Property is a search engine for physical items

DestinyCall · 2020-01-09 04:58:40

Spoonwood wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
I'm of the opinion it is a huge waste of time, but if you feel there is value to the idea, why don't you try making storage pens for your children.
I agree with your suggestion to Kinrany. But, personally if I got born inside of those places, I just wouldn't get it, and might /die away from there. I surely wouldn't get it. In the real world there's plenty of advantages to indoor private spaces beyond video games, electricity, running water, toilets, not having sunglare or sun bearing down on your skin, protection from wind if you're writing on papers (semi-enclosed areas can do rather well for that also), heat or air conditioning, showers, and more. In OHOL As soon as I'm 3, what advantages does an experienced player have to being born in such a place? Some foods for yum purposes? A stew pot inside of a place like that would probably get classified as hoarding by people outsiders. A potato or two might work, I guess. Maybe some other cooked foods could work, but I'm not seeing much else.
And even then starting at 3, were I playing on bs2, I'm probably going to get moving around the town or out to the local grassland for branches or kindling, or would be trying to improve my clothing set or maybe organize the smithy or bakery a bit or farming at an early age. I don't know why I would run back to such a place either at any point in time. It won't help my family acquire or maintain advanced resources. It won't get my family more water. It wouldn't be as attractive as trying to do advanced technology like an oil rig or car. It wouldn't be potentially useful like getting even a whole backpack and basket worth of rope from the rope, or a cart load of baskets of rope. Or making milk. Or digging up lots of springs to hope that other families can have more water. Or building roads.
If the mother wants to make it more likely that the child survives, I think it's better to just give the child a backpack with a potato, a piece of bread, and then two more foods from among a carrot, tomato, and onion... though preferably it would be something like a carrot pie and a rabbit pie *given that* the village was very well packed with food. At least, I think that's kind of similar to the 'make basket, carry food' advice that someone a while back seemed to have success with helping their children stay alive.

Just to clarify, I'm not proposing that you store your children in the pens or try to live inside them yourself. I'm suggesting that you make storage areas and give each kid full access to one pen to use as a private storage depot. It will be entirely optional how much they want to use their personal space or what they will do with it. I suspect most players would just ignore the opportunity to own a little piece of property since it is not strictly necessary for survival and would be pretty small, but some people might like having somewhere relatively safe to keep their stuff.

I suggested doing this for your children for two reasons. One - it takes a while to mature property fences so you will get more use out of a pen that you inherit from your mother than from a pen you make yourself. And Two - There is a safety in numbers. One person with a storage pen stands out from the crowd, but if everyone has a pen, they are more likely to accept and make use of their pens instead of killing the hoarder.

Kinrany · 2020-01-09 06:45:19

I'm of the opinion it is a huge waste of time, but if you feel there is value to the idea, why don't you try making storage pens for your children.

It would be an interesting experiment.

But again, the whole point of this thread is to explain why making storage pens is a waste of time in the current game.

DestinyCall · 2020-01-09 07:14:54

Because sharing one froe is more efficient than making ten froe. Simple as that.

Dodge · 2020-01-09 07:47:52

Kinrany wrote:

What i'm saying is that properties in real life exist for other reasons
But do they? What are those reasons?
Remember that the reason must apply to the society as a whole, not just the owner who privatizes stuff. Even in OHOL players think that "property is theft" and lynch fence owners.

Well there is multiple reasons but one of them is that having a property or at least renting a private place that you can call home and put your belongings (ressources) in it, increases the chance of survival for you and your family/close ones.

Since these ressources belong to you and your group it means theorically (if we dont count theft) that nobody else will have access to them and they are yours so if you have food and are hungry then the food in your property is yours and yours only, which means you wont die of starvation.

As opposed to a scenario where the food belongs to everyone and is free to take but also means that it is not yours so in case there is less of it you might die if someone else takes it.

But currently this doesn't exist in the game for multiple reasons :

Easy survival without shelter

Incentive not big enough to care for your close family (members who count for genetic score and not entire lineage)

Overabundance of food

That's part of the reason why properties are not a thing in the game currently.

Ideally there would be instances where its "your group or them" and not having a private property with belongings and a house means your group has a lower chance of survival and ultimately ends up dying and lowering your score compared to the other group with a property that would survive and have their score increase.

But most of the time cooperation between groups would be the best thing to do.

Last edited by Dodge (2020-01-09 07:48:52)

Lum · 2020-01-09 10:46:38

Please don't say "we" as if everyone agrees with you. There is an explicit group of people that is against property.

Potjeh · 2020-01-09 12:21:36

Private property is never going to work with the one hour life premise of the game, so pls stop trying to force it.

testo · 2020-01-09 19:35:43

Potjeh wrote:

Private property is never going to work with the one hour life premise of the game, so pls stop trying to force it.

