Coming soon: voluntary leadership

Wuatduhf · 2019-12-14 01:40:49

Very off-topic Jason, but like...before this Update gets pushed to Binary v295, can you squeeze in a hotfix for the Soil til bug? The longer it sticks around the more us "experienced" players are forced to teach the incorrect way to til soil.

TL;DR everyone is forced to til 3-stack piles of soil even outside of Snow biome. Even a temp flip back to the 2-stack piles for all biomes would be kind.

jasonrohrer · 2019-12-14 02:13:44

Can you unpack that Wuat? Seems to be working fine on this end.

I think I did that on purpose.... if you want to farm in the arctic, you need to import a LOT of soil.

There's no reason to till 3-piles otherwise, right? I mean, outside the arctic, why would you do that?

fug · 2019-12-14 02:17:48

jasonrohrer wrote:

Can you unpack that Wuat? Seems to be working fine on this end.
I think I did that on purpose.... if you want to farm in the arctic, you need to import a LOT of soil.
There's no reason to till 3-piles otherwise, right? I mean, outside the arctic, why would you do that?

Because it's three till EVERYWHERE instead of just arctic.

You can only ever do 3 till OR 1 till now instead of the 3 v 2 v 1 method we talked about.

Wuatduhf · 2019-12-14 02:26:35

Yeah, what Tarr said.

Old system used to offer 1, 2, or 3-stack soil piles to be til-able.

Current system, we can Only til 1 and 3-stack, the recipe for 2-stack was removed from all biomes.

Makes sense for the Arctic, yes, no disagreements there. But when this was originally being bug-fixed a while back, the 2-stack tilling transition was accidentally deleted for every biome instead of just Arctic.

Last edited by Wuatduhf (2019-12-14 02:32:13)

jasonrohrer · 2019-12-14 03:00:20

This was intentional:

https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLifeD … dcb6473908

Actually, can make tilled rows on arctic, using full basket of soil (3 soil). This also eliminates a noob trap of using 3 soil instead of 2. The whole point of tilling more soil is when you're rusing farming without a clay bowl. If you can get the 2-pile, that means you have the clay bowl already.

There's a typo in the commit message there, but the idea is still solid.

DestinyCall · 2019-12-14 03:35:30

jasonrohrer wrote:

This was intentional:
https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLifeD … dcb6473908
Actually, can make tilled rows on arctic, using full basket of soil (3 soil). This also eliminates a noob trap of using 3 soil instead of 2. The whole point of tilling more soil is when you're rusing farming without a clay bowl. If you can get the 2-pile, that means you have the clay bowl already.
There's a typo in the commit message there, but the idea is still solid.

Is it supposed to take three soil everywhere or only in arctic?

jasonrohrer · 2019-12-14 04:12:40

Yeah, 3 soil everywhere.

That way, it's not a noob trap to do it with 3 soil when 2 is possible.

DestinyCall · 2019-12-14 04:22:13

That feels broken to me.

Wouldn't a better fix be to keep 2-soil deep rows, but block the creation of deep-tilled rows from the full pile? This prevents inexperienced players from over-tilling and gives two soil piles a purpose. You can't really start farming without a bowl anyways, because you need it to move water around. A bunch of dry rows are useless.

There shouldn't be a situation where you need the fresh row of soil, but you don't need the bowl. All crops require water to grow.

If you want to require three soil for a deep row, then we should at least be able to make a shallow row from a two soil pile. You can make a shallow row with just ONE soil, after all. Why wouldn't you be able to make something out of two soil? Of course, using double soil would be another noob trap, but at least it would be more obvious that you made a mistake since it provides the same output, instead of a new one.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-12-14 04:54:23)

jasonrohrer · 2019-12-14 04:53:35

There's the rabbit pouch path to farming water that requires no pottery.

But it would be a pretty pointless path if tilling a row required pottery too, to scoop soil with a clay bowl. So that's why the 3-soil version was in there.

Granted, it's probably a pretty pointless path as it is, but it's in there.

This ties nicely with the arctic, because I really want farming to be extra hard there, so it takes 3 soil.

The 2 soil till was always kinda wasteful, because you clearly have a bowl, so why not split it? I guess you might be saving iron or skewers...

