Coming soon: voluntary leadership

DestinyCall · 2019-12-13 00:30:24

Kinrany wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
Also please point me in the direction of an organization that gives you money to join. In my experience, it is usually the opposite.
I mean, salary?
But you pay taxes to governments, hm.

Ah - I see what you mean now. I was thinking of clubs that require fees from their members to fund club-related activities. Technically, the king could try demanding part of the harvest to feed his soldiers or whatever.

But I'd say we are not yet at the stage where people will want government services badly enough to pay taxes to the local king or baron. We are still at the "bribing people to join the pyramid scheme" stage, I think.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-12-13 01:26:54)

jcwilk · 2019-12-13 00:39:09

Kinrany wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
Also please point me in the direction of an organization that gives you money to join. In my experience, it is usually the opposite.
I mean, salary?
But you pay taxes to governments, hm.

[Hook]
Cause I'm the taxman
Yeah, I'm the taxman

[Outro]
And you're working for no one but me (Taxman!)

Sopbucket · 2019-12-13 05:46:33

So, one thing is still not clear to me. If I'm a lone traveler, and I walk into a town with a pre-established hierarchy that goes all the way up to King, and I choose to follow that King directly, does that make me a Duke? If so, then I forsee this being a problem - most people are going to want to be as highly ranked as they can in society, which is going to make it harder to keep multiple tiers in an organization and the robustness that comes with it. Also, when a Duke dies, do all of their immediate followers become Dukes suddenly? That's not how titles are supposed work.

If this isn't the case already, I would say rank should always depend on the tiers of followers beneath you, and should be independent of the rank of your own leader, who is more like your point of contact in the organization. If you follow a King, you are just a follower, but you can still recruit followers beneath you and become a lord. You probably don't want to follow the king then, because if he dies you're no longer part of the organization. This means that you don't have the strict branching hierarchy of all lords under a baron, all barons under a count, etc, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

jcwilk · 2019-12-13 06:16:18

Sopbucket wrote:

So, one thing is still not clear to me. If I'm a lone traveler, and I walk into a town with a pre-established hierarchy that goes all the way up to King, and I choose to follow that King directly, does that make me a Duke? If so, then I forsee this being a problem - most people are going to want to be as highly ranked as they can in society, which is going to make it harder to keep multiple tiers in an organization and the robustness that comes with it. Also, when a Duke dies, do all of their immediate followers become Dukes suddenly? That's not how titles are supposed work.
If this isn't the case already, I would say rank should always depend on the tiers of followers beneath you, and should be independent of the rank of your own leader, who is more like your point of contact in the organization. If you follow a King, you are just a follower, but you can still recruit followers beneath you and become a lord. You probably don't want to follow the king then, because if he dies you're no longer part of the organization. This means that you don't have the strict branching hierarchy of all lords under a baron, all barons under a count, etc, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Pretty sure it's already as you're requesting, number of levels beneath you is your rank

Edit: here's the quote:

jasonrohrer wrote:

Text Labels:
Your direct leader is "Your Lord John Smith" or "Your Lady Eve Smith" on mouse-over
Leaders with sub-leaders beneath them become Barons, Counts, Dukes, Kings, Emperors, High Emperors, and Supreme Emperors, depending on how many tiers are beneath them.

Last edited by jcwilk (2019-12-13 06:21:31)

DestinyCall · 2019-12-13 07:04:08

Sopbucket wrote:

So, one thing is still not clear to me. If I'm a lone traveler, and I walk into a town with a pre-established hierarchy that goes all the way up to King, and I choose to follow that King directly, does that make me a Duke? If so, then I forsee this being a problem - most people are going to want to be as highly ranked as they can in society, which is going to make it harder to keep multiple tiers in an organization and the robustness that comes with it. Also, when a Duke dies, do all of their immediate followers become Dukes suddenly? That's not how titles are supposed work.

Your rank is determined by the highest rank beneath you. If a lord decides to follow you, then you become a baron. If a baron decides to follow you, then your rank rises to count. If someone is a king, that just means that at least one duke is following him. If your followers leave you, your rank will drop accordingly. Basically, you are only as strong as your following. You don't gain any direct advantage from following someone of a very high rank, other than being part of their pool of active followers. To move up the ranks, you must gain followers of your own.

