You are a griefer

Dodge · 2019-12-15 22:06:20

Spoonwood wrote:

Yes, your behavior seemed defensive.
I don't think I'm attacking you. I think I'm typing on my keyboard.

Now that's just being ridiculous, you know exactly that i dont mean in a physical sense, but maybe you did punch your keyboard will writing it

jcwilk · 2019-12-15 22:24:56

Dodge wrote:

jcwilk wrote:
...
Tbf the "PVP" system had a lot of improvements and its much less easy to kill now than before, still not enough though since sometimes when i target some people will just stand there until they get stabbed/shot.
The "GASP" + shock face still feels a little underwhelming imo, you are supposed to fear for your life after all and not be like "oh i'm shocked someone is trying to murder me".

Agree it's better than it used to be.

Yeah I get what you're saying about the gasp thing but it does serve the utility it's supposed to be serving though, at least, even if it's not quite as punchy as it could be. The murder mouth thing feels about right though.

Can you describe what you feel the gasp should better exude? I'm kind of blanking aside from like a throbbing heartbeat or some cheesy horror movie noise (pls no)

Dodge · 2019-12-15 22:49:41

jcwilk wrote:

Dodge wrote:
jcwilk wrote:
...
Tbf the "PVP" system had a lot of improvements and its much less easy to kill now than before, still not enough though since sometimes when i target some people will just stand there until they get stabbed/shot.
The "GASP" + shock face still feels a little underwhelming imo, you are supposed to fear for your life after all and not be like "oh i'm shocked someone is trying to murder me".
Agree it's better than it used to be.
Yeah I get what you're saying about the gasp thing but it does serve the utility it's supposed to be serving though, at least, even if it's not quite as punchy as it could be. The murder mouth thing feels about right though.
Can you describe what you feel the gasp should better exude? I'm kind of blanking aside from like a throbbing heartbeat or some cheesy horror movie noise (pls no)

Yeah the murder mouth feels about right

Good question, throbbing heartbeat is a very interesting idea, especially if you have headphones it would almost feel like it's your own heart beating faster, maybe even a little bit too immersive .

I was thinking some terrified type scream but also maybe some visual effects that gives you a sense that your life is in danger.

Honestly i'm not sure there's a lot of possibilites here, instead of the "!!" when someone targets you it could be an animation with a skull and maybe knives in the style of those old cartoons when someone is trying to kill someone else you see them with an animated type spiky bubble and graphics related to anger/death

Maybe "GASP" could be replaced by "HELP!" but even with this i feel like new players still wouldn't try to run away when targetted, ideally you should really get a sense that your life is in danger and that someone wants you dead and you have to run away ASAP.

But it shouldn't be cheesy either yeah, otherwise you could even imagine an actual animation of blood pulsing from the direction of the killer to the victim but that would be too much.

Gogo · 2019-12-16 00:01:50

Sending me to live alone for some amount of time will surely prevent me from griefing. I don't grief, but sometimes I feel urge for ruin everything just for some primitive fun. So instead of griefing I kill griefers, it's also funny and satisfies my, let's say, primitive lust.

Last edited by Gogo (2019-12-16 00:03:54)

jcwilk · 2019-12-16 00:08:20

I kind of wish that donkeytown still let other griefers spawn as your children (it doesn't right?) so that it made kind of a good place / bad place dynamic. Why not let the players who cause outrage have outrage together? xD

Keyin · 2019-12-16 00:33:32

jcwilk wrote:

I kind of wish that donkeytown still let other griefers spawn as your children (it doesn't right?) so that it made kind of a good place / bad place dynamic. Why not let the players who cause outrage have outrage together? xD

I would enjoy this a lot. I'd rather live with all the edgelords and no whiners than with all the whiners and no edgelords.

fug · 2019-12-16 00:42:14

jcwilk wrote:

I kind of wish that donkeytown still let other griefers spawn as your children (it doesn't right?) so that it made kind of a good place / bad place dynamic. Why not let the players who cause outrage have outrage together? xD

You can still get babies as a donkey it's just rare to have 2/60 people so disliked that their both exiled at the same time. Getting sent to DT in the current version of the curse rework is pretty much reserved for 12 year olds and people with an IQ of a potato.

jcwilk · 2019-12-16 00:44:43

fug wrote:

jcwilk wrote:
I kind of wish that donkeytown still let other griefers spawn as your children (it doesn't right?) so that it made kind of a good place / bad place dynamic. Why not let the players who cause outrage have outrage together? xD
You can still get babies as a donkey it's just rare to have 2/60 people so disliked that their both exiled at the same time. Getting sent to DT in the current version of the curse rework is pretty much reserved for 12 year olds and people with an IQ of a potato.

