Property is a search engine for physical items

Kinrany · 2020-01-07 22:37:34

We want property to exist in OHOL. We want people to own stuff, privately or collectively. We want property to emerge from the game's rules, not just force everyone to pretend.

We expect property to exist in OHOL. We're surprised that it doesn't. Because it exists in the real world, and we don't know what the difference is.

Property is a social technology, and using it is not free for the society. It's easy to imagine situations where stealing is good for the society, as long as we ignore that it undermines ownership.
A classic example is a starving person stealing a loaf of bread from the baker. The thief (and the society, see welfare) values living for another day more than the baker values one of the hundred loafs he made that day.

So there must be a reason why choosing to uphold property is a positive-sum action that benefits the society as a whole. For some reason it's not just a zero-sum action that prevents redistribution.

I think property makes it easy to find stuff.

When you need a tool in OHOL, you can spend a minute searching for it. Either you'll find it, or you'll make one yourself because the town needs one.

But you can't do that IRL. Even if there was a huge warehouse with one tool of each kind, you'd never find the one you need by looking at them one by one.
Realistically, instead of physically walking around and looking at each individual item, you'd ask someone who knows where to find the thing. Amazon, a supermarket employee, or the shop owner.

But how do they know?
Suppose the shop owner saw the item a week ago in the shop's storage room. How do they know it's still there?

Yeah, because they own the item!
Because no one but them is allowed to do anything to it. And someone breaking the law and stealing the item would be extraordinary.
They might not even remember where it is. They might have to consult their notes. But they'll be sure that the notes are not outdated.
They don't just know that they have the item somewhere. They know exactly where to find it. Because taking the item from the shelf and hiding it in the corner is also not allowed.

Corollary: to make property and ownership necessary, Jason needs to make the game more complicated. That is, we need more content :^)

Kinrany · 2020-01-07 22:49:10

Ah, it seems someone has already written a post about ownership in 2018: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2543

Thought that post was asking for a way to make ownership easier, while this post is suggesting that we don't yet have enough reasons to use ownership.

jcwilk · 2020-01-07 22:57:25

Hetuw mod search function. Problem solved

DestinyCall · 2020-01-07 23:12:08

Ownership is an outdated concept. Welcome to the utopian future, free from the shackles of commercialism.

We are one village, one people, one community. We need no fences to hold us back. No locks to bar our doors or clutter or boxes. There is only the infinite generous floor where all items begin and all items return, in time. Just like our bones.

We are all part of the cycle. We are all one. Property is a lie. Renounce it.

Spoonwood · 2020-01-07 23:41:22

I don't find it surprising that property doesn't exist in OHOL. Historically speaking I think property has always succeeded a government existing. Governments don't exist in OHOL or are too short lived if they exist. The number of players in a location also seems rather small for governments to exist on a regular basis. So, I don't see a reason why property would ever exist in OHOL.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-01-08 02:31:46)

Cantface · 2020-01-08 00:22:49

It's communism or bust! Literally monopolies would probably 'ruin' OHOL in one way or another.

Kinrany · 2020-01-08 01:21:01

Spoonwood wrote:

Historically speaking I think property has always succeed a government existing.

Where do you draw the line between existence and nonexistence for these things?

Both are essentially about being able to control the world around you. Ownership is about being able to control items, while government is about being able to control people's actions.
A warrior owns the stone spear as long as the spear can't be taken by anyone else, and as long as the warrior can throw it away.
A father governs his child when he can take the toy away from her.

Both are variations of the concept of having power over the world. I'm pretty sure the understanding of ownership and governance developed in parallel.

Spoonwood · 2020-01-08 02:38:48

Kinrany wrote:

Ownership is about being able to control items, while government is about being able to control people's actions.

I just don't find the first part of that statement accurate enough. Ownership isn't about controlling items in a general sense, because no ownership rights get violated when a (real) bear destroys human property or something like a tree falls on a person's house. Ownership is about having protection from other human beings messing with your things, but humans aren't everything in nature. Protection from other human beings requires government.