...

So when you stroll into a new town, immediately ask the king to follow YOU. Then you will become an emperor!

StrongForce · 2019-12-13 08:14:39

jasonrohrer wrote:

Everyone currently sees all badges and titles for all trees. So you can know who the other guy's King is, because he is decorated. You don't see him as YOUR KING JAMES, just KING JAMES, and his badge is a different color from yours, but you still see his chevrons. You can also see all of King Jame's followers without following him.

Batches are on the chest of a player?
Or are they on clothing item?

Exiled and dubiouse is on the chest if I understand right

DestinyCall · 2019-12-13 09:06:54

jasonrohrer wrote:

[*]Badges are visible only when you're wearing a tunic (body clothing).[/*]

The exile has an X instead of a badge color. when wearing a tunic I believe exile/dubious status is also visible on mouse-over, if you are in the correct hierarchy.

So you would want to wear a tunic to advertise your high social status, but might avoid wearing a tunic if you want to make your exile status less visible.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-12-13 09:10:09)

StrongForce · 2019-12-13 09:42:56

Ok so you don't know wich king a count belongs to
Unless he wears a tunic.

Unless he is your count (your)
Or a count to your king but not in your chain(ally)

Last edited by StrongForce (2019-12-13 09:44:06)

Gogo · 2019-12-13 12:02:17

So if there's a griefer, and he/she won't follow anyone and screw up with something, he/she won't be exiled. So everyone won't be suspicious about that person...

OR after a while anyone outside the hierarchy will be seen as a threat?

OR they will just give up their clothes pretending to be a person that cares about kids to be warm.

Why no marks on naked characters? How about a paint?

Last edited by Gogo (2019-12-13 12:02:52)

jcwilk · 2019-12-13 12:16:18

Gogo wrote:

So if there's a griefer, and he/she won't follow anyone and screw up with something, he/she won't be exiled. So everyone won't be suspicious about that person...
OR after a while anyone outside the hierarchy will be seen as a threat?
OR they will just give up their clothes pretending to be a person that cares about kids to be warm.
Why no marks on naked characters? How about a paint?

I think if the griefer got exiled everyone following the exiler would see that the griefer is exiled, although i think the griefer might not know... And I think since the griefer wouldn't be wearing a tunic it would have to be mouseover'd by any follower of the exiler to see the exile. I suspect jason will implement -some- way for the griefer to know they've been exiled, maybe a sound... something like that probably. do you hear the curse sound if someone curses you from far away? or oh right i think you have to be near to curse right? maybe it'll work like that

StrongForce · 2019-12-13 15:38:22

I'm pretty sure he will know soon
As everyone gonna dislike him or even pose him

The_Anabaptist · 2019-12-13 16:43:25

I eagerly await the rule of my king/queen, err scratch that, my murderhobo liege lord...

The_Anabaptist

DestinyCall · 2019-12-13 17:18:06

As long as my king wears a turkey hat, I will follow him as the one true king.

Anyone else is just a poser and must be brought down immediately.

Grim_Arbiter · 2019-12-13 17:42:40

DestinyCall wrote:

As long as my king wears a turkey hat, I will follow him as the one true king.
Anyone else is just a poser and must be brought down immediately.

I mean he IS head Turkey

jasonrohrer · 2019-12-14 00:03:20

Currently, as I have implemented it, you must be wearing chest clothing for your badge or exile status to be visible.

Hard to pin a badge to bear skin.

And the X could be on bare skin, but then it's like a tattoo or something? Maybe I will add this if it becomes a big enough problem. Yeah... I guess I really need to do this now. So the X on an exiled person shows always, even if they are naked.... okay, hmm...

I was thinking that it could just be the case that nakeds can't be trusted so much, and griefers would run around naked to avoid detection, which would be cool.

But I also want to give this system the best chance of actually working and being valuable to people, so.

