[Discussion] The new Genetic Fitness calculator doesn't fix the issue

Wuatduhf · 2020-01-17 03:01:32

Oh boy it's one of my threads again...better dig in quick!

If you read these forums there's no way you haven't already seen the recent dev changes on the server back-end for how Gene Fitness now works. I'll keep this short and explain the formulas that have existed, and the formula that (I think) should exist.

The issue that plagued iteration #2 of the Fitness calculations pretty much boiled down to one interaction: Life Expectancy and Sudden Infant Death. Even Tarr didn't quite catch on to what was going on, but essentially, here's what's going on:

Everyone's Fitness calculation is based on the Life Expectancy of their last 10 lives before the current one.

Assume you were to instantly-SID 10 times in a row, dying exactly at Age 0.0 . You'd lose Gene Score for all of those 10 lives, but in exchange, your life expectancy drops to 0.
Now assume you spend 10 lives living to Old Age (60). You'd earn +1.2, +1.05, +0.9, and so on and so forth. If you did an 11th Old Age life, you'd earn +0.
Now assume you spend 10 lives SID'ing instantly. You'd lose -1.2, -1.05, -0.9, and so on and so forth. If you did an 11th instant-SID, you'd lose -0.

See what's happening? Because your Gene Score is calculated using your last 10 lives, you are fixed in the amount of Gene score that YOU inherently can give yourself. You can never get higher than 10 Old Age's worth in a row of Gene Score, and you can never lose higher than 10 SID's worth in a row of Gene Score.

Everyone on the server, who understood what was going on, was actually being an 'Altruist'. SID yourself 10 times, and you only hurt your score, temporarily. Live 10 lives back to back reaching Old Age, and you'd give your entire family +1.2, +1.05, etc. etc. While there was no way to give YOURSELF a higher Gene score, the system allowed players to give everyone around them higher Gene Fitness, 'taking a brief hit' in the short run. In exchange, they hoped that others would do it too, and eventually everyone's score would rise up the ranks.

Thus, 200+, 560+ Gene Fitness before Jason decided to reset.

Jason has changed it back to Fitness Score, as the main aggregate for comparing your current age to, since Life Expectancy could be too easily manipulated with SIDs. However, I do not necessarily agree with us going back to the 60-cap system. I also do not think that it will actually tackle the issue that plagued the 2nd Version of the Gene calculator.

Here's the formulas, Jason's newest one, and Gene Calculator version #3.5, the one I think that we should be using:

#1 Original Fitness calculation:
Ae - FSh / 50
Ae - Age of each player
FSh - Fitness Score of host (you)
Score cap: 60

#2 Previous Fitness calculation:
Ae - LEe / 50
Ae - Age of each player
LEe - Life Expectancy of each player
Score cap: Unrestricted

#3 Current Fitness calculation: (Wondible's suggestion)
Ae - FSe / 50
Ae - Age of each player
FSe - Fitness Score of each player
Score cap: 60

#3.5 Proposed Fitness calculation: (My suggestion)
Ae - FSe* / 50
Ae - Age of each player
FSe* - Fitness Score of each player, with conditions:

Dying of Old Age (60) caps Fitness Score at 50.
Minimum value of Fitness Score is 20.

Score cap: Unrestricted

Why? What's the benefit of #3.5 over #3?

- Gene Score was far more interesting when the Gene Fitness Leaderboard was not capped. People fighting over who could get closest to 60 became stale, while version #2 made people climb the Leaderboard because the accelerator was constantly being pumped due to SID Altruism.
- Not once did anyone a negative Gene Score, due to the SID Altruism, and the fact that you could never tank your own score hard enough. The "Minimum Score value 20" means that players SID'ing or dying at Age 1-20 will ALWAYS lose Gene Score, making Negative values possible (but still a relative challenge).
- Constantly living to Old Age (60) would be the primary way to climb the Gene Fitness Score, since Old Age would reduce a Gene score of 50+ to exactly 50. A more controlled, slower climb up the Leaderboard.
- In the new systems #3 and #3.5, high Leaderboard rankings would be very disaster-prone; if a player had 120 Gene Score and tried to SID/got abandoned, they would instantly lose ~2.00 Gene score.
- As such, Veterans would be ridiculously incentivized to never give up on a town, unless they were willing to sacc their Gene score to not play. SID would become a tool primarily for low-Gene/New players.

