Feeding problem when becoming old

Ruben · 2019-12-13 23:18:17

Why is this a thing? I've seen so many new players who don't understand why they can't feed their baby that has JUST spawned beneath them.

It's just frustrating, being the newborn and trying to tell your mother that she cannot feed you the usual way.
Because of this misunderstanding I even got accused of being a griefer by my mother for 'running away' once.

If the feeding threshold would be set to 45 years instead of 40, there would be no such misunderstanding anymore, or at least allow the actual mother to feed her child, regardless of age.
If it's supposed to be a part of some kind of 'difficulty', the feeding threshold should be set way down to, like 30 years, so new players are able to eventually grasp this concept, and not shrug it off as 'another baby griefer'.

jcwilk · 2019-12-13 23:36:54

Or maybe... You can breastfeed if you've had a baby in the last X years or you've breastfed in the past Y years.

Presumably X would be however long it takes for a baby to pick things up (3 years? Can't remember)

Y maybe 1 year?

Purpose of Y is so a mother can continue being a midwife at a nursery.

Would probably need to have some kind of special face on the baby when it begins to feed so the mother can tell if she's still juiced up

Toxolotl · 2019-12-13 23:43:44

Maybe no babies past 37 but milk till 40. Or maybe no babies past 40 and milk till 43.

DestinyCall · 2019-12-14 00:21:26

Toxolotl wrote:

Or maybe no babies past 40 and milk till 43.

Yes, please!

Spoonwood · 2019-12-14 01:59:28

I definitely remember experiencing this problem (though not in the same way).

Age isn't enough. No one knows how old they are, when playing Jason's version. Even if they did, the player has to first learn what the age differences mean and that requires looking things up or hearing about it word of mouth.

I would think that women in the real world know if they can breastfeed or not. Searching "women didn't know she could breastfeed" on DuckDuckGo didn't turn up any stories of a woman thinking that she could breastfeed when she couldn't, even though there exist stories of women not knowing that they were pregnant. It baffles me to think about someone not knowing if she can breastfeed or not, because who doesn't know if oneself can urinate or not?

I would expect that in the future women would know whether a fluid on a prominent body part can discharge from their body or not. No teaching necessary.

One idea: women could have two words to indicate whether they can breastfeed or not. "Nurse" perhaps in green. "Dry" perhaps in red. Or "milk" and "no milk".

Another idea: A circle next to the word 'nurse' which gets filled in green when a female can nurse or is white when she can't. Or I guess white if she can breastfeed since breastmilk looks white, and black when she can't.

Melea · 2019-12-14 11:31:27

Spoonwood wrote:

I would think that women in the real world know if they can breastfeed or not. Searching "women didn't know she could breastfeed" on DuckDuckGo didn't turn up any stories of a woman thinking that she could breastfeed when she couldn't, even though there exist stories of women not knowing that they were pregnant. It baffles me to think about someone not knowing if she can breastfeed or not, because who doesn't know if oneself can urinate or not?

There's HUGE differences between urine that's voluntarily pissed out where you can see and feel the quantity being released, and a baby (hopefully) suckling enough milk from a teat! Breasts don't always leak when lactating, unless you use a pump or manually express you can't see the amount (if any!) of milk you're producing, and mothers producing insufficient milk without being aware is certainly a thing.

Usually lactation is plenty to meet the needs of the child, but for some women it isn't. And the only obvious signs over time is a fussy baby that's failing to grow and thrive as it should. And if left like that without supplementing the child with formula or another source of milk the baby could very well starve. Edit: Or if milk supply was drastically lacking, death would be much quicker by dehydration instead of starvation.

If it was simple to tell, you wouldn't have lists like this all over for how to tell if your baby is getting enough milk or not:

https://americanpregnancy.org/breastfee … lk-supply/

https://www.thewomens.org.au/health-inf … ilk-supply

Last edited by Melea (2019-12-14 11:33:24)

Spoonwood · 2019-12-14 12:27:43

Melea wrote:

If it was simple to tell, you wouldn't have lists like this all over for how to tell if your baby is getting enough milk or not

Both articles concern low milk supply, which concerns whether the baby gets enough milk for the babies needs. They deal with the question "does she produce enough milk?"