And yes, you all are correct: following the king directly won't make you a Duke if you have no followers yourself.

And I did implement DUBIOUS status (where someone is still following a leader who has been exiled by someone you trust.... they know their leader is exiled, but they haven't jumped ship).

And I did implement downwards redemption, where a higher leader can undo the exiles of a lower leader. If your higher leader keeps messing you up by doing this, then you can stop following him, right?

But there is currently no notification when you are exiled by someone. If they are your leader, you will see yourself as exiled (or dubious, if your leader is exiled). But if they are not your leader, you won't know. This is fine, I think, because the exile operation is so cheap to perform. Any idiot can exile you at any time, and you won't really care. No reason to bother you with that information. And if you're exiled by the King, you'll figure that out soon enough.

That is why it's so important that higher leaders can redeem you. If someone in your chain of command exiles you, you won't know who did it. But if you go to the top and make your case, you can be redeemed.

The other way is to go follow each leader up the chain of command in turn. Once you get "over the head" of the guy who exiled you, you will stop seeing yourself as exiled.

antking:]# · 2019-12-14 00:09:02

Do people who aren't being followed by anyone get a Badge?

Last edited by antking:]# (2019-12-14 00:11:25)

DestinyCall · 2019-12-14 00:19:40

antking:]# wrote:

Do people who aren't being followed by anyone get a Badge?

"Badges? We ain't got no badges! We don't need no badges! I don't have to show you any stinking badges!"

jasonrohrer · 2019-12-14 00:40:57

Yes, there is a basic badge that you get when you follow someone, showing that you have the same color that your leader does.

The leaders further up the tree have more elaborate badges showing their rank.

But if you follow no one, you have no badge at all.

jcwilk · 2019-12-14 00:51:48

jasonrohrer wrote:

Currently, as I have implemented it, you must be wearing chest clothing for your badge or exile status to be visible.
Hard to pin a badge to bear skin.
And the X could be on bare skin, but then it's like a tattoo or something? Maybe I will add this if it becomes a big enough problem. Yeah... I guess I really need to do this now. So the X on an exiled person shows always, even if they are naked.... okay, hmm...
I was thinking that it could just be the case that nakeds can't be trusted so much, and griefers would run around naked to avoid detection, which would be cool.
But I also want to give this system the best chance of actually working and being valuable to people, so.

And yes, you all are correct: following the king directly won't make you a Duke if you have no followers yourself.

And I did implement DUBIOUS status (where someone is still following a leader who has been exiled by someone you trust.... they know their leader is exiled, but they haven't jumped ship).
And I did implement downwards redemption, where a higher leader can undo the exiles of a lower leader. If your higher leader keeps messing you up by doing this, then you can stop following him, right?
But there is currently no notification when you are exiled by someone. If they are your leader, you will see yourself as exiled (or dubious, if your leader is exiled). But if they are not your leader, you won't know. This is fine, I think, because the exile operation is so cheap to perform. Any idiot can exile you at any time, and you won't really care. No reason to bother you with that information. And if you're exiled by the King, you'll figure that out soon enough.
That is why it's so important that higher leaders can redeem you. If someone in your chain of command exiles you, you won't know who did it. But if you go to the top and make your case, you can be redeemed.
The other way is to go follow each leader up the chain of command in turn. Once you get "over the head" of the guy who exiled you, you will stop seeing yourself as exiled.

What happens if your duke exiles you and then his king redeems you, but then the duke exiles you again? Does it override the king's redemption? What's to stop a duke from exiling you over and over if the king can't tell who's doing it aside from some of his subjects saying that someone is doing it?

Also isn't it rather inefficient that he can't see that you've been exiled by one of his lieutenants and one of the lieutenant's subjects has to point it out? Seems like a lot of running around and fussing over and over without any ability to see who's exiled who aside from indirectly. Declaration of exile should be a very nonsecret process right?

DestinyCall · 2019-12-14 01:10:01

I think the more important question is why would you mess around with exiling someone multiple times when you could just kill them and get rid of the problem immediately?