And there was some implementation issue that made something not work about 2 soil in the arctic.... I don't remember what, exactly. So I figured I might as well simplify the whole thing and make it 3 soil for a deep row with only one till and no clay bowl, AND have this be what it takes in the arctic.

Punkypal · 2019-12-14 05:37:06

I think the extra clicks required to pick up bowl, then grab soil, then dump soil, then, drop bowl, then pick up hoe, then till, then drop hoe, then pick up bowl, then pick up more soil, the dump soil, then drop bowl, then pick up hoe, then till again, just to get to planting is a lot of annoying work.

instead of. Pick up bowl, grab soil, dump soil, grab soil, dump soil, drop bowl, pick up hoe, till soil, DONE.

Yea, I exaggerated a little. A sensible person would assembly line the process to do all of a stage before dropping bowl or hoe, but it's still extra clicks.

And, it wears out the hoe twice as fast too, which is annoying. That part could be balanced by just changing the number of expected uses I suppose.

I don't think players mind that this game is very very clicky. It just gets annoying when something is designed to take 10 clicks when the same thing could be done in 5 clicks. It makes sense for something complex I suppose, but I don't think farming is complex.

----------------------

P.S. - Do shoes really have to be separate? Like, why can't an item just be "pair of shoes". I know wearing one snakeskin boot and one wool bootie is all the fashion rage.....but still. At least can't like-kind shoes stack in a pile of two without having to use a basket?

I know in real life if you don't have a basket at home you have to keep one shoe in your bedroom and the other in the kitchen, but this is a just a game after all. Would anyone miss solving the mystery of, "Why is there one lone wooden clog in the sheep pen?"

EDIT: When you get shot with an arrow or stabbed one of your shoes should fly off and land somewhere up to 5 spaces away like Charlie Brown's shoes do when he gets knocked off the pitcher's mound by a line drive. If the shoe hits someone in the head there should be an audible "boink" sound and they should get a goose egg on their forehead for a minute.

Last edited by Punkypal (2019-12-14 05:46:03)

wondible · 2019-12-14 14:07:08

jasonrohrer wrote:

The 2 soil till was always kinda wasteful, because you clearly have a bowl, so why not split it? I guess you might be saving iron or skewers...

2 soil is what most people did, precisely to save iron, double so with super fragile tillers like stone hoe and skewer. There was some discussion recently that 1 soil was more efficient once you got to oil mines/pumps, but even that doesn't take into account the intense frustration of having your tools break twice as often.

Melea · 2019-12-14 16:56:48

I miss being able to till 2-soil piles SO MUCH. Yes, this game is inherently a click-fest. But having to double-click each damn row to till is annoying. And chews through your hoe usage. It's very irksome when you get unlucky and a freshly made hoe only manages to fully till five spots before breaking.

If we're not in a soil shortage, having the ability to single till 2-soil piles was perfect. You got three crop rows out of every two baskets of soil, saved three hoe charges, and use less clicks. Somehow dumping an extra basket of soil, spreading with bowl, and single-tilling feels much less annoying than spreading out a single basket of soil and then double-hoe-tilling each spot.

Last edited by Melea (2019-12-14 17:00:30)

DestinyCall · 2019-12-14 17:06:22

Why do we even have the shallow row/deep row distinction? It just feels like busy work. So much extra clicking.

It would be better if you only needed to spread out the dirt into single soil piles, then till one time to make a deep row. You are already spending extra time to spread the soil pile into multiple piles. Making it ALSO cost twice as many tool usages (and doubling the number of clicks) just makes the whole process feel especially tedious and unrewarding.

Personally, I felt like two soil piles were the perfect balance. Work a little harder to spread out the soil and find a nice balance between iron consumption and soil conservation. Three soil is a waste of dirt, which is not cheap or fast to produce. One soil is a waste of tools or iron, which are finite and often in limited supply. This change feels like a step backward, forcing more wasted time and inefficiency.

jasonrohrer · 2019-12-14 17:12:40

DestinyCall wrote:

Why do we even have the shallow row/deep row distinction? It just feels like busy work. So much extra clicking.