My guess concerns whether women know if they can breastfeed *at all*. Whether they can feed a single drop of milk to a baby or not. That deals with the question "does she produce any milk at all?"

Do you comprehend the difference?

I don't doubt at all that the first question is not simple to answer accurately.

But, it seems rather different than what I talked about. I do think that women can have a very difficult time knowing whether their baby gets sufficient milk from breastfeeding. But, I also think it's drastically easier to tell if she can produce a single drop of milk or not.

Knowledge of no milk supply in a woman would imply knowledge of low milk supply in her. But, knowledge of low milk supply in her would not necessarily imply knowledge of no milk supply. I don't think you can come to a conclusion about it not being simple to tell whether or not a woman can breastfeed on the basis of those articles. In general, a case where something is absent is by no means similar to a case where something is present but in low quantityl. And I think you would need the absent case to be similar to the set of low, but present cases for your conditional to hold true. And as a matter of form, one object is of a different type than a set of objects.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-12-14 12:29:38)

Melea · 2019-12-14 12:44:00

In game though, there's no difference between "no milk produced" and "lethally insufficient amount of milk produced". A 39-year-old OHOL mother that accidentally starves her baby by not being able to sufficiently feed it after 40 behaves the same as one with insufficient milk. They THINK they can still successfully breastfeed their child, but cannot and the child ends up dying.

In real life, women can be producing no or practically no milk during attempted breastfeeding, without knowing that breastfeeding isn't working until their baby shows symptoms of dehydration or low weight. OHOL over-age breastfeeding is the same. Without a precise in-game age marker, you may not know your breastfeeding isn't working until the kid starts spamming "F" or just dies.

Last edited by Melea (2019-12-14 12:46:25)

DestinyCall · 2019-12-14 15:53:09

Melea wrote:

In game though, there's no difference between "no milk produced" and "lethally insufficient amount of milk produced". A 39-year-old OHOL mother that accidentally starves her baby by not being able to sufficiently feed it after 40 behaves the same as one with insufficient milk. They THINK they can still successfully breastfeed their child, but cannot and the child ends up dying.
In real life, women can be producing no or practically no milk during attempted breastfeeding, without knowing that breastfeeding isn't working until their baby shows symptoms of dehydration or low weight. OHOL over-age breastfeeding is the same. Without a precise in-game age marker, you may not know your breastfeeding isn't working until the kid starts spamming "F" or just dies.

As long as the kid can reach 3 years old before you run out of milk and he is able to escape your grasp, it doesn't matter if the mom knows the precise moment when she goes dry. The kid can wiggle out of her arms and go grab food, if the mom is dry. The problem presents itself when the mom has a baby, but doesn't realize she has aged out of being a milk producer before the kid is old enough to fend for themself.

That is the current situation and it causes major problems for both mother and child.

Amon · 2019-12-14 16:30:58

Hmm...

Well. Women do not start lactating until they reproduce and have a child to care. This is how it is with most mammals. Humans, however, can entice themselves to start producing milk independently of giving birth. So it's fine for the female characters to cross nurse babies or have wet nurses.

Some study said that if you are overweight, and over 30, you may start having delays in breastmilk production. Not sure there is any source on when a woman stops lactating period, if even. However, some ended up saying that one can lactate well into menopause and after, which is the end-date for fertility. It would make sense for a character to still lactate well into old age then.

The biggest issue is that for most characters, the age difference between young and fertile and oldish is hair colour. for some character's it's super obvious. White blonde, for example.
For others it's not. Ie all the ginger moms and the black haired characters, the differances are absolutely minute. (Lack of luster/oh so slightly gray that blends in with the shading)

Last edited by Amon (2019-12-14 16:32:57)

DestinyCall · 2019-12-14 16:46:08

I have no problem with old ladies not being able to breastfeed, but there's no biological reason why the cut-off has to be EXACTLY forty years old. If that number is super important, than lower the max age for childbirth down to 37 years old. Then you will stop having babies before your milk goes completely dry.

If you aren't using a mod, you might be left for a few minutes thinking you can still have kids when you are actually too old. But I'd rather have that scenario, rather than watch my last kid die in my arms because I didn't notice my hair turning silvery.

