Idea for a leadership ability: Orders

DarkDrak · 2019-12-14 16:09:33

Kinrany wrote:

With two people. They can follow each other in turns, this won't even break the tree.
A radio can still be better. Like tunics: same thing as hovering the mouse over the character, just more streamlined. But I guess they might need to be cheaper to be a viable strategy? I don't know if people are using radios to talk to other towns right now.

Demn, that's even more broken than what i thought.

And no, radio has hardly ever been used as intended. As far as i can recall we had like...5? successful inter-town cummunication in the last half a year, since the Bee and Blondin times (never bothered with radios before then). Normally a radio gets made in belltown and just..... sits there, working as a translator at best. Other towns normally die out before reaching a radio or get abbandoned shortly after.

Gogo · 2019-12-14 16:14:59

The leader should have time limitations for dinging. Like 5 messages for every 5 minutes.

Also maybe different colour of speech bubble for leaders?

BTW right now leadership is being used for forming mafia gangs.

Kinrany · 2019-12-14 17:10:00

Crazy idea: use emoji in combination with names as custom markers.

Now, even the forums don't support emoji, and you obviously can't use emoji in the game, BUT THAT'S JUST DETAILS ok ok

To exile someone, the king just posts an order: " TIMMY".
And then everyone who follows the king sees the same emoji over TIMMY's head.

And you'd be able to use this in regular speech. Use a blue arrow emoji to point at someone, etc. In this case everyone who hears you, sees the marker.

And notes, and maps. The note could mention some object on the map. Though I'm not exactly sure how we could possibly name objects.

Joseph Stalin · 2019-12-14 17:38:47

i like

jasonrohrer · 2019-12-14 17:51:12

Yeah, you're right about hacking this for 2-way radio by switching leaders back and forth. Thanks for noticing that.

And long-distance communication of any kind doesn't make sense either. I do want radio to be an out-of-reach someday tech for communicating with outposts.

Regarding being unable to escape from your mother's leader's messages as a baby, why did your mother have that leader if he was so annoying? Unless he was waiting to unleash his lunacy on YOU, the moment you were born. But yeah, I guess there would have to be some kind of baby unfollow if messages were unlimited.

Okay, so what about a more word-of-mouthy system?

Forget two types of orders. Say there's only one, and it gets passed down the tree whenever possible, but ONLY passed to direct followers.

King issues ORDER, ALL FARMERS REPORT TO TOWN CENTER

Whatever Dukes are near the King get this order and see it right away. Then they hold the order in their order slot, server-side. When they run into one of THEIR follows, that follower gets the order, holds it, and passes it on to their own followers.

Maybe it will piggy-back speech, so you have to run into someone and talk to them, or maybe just being within some distance of them will trigger it. You follow them? Do they have a pending order? Do you have that order? If not, then take the order, display it, and hold it for your followers.

For this to work in a sensible way, there can be only one order in each person's holding-slot at a time. It either came down from above, or you issued it yourself. And issuing your own order would override the order from above for whichever followers haven't heard it yet.

Now, if you're a baby with a bad leader who is mouthy, you could potentially distance yourself from them so as not to hear the gibberish. Or there really needs to be an unfollow command for babies.

Punkypal · 2019-12-14 18:36:38

Did anyone even see my message board suggestion? Not one comment. It would allow bigger orders to be issued but fast and direct communication would still require regular talking.

Do y'all think nobody would ever look at a message board? IDK. People sure don't seem to be able to resist the urge to pick up every map they see lying around.

Kinrany · 2019-12-14 18:45:53

jasonrohrer wrote:

Regarding being unable to escape from your mother's leader's messages as a baby, why did your mother have that leader if he was so annoying? Unless he was waiting to unleash his lunacy on YOU, the moment you were born. But yeah, I guess there would have to be some kind of baby unfollow if messages were unlimited.

TBH I still think it's fine for everyone to follow their mother by default. Making every grandma a Countess is only a problem of adding more titles, like Elder. And titles will not have the same meaning anyway.

That's pretty much how it works IRL: children are supposed to obey their parents for a long time, even when parents are downright crazy. This is a game about parenting, after all! At least in the game you are ready to walk away from the crazy family at 3, not 15.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Maybe it will piggy-back speech, so you have to run into someone and talk to them, or maybe just being within some distance of them will trigger it. You follow them? Do they have a pending order? Do you have that order? If not, then take the order, display it, and hold it for your followers.
For this to work in a sensible way, there can be only one order in each person's holding-slot at a time. It either came down from above, or you issued it yourself. And issuing your own order would override the order from above for whichever followers haven't heard it yet.

