

Kinrany · 2019-12-12 18:47:59

I still wonder whether we can get rid of exiling completely.
We could require the leader to accept their new follower. This way everyone who isn't in the same tree is already kind of an exile.

Currently anyone can become an "ally", at least as long as there's only one main hierarchy. The difference between an ally and a neutral is insignificant compared to the difference between an exile and anyone else.
It doesn't even matter that much with two competing hierarchies. It's not enough to exile the competing leader: his followers can temporarily follow you to pretend that they are on your side.

Exiling a single person is basically a "do not hire ever" marker.

I guess if we required leaders to approve their followers, half the rules would change. It would be a tree of two-way contracts. "I trust you, I give up some of my freedoms in your favor, and I expect you to act in my interests." So exiling would be a more specific feature on top of a more general framework for coordination.

Last edited by Kinrany (2019-12-12 18:48:38)

jcwilk · 2019-12-12 19:08:40

Kinrany wrote:

It doesn't even matter that much with two competing hierarchies. It's not enough to exile the competing leader: his followers can temporarily follow you to pretend that they are on your side.

Mostly related to this, or specifically, to address the issue of spies switching sides... Could we get an indicator of how long they've been following that person? It would be nice to mouse over and see if they've just switched or been born into it for their whole life.

Switches will legitimately happen of course, so there's still room for espionage (eg, no I'm not a spy officer, my previous leader died recently) but it would make it less trivial at least. Leaving your leader and proclaiming allegiance to someone new and then switching back should have -some- kind of consequence or limitation to how it's done. Maybe a cooldown, maybe a limited number of pledge tokens you spawn with, though even just having a visual timer reset is something at least

Last edited by jcwilk (2019-12-12 19:09:13)

MCzerotacos · 2019-12-12 19:12:52

jasonrohrer wrote:

Why:
To give players a way to organize themselves
To provide an optional structure to social interactions
To provide a shorthand for social information, like trust
To allow people to receive social information at a glance
To make the whole thing convenient, automated (where possible), and flexible.
To experiment with a bizarre and fascinating form of government (voluntary nobility)

What:
Each player chooses one direct leader for themselves.
Players can switch leaders at any time, or decide to go back to having no leader.
Everyone who has the same leader can be visually recognized.
More details about a person's status can be had via text on mouse-over.
When a leader chooses a leader for themselves, a multi-level hierarchy is formed, and all their followers see the super-leader as a leader as well, and all people under the super-leader are visually united.
The structure can be changed instantly when a sub-leader changes leaders.
Any player can exile another player
A player's exile status is only visible to the person who exiled them and any people in that person's follower tree
Changing leaders will change who you see as exiled