Because continuing to farm on hardened rows, after farming there previously, requires 1 more soil, but only one tilling instead of two.

Establishing a farm the first time requires double tilling OR extra soil (now 3, was 2).

After that, keeping the farm going in the same spot requires 1 soil and single tilling.

So establishing a farm, or expanding it, requires more resources than maintaining the existing farm.

That makes sense. You're preparing virgin ground for farming. Also, it makes you think twice before expanding. If your existing farm is just barely large enough to feed your peeps, you should stick with that... maybe.

The busy-work you speak of occurs only when expanding your farming.

Regarding the arctic change to 3 soil, it does make sense for this to work the same everywhere. When you use extra soil instead of double-tilling, you're saying, "I'm importing a bunch of soil here, and not using the underlying soil at all." Almost like raised-bed gardening. Obviously, you'd need to do that in the arctic, because the ground is frozen. But that same logic applies elsewhere, so it should work the same elsewhere. And being able to do it with 3 or 2 was a noob trap. And the engine didn't support only allowing it with 2 (and forcing it to 2 only, and blocking 3-soil farming, would have eliminated the non-clay farming path, which I didn't want to do).

Some other side effects.... because shallow tilled rows are blocked from the arctic, you can't re-farm the same area there (once the row hardens, that's it). So you can grow one crop of carrots in a spot, but then that spot is blocked from re-farming. Of course, people were asking to be able to grow trees in the arctic, which don't result in hardened rows. So this is nice, because it makes "annual plant farming," like carrots and tomatoes, impractical in the arctic, as it should be.

DarkDrak · 2019-12-14 17:18:09

jasonrohrer wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
Why do we even have the shallow row/deep row distinction? It just feels like busy work. So much extra clicking.
Because hardened rows require more soil, but only one tilling.
Establishing a farm the first time requires double tilling OR extra soil (now 3, was 2).
After that, keeping the farm going in the same spot requires 1 soil and single tilling.
So establishing a farm, or expanding it, requires more resources than maintaining the existing farm.
That makes sense. You're preparing virgin ground for farming. Also, it makes you think twice before expanding. If your existing farm is just barely large enough to feed your peeps, you should stick with that... maybe.

The busy-work you speak of occurs only when expanding your farming.

Exept for wheat farm and milkweed farm... Just curious, why are those two so soil-wasteful?

jasonrohrer · 2019-12-14 17:27:54

Wheat farming is very hard on the land (IRL). Some crops use more fertility than others, so I'm okay with that thematically.

However the real reason is this: milkweed and wheat are a special case where you're growing the wild crop directly. There is no domestic version. When you pick wild milkweed or harvest wild wheat, it would be weird to leave a hardened row behind, right?

So because you grow the wild version, when you harvest it, it doesn't leave a hardened row behind either.

Making a domestic milkweed, for example, would require duplicating all those bloom stages and transitions. Not terribly hard to do, but I avoid duplicating content where I can.

Since milkweed is not a food, it's not balanced against other foods anyway, so that's okay.

Wheat was originally a food multiplier (for pies), so it was fine that it had out-of-balance soil consumption. Now that it can be eaten directly as bread, things are a little different.

StrongForce · 2019-12-14 17:29:25

It's easy to find out
Keep following higher ups until you stop being exiled.
Then konfront them or report to king

If I understand only folowers see your exiles
If your lord exiles you your king doesn't see you right?

DestinyCall · 2019-12-14 17:55:32

jasonrohrer wrote:

Making a domestic milkweed, for example, would require duplicating all those bloom stages and transitions. Not terribly hard to do, but I avoid duplicating content where I can.

Instead of duplicating the stages of wild milkweed, domestic milkweed could be represented as a row of three milkweed plants, one plant in each stage of life - green, flowering, and fruiting. No cycling. Just a static image of three milkweed plants lined up on a deep row.

When you harvest the milkweed for the first time, you get one piece of thread and remove one plant from the row, leaving behind the other two. Harvesting again provides a second thread and removes another plant. Harvesting a final time gives a third thread, removes the last plant and leaves behind a row that can be clicked to gather milkweed seeds. After a short time, it reverts to a regular shallow row.

This would increase the yield from domestic milkweed and reduce the tedium and frustration of large-scale milkweed farming.