You're correct that I don't have a clear dividing line between existence and non-existence for ownership and government, but I think I don't need to, since I think the above suffices to know that ownership is about certain things not happening via other human beings.

Power over other people isn't enough for concluding power over the world exists. Delusional cult leaders have had plenty of power over other people, but don't have power over the world.

Kinrany · 2020-01-08 03:01:05

Um, sorry, but I think you failed to read what I wrote correctly and I don't feel like correcting you would be a good use of my time, so I'll wait and see if anyone else will interpret it the same way.

Dodge · 2020-01-08 08:22:57

Players are not going to bother to make a private property just to make it easier for others to find stuff? (that's what you meant in your post right?)

I dont see you proposing any changes in your post, so what is your angle exactly?

You want forum users to start making private properties after reading your post because it could help find objects?

That wont happen and even if it does it will fade away eventually.

Properties are not made currently because you simply dont need them and that's about it.

Kinrany · 2020-01-08 11:55:11

Dodge wrote:

Properties are not made currently because you simply dont need them and that's about it.

Yep, that's my point.

More specifically, I'm saying that it needs to be harder to find things for property to be more useful. And adding content is the most obvious, though not the easiest way to achieve that.

Spoonwood · 2020-01-08 12:14:48

Dodge wrote:

Properties are not made currently because you simply dont need them and that's about it.

There's plenty of things that get made in the game that players don't need and the players who make those things often know such. Shrines, bearskin rugs, igloos. Necessity is not the only reason why people do things. People also have property rights over luxury items in the real world. Perhaps as an example, there's no need for property rights for a version of monopoly in the sense of any necessity to the person's survival. So, I just simply don't agree with what you said there.

Dodge · 2020-01-08 12:38:42

Kinrany wrote:

Dodge wrote:
Properties are not made currently because you simply dont need them and that's about it.
Yep, that's my point.
More specifically, I'm saying that it needs to be harder to find things for property to be more useful. And adding content is the most obvious, though not the easiest way to achieve that.

Wait what?

You want objects to be harder to find? how? and also it seems like a bad way to make property a thing and probably wont work since players will just find a way to go around it.

Do we have private properties in real life because it makes sorting things better?

Unless you are talking about a warehouse or a storage place then no.

Gogo · 2020-01-08 12:40:59

Add a bonus to owners, like bonus for giving birth (which is realistic btw ) and there, you have a reason to build and own property.

I was thinking about houses, but we already can make them, house + locks, no one does that. We can't own doors, griefers would own bakeries/smiths.

My idea is - we can have sheets, for tents. Property fence + sheet = non decaying property. Sheet can be made after having loom. Tents can be always re-used after deaths of owners.

pein · 2020-01-08 13:28:53

that's just called consumerism, that you got more tools than you need for the sake of ownership

there is no good way to say who owns what, especially now

lot of times I get a horse, spending my time to get the lasso, the first asshole steals it when I need to eat, that's 15 minutes lost
but then did I made the horse alone? cause I need a sheepskin which suggests that I need a knife, sheep, I need cart and needle and wood and fence and shovel and all the things to make the horse. So probably we already got those so how many parts of the horsecart do I own?

or the Eve makes one shovelhead and the family survives trough one female
that shovel head is just half of the tool, needs a shaft, who owns it? the player who made the smithing or the one who completed it?
or even better question: you make all the parts for an engine but some player assembles it, so technically he "made" the engine but took 2 min to assemble and 60 to make.

some people could make more than the whole city of newbies and property for her and her kids make kinda sense
but life is too short and eventually properties end up in wrong hands, hoarders just steal stuff and lock it away and the family dies

we either need a currency which can be spent on special items which cannot be made by other means
or a subcategory of items that can be owned privately and won't disturb the main activities of the city

for example you would do a quest to create 10 pies, reward 10 oholium, then buy yourself an upgraded oven
you could have rigths to use it, share it or not, since you did something to own it
and others can do the same and can't complain if you got something for your bucks

other would be like planting coffee beans which you buy the seeds for, sell coffee on market (no need to have a use or purpose other than selling it) then get more seeds on market and run a business for the goal of making more private items

you could like have shop bought shovels and normal player made shovels?