Text Labels:
Your direct leader is "Your Lord John Smith" or "Your Lady Eve Smith" on mouse-over
Leaders with sub-leaders beneath them become Barons, Counts, Dukes, Kings, Emperors, High Emperors, and Supreme Emperors, depending on how many tiers are beneath them.
Example: A King might have two Dukes below him, and those Dukes might have two Counts each, for a total of four Counts. Those counts might each have two Barons, for a total of eight Barons. Each Baron might have a few Lords, who in turn each have a few direct followers.
You see any super leaders above you as Your Baroness, Your King, etc.
If you follow a super-leader directly, you still see their tiered title (if you follow a King directly, they are still Your King, and not Your Lord).
Anyone who is exiled to you (anyone you or one of your leaders has exiled) is shown as Exiled Eve Smith on mouse-over
Someone can still be your leader even if they are exiled (if they are exiled by another leader that you follow), like Your Exiled Lady Eve Smith.
People who have no leader, and are part of no tree (and thus have no badge) can still be exiled. If so, they are seen by the exiler's followers as having a black X where their badge would go.
Anyone in your tree who is not your leader is shown as Ally Eve Smith.
Mousing over anyone shows their leadership status, even if they're not in your tree (so you can see Barons who are not Your Baron)
It's possible to have allies who are leaders in other parts of your tree, but who aren't your leader, such as Ally Baroness Eve Smith.
Followers are seen as Your Follower Eve Smith on mouse-over. Leaders who follow you will have their title seen too, like Your Follower Countess Eve Smith.
Visual Labels:
Badges are visible only when you're wearing a tunic (body clothing).
Each leader gets a unique color.
Your current badge color is determined by the leader at the top of your tree.
Allies, and you, all have a diamond-shaped badge of the appropriate color.
Leaders will have chevrons above their diamond depending on their leadership tier. Lords will have one chevron, barons two, dukes three, etc. These chevrons will match the color of the leader at the top of their tree.
Anyone who is currently exiled from your point of view will have a black X over their badge (their badge is still present so their leadership status and alliance can be known).
If you are a leader, you can recognize your followers as people who have fewer chevrons than you do.
How:
Say "I Follow Eve Smith" to start following someone
Say "I Follow You" to start following the closest person
Say "I Follow Myself" to have no leader
Say "I exile Eve Smith" or "I exile you" to exile someone
Say "I redeem Eve Smith" or "I redeem you" to un-exile someone.
Children inherit their mother's leaders at birth
When a leader dies, whatever leader they are following inherits their followers, and their followers inherit their exile list.
If a leader dies who is following no one, their sub-kingdom is divided until the sub-leaders, who are now left hanging with no leader, can agree on a new super-leader.
Interesting properties:
If you are exiled, it only matters as much as the exiling person has followers.
Getting exiled by a loner will have almost no effect. Getting exiled by a king will mean lots of people will see a black X on your chest.
Killing your exiler will not free you from your exiled status, unless that exiler has no leader to inherit your exile status.
When a bad leader loses followers, the effect of their exiles is diminished.
You can effectively free yourself from an unfair exile by convincing people to pick a different leader.
You have to wait until Age 11 to switch leaders, if you inherit one
You have to wait until Age 15 to have no leader, if you inherit one

Notes:
None of this has any direct gameplay effect.
These labels convey information about the past social decisions of other people.
Inspired by a suggestion from forum user Kinrany
Imagine if a society was structured this way in real life...

One thing I would like to see added to this is, will there be different "clan tags" for who is following who?

jasonrohrer · 2019-12-12 19:28:39

I just checked the code, and it doesn't let you follow or exile yourself.

The two-way contract is interesting, but much more inconvenient and harder to manage and maintain.

Something interesting that I've been thinking about. In general, even in real life, you can't force someone to follow you, but you also can't prevent them from following you. If they want to treat you as your leader, you can't stop them. I mean, unless you issue them a command to stop following you. "I'm not your leader. That's a direct order!" But it's a self-defeating order, right?

I'm reminded of that scene at the end of Sword in the Stone where they all decide Arthur is king, and he's like WTF, I don't want to be king! But they all hail him anyway, and they stick him in the castle, and he's basically trapped.

This is why it's kinda foolish to view the leaders as the powerful ones. The masses are the powerful ones. The leader is their slave in a very real way.

Anyway, regarding switching sides, etc... I think that's okay, because a loner switching sides doesn't change the info that much. Just one guy with a different color badge. Sub-leaders switching sides, is a bigger deal, but that will happen less often, because a group of people has trusted them If they do it too much, their followers will leave them. Our leader is clearly fickle, let's pick a different leader.

This already happens in real life, because you don't just hand valuable resources to some private in the army. You might not even let him in. The fact that he has no chevrons means he's something of an uncertain factor. But if I guy comes up with your color and a lot of chevrons, you'll trust him a bit more.

Of course, he could be a rogue baron who has just switched sides to trick you... I guess that's the real case we're worried about. But as we go further up the tree, those problems become less frequent and easier to settle. There aren't that many barons, so they don't switch sides that much, and when they do, and we're not sure about it, we go talk to the Count. If the Count says they know nothing about that baron, and that the baron is a spy, the count can exile the Baron, and the problem is solved.

There is a question about people UNDER an exiled Baron, and what happens there. They aren't (currently) seen as exiled themselves. They did nothing wrong.... I think I may need to fix that. They should be highly motivated to stop following the exiled Baron, right? Not just slink along under him and trick people into seeing them as allies. Maybe they could get "half an X", or a black \ over their badge...

jcwilk · 2019-12-12 19:41:57

jasonrohrer wrote:

There is a question about people UNDER an exiled Baron, and what happens there. They aren't (currently) seen as exiled themselves. They did nothing wrong.... I think I may need to fix that. They should be highly motivated to stop following the exiled Baron, right? Not just slink along under him and trick people into seeing them as allies. Maybe they could get "half an X", or a black \ over their badge...