Wait, why? what premise? I am not specially thrilled by property but I am of the idea that it can be implemented (and backpacks are private property anyways).

DestinyCall · 2020-01-09 21:08:17

He is probably talking about the whole "one hour" thing. Since the idea is that you move on to a new life in a new village and rarely return to the same place again, there is little value in accumulating wealth beyond what you can personally use in a single lifetime. One hour isn't very long. Building a house takes a long time. Making your own tools takes a long time. Raising your own sheep, growing your own wheat, and baking your own pies also takes time.

Private property is tricky because it limits access to valuable tools and resources and impedes free movement. Time is precious in OHOL. Dealing with the additional barriers imposed by personal property slows down or even halts important work. If the village only has two buckets, we can't afford everyone keeping their buckets in private areas. Most people won't have any access to buckets and won't be able to complete any bucket-related jobs.

Private property encourages a lot of redundancy. Everyone would need a set of basic tools and storage options. Everyone would need a supply of water and compost in their personal space to allow farming-related jobs. The game does not support this level of fragmentation. It wastes too much time and requires too much extra work.

It might be possible if we had access to cheap stone tools and more options for renewable water sources. But currently, it is too time-consuming to set-up a dozen mini-villages so everyone can have their own hoe and bucket and horse and sheep.

Villas · 2020-01-09 23:28:45

Dodge wrote:

As opposed to a scenario where the food belongs to everyone and is free to take but also means that it is not yours so in case there is less of it you might die if someone else takes it.
But currently this doesn't exist in the game for multiple reasons :
Easy survival without shelter
Incentive not big enough to care for your close family (members who count for genetic score and not entire lineage)
Overabundance of food
That's part of the reason why properties are not a thing in the game currently.
Ideally there would be instances where its "your group or them" and not having a private property with belongings and a house means your group has a lower chance of survival and ultimately ends up dying and lowering your score compared to the other group with a property that would survive and have their score increase.

That makes sense, although people don't react exactly like that.
I remember the rift when we had several mass starvation, we made property fences to protect against other families, but when food ran low, we started to kill each other. My daughter killed me because I was too old and we didn't had much food. Another time I was killed because I had three daughters and fed them while a group of people were yelling we could only raise 2 babies per mother.
Strangely enough, people would rather stop the population growth or even lower it instead of using private property. So I think we need something else, dunno what.

DestinyCall wrote:

He is probably talking about the whole "one hour" thing. Since the idea is that you move on to a new life in a new village and rarely return to the same place again, there is little value in accumulating wealth beyond what you can personally use in a single lifetime. One hour isn't very long. Building a house takes a long time. Making your own tools takes a long time. Raising your own sheep, growing your own wheat, and baking your own pies also takes time.
Private property is tricky because it limits access to valuable tools and resources and impedes free movement. Time is precious in OHOL. Dealing with the additional barriers imposed by personal property slows down or even halts important work. If the village only has two buckets, we can't afford everyone keeping their buckets in private areas. Most people won't have any access to buckets and won't be able to complete any bucket-related jobs.
Private property encourages a lot of redundancy. Everyone would need a set of basic tools and storage options. Everyone would need a supply of water and compost in their personal space to allow farming-related jobs. The game does not support this level of fragmentation. It wastes too much time and requires too much extra work.
It might be possible if we had access to cheap stone tools and more options for renewable water sources. But currently, it is too time-consuming to set-up a dozen mini-villages so everyone can have their own hoe and bucket and horse and sheep.

Unless we create a sort of currency, let's suppose I'm really good at making carts, I could buy ropes from a milkweed farmer and chop trees, then start my mass production of carts, then I could trade them for some gold coins and buy pies. I don't need sheeps, compost, water, wheat and whatnot. I just need a saw, froe and an axe, and then I can produce, carts, buckets, shelves for the whole town and receive some gold coins or even items such as clothes, food, etc...
My kids can inherit that and keep my work or sell the property for some gold and do something else, this way we wouldn't have that much redundancy and it would be waaay funnier than making a cart for free for someone take it and lose in the wild, at least I would receive money for that, then the person can do whatever they want and could hire helpers with the money with a salary like 5 gold coins each five years or whatever.

I know I'm just dreaming, and the game is far from that. Just saying capitalism is more interesting/rewarding than communism, and we don't need to be redundant. IRL I'm a programmer and when I want a pie, either I buy the ingredients or a pie made by someone else, I just need to do what I am good at (and what people are disposed to pay for, what people actually need).
I agree that if everyone has to make a mini village inside property fences, it would be a mass. The only way around that is have currency or at least a kind of trade working. I like currencies because they encourage trading, gives an insight inside each person.