Gogo · 2020-01-08 13:54:45

pein wrote:

some people could make more than the whole city of newbies and property for her and her kids make kinda sense but life is too short and eventually properties end up in wrong hands, hoarders just steal stuff and lock it away and the family dies

Enough curses will cause griefer to lost ownership, problem solved.

Villas · 2020-01-08 17:02:18

Gogo wrote:

pein wrote:
some people could make more than the whole city of newbies and property for her and her kids make kinda sense but life is too short and eventually properties end up in wrong hands, hoarders just steal stuff and lock it away and the family dies
Enough curses will cause griefer to lost ownership, problem solved.

I agree that curses could work, although enough thieves could steal property as well, principally in multi-race towns where race wars happen or just a bunch of trolls on discord could massive curse to steal property each hour.

Kinrany · 2020-01-08 17:45:26

Dodge wrote:

Do we have private properties in real life because it makes sorting things better?

That's what I'm saying.

It's not that searching becomes faster per se. It's that in most cases you don't need to search because you know that no one has moved the item since the last time you saw it.

Just having more objects would make it harder to find stuff. Or we could have opaque containers that have to be opened individually and can't be checked just by looking at them.

We have property fences, they work well enough when you want to make a large number of items private.

Dodge · 2020-01-08 18:01:43

Kinrany wrote:

Dodge wrote:
Do we have private properties in real life because it makes sorting things better?
That's what I'm saying.
It's not that searching becomes faster per se. It's that in most cases you don't need to search because you know that no one has moved the item since the last time you saw it.
Just having more objects would make it harder to find stuff. Or we could have opaque containers that have to be opened individually and can't be checked just by looking at them.
We have property fences, they work well enough when you want to make a large number of items private.

What i'm saying is that properties in real life exist for other reasons

Also why would players specifically put objects in these containers in order to make it more difficult for others to find it?

Doesn't make sense

I really cant imagine players make a property only to have sorting of objects be easier, if bigger opaque containers are added to the game they will just be used as is without anyone making properties to have these containers in them.

Kinrany · 2020-01-08 19:47:43

What i'm saying is that properties in real life exist for other reasons

But do they? What are those reasons?

Remember that the reason must apply to the society as a whole, not just the owner who privatizes stuff. Even in OHOL players think that "property is theft" and lynch fence owners.

DestinyCall · 2020-01-08 23:14:19

So have you tried making a storage area for yourself, Kinrany?

I'm of the opinion it is a huge waste of time, but if you feel there is value to the idea, why don't you try making storage pens for your children. Make several small fenced areas - one for each kid. I recommend making three or four pens - add more if you have a lot of children. Build the fences and gates when you are young, then give ownership of one pen to each child. Explain that this area is their property and they can use it to store what they make or stuff they need during their life. Warn them against keeping more than they need to inside the storage pen - nobody likes a greedy horder. And encourage them to select an heir to pass on ownership before they die.

If you have spare time, make even more pens and give ownership to other people's kids too. Ideally, the goal should be to give a private space to every living person in the village by the time you die. If only one person has private storage, they will be singled out, but if everyone owns some land, it becomes normal and more accepted.

Maybe people will like having private property enough to maintain the tradition after you are gone. Maybe they won't. It would be an interesting experiment.

The biggest problems I can see are milkweed production and space constraints. You will need one rope for each pen, which adds up quickly if you have lots of kids or want to provide storage pens for the whole village. And all those pens are going to take up valuable real estate. If you build the storage areas in the middle of town, they will block movement and get in the way of other people. But if you put them too far outside of town, it will be too inconvenient to travel all they way there to store items. Hopefully, your town has a fast road - building property adjacent to the road would be best. They could be away from the center of town, but still easily accessible.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2020-01-08 23:54:08)

pein · 2020-01-08 23:54:06

fence gates use shaft now, not a rope
so the cost isn't that big

ideally you could fit a cistern between each four fence pens, each with access to the water, but no access to other property, if you put doors or graves, since they can't open them diagonally
only downside is that the one who refills it , can be subject to raid (or that could be the airlock for outsiders to trade), and two of these properties would be bigger than the other if they would be square from outside

DestinyCall · 2020-01-09 00:01:58

Oh interesting. I must have missed that change. Much easier to accomplish.