Melea · 2019-12-14 16:46:17

Having a kid in OHOL and aging out of feeding them before they're independent is a problem from the player perspective. Although it's really only an issue if there are no other 14-40 females around to wetnurse, or no berries or other foods to feed the child. Eventually newbie mothers will realize a kid saying 'F' in their arms means they aren't producing milk anymore. It'll just take them a few lives. Like them learning to keep an eye on their hunger pips, or learning to wear the dang clothing when available. Too-old-to-breastfeed is part of the learning curve of the game.

And I highly suspect this will never be changed, because it adds "drama" or some such. Like being able to give birth while mortally wounded - Jason has said before that stuff like that is intentional. That sometimes you'll be born in a hopeless situation and starve to death through no fault of your own, or of the mother who is entirely willing but unable to take care of her new kid.

DestinyCall · 2019-12-14 16:47:36

So in other words, you are saying that this is a noob trap?

Melea · 2019-12-14 19:13:42

Kinda? You could call just about any complicated thing in any game a noob trap though. There's always some sort of mechanic that needs learned, where you're gonna mess things up until you learn it (in this case, perhaps unintentionally starving your late-age-birthed kids by not understanding their "I need food and mama's dry" calls of 'F').

I think it'd be awesome if we could nurse until 43 to get rid of the milk-dried-up age gap. I just don't think this will get changed though.

DestinyCall · 2019-12-14 20:39:48

If you think it is a good idea, why do you think it won't be added? As long as we can provide a strong case for why something should be changed, there is always a chance that we will be heard and it will make it into the game eventually.

Silence is real failure, because it means you didn't even try to improve.

Spoonwood · 2019-12-14 21:06:16

Melea wrote:

In game though, there's no difference between "no milk produced" and "lethally insufficient amount of milk produced". A 39-year-old OHOL mother that accidentally starves her baby by not being able to sufficiently feed it after 40 behaves the same as one with insufficient milk.

Your first statement holds, but your second doesn't. A mother in the real world with insufficient milk for your articles still produces milk, at least in some cases. Thus, the baby still gets some nutrition. It's not enough milk, but some, so that it's hard to figure out for mothers, because the baby, I would guess, seems like it's having a bad day or something. At the very least, people gradually becoming unhealthy is more difficult to spot than when they become unhealthy due to an accident.

In OHOL the 40 year old mother doesn't provide a single pip of food to a child. She behaves as if she's a mother with no milk, which implies that she has an insufficient amount of milk. But, an insufficient amount of milk does not imply no milk.

Melea wrote:

Having a kid in OHOL and aging out of feeding them before they're independent is a problem from the player perspective. Although it's really only an issue if there are no other 14-40 females around to wetnurse, or no berries or other foods to feed the child. Eventually newbie mothers will realize a kid saying 'F' in their arms means they aren't producing milk anymore. It'll just take them a few lives. Like them learning to keep an eye on their hunger pips, or learning to wear the dang clothing when available. Too-old-to-breastfeed is part of the learning curve of the game.
And I highly suspect this will never be changed, because it adds "drama" or some such. Like being able to give birth while mortally wounded - Jason has said before that stuff like that is intentional. That sometimes you'll be born in a hopeless situation and starve to death through no fault of your own, or of the mother who is entirely willing but unable to take care of her new kid.

It's still potentially a game of parenting when a mother gives birth mortally wounded, since the mother can still talk (whether or not players actually roleplay parenting during this time is another matter).

If the child dies at 3 because the mother thought she could feed her and couldn't, and it's low population/decline in population hours, or you're playing on a low population server, that may well be the only child or the last child that the mother has who is alive when she is alive.

Lineages don't always die out with the last death being in the latest generation. Here's an example: http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=5632759 The daughter dies before the mother. Thus, the mother no longer could play an actual game of parenting for a few minutes (she could have played the fertility game... but not the parenting game unless she got another child). Were it the case that the mother had birthed the child at say 39, and the child dies when she is 41, and the mother is still alive, and that no other children from the mother are alive, then it is no longer potentially, nor actually a game of parenting for her.

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#1 2019-12-13 23:18:17

Feeding problem when becoming old

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Re: Feeding problem when becoming old

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#4 2019-12-14 00:21:26

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