Oh okay cool, I'll have to experiment with this

Spoonwood · 2019-12-16 01:53:29

Dodge wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
Yes, your behavior seemed defensive.
I don't think I'm attacking you. I think I'm typing on my keyboard.
Now that's just being ridiculous, you know exactly that i dont mean in a physical sense, but maybe you did punch your keyboard will writing it

There is no "I" in a non-physical sense. I don't think it has ever gotten proven that a non-physical sense of "I" exists. And without that, you can't meaningfully speak about some hypothetical non-physical "I" as if had meaning.

Spoonwood · 2019-12-16 01:59:05

jcwilk wrote:

Yeah I get what you're saying about the gasp thing but it does serve the utility it's supposed to be serving though, at least, even if it's not quite as punchy as it could be. The murder mouth thing feels about right though.

Murder mouth is awful. It makes for a too darn enticing of a sound. It has interesting qualities all on its own. This is supposed to be a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building. It's not suppose to be one where murdering for the hell of it becomes attractive, because of an attractive sound.

Spoonwood · 2019-12-16 02:26:49

jcwilk wrote:

And re: "this game isn't about that" - you're kidding yourself if you think that combat is the only solution Jason could think of vs griefers. Play the castle doctrine and tell me Jason doesn't like blood. If he wants to outlaw griefing and start banning people who aren't strictly roleplaying neurotypical family members that would be well within his power, but he doesn't, and he never will, because that approach to player management is boring af.

If this game is about that, then Jason Rohrer should get sued for false advertising, since it clearly says on the website

jasonrohrer wrote:

a multiplayer survival game of parenting
and civilization building

Need I got into another analysis where I break down what that means and that such griefers like you jcwilk are not engaging in a game of multiplayer survival, nor one of parenting, nor civilization building when they are doing that?

CURSE EVE JCWILK

JasonY · 2019-12-16 03:27:04

Dodge wrote:

mouse clicking is such "hard work" poor poor players behind their screen that "worked" so hard... lol
anyway still arguing weither it's possible or not doesn't matter, it's about intent.

I don't know what exactly you wanted to hear. The question was "why wouldn't you kill" and we provided a fair answer.

Accept it or fuck off.

jcwilk · 2019-12-16 06:07:23

Spoonwood wrote:

jcwilk wrote:
And re: "this game isn't about that" - you're kidding yourself if you think that combat is the only solution Jason could think of vs griefers. Play the castle doctrine and tell me Jason doesn't like blood. If he wants to outlaw griefing and start banning people who aren't strictly roleplaying neurotypical family members that would be well within his power, but he doesn't, and he never will, because that approach to player management is boring af.
If this game is about that, then Jason Rohrer should get sued for false advertising, since it clearly says on the website
jasonrohrer wrote:
a multiplayer survival game of parenting
and civilization building
Need I got into another analysis where I break down what that means and that such griefers like you jcwilk are not engaging in a game of multiplayer survival, nor one of parenting, nor civilization building when they are doing that?
CURSE EVE JCWILK

Wow spoon you really have it all figured out. Go sue him for putting war swords, knives, bows, murder mouth, killer tracking in the family tree, exclamation marks, endblocks, the apocalypse, "join"ing, gasping, and whatever other mechanisms I'm forgetting into a game that you're attempting to reduce down to literally be fully encapsulated by a one sentence general summary of theme. Clearly he hasn't put a single minute of effort into making players murdering other players part of the game ya? Wow so observant.

I'm going to name my family jcwilk next time I'm eve just for you and feed them to bears, then tell them they'll be fine because this game is about civilization building and parenting not killing as they're bleeding out and panicking

Last edited by jcwilk (2019-12-16 06:08:25)

Hoax · 2019-12-16 06:44:31

Spoonwood wrote:

jcwilk wrote:
And re: "this game isn't about that" - you're kidding yourself if you think that combat is the only solution Jason could think of vs griefers. Play the castle doctrine and tell me Jason doesn't like blood. If he wants to outlaw griefing and start banning people who aren't strictly roleplaying neurotypical family members that would be well within his power, but he doesn't, and he never will, because that approach to player management is boring af.
If this game is about that, then Jason Rohrer should get sued for false advertising, since it clearly says on the website
jasonrohrer wrote:
a multiplayer survival game of parenting
and civilization building

Question, do you know what "false advertising" is?