Yeah downstream from an exile def seems worth surfacing, sounds reasonable.

Exiled by downstream seems like it deserves the same kind of similar but visually distinct treatment, not quite as important as exiled by upstream but still essential especially if upstreams can undo downstream exiles. A king should have access to the information about who's exiling who in their kingdom.

jcwilk · 2019-12-12 19:46:00

Oh, don't think anyone's said this apologies if they have, but what about blocking an exiled person from exiling anyone unless they unfollow first, or maybe it just hides their exiles while they're still attached with an upstream exile against them. Basically means that a king can immediately clear out bogus exiles by exiling the offender unless the offender chooses to break ties

DestinyCall · 2019-12-12 19:51:28

This is getting increasingly convoluted ...

jasonrohrer · 2019-12-12 20:09:44

Yeah, so got it working so that if someone is downstream from an exiled person, they show up as DUBIOUS. They are in doubt because they are still following a now-exiled person. Someone higher up has exiled their leader, but they haven't chosen to jump ship yet. What's up there? They are in doubt.

Destiny, it's not convoluted in terms of what you see/do on the ground. You pick one person to follow. You exile whoever is bothering you. Two new verbs. Plus a redemption verb so you can fix exile mistakes.

There is some convoluted stuff in the underlying implementation, but it does everything automatically in the background, and everything just works out how it should in a logical way. People get promoted and demoted and cast into doubt and redeemed from doubt and all that automatically, as the leadership structure changes.

As an atom in this system, you do your part by using your best judgement in a single choice-point: who do you follow? Who's the one person who will be the best choice for you?

Kinrany · 2019-12-12 20:21:23

jasonrohrer wrote:

Something interesting that I've been thinking about. In general, even in real life, you can't force someone to follow you, but you also can't prevent them from following you. If they want to treat you as your leader, you can't stop them. I mean, unless you issue them a command to stop following you. "I'm not your leader. That's a direct order!" But it's a self-defeating order, right?

That's true. But right now being a follower does two things no matter what your leader thinks of you:
1. You get information about all the other followers
2. You affect all the other followers by making them see you as an ally

I guess the second one is similar to a real life situation where anyone can claim to be a feminist even if they're hated by half of the other people who also claim the same thing. On the other hand, I think such claims are relatively inconsequential IRL. Not sure.

jasonrohrer wrote:

I'm reminded of that scene at the end of Sword in the Stone where they all decide Arthur is king, and he's like WTF, I don't want to be king! But they all hail him anyway, and they stick him in the castle, and he's basically trapped.

That's fictional evidence though

jasonrohrer wrote:

There is a question about people UNDER an exiled Baron, and what happens there. They aren't (currently) seen as exiled themselves. They did nothing wrong.... I think I may need to fix that. They should be highly motivated to stop following the exiled Baron, right? Not just slink along under him and trick people into seeing them as allies. Maybe they could get "half an X", or a black \ over their badge...

Oh yeah, people should know that they've been exiled by one of their leaders. Hmm, can they just see themselves as exiles?

Also, this has already been mentioned somewhere, but can the exiles be also banned from following someone who exiled them? I should probably reread both threads...

jasonrohrer · 2019-12-12 20:35:11

No one is banned from doing anything when exiled. They keep whatever leaders, and can change leaders whenever.

They do see themselves as exiled, assuming that they still follow the chain of command that exiled them. If they switch leaders, they no longer see themselves as exiled. This makes sense. While you have a leader, you trust their judgement, including their judgement about you. Like IRL, where you abide by laws, and submit to police when you yourself break the law.

If their leader is exiled, they see themselves as dubious.

Kinrany wrote:

But right now being a follower does two things no matter what your leader thinks of you:
1. You get information about all the other followers
2. You affect all the other followers by making them see you as an ally

Only 2 is true.

Everyone currently sees all badges and titles for all trees. So you can know who the other guy's King is, because he is decorated. You don't see him as YOUR KING JAMES, just KING JAMES, and his badge is a different color from yours, but you still see his chevrons. You can also see all of King Jame's followers without following him.