Closing thoughts:

In about a week, maybe two, we'll have somewhere between 80-160 players all within Gene Score 58.5 and 60 competing to be #1. Version #3 does not actually address the SID Altruism; the victims will still take a hit, but they will still be able to "give away" gene score.

The flux in the Leadeboard's top players will be so constant, that no one will really care about being on the top, making it the truest "meme score" since its implementation.

P.S.

After further discussion, it looks like Version #3 is actually a percentage delta of progress towards Gene Score 60 between all players, so there isn't actually a way to push a lot of people without having a TERRIBLE Gene Score. The SID Altruism can still be a thing, but someone will have to really bite the bullet hard to get it to work well for everyone else. Scratch the prediction of being being in a 1.5 range of 58.5 and 60; it'll probably still happen but...variables will determine how well that works.

Last edited by Wuatduhf (2020-01-17 03:21:16)

testo · 2020-01-17 03:19:00

Are you kidding me? we go back to 30 for 6 slots? With family speciality? HAHA cya not soon BS2.

DestinyCall · 2020-01-17 04:18:24

I hate tool slots with a burning passion. I hate genetic score because it want to be relevant so badly it holds my tool slots as ransom. I hate race restrictions more than tool slots and genetic score combined. At this rate, I am going to just hate playing OHOL.

Maybe I should just go be a hermit on a low pop server for a while. I want to raise my kids and interact with other villages, but I can't handle all these BS mechanics.

Legs · 2020-01-17 04:33:40

People are gradually learning to work around family specialization. It's a pain in the ass and completely unnecessary but it can work. Tool slots can work too. The problem with tool slots is that they reset so frequently, and increasing gene score is solely based on playtime. If I could live to 60 every life and mostly bypass tool slots from day 1 it would be no problem.

The issue is that I have to grind for 20 hours just to do the bare minimum 13-14 tool slots. New updates to the system are only geared towards making that grind harder and more RNG based. It's shackling good players and putting the key in the hands of bad ones. It wants you to save everyone but then it puts a hard lock on making that possible. You can't save the town without tool slots and you can't have tool slots without saving the town. It's stupid.

DestinyCall · 2020-01-17 05:05:16

Legs wrote:

Tool slots can work too. The problem with tool slots is that they reset so frequently, and increasing gene score is solely based on playtime. If I could live to 60 every life and mostly bypass tool slots from day 1 it would be no problem.

That doesn't sound like tool slots are actually working as intended. You are saying that tool slots wouldn't be so bad if they never mattered and could be largely ignored without grinding genetic score.

That sounds like the challenge posed by limited tool slots isn't fun. Like they are only tolerable because a high genetic score raises your slot count high enough that you aren't being limited at all.

Why have tool slots at all? What purpose does it serve except to make the game less enjoyable for new players and casual players who don't have enough free time to compete for highest meme score?

Legs · 2020-01-17 05:25:20

You're half right. I understand the intention behind tool slots and genetic score: to make you care about your family. In a sense it does that. We're discouraged from abandoning babies and encouraged to support our town.

The problem is that it disables us from going that. With 14 tool slots I can make my outfit, doctor others, smith tools, make compost, bake, run the well etc everything that needs done to leave a town better than I found it. With a couple other people making clothes and rubber or whatever the town can be successful. The problem is that there are SO few productive players that the couple of them are breaking backs to support two dozen leeches. With restricted tool use it's not even possible.

My last life I was in a 3-family town using newcomen and producing all the rubber they needed. It was still a struggle because out of the 30 people only a handful were productive at handling serious problems. A brown guy fetching latex, a black guy getting sulfer, a white lady running the well. Without multiple key players it breaks down FAST. Nevermind how they're going to transition to diesel.