It could be reframed to be a bit more general.
Suppose that every person at any time has a thought they keep thinking about. They also mention that whenever they talk to anyone.

You don't want to actually repeat the same thing all the time, so the game can automate this process:

You can read someone's main thought on mouse-over. As if you were paying attention.
They say the thought aloud every time they meet a follower who didn't hear that thought before.
And yes, the follower replaces his own main thought with his leader's thought.

Wuatduhf · 2019-12-14 18:51:48

I believe that the word-of-mouth alternative is a good one, but the Orders idea should be able to piggy-back off of the AM Transmitter functionality.

If a Leader issues an order while next to any-frequency AM Transmitter, the Order is also broadcast to their followers a certain distance away.

Extra: The type of Transmitter could determine the range at which the message is extended. High/Medium/Low Frequency transmit at a distance of 1k/2k/4k from the source.

DarkDrak · 2019-12-14 18:58:08

jasonrohrer wrote:

Yeah, you're right about hacking this for 2-way radio by switching leaders back and forth. Thanks for noticing that.
And long-distance communication of any kind doesn't make sense either. I do want radio to be an out-of-reach someday tech for communicating with outposts.

Ok, im relieved to hear that.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Okay, so what about a more word-of-mouthy system?
Forget two types of orders. Say there's only one, and it gets passed down the tree whenever possible, but ONLY passed to direct followers.
King issues ORDER, ALL FARMERS REPORT TO TOWN CENTER
Whatever Dukes are near the King get this order and see it right away. Then they hold the order in their order slot, server-side. When they run into one of THEIR follows, that follower gets the order, holds it, and passes it on to their own followers.
Maybe it will piggy-back speech, so you have to run into someone and talk to them, or maybe just being within some distance of them will trigger it. You follow them? Do they have a pending order? Do you have that order? If not, then take the order, display it, and hold it for your followers.
For this to work in a sensible way, there can be only one order in each person's holding-slot at a time. It either came down from above, or you issued it yourself. And issuing your own order would override the order from above for whichever followers haven't heard it yet.

I got a few questions.
- What's the effective distance at which the order can be trasmitted? 'Cause if it's too small, then there's effectively no difference between "issuing an order" and "just running around the town spamming text".
- Is the trasmission of an order automated? Like, when you issue it as a king, the dukes with a free order slot will automatically issue it aswell? Or do they receive the order messege and have to repeat the command? In first case there's a problem with every order automatically being heard by everyone, thus no way to just hold a private council with dukes; in second case we might have dukes forgetting to relay the order forward or not knowing how to.
- How long does the order occupy the order slot? We could run into stuff like " a Baron goes off on a horsecart to get water from a distant well and when he gets back he's met with an order to meet for a council, but the council has already been held 10 mins ago" and problems with issuing new orders if dukes have the slot occupied by the last one (or do new order by the king override their slot forcefully?)

Overall +1. If the distance is limited, then it would be pretty useful without being broken.

Gogo · 2019-12-14 19:07:59

Orders seen in town only would be nice. Distance similar to !. I played a little with new update and the followers just stay in one place causing confusion and mass killing, and vote for all their lives. They are armed, but not organized at all.

Last edited by Gogo (2019-12-14 19:08:35)

jcwilk · 2019-12-14 19:23:59

jasonrohrer wrote:

Yeah, you're right about hacking this for 2-way radio by switching leaders back and forth. Thanks for noticing that.
And long-distance communication of any kind doesn't make sense either. I do want radio to be an out-of-reach someday tech for communicating with outposts.
Regarding being unable to escape from your mother's leader's messages as a baby, why did your mother have that leader if he was so annoying? Unless he was waiting to unleash his lunacy on YOU, the moment you were born. But yeah, I guess there would have to be some kind of baby unfollow if messages were unlimited.

Okay, so what about a more word-of-mouthy system?
Forget two types of orders. Say there's only one, and it gets passed down the tree whenever possible, but ONLY passed to direct followers.
King issues ORDER, ALL FARMERS REPORT TO TOWN CENTER
Whatever Dukes are near the King get this order and see it right away. Then they hold the order in their order slot, server-side. When they run into one of THEIR follows, that follower gets the order, holds it, and passes it on to their own followers.
Maybe it will piggy-back speech, so you have to run into someone and talk to them, or maybe just being within some distance of them will trigger it. You follow them? Do they have a pending order? Do you have that order? If not, then take the order, display it, and hold it for your followers.
For this to work in a sensible way, there can be only one order in each person's holding-slot at a time. It either came down from above, or you issued it yourself. And issuing your own order would override the order from above for whichever followers haven't heard it yet.