Right now, milkweed is the worst crop. I hate it so much. Being a milkweed farmer is entirely unsatisfying even though it is frequently necessary for the good of the village. Many people would rather ride for fifteen minutes on a horse, searching for wild milkweed, than spend half as much time farming milkweed, because it is just not worth it.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-12-14 18:05:27)

DarkDrak · 2019-12-14 19:02:06

jasonrohrer wrote:

Since milkweed is not a food, it's not balanced against other foods anyway, so that's okay.
Wheat was originally a food multiplier (for pies), so it was fine that it had out-of-balance soil consumption. Now that it can be eaten directly as bread, things are a little different.

Oh ok. I mean, yeah, it makes sense. Stuff created with milkweed lingers indefinetly as opposed to consumable food. And wheat literally produces soil.

MCzerotacos · 2019-12-15 06:16:16

How do you name a person as your heir? Does the one with the most followers become the heir or is the first born daughter/son become the heir by right?

Probably already answered but I dont wanna scroll thrught all the meassges to find the answer. I'm lazy.

jcwilk · 2019-12-15 06:34:37

MCzerotacos wrote:

How do you name a person as your heir? Does the one with the most followers become the heir or is the first born daughter/son become the heir by right?
Probably already answered but I dont wanna scroll thrught all the meassges to find the answer. I'm lazy.

IIRC you have to follow your chosen heir and then on death it transfers all your followers to your leader

jcwilk · 2019-12-15 06:36:22

jcwilk wrote:

MCzerotacos wrote:
How do you name a person as your heir? Does the one with the most followers become the heir or is the first born daughter/son become the heir by right?
Probably already answered but I dont wanna scroll thrught all the meassges to find the answer. I'm lazy.
IIRC you have to follow your chosen heir and then on death it transfers all your followers to your leader

Which means if you don't choose an heir then all the lieutenants beneath the king become separate kings (maybe not kings exactly but top of their respective and newly separate trees)

jcwilk · 2019-12-15 07:32:26

This thread has been a pretty wild ride though. I'm not sure I've ever seen an idea come from a player, get highlighted by a/the dev, have it go through rigorous hole-poking from much of the active forum community, and get released in a pretty tidily designed form only 7 calendar days after the initial idea post.

FulmenTheFinn · 2019-12-15 09:09:35

Nice triple-post @jcwilk. In all seriousness, this forum badly needs multi-quote functionality, and a number of other QoL features that makes replying to multiple posts or points within one reply a hell of a lot easier. Excluding the graphics, you'd think this board was put up in 1995.

boggers · 2019-12-15 09:44:42

Late to the party, have not played OHOL for some time so I'm also out of the loop, but the latest update email caught my attention.

I wanted to throw an idea out there from an old RTS project I worked on. We had a similar setup where each player would choose their leader, and the server would figure out military ranks for everyone. Ranks came with real in game advantages, higher ranks could requisition team resources, and there was a functional chain of command where you would receive strategic commands from the player you followed, and issue commands to your followers.

The biggest difference is that we used a points system that I later found out is very similar to the way google searches used to rank search results, and also how some real-world liquid democracies are set up.

Following a player assigns them 10 points, but it also assign 9 points to whoever they are following and 5 points to whoever that person is following. The points are tallied and the highest score becomes "General" with everyone sorted below that based on their score. Voting for yourself gave you a "mercenary" rank, and where everyone had the exact same score, it was assumed that this was done deliberately by the players, so everyone became "Comrad" with the same powers as a General.

This had a couple of side effects that were good for our setup.
- There could be more than one General in a single hierarchy, or multiple hierarchies in a team.
- It was difficult for an individual or two to game the ranking system, but easy for many people working together.
- Whoever a General followed would either become the new General if they already had another chain of command below them, or be promoted to a high ranking officer who "had the General's ear" in keeping with the hierarchical chain of command, the adviser could issue commands to the General even though they were of lower rank.

Anyway it worked pretty well, so I figured it might be worth sharing. We messed around a lot with the numbers, 10>9>5 was a bit of a sweet spot.

One Hour One Life Forums

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Re: Coming soon: voluntary leadership

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