Spoonwood · 2019-12-16 07:02:58

For the record I have made no such assertion that OHOL is about that.

jcwilk wrote:

I'm going to name my family jcwilk next time I'm eve just for you and feed them to bears, then tell them they'll be fine because this game is about civilization building and parenting not killing as they're bleeding out and panicking

Since those are other people and probably new players doing such would not be all that unlikely to drive away other players. It would not be unlikely to result in decreased customer retention. You never know, some of those people might ask for refunds. It may well result in decreased future sales also, since poor player retention probably corresponds with a lack of people talking about the game.

But, I really don't get it. Since you've asserted that the game is about such griefing, well from it's foundations since you said you would do so as Eve, instead of what it advertises itself as, why are you tolerating what the website says the game is about? Are you some sort of coward who can't insist that a man be honest?

Spoonwood · 2019-12-16 07:11:08

Hoax wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
jcwilk wrote:
And re: "this game isn't about that" - you're kidding yourself if you think that combat is the only solution Jason could think of vs griefers. Play the castle doctrine and tell me Jason doesn't like blood. If he wants to outlaw griefing and start banning people who aren't strictly roleplaying neurotypical family members that would be well within his power, but he doesn't, and he never will, because that approach to player management is boring af.
If this game is about that, then Jason Rohrer should get sued for false advertising, since it clearly says on the website
jasonrohrer wrote:
a multiplayer survival game of parenting
and civilization building
Question, do you know what "false advertising" is?

This might be the relevant law code:

"It is unlawful for any person, firm, corporation or association, or any employee thereof with intent directly or indirectly to dispose of real or personal property or to perform services, professional or otherwise, or anything of any nature whatsoever or to induce the public to enter into any obligation relating thereto, to make or disseminate or cause to be made or disseminated before the public in this state, or to make or disseminate or cause to be made or disseminated from this state before the public in any state, in any newspaper or other publication, or any advertising device, or by public outcry or proclamation, or in any other manner or means whatever, including over the Internet, any statement, concerning that real or personal property or those services, professional or otherwise, or concerning any circumstance or matter of fact connected with the proposed performance or disposition thereof, which is untrue or misleading, and which is known, or which by the exercise of reasonable care should be known, to be untrue or misleading, or for any person, firm, or corporation to so make or disseminate or cause to be so made or disseminated any such statement as part of a plan or scheme with the intent not to sell that personal property or those services, professional or otherwise, so advertised at the price stated therein, or as so advertised. Any violation of the provisions of this section is a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding six months, or by a fine not exceeding two thousand five hundred dollars ($2,500), or by both that imprisonment and fine."

https://law.onecle.com/california/business/17500.html

I'll note that false advertising does include services.

Dodge · 2019-12-16 07:46:53

Spoonwood wrote:

Dodge wrote:
Spoonwood wrote:
Yes, your behavior seemed defensive.
I don't think I'm attacking you. I think I'm typing on my keyboard.
Now that's just being ridiculous, you know exactly that i dont mean in a physical sense, but maybe you did punch your keyboard will writing it
There is no "I" in a non-physical sense. I don't think it has ever gotten proven that a non-physical sense of "I" exists. And without that, you can't meaningfully speak about some hypothetical non-physical "I" as if had meaning.

Let me put this in an other way.

Spoonwood you are absolute trash

See?

Did i physically attack you?

No

Now stop being ridiculous trying to argue about ridiculous things, sometimes i'ts like you are arguing comon sense itself.

jcwilk · 2019-12-16 07:55:16

Oh my god... He actually looked up a definition of false advertising and decided it would be helpful to copy and paste. I'm going to slowly back away from the keyboard now

Dodge · 2019-12-16 08:23:37

JasonY wrote:

Dodge wrote:
mouse clicking is such "hard work" poor poor players behind their screen that "worked" so hard... lol
anyway still arguing weither it's possible or not doesn't matter, it's about intent.

I don't know what exactly you wanted to hear. The question was "why wouldn't you kill" and we provided a fair answer.

Accept it or fuck off.

It wasn't a fair answer because you are supposed to put yourself in th shoes of a griefer, to immerse yourself in the mindset of a griefer.

All the responses i got was from the point of view of the person responding as themselves but no as if they were the griefer.

Answers like "i wouldn't do it because i would feel bad about players that worked so hard" are still your own perspective and not as if you where a griefer.

The title of the post is "You are a griefer", so try to picture yourself as a griefer starting a new life, what could motivate you to not grief this life?

Keep in mind that negative motivation are not the best since they are always going to be fought against, you can implement as many negative motivations like donkey town and such, if a griefer wants to grief he will find a way.