The main info you gain by joining is the shared exile list that the king is maintaining, but that doesn't seem like a big secret.

As for (2), yes, this is true, but that will just mean that people will treat allies with some hesitation. Anyone can be a low-level ally, right?

If someone is constantly switching sides, the solution is simple: just exile them from your side. Then you will always see them with a black X yourself, and if they ever join your side again, all your followers will see the X too.

"I'd better keep out of Kingdom Y, because I'm currently exiled there!"

Coconut Fruit · 2019-12-12 20:54:26

Interesting update.
But I wonder if it will be used.
How do people convenience others to follow them?
Experienced players would prefer to be followed than to follow anyone less experienced... Probably.

My prediction is that phrase "I follow..." will be rarely used.
It will be also hard to explain to people what it actually does.

Kinrany · 2019-12-12 21:16:56

jasonrohrer wrote:

Everyone currently sees all badges and titles for all trees. So you can know who the other guy's King is, because he is decorated. You don't see him as YOUR KING JAMES, just KING JAMES, and his badge is a different color from yours, but you still see his chevrons. You can also see all of King Jame's followers without following him.
The main info you gain by joining is the shared exile list that the king is maintaining, but that doesn't seem like a big secret.

Hmm. Maybe you can band with other exiles. But that's about as useful as recruiting neutrals, I guess.

jcwilk · 2019-12-12 21:26:37

Would be great if the web family trees page/tool thing showed who the person was following at time of death, even better if it also showed who was following them but that gets trickier since it could be 20 people. Ought to show the title they had on death too.

Last edited by jcwilk (2019-12-12 21:27:03)

eajorstad · 2019-12-12 21:47:03

DestinyCall wrote:

This is getting increasingly convoluted ...

My thoughts exactly.

DestinyCall · 2019-12-12 21:54:48

Coconut Fruit wrote:

Interesting update.
But I wonder if it will be used.
How do people convenience others to follow them?

My loyalty can be bought. I only ask that you give me one goose to prove that you are worth following.

I will also accept non-pitbull puppies.

Kinrany · 2019-12-12 23:29:33

Random thought: an important quality of any modern organization is that it pays its members.

Food may be even more important in OHOL than in real life, so I'd expect a really powerful king to control the distribution of food.
But I guess it's practically impossible to control access to food in OHOL. You can always munch berries. Unless the efficiency gains are so huge that you can appoint a guard to every farm.

DestinyCall · 2019-12-12 23:42:34

Kinrany wrote:

Random thought: an important quality of any modern organization is that it pays its members.
Food may be even more important in OHOL than in real life, so I'd expect a really powerful king to control the distribution of food.
But I guess it's practically impossible to control access to food in OHOL. You can always munch berries. Unless the efficiency gains are so huge that you can appoint a guard to every farm.

Make a yum station and hand out burritos to all your supporters.

You can be the taco king.

....

Also please point me in the direction of an organization that gives you money to join. In my experience, it is usually the opposite.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-12-13 00:04:16)

TheRubyCart · 2019-12-13 00:01:08

DestinyCall wrote:

TheRubyCart wrote:
Hello, I've Bought your game before it was released on steam and I would like to say, when is this new update coming out? I've seen a normal player make their improved version of this, and yours seems better.
Also for the 2nd time again just incase, When is this update coming out? It'll inspire me not to quit before 60 due to a government giving me excitement
Bless u reader :3
The game typically updates each week on Friday. The scope of the updates vary from week to week, but you can usually expect something exciting or different or game-breaking on update day.
For a list of past updates, check out the News forum:
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewforum.php?id=4

Thanks, Sometimes it's earlier or later, I'm assuming Jason lives in the west so it'll be Saturday when He updates it for me

Bless you

jasonrohrer · 2019-12-13 00:04:09

Yes, it comes out when I get it done. I always shoot for Thursday, but it often ends up being Friday or even Saturday.

Kinrany · 2019-12-13 00:16:01

DestinyCall wrote:

Also please point me in the direction of an organization that gives you money to join. In my experience, it is usually the opposite.

I mean, salary?

But you pay taxes to governments, hm.

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