Exiling a griefer seems like the slowest and least efficient way to get rid of them. And if you hate them enough to exile them, why stop there? Finish the job.

jcwilk · 2019-12-14 01:13:54

DestinyCall wrote:

I think the more important question is why would you mess around with exiling someone multiple times when you could just kill them and get rid of the problem immediately?
Exiling a griefer seems like the slowest and least efficient way to get rid of them. And if you hate them enough to exile them, why stop there? Finish the job.

Subverting the exiling system and dumping buckets of noise in to drown out the signal means that your town loses faith in its accuracy and it can't be used against you.

Also just as a general zero effort zero risk way of fucking with people

jasonrohrer · 2019-12-14 01:17:54

Yes, a duke could keep overriding the king's redemption. I suppose that at that point, the king would exile the duke. Of course, the duke can exile someone repeatedly in secret, and then folks would have to ferret out what's going on.

We'll see how it shakes out. I'm guessing that people who have a lot of followers won't do too much messing around. They have followers for a reason. And other people will do a LOT of messing around, but it doesn't matter, because they have no followers. They can pretend to exile people and do whatever hi-jinx, but it doesn't need to be thrown in anyone's face. You don't need to be notified when it happens, right?

And especially since you can't control who follows you, you really don't want to be bothered with the goings-on of those beneath you. Let them sort it out, mostly, unless a case bubbles up that needs your attention. So you don't really care who your followers are banning. Your followers could be anyone, right? Some rogue duke comes and follows you, and now you need to get notifications about who he's exiling?

In general, the problem is that there's a lot of information and no room to show it.

For example, it might already say:

YOUR EXILED LORD MATTHEW SMITH - YOUR UNCLE

If we need to put the exiler in there too? Yikes.

YOUR EXILED LORD MATTHEW SMITH - YOUR UNCLE - EXILED BY KING JOHN SMITH

And don't forget that people can be exiled by more than one person. Your whole chain of command (above you) might agree. Or an entire tier beneath you (all the dukes) might agree too. We can't display that information on mouse-over.

The power of a hierarchy comes from the logarithmic scaling. You only need to worry about what's going on in your little section of the tree.

jasonrohrer · 2019-12-14 01:22:02

JC, if you are messing with people like that, only your followers hear the noise.

At that point, they'd probably lose faith in YOU, right?

All they have to do is stop following you and the noisy line is snipped.

How did you get these followers in the first place? You didn't gain them by being a noisy idiot.

Wouldn't it be funny if the president of the US got on national TV and mooned everyone? That would be the best prank ever!

But that doesn't happen because it takes enormous effort to get yourself in that position, and the position is to valuable to just throw it away for the sake of a gag.

In OHOL, if you are in the position to annoy lots of people with your power, that powerful position was hard-won.

jasonrohrer · 2019-12-14 01:22:46

Also, the black X of Exile shows up on your bare skin if you aren't wearing chest clothing.

But your badge only shows up if you're wearing chest clothing.

jcwilk · 2019-12-14 01:27:18

jasonrohrer wrote:

JC, if you are messing with people like that, only your followers hear the noise.
At that point, they'd probably lose faith in YOU, right?
All they have to do is stop following you and the noisy line is snipped.
How did you get these followers in the first place? You didn't gain them by being a noisy idiot.

Wouldn't it be funny if the president of the US got on national TV and mooned everyone? That would be the best prank ever!
But that doesn't happen because it takes enormous effort to get yourself in that position, and the position is to valuable to just throw it away for the sake of a gag.

In OHOL, if you are in the position to annoy lots of people with your power, that powerful position was hard-won.

This is only valid if the followers are able to figure out who did it. If there's a chain of 6 people above them then good luck figuring that out even if you spend much of your life trying to sort out a single exile. If there's one or two tiers then yeah sure.

Does it at least have similar behavior to cursing, like that you need to be nearby (is this a restriction on cursing or am i making it up) and it shows up with color when you say it and all that? If so, then it should be very difficult to secretly exile.

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#76 2019-12-13 00:30:24

Re: Coming soon: voluntary leadership

#77 2019-12-13 00:39:09

Re: Coming soon: voluntary leadership

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