If I was building storage pens for other people, I would probably make stucco adobe corners for safety. Less secure storage, but it would help to prevent griefers from trapping babies or noobs inside the pens and discourage people from abusing the private property by hording valuables in excess. Theft would be possible,but relatively difficult, since taking down a wall takes time and coordination. The elder approval process is too long, imo.

Solid corners also simplify upkeep.

...

As far as adding a cistern, that is an excellent idea for farming plots or homesteads. However, I was just thinking about creating modest storage-only areas. A farming plot would be much larger and more complex.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2020-01-09 00:08:39)

pein · 2020-01-09 00:44:44

since the grapes can be moved, and sauerkraut too, waystones are good for front of door blockage protection

I think is fine to have a few bushes inside a private homestead, if you move each girl elsewhere then you can live there with any number of sons, a sheep or pig pen also decent inside

Spoonwood · 2020-01-09 01:47:33

DestinyCall wrote:

I'm of the opinion it is a huge waste of time, but if you feel there is value to the idea, why don't you try making storage pens for your children.

I agree with your suggestion to Kinrany. But, personally if I got born inside of those places, I just wouldn't get it, and might /die away from there. I surely wouldn't get it. In the real world there's plenty of advantages to indoor private spaces beyond video games, electricity, running water, toilets, not having sunglare or sun bearing down on your skin, protection from wind if you're writing on papers (semi-enclosed areas can do rather well for that also), heat or air conditioning, showers, and more. In OHOL As soon as I'm 3, what advantages does an experienced player have to being born in such a place? Some foods for yum purposes? A stew pot inside of a place like that would probably get classified as hoarding by people outsiders. A potato or two might work, I guess. Maybe some other cooked foods could work, but I'm not seeing much else.

And even then starting at 3, were I playing on bs2, I'm probably going to get moving around the town or out to the local grassland for branches or kindling, or would be trying to improve my clothing set or maybe organize the smithy or bakery a bit or farming at an early age. I don't know why I would run back to such a place either at any point in time. It won't help my family acquire or maintain advanced resources. It won't get my family more water. It wouldn't be as attractive as trying to do advanced technology like an oil rig or car. It wouldn't be potentially useful like getting even a whole backpack and basket worth of rope from the rope, or a cart load of baskets of rope. Or making milk. Or digging up lots of springs to hope that other families can have more water. Or building roads.

If the mother wants to make it more likely that the child survives, I think it's better to just give the child a backpack with a potato, a piece of bread, and then two more foods from among a carrot, tomato, and onion... though preferably it would be something like a carrot pie and a rabbit pie *given that* the village was very well packed with food. At least, I think that's kind of similar to the 'make basket, carry food' advice that someone a while back seemed to have success with helping their children stay alive.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2020-01-07 22:37:34

Property is a search engine for physical items

#2 2020-01-07 22:49:10

Re: Property is a search engine for physical items

#3 2020-01-07 22:57:25

Re: Property is a search engine for physical items

#4 2020-01-07 23:12:08

Re: Property is a search engine for physical items

#5 2020-01-07 23:41:22

Re: Property is a search engine for physical items

#6 2020-01-08 00:22:49

Re: Property is a search engine for physical items

#7 2020-01-08 01:21:01

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#8 2020-01-08 02:38:48

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#9 2020-01-08 03:01:05

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#10 2020-01-08 08:22:57

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#11 2020-01-08 11:55:11

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#12 2020-01-08 12:14:48

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#13 2020-01-08 12:38:42

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#14 2020-01-08 12:40:59

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#15 2020-01-08 13:28:53

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#16 2020-01-08 13:54:45

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#17 2020-01-08 17:02:18

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#18 2020-01-08 17:45:26

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#19 2020-01-08 18:01:43

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#20 2020-01-08 19:47:43

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#21 2020-01-08 23:14:19

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#22 2020-01-08 23:54:06

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#23 2020-01-09 00:01:58

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