Now, if you're a baby with a bad leader who is mouthy, you could potentially distance yourself from them so as not to hear the gibberish. Or there really needs to be an unfollow command for babies.

Edit: misread the earlier messages, yeah its broken with at least 4 very carefully coordinated people.

Okay well how about at least having the person to person jump be bigger than the screen, like say 100m or whatever whistling distance is

Last edited by jcwilk (2019-12-14 19:32:38)

jasonrohrer · 2019-12-14 19:29:09

Distance can be whatever makes sense. Maybe 10 tiles, which is a screen wide in vanilla.

No, you wouldn't repeat the command to pass the order. Would be automatic. And each new order would replace the last one. So if a king were to spam orders, most of them wouldn't get through to everyone, because there wouldn't be enough time to mingle between orders.

Punky, I did read the message board idea.... my thoughts are:

1. I don't necessarily want to have to put an new object in the game to enable this functionality. People would need to build it, and special code would need to work with that object (what we're suggesting here is speech-based).

2. I'm looking to make it as convenient as possible. Thematically, a message board is nice, but everyone has to go look at it repeatedly to keep up with the latest orders. There are already enough hurdles to coordination in the game. I want this to "just work" most of the time, within reason, without any extra effort on the part of players to get the latest order.

Kinrany, I did consider something like your THOUGHT version of the idea, where everyone is just forced to repeat the order as their own speech when they get around a follower who doesn't have the order yet. KING'S ORDER: ALL FARMERS REPORT TO THE TOWN CENTER.

However, I worry that it will be even more "noisy" than DING messages... a bunch of people repeating the same thing over and over? Yikes. Every time a new person walks into town, the message repeats, but everyone has to see it repeat again. The DING messages are shown to each person once only.

Wuatduhf · 2019-12-14 19:30:26

Gogo wrote:

Orders seen in town only would be nice. Distance similar to !. I played a little with new update and the followers just stay in one place causing confusion and mass killing, and vote for all their lives. They are armed, but not organized at all.

Measuring what the Hierarchy system is like on initial-release is not going to be an accurate picture. You're gonna have to wait 1-2 weeks before you'll actually see how Hierarchies gets used when it's not "The brand new thing".

arkajalka · 2019-12-14 19:36:50

yap the global radius would be somewhat gamebreaking. Maybe if there is a way to limit the message to few hundred tiles from the leader it would serve its purpose better without totally breaing the game.

jcwilk · 2019-12-14 19:37:04

jasonrohrer wrote:

Distance can be whatever makes sense. Maybe 10 tiles, which is a screen wide in vanilla.

I run vanilla for the challenge but in a town with more than a building or two orders would get lost for sure if you limited it to screen distance. What's the benefit of that? Just do whistling distance. Time is way sped up so it still thematically works, the process of running around in a circle like a chicken to all the houses just happened so quickly we didn't see it

DarkDrak · 2019-12-14 19:37:10

Punkypal wrote:

There should be a "message board" that can be built by players. When there are new messages a player hasn't seen it indicates that somehow visually. You would have to go check it and see what is being "ordered". It would display one message from each person above you.
Do y'all think nobody would ever look at a message board? IDK. People sure don't seem to be able to resist the urge to pick up every map they see lying around.

Personally, I cant help but to see it as anything else but a slotbox, filled with written papers. People would check it once in their lifetime and that's it. People can't even trust if the information written there is up to date or from several generations ago...

DarkDrak · 2019-12-14 20:07:09

jasonrohrer wrote:

Distance can be whatever makes sense. Maybe 10 tiles, which is a screen wide in vanilla.
No, you wouldn't repeat the command to pass the order. Would be automatic. And each new order would replace the last one. So if a king were to spam orders, most of them wouldn't get through to everyone, because there wouldn't be enough time to mingle between orders.

I can see that having the distance set to not be so big would also solve the spamming of orders problem... But if the whole point of issuing orders is to facilitate communication as opposed to just running around and shouting, imo 20-30 tiles would make more sense. And perhaps add a cooldown to prevent spamm.