Basically how to make the game in a way that even a griefer would eventually get immersed in the game and eventually forget that he was about to grief.

If you start a new life with the intention to grief and there's plenty of food around, no strugle for survival, no need for communication or interaction with others then what are you going to do? grief of course.

But if sudenly you actually need to cooperate, plan for survival, communicate, organize etc then you might even forget that you where about to grief because you get immersed in the situation going on.

Picture this scenario:

You are a griefer

You just started a new life, your mother carries you for your first 4 years

She then drops you in the family house and as you walk around you realize that there is absolutely no food available for you and going outside to try to find food would result in you most likely dying

The only food available is locked in a safe room ("fridge").

What do you do?

Reasonnably you would start to ask for food right?

And would they tell you?

That you have to work for it "here we trust you with that hoe, go tile some rows, plant seeds, water them and come back here"

So what do you do?

Well you dont have any choice, you start farming, come back and since you earned their trust they give you a bowl of berries, enough to survive for some time.

And what would have happenned if you tried to be idiot and start griefing right away by running away with the hoe for example?

Well you would have died and they would have only lost a hoe (stone hoe btw since they werent gonna trust someone right away with a steel one)

You finished your bowl of berries and now they want you to trade the wheat you just grew for pies with the baker living next door.

Etc.

Eventually you're old, the final song starts playing, your screen turns black, you lived to 60, died of old age, it was a great life, you forgot that you where about to grief when you started that life.

jcwilk · 2019-12-16 09:02:57

I mean, my post was pretty openly from the perspective of a sometimes griefer, no need to imagine haha.

But yeah i agree with your post about how property can come into play hypothetically, especially wrt food. It would be interesting to try to think through how such a village could actually be built and what, if anything, is missing from the existing mechanics.

A lot can be done with property fences and property fence boxes... But it's all crazy unintuitive atm, if the system fell into the hands of noobs it would 100% immediately fall apart

LunyTerror · 2019-12-16 09:47:07

Griefers when they born in a thriving village.

sigmen4020 · 2019-12-16 10:24:47

Spoonwood wrote:

jcwilk wrote:
Yeah I get what you're saying about the gasp thing but it does serve the utility it's supposed to be serving though, at least, even if it's not quite as punchy as it could be. The murder mouth thing feels about right though.
Murder mouth is awful. It makes for a too darn enticing of a sound. It has interesting qualities all on its own. This is supposed to be a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building. It's not suppose to be one where murdering for the hell of it becomes attractive, because of an attractive sound.

Still better than no warning at all, which was the old system. Compared to the old system you have a lot more agency about your fate.

Before murder mouth we had:

Auto-targeting PvP with no warning, just shift+right click and the victim will be stabbed/shot when within range.

After murder mouth:

A delay on killing that gives the victim a chance to assess the situation.

Murder mouth, which clearly indicates who is trying attack the soon-to-be victim.

Gasp to let the soon-to-be victim know that they are being targeted.

Posse system that makes sure that a lone murderer will always be slower than their target.

Conclusion:

All this combined gives a victim plenty of time to react to an attack, whereas the old system heavily favored the attacker with a system boiling down to shift+right click and you are dead.

Dodge wrote:

Tbf the "PVP" system had a lot of improvements and its much less easy to kill now than before, still not enough though since sometimes when i target some people will just stand there until they get stabbed/shot.
The "GASP" + shock face still feels a little underwhelming imo, you are supposed to fear for your life after all and not be like "oh i'm shocked someone is trying to murder me".

On another note, with the amount of warning you get in the current PvP system, it's kind of your own fault that you didn't escape in time. Even with no in-game sounds you can still see the [gasp] and emotes plain as day. IMHO it doesn't need to be more extravagent than it already is.

Dodge · 2019-12-16 10:37:22

sigmen4020 wrote:

On another note, with the amount of warning you get in the current PvP system, it's kind of your own fault that you didn't escape in time. Even with no in-game sounds you can still see the [gasp] and emotes plain as day. IMHO it doesn't need to be more extravagent than it already is.

Yeah i guess it's a matter of getting killed at least one time then learning that "GASP" means someone is targetting you and you should run away.

But ideally even a complete noob first time player should feel like his life is in danger when getting targetted, it would also be more immersive than what we have currently, but it's still a lot better than before.

IIRC first time murder was introduced you would just get instant death black screen and murderer would have no cooldown, so definitly a long way from we have now.

sigmen4020 · 2019-12-16 10:46:20

Dodge wrote:

It wasn't a fair answer because you are supposed to put yourself in th shoes of a griefer, to immerse yourself in the mindset of a griefer.