DestinyCall · 2020-01-17 05:40:59

I thought the goal for tool slots was to encourage you to ask other people to do stuff, instead of doing everything yourself. In a way, it is "successful" at punishing players who want to do it all. I'm just curious if anyone actually enjoys the restrictions imposed by tool slots. I haven't really seen anyone reporting fun or cool stories about how tool slots brought them closer to other players and created interesting stories.

In my own experience working with limited tool slots, it just feels very limiting and frustrating. I have changed my play-style to avoid using tools or helping other people with jobs that require tools unless I feel it is absolutely necessary. If I see that the fire burned down to coals, I look at it and I try to remember if I have already learned "hot coals" in this life. If not, I don't want to waste a tool slot to save the fire. And I'm definitely not going to waste three tool slots to learn "hatchet", "fire bow", and "hot coals" if the fire goes out completely. That's going to be someone else's problem, not mine. If I see someone baking a large number of pies or working the kiln, firing a bunch of pottery, I don't jump in to help them finish their task, because I don't want to learn "adobe oven" or "adobe kiln" unless I absolutely have to. I'm upset if I accidentally learn a tool I wasn't expecting, because I know it will limit my options later in life. I really hate when I spend a long time trying to finish a project and toward the end of my life, I realize that I can't actually finish the job due to the arbitrary tool slot limitation. I'll think back to that time I used "needle and thread" to make a hat for my baby or that time I used "charcoal pencil" to make a scrap bowl to recycle a broken tool and wonder why I didn't make a better choice.

My genetic score raises each life, but I haven't played that much since the last score reset, so every time I play, I have six or seven tool slots. I could max out my slots within the first fifteen minutes of my life, if I didn't constantly monitor my tool usage. Yet I am not having any more fun do to overcoming this "challenge". It is just a constant nagging annoyance that I have to deal with every single life while trying to not let it get in my way too much. Sometimes, I think about killing myself early so I can reset my tool slots. I really hate this system.

Legs · 2020-01-17 05:55:43

Especially with family specialization key processes are bottlenecked. I'm more used to playing with the default 6-7 slots. Realistically towns lowkey struggle even with one person doing everything. I'm born with no available clothing. So I try to make some. There are no carrots. There's no soil. Now I'm learning the shovel to make compost. The hoe to plant carrots. The shears to make clothing. This all in the basics of childhood. Imagine there are no shears and I have to learn smithing too. That's using all my tool slots and I'm lucky if I have enough.

Now everything else is down to noobs that struggle to make fire. The productive function of the town becomes a birth machine biding time until another decent player joins.

I have a strong grasp on the basics and bootstrapping primitive towns but it's just so pointless and difficult in the current game that I let myself starve even as late game eve. Top 100 players and it's pointless. No point wasting everyone's time.

Dodge · 2020-01-17 06:14:48

DestinyCall wrote:

Why have tool slots at all? What purpose does it serve except to make the game less enjoyable for new players and casual players who don't have enough free time to compete for highest meme score?

If everyone can smith then who is the smith?

What value do you have for your village in this life?

That's right, none

You are worthless

Without tool slots you dont have any perk or disadvantage.

You are replacable

Every other villager could do the same as you

When you die you will just be another pile of bones

I'm exagerating here but i hope you see my point

PS. Saying that you are valuable because you as a player knows how to smith is just a bad argument based on a flaw in the game, even first day noobs should be able to smith right away.

Every life is a new one and you are born as a baby, a new soul, past knowledge from previous lives should not make you more important for your civilisation a more important member of society, what you do in your current life should though.

Also i agree you shouldn't need to grind the score to get more slots, it should be based on organic play, if you play good, care about family etc you should get more tools without needing to grind.

DestinyCall · 2020-01-17 06:28:05

I don't have a problem with being replaceable. I do have a problem with being useless. And that's what it feels like to run out of tool slots when there's work to be done.

Dodge · 2020-01-17 06:46:48

DestinyCall wrote:

I don't have a problem with being replaceable. I do have a problem with being useless. And that's what it feels like to run out of tool slots when there's work to be done.

yeah but what do you mean by "work to be done"?

shouldn't someone else do that work?