Last edited by Villas (2020-01-09 23:46:46)

PXshadow · 2020-01-10 00:27:10

Property is just ownership (the ability to exclude others from use of something) and to say that property doesn't exist in this game doesn't seem to be correct, property does exist in the game it's just limited, for instance, if you make a backpack and you put it on your character you now have become the owner and most people in the game will respect your property and not attempt to kill you for a backpack thus a norm has been developed. Where property massively falls short in the game is in property claims of land and items within the land, a very local minority in the game, will claim anything not in the commons is stealing and with no self interest in mind spend life after life undermining any type of ownership you are attempting to hold onto.

If you think property is just about a search engine for physical items, then I think it's a valid answer of just having a mod search for the items instead of deal with the hurdles of setting up property.

Kinrany wrote:

A classic example is a starving person stealing a loaf of bread from the baker. The thief (and the society, see welfare) values living for another day more than the baker values one of the hundred loafs he made that day.

This is just utilitarianism, another classic example is if there was 5 people that needed organs and a guy sitting on his couch at home and he had all of the organs you needed for the five people. You could grab him from his home and take out all of his organs against his will before he died and give them to the five people, because the value of the five people living compared to the one person living was greater for "society". A society that I wouldn't want to live in, and I don't want to live in a society that finds it acceptable to steal. I find a law based society (laws that are there only to avoid conflict) a much better society than one that has any premise on "collective good", "national security", "us", "public goods", "societal value" etc.

Kinrany wrote:

But do they? What are those reasons?
Remember that the reason must apply to the society as a whole, not just the owner who privatizes stuff. Even in OHOL players think that "property is theft" and lynch fence owners.

I dislike utilitarian arguments as you've probably already guessed, and I think the people that think "property is theft" and lynch fence owners don't act based on reason but rather strong mystical emotions, however for you I'll make some.

- Property allows for specialized use of labor and land in order to make societies more wealthy.
- Property upholds universal protections to acquire wealth and increase the time preference for individuals and families to think longer term.
- Property decentralizes power and provides a system to avoid conflict and have clear means to acquire it for a rational justice system. (original appropriation or trade)
- Property allows trade to occur

I hope this helps, cheers.

pein · 2020-01-10 01:52:46

would be interesting to have a deathmatch type of OHOL for a while

people could only join one team for the week
each team would have their own people spawning back to them unless they curse them

multiple families of different color would belong to each team (I think we can't do more than 3x4 teamsXfamilies)

each team is locked and can't make peace outside the team

each team family is auto peace and can't be changed

the four teams would have a goal to accomplish, some sort of point system to show the difference

joining a low standing team would give you more lives and other boosts, to stabilize the teams, the weaker standign ones would get some uplift

I likws the way that the world can end, not with 700x700 tiles, maybe a few thousand

lets sya that the 4 teams spawn in 4 corners and they got to get to the middle

the vegetation and animals would be super dense on the middle so you would need to cut your way trough it or you would need to activate certain spots at the same time to open the way inside.

first team to get inside the centre, wins.

everybody would spawn to the same team so we could have properties, there would be a way to travel to newly made outposts if you made your way into them the traditional way (on foot or horse then build a transport spot)

Dodge · 2020-01-10 08:27:47

Villas wrote:

That makes sense, although people don't react exactly like that.
I remember the rift when we had several mass starvation, we made property fences to protect against other families, but when food ran low, we started to kill each other. My daughter killed me because I was too old and we didn't had much food. Another time I was killed because I had three daughters and fed them while a group of people were yelling we could only raise 2 babies per mother.
Strangely enough, people would rather stop the population growth or even lower it instead of using private property. So I think we need something else, dunno what.

During the rift there was no tool restrictions and no family specializations so of course people where killing everyone because we didn't need each other but now if you kill someone you are potentially shooting yourself in the foot so you have to think a bit more before mindlessly killing.

Also killing is harder now so there is less random killing.

One Hour One Life Forums

#26 2020-01-09 04:58:40

Re: Property is a search engine for physical items

#27 2020-01-09 06:45:19

Re: Property is a search engine for physical items

#28 2020-01-09 07:14:54

Re: Property is a search engine for physical items

#29 2020-01-09 07:47:52

Re: Property is a search engine for physical items

#30 2020-01-09 10:46:38

Re: Property is a search engine for physical items

#31 2020-01-09 12:21:36

Re: Property is a search engine for physical items

#32 2020-01-09 19:35:43

Re: Property is a search engine for physical items

#33 2020-01-09 21:08:17

Re: Property is a search engine for physical items

#34 2020-01-09 23:28:45

Re: Property is a search engine for physical items

#35 2020-01-10 00:27:10

Re: Property is a search engine for physical items

#36 2020-01-10 01:52:46

Re: Property is a search engine for physical items

#37 2020-01-10 08:27:47

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