Ok, I'll humor you and try and picture myself as a griefer. When I get spawned in I would immediately look for ways to cause grief for my fellow villagers. No weapons available? Then I would either look for other ways to cause grief or seek to craft my own weapon, preferably a bow out in the wild.

Depending on the game plan I would either pick of villagers that go outside of town the town with my newly crafted bow, or I would begin stealing vital stuff and hiding it when noone is paying attention.

Why would a griefer think of any village's well-being in the first place?

Dodge wrote:

Picture this scenario:
You are a griefer
You just started a new life, your mother carries you for your first 4 years
She then drops you in the family house and as you walk around you realize that there is absolutely no food available for you and going outside to try to find food would result in you most likely dying
The only food available is locked in a safe room ("fridge").

First of all this is an unbelievably unlikely scenario. If the only food around is in some "fridge", how in the world would anyone even be alive at that point? Also who exactly think locking all food away is a good idea, besides griefers.

Dodge wrote:

What do you do?
Reasonnably you would start to ask for food right?

If it really was that desperate then I would think the griefer would just /die immediately to find a griefing target that at least has some food, so they have a chance to start griefing.

Dodge wrote:

And would they tell you?
That you have to work for it "here we trust you with that hoe, go tile some rows, plant seeds, water them and come back here"
So what do you do?
Well you dont have any choice, you start farming, come back and since you earned their trust they give you a bowl of berries, enough to survive for some time.

What makes you think that any griefer would honor such a request? It already goes into almost unrealistic territory since most griefers probably would skip such a place anyway.

Dodge wrote:

And what would have happenned if you tried to be idiot and start griefing right away by running away with the hoe for example?
Well you would have died and they would have only lost a hoe (stone hoe btw since they werent gonna trust someone right away with a steel one)

Why would a griefer care if they died? They could just respawn to grief a new village, so it's a very mild inconvenience at best.

Dodge wrote:

You finished your bowl of berries and now they want you to trade the wheat you just grew for pies with the baker living next door.

Trading is that is not a thing in this game and will probably never be a thing. Leaving aside that a griefer would never do this. Why would the baker need a bowl of berries? And why would he waste time trading with you when they could just get the wheat themself, or have someone else gather the wheat for free without arbitrarily trading wheat for berries?

Dodge wrote:

Etc.
Etc.
Etc.
Eventually you're old, the final song starts playing, your screen turns black, you lived to 60, died of old age, it was a great life, you forgot that you where about to grief when you started that life.

So this is all a very nice fairy tale and all, but that would literally never happen. Many things in this story are wildly unrealistic (all food locked in a "fridge", trading wheat for berries) when you compare to how things actually are in-game, and also a bunch of wild assumptions about how griefers think. In reality if a griefer would be put in such a hopeless scenario, when even their childhood survival would be pretty much impossible, they would just skip the place altogether.

One final question:

Give me one good reason why a griefer wouldn't just /die out of that situation immediately, and move on to the next family?

Dodge · 2019-12-16 11:15:41

sigmen4020 wrote:

One final question:
Give me one good reason why a griefer wouldn't just /die out of that situation immediately, and move on to the next family?

Because every place would be like that, food would be a precious ressource that you have to earn, so even if a griefer would /die his next home wouldn't just give him free food for nothing and without cooperating he would surely die.

The baker needs wheat but he's not a farmer that's he trades for the wheat with the farmer.

Of course all of these is assuming the game is very different than right now but that's the point how do we go from a game where a griefer would just start a life and grief to a game where even a griefer would forget about griefing because he gets immersed in what the game requires him to do.

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#51 2019-12-15 22:06:20

Re: You are a griefer

#52 2019-12-15 22:24:56

Re: You are a griefer

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Re: You are a griefer

#54 2019-12-16 00:01:50

Re: You are a griefer

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Re: You are a griefer

#56 2019-12-16 00:33:32

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Re: You are a griefer

#58 2019-12-16 00:44:43

Re: You are a griefer

#59 2019-12-16 01:53:29

Re: You are a griefer

#60 2019-12-16 01:59:05

Re: You are a griefer

#61 2019-12-16 02:26:49

Re: You are a griefer

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Re: You are a griefer

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Re: You are a griefer

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Re: You are a griefer

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Re: You are a griefer

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Re: You are a griefer

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Re: You are a griefer

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Re: You are a griefer

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Re: You are a griefer

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Re: You are a griefer

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