Is it normal that one single player can or has to do everything in a village?

The only reason it feels this way is because what else can you do in a life besides crafting?

Not much right? So then you get bored and blame the damn tool slots for ruining your game

If there was something else to do, another layer to the game then it wouldn't be an issue.

BUT i understand that with how the game is currently it can be frustrating to feel limited for no reason that improves your experience of the game.

You're not wrong if you look at it with the current dynamic, we share everything and posessions are worthless so you being able to smith over someone else doesn't matter at all since the hoe you make will be free to take for anyone, it's not like you can exchange that hoe for food, it wouldn't even make any sense since food is everywhere free to take, so if there is no risk for your life then you cant have less risk since there is none in the first place, so you cant trade that hoe for a better chance of survival since you are not strugling for survival in the first place, hence your hoe and smithing skills are worthless.

See where i'm trying to get here?

Punkypal · 2020-01-17 08:37:48

Wuatduhf wrote:

If you read these forums there's no way you haven't already seen the recent dev changes on the server back-end for how Gene Fitness now works.

I guess I'll prove you wrong on this point. I've no idea where this has been posted. I didn't see it before and I can't find it now.

Can someone direct me towards where this change is discussed/explained?

DestinyCall · 2020-01-17 09:16:59

Dodge wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
I don't have a problem with being replaceable. I do have a problem with being useless. And that's what it feels like to run out of tool slots when there's work to be done.
yeah but what do you mean by "work to be done"?
shouldn't someone else do that work?

No. I want to do the work. It's my work. Why would I want someone else to do my work? It's the only thing that is truly my own. Asking someone else to do it for me feels like failure. It feels like giving up and letting someone else do what I wanted to do myself. I don't get that sense of accomplishment for a job well done. That warm happy feeling for a task finished to my satisfaction. When someone else does the work, it is easy ... but empty. I don't own the results. All I did was ask for help and stand around like a useless lump - someone else did the actual work.

Of course, all of that is assuming I can find anyone to do the job. After all, I'm usually working because I think something needs to be done and no one else is doing it already. If I want to get someone else to do the work for me, first I have to convince them it is worth doing. If the job is easy or obviously beneficial to the village, that's not very hard (most of the time). But if my current job is complex or weird or potentially dangerous, it is a lot harder to get someone else involved without a lot of explanation. Sometimes I don't want to explain why I need a dead domestic goose. I just want one. Stop asking so many questions, okay?

...

Bottom line, I don't really care if I can do EVERYTHING in the village. That's not the problem. I have no problem finding something to do with my life to make it unique and different from previous lives. But I very much want to be able to do what I need to be able to accomplish my personal goals. If I have decided that I'm going to dedicate my life to making a kick-ass red dress, I don't want limited tool slots to prevent me from achieving my goal because I forgot to keep one slot open for "hot coals" and now I can't dye the dress I spent my whole childhood crafting. I have dedicated my life to the construction of this dress. It is unfair that I can't finish the project I spent forty years of my life working on because I stopped to help Tom the baker load a turkey into the oven and I chopped down some trees when I was a teenager. I shouldn't be forced to allow someone else to do the final step I've worked so hard to reach. It is insulting. It is my work. It matters to ME. I want to be the one to do it.

...

There are many ways that Jason could have encouraged people to share the workload with other villagers. And there are other ways to reward players for specializing their life's work in a particular profession, instead of being jack-of-all-trade generalists every single life. I have my own ideas on how it could be achieved using professional titles, among other things. My point is that the current implementation of tool slots is a brute force method of FORCING player interaction that creates frustrating and punishing in-game experiences instead of rewarding people for spending time in a particular trade and interacting with other specialists. I don't think it is working as intended and I don't think it fits into the current game. It's a bad mechanic.

Dodge · 2020-01-17 10:00:11

It only feels forced because you where used to be able to do every job in the world and then got restricted, but realistically it's not possible to be smith+tailor+farmer+engineer+baker etc.