There are cases where you want to alert the whole town (about a greifer or a supply shortage) and times when you just want to connect only the most trusted town members (decide on a new leader, communicate the location of hidden bow and arrows or food supplies). Wouldnt it make more sense to have two kind of orders, a public and a private one? For example, with the public one being transmitted automatically and the private one - no.

jasonrohrer · 2019-12-14 20:08:33

Yeah, JC, I'd mess with the distance until it felt right.

Point is, orders shouldn't travel instantly everywhere. You should get the message over time, as you mingle with people. If you're out at the outpost, you shouldn't hear the news until you come back to town and see someone who knows the news.

Would also give you a reason to find your leader periodically, just to get the latest order.

eajorstad · 2019-12-14 20:12:04

jasonrohrer wrote:

How many DING messages are you faced with currently?
Tool learning messages and new player messages, but that's it, right?

I still see a lot of ! at the edges of my screen (murder threats), though not as much as it used to be. It may not be an audible alert, but it is still more notifications being thrown at me that I may not truly need..

Kinrany · 2019-12-14 20:24:11

jasonrohrer wrote:

However, I worry that it will be even more "noisy" than DING messages... a bunch of people repeating the same thing over and over? Yikes. Every time a new person walks into town, the message repeats, but everyone has to see it repeat again. The DING messages are shown to each person once only.

I think it would be less of a problem than it looks like, for two reasons:
1. It's very easy to recognize and ignore a line that you've already seen before. The more often it's repeated, the easier.
2. The leaders have full control over this.

It's also beneficial as a reminder, and it gives information to players that don't follow the same leader.

Another problem I see is that it's hard to tell whether something is an original thought or an automatic one.
(But again, same as real life: you don't know if you're being told an original idea. Except on Twitter, where retweets are explicit.)

jasonrohrer wrote:

Point is, orders shouldn't travel instantly everywhere. You should get the message over time, as you mingle with people. If you're out at the outpost, you shouldn't hear the news until you come back to town and see someone who knows the news.

If orders are sticky, the sticky note can be greyed out whenever the leader is too far.

DestinyCall · 2019-12-14 20:26:56

DarkDrak wrote:

Punkypal wrote:
There should be a "message board" that can be built by players. When there are new messages a player hasn't seen it indicates that somehow visually. You would have to go check it and see what is being "ordered". It would display one message from each person above you.
Do y'all think nobody would ever look at a message board? IDK. People sure don't seem to be able to resist the urge to pick up every map they see lying around.
Personally, I cant help but to see it as anything else but a slotbox, filled with written papers. People would check it once in their lifetime and that's it. People can't even trust if the information written there is up to date or from several generations ago...

Ideally, a noticeboard would include some kind of feature that lets you know if a note is super old. For example, new notes would be visually distinct. Over time, the note would "age" and change color from crisp white to old brown. Perhaps very old notes fall off the board completely.

This would ensure that the noticeboard can only contain relatively recent information.

jasonrohrer · 2019-12-14 21:18:02

Got this working.

Interesting wrinkle is what happens when you're exiled. You are blocked from receiving the message yourself, but it is still passed down to your followers, who hear it as long as they aren't exiled themselves. These followers are seen as dubious.

So you can exile a mid-tier leader without ruining the chain of command. The lower-downs will still get the King's messages, and hopefully jump ship so they can stop being dubious.

I also realized this could be used to bypass the language barrier. I'm making sure that it doesn't work that way. You leader's orders will arrive in that leader's language.

Gogo · 2019-12-14 21:24:17

We don't need noticeboard. IF we need orders to organize, we can't have things that will delay our organizing (noticebords can be chopped by griefers etc.).

I made a quite nice method for achieving and getting up in hierarchy. But it's not full legal. Maybe I wrote about it later hmm.

Last edited by Gogo (2019-12-14 21:24:56)

Kinrany · 2019-12-14 21:30:50

Gogo wrote:

I made a quite nice method for achieving and getting up in hierarchy. tongue But it's not full legal. Maybe I wrote about it later hmm.

Please do

Sopbucket · 2019-12-14 21:31:31

So, if you're standing right next to the king when he issues the order, you don't hear it until your baron or whatever gets to you? That seems kinda silly.

Would it be better if everyone would get the message within a radius of the issuer, but only immediate followers could spread it within their own radius? I guess one interesting side effect of this is that there would be a reason to follow a king directly, even without followers of your own - you could become his personal messenger.

Last edited by Sopbucket (2019-12-14 21:38:43)

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