But i get it it's a game and irl logic doesn't always apply

Anyway about that red dress: "If I have decided that I'm going to dedicate my life to making a kick-ass red dress"

then what's the problem?

You ask the sheppard for the yarn then make the dress yourself as tailor and in exchange you give some clothes to the sheppard.

I know it doesn't make sense in the current game but try to picture a village where everyone has their own house and job and exchanges with each other.

Legs · 2020-01-17 17:15:06

Dodge wrote:

yeah but what do you mean by "work to be done"?
shouldn't someone else do that work?

Realistically regardless of should or should not, they CAN'T do that work. You try to give people jobs and they don't know how. I pass my apron off to a kid, he doesn't know how to doctor. My daughter asks me "JOB?" and I ask her to bake. She doesn't know how. Even before getting into advanced stuff like newcomen machining, basic smithing is fairly complicated for new players. Making charcoal, refining the ore, creating and using different tools. Bellows, hammer, tongs, chisel, file. You know, a lot of people don't even bother to play the tutorial. A lot of players really don't know how to do any productive work at all. They're just existing and eating berries and trying to figure out how to play the game.

Dodge wrote:

realistically it's not possible to be smith+tailor+farmer+engineer+baker etc.

Realistically, a lot of people have more than one job in their lifetime. Maybe you spend a year working in a factory. Maybe you spent a summer working at a bakery in college. Maybe you got your first job getting paid under the table at your uncle's farm. A lot of people have had 5 different jobs already by the time they're 30. Not a profession, just a job. Baking a couple of pies shouldn't mean that's all you can ever do with your life.

DestinyCall · 2020-01-17 17:29:43

Dodge wrote:

You ask the sheppard for the yarn then make the dress yourself as tailor and in exchange you give some clothes to the sheppard.

I'm not sure how much experience you have with making fancy clothing, but unless he provides me with a whole lot of yarn, I'm not going to have any cloth left over to pay off the shepherd when I finish making my red dress. It takes 12 fleece to make one roll of cloth. So I'd need to get 24 fed sheep worth of yarn to make my red dress and a set of fancy clothing for the shepherd. I hope he is a hard-working shepherd, because that's a whole lot of poop. I suppose I could make him a top hat instead, since that only costs two fleece. But that feels like a job for a milliner and I'm a dress-maker. Completely different thing.

Dodge wrote:

I know it doesn't make sense in the current game but try to picture a village where everyone has their own house and job and exchanges with each other.

Sounds like an interesting game. I wouldn't mind trying it out. Perhaps tool slots belong in that game, instead of OHOL.

But from what you have said, I don't think the current tool slots system is really what you would want in that game either, because this system would be perfectly happy with me being a lumberjack/baker/shepherd/tailor/dyer ... IF I had eight tool slots unlocked already. But since I only have seven tool slots, I am prevented from coloring my dress because that's a bridge too far. For me. Not for someone who has unlocked eight tool slots, but definitely too many tools for me to handle with my weak-ass genes.

The current system does not require you to choose a profession and focus on providing other people with the fruits of your labor. In fact, if you play the genetic score mini-game long enough, you don't even need to specialize yourself at all. You will have ample slots to do everything you could possibly want in one life and no pressure to keep track of your tool usage. You aren't forced to interact with anyone your whole life.

Problem solved, I guess?

Last edited by DestinyCall (2020-01-17 19:16:52)

jasonrohrer · 2020-01-17 20:06:40

Wuatduhf, the issue is way bigger than altruism

The people on the TOP of the leaderboard had very low average life expectancies.

In studying what they were doing, by using /DIE to keep their own average low, they were able to farm points from the occasional 60+ lives that they lived.

So they weren't just "taking one for the team" by giving other people points, but also boosting their own score by doing this.

If your average lifespan is low, doing SIDs 9x in a row loses you very few points. Then living to 60 twice gains back the lost points, plus extra points, without raising your average too much. Repeating this process for infinite score. And of course, on top of this, you are boosting the score of others.

Having unlimited scores is also messy because it makes it hard to map scores to benefits nicely.

jasonrohrer · 2020-01-17 20:09:26

In your example, don't live to 60 ten lives in a row. Lives to 60 only 2 lives in a row, then SIDs 10 lives in a row.

Wuatduhf · 2020-01-17 21:28:47

jasonrohrer wrote:

In your example, don't live to 60 ten lives in a row. Lives to 60 only 2 lives in a row, then SIDs 10 lives in a row.

The net result would still be the same, you designed the system to lose equal points for going down and gain equal points for going up.

Having exactly 0 Life Expectancy from 10 lives, and then living to 60 twice, would raise that LE to 12. SID'ing 10 times in a row again would cause the player to lose Gene Score 10 times in a row, each is less than the 60 yes, but added up? They would (SHOULD) total the same amount. Unless the game was performing the arithmetic incorrectly, the delta would have been 0. That's the reason that I use the example of living to 60x10, and then 0x10, there is no actual way to game the system to advantage yourself, only to advantage everyone around you in your family.

Quite simply, everyone that had been doing the SID lives, and thought they were cheating, was actually ignorant of the math, OR was intentionally doing it to increase everyone else's Gene Score, which in turn leads to people living longer/having more tools, which in turn would result to everyone else also living longer.

It eventually becomes a self-feeding cycle, of people being able to live longer and longer, to the point that everyone is in the 100's.

Last edited by Wuatduhf (2020-01-17 21:30:07)

DestinyCall · 2020-01-17 21:43:42

Genetic score is weird.

Wuatduhf · 2020-01-18 01:50:44

HUZZAH.

Since my writing apparently isn't good enough to explain what's going on with the numbers, I've pulled out a handy-dandy chart on Google Spreadsheets!

As you can see above, I have two special columns on the right: Δ Gene Score and Σ Gene score. Respectively, these represent the change in the player's Gene Fitness, and the sum of all changes in Gene Fitness up to that point.

As you can see, every time the player lives to an Age, it impacts the Life Expectancy. I start with 10 instant-SIDs to represent a perfectly-0 starting point.

From there, you can work your way down thru each life and see that the Life Expectancy changes as it re-calculates based on the PAST 10 lives, not including the life you just lived, to see how you fared.

No matter how high, how low, how infrequently you live to Old Age vs. SID'ing, there is literally no physical way that you can extract additional Gene Score from the system that you cannot gain/lose by living to different years.

Every player starts at 30 Gene Score. The maximum Gene Score you can get is from 10 60's in a row, which will put you at +6.60, or 36.60. However, because every player had a different Life Expectancy when version #2 was implemented to the game, technically every player had an uneven "Starting position", which affected how high they could climb right out the gate.

I hope this graph and my explanation here have finally put this argument to bed that players were somehow Cheating Jason's system. They literally were not.

Last edited by Wuatduhf (2020-01-18 01:56:44)

pein · 2020-01-18 04:08:45

limitations aren't good if you can't overcome them
in an rpg you would have skill points

you choose where to put them then specialize on it
the problem in ohol is that you can't specialize since the tech tree is small and the excess products can't be sold

duels are also bad, I seen a game where you had the duel skills mixed with work skills and was good, you could duel and get money and xp that way, but then you couldn't work as effectively
or work and duel less effectively didn't mean you can't duel at all
and since we got an intention-based combat system, makes even less sense that as you get older, you get no chance to kill griefers

also the tools are weird
you can use a hatchet but can't figure out how axe works? same thing really
never used hatchet after this change, even on eve camps I ask people to do it for me
but that can be so hard when people are other family members or idiots

saving the fire is teaching you hot coals
cutting the lasso teaching you the lasso
digging out a bush teaching you the stakes

file, saw, drill, they don't really make sense to use up a whole slot
or knitting needles
I could imagine you make carts and use adze saw and froe mallet
or making floors you use shovel stakes axe

it's not like others do it for you, if you are naked as a toddler, you need the thread
then you need to make compost, save the fire, get firewood
no fun allowed
meanwhile griefers pick up a knife at 8 and murder you cause you can't do shit about it

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[Discussion] The new Genetic Fitness calculator doesn't fix the issue

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