Jason's Murder Problem Thread

teanah · 2018-04-15 21:08:49

Zwilnik wrote:

Or simply use it to spawn serial killers/griefers on their own as males, far, far from civilisation for a fixed period of real time (say 24 hours or more) or until they complete a monument or similar task that shows they can play the game constructively (or just until they’ve broken 100 rocks )

I suggested spawning them as eves (So they won't be a baby born to a village they can then trash) but I love this idea more.
Spawning as a lonely unfertile guy, they can still play the game but won't interact with any other players until they accomplish XYZ task as penance (Maybe there should be a few tasks? Complete one of these to rejoin civilization: Harvest 50 carrots, make a full set of clothes, survive to 60 etc). It's like being banished from the village until you can show you can be a contributing member of society again.

We are being reincarnated constantly after all, some kind of Karma could be an interesting addition... Maybe really bad griefers could live out a life as one of those soil pit worms, play a snake mini-game for an hour (this is a joke.)

powa · 2018-04-15 21:13:49

Potjeh wrote:

Karma system, each kill you lose a point. *Zero* passive karma regeneration. To get a karma point another player has to use an item on you, something like a medal. It should be an item that requires moderate effort to make, but is accessible to low tech so Eve can reward her kids. The point is that it shouldn't be easily spammable, so not only is regaining it hard for griefers, but it also makes it possible to meaningfully thank someone who has been of great help. Maybe also a negative karma item, to punish bad kids without resorting to murder. Karma would be visible to anyone, so if you get low karma by being an ass you'll be doomed to play as Eve forever because nobody will raise you. Conversely, good karma will get you prioritized over other babies, because everyone wants a helpful player in town.

If a player can give karma without losing it, a pair of people can artificially restore and raise their karma scores in a "I scratch your back, you scratch mine" situation, even if neither really deserve it. So there should be no net gain in karma when giving karma.

So you should lose a point of karma whenever incrementing someone else's.

There would always be advanced players who will game the system to maximize their ability to raise their own karma scores, even if they must do it jointly. We shouldn't be encouraging people to maximize their ability to give karma via crafting or anything like that anyways.

But there also has to be a downside to decrement karma. Otherwise you could grief someone even easier. So decreasing someone's karma should decrease your own.

So then karma on the whole should be lost through peer interaction. This also encourages people to use their influence wisely.

An easy solution to the peer-to-peer karma vacuum is to have slow karma regeneration (like one point a day, or every few lives). I think this is also most fair, so that people get multiple chances to come back to decent standing but only with time.

suzanbones · 2018-04-15 21:26:32

Ideas to capture killers

Lasso
Use a Lasso on a slowed killer to capture him. Lasso's are easy to make and the 'police' can carry them around. Since they can only be used on slowed killers, a killer can't use it to capture villagers and let them starve. Someone who is captured with a lasso can't walk or use any items. Others can still feed him/her if they want. He can be freed when clicked on by the player who captured him.

As a punishment the town could just leave him stuck in the lasso and feed him so he can't respawn. Kinda like being in jail. Someone who exits the game/disconnects while being stuck in a lasso could get an hour ban so he/she will have a consequent for his/her action. Or we could use Zwilnik idea and they spawn as male in the wilderness and have to break a 100 rocks before they can spawn as eve or baby.

Names
Not sure if it's a bug or a feature right now, but I noticed that when I was stabbed I could no longer see either names or relationships. If the stabbed person can still see names, at least he can tell the name of the killer before he/she dies. In real life all people look different. In game we mostly look the same. Yelling that the killer is wearing a red shirt isn't helping cause he/she will just switch shirts. (Know this from experience) With a name we have a better chance to get the culprit.

To fully let this work, everyone needs a name. Sadly, it happens that a mother does not name her child. Maybe the system can generate a random name for a player without one the moment it can no longer be picked up by his/her mother due to being to old.

Ideas against/repair Griefing

chest with key(s)
A chest that when created gives the creator a key. We have keys in real life for a reason. If he wants he can make copies of this key and give to other town members. You need to think carefully to who you give the key. You can store the high lvld tools in this chest to try and keep it away from grievers. if you want to use it, you would have to ask someone who has the key.

remove seeds
This one has been opted before by someone else, but I just put it here as well. It would be nice to have the ability to remove wrongly placed seeds. I've watched Joriom stream and one trick he did was constantly destroy farms by planting wheat seeds.

no unlimited wheat seeds
What I also noticed on the stream is that wheat produces unlimited seeds. That makes it even easier for the griever to get those seeds to plant them. Joriom just walked back and forth from the same wheat plant. The griever could even just plant one wheat plant in the farm, wait ill it matures and then use that one plant to plant wheat seeds everywhere.

Lily · 2018-04-15 21:46:15

Personally I liked the Ultima Online approach. In that game if you killed someone you highlighted grey for a short time, which is already in this game in the form of blood stained weapons. If you killed five people you highlighted red and last far longer, which for this game we can just mark you in some way as a murderer. The thing is however, you could work down your kills based on your time online. So if you played 10 years or whatever, you kill count would fall down to 4 and you are no longer marked. If you kill one person you are marked again. If you wait long enough without killing you are basically getting a fresh start again.

In this case, if we put a mark on someone after they killed X people, then we know they are a murderer. It doesn't effect police, because they are unlikely to kill enough people to hit the threshold. Then we have your murder count decay, say by 1 per hour. That way if you kill one person every 2 lives, you will never get the mark. If we make X, something like 5, then you could kill 4 people in a single life without any repercussions.

Also instead of this banning people from playing murderers, it more gives them an incentives to take a break once in a while. If you play a few normal games in between your killing sprees, there is no real penalty. It only hits people who murder people every game.

Alternatively, if you are feeling generous, instead of a mark you can make them spawn as an Eve far from everyone. No matter how often they kill them selves they will never spawn as a child near other people, until they 'work off their time'. In that case, playing as Eve isn't even really a punishment, it is part of the game. So people can kill as many people as they want but for the next life they need to play as an Eve away from people, and killing yourself a bunch of times doesn't get you out of it.

Zwilnik · 2018-04-15 21:49:15

The problem with spawning as an eve is that unless you specifically make them barren, innocent players can be born to them as babies and share their punishment and/or be griiefed by them.

Christoffer · 2018-04-15 21:59:47

Zwilnik wrote:

The problem with spawning as an eve is that unless you specifically make them barren, innocent players can be born to them as babies and share their punishment and/or be griiefed by them.

I agree with this. I think that a serial murderer should receive the Mark of Cain and spawn as a Cain in the next life, i.e. a grown male in the wilderness. To remove the mark of Cain, you have to live a whole life until 60 (which is a bit of a challenge in the wilderness, and requires that you sustain yourself buy actually playing the game as intended). If living to 60 proves too difficult, then 120 minutes of gameplay as Cain could also wipe the mark.

You would get the mark of Cain if you kill more than one person within 60 minutes of gameplay. If you kill many, you could receive more than one mark that you would have to wash away by spending several lives as Cain.

OxPower · 2018-04-15 22:04:32

Some of you guys seem to not get the real issue, murder isn't a problem, its the fact that you can destroy a village without ever holding a knife. Also surviving to 60 in the wild is very easy. Not a pissing contest just being honest.

Potjeh · 2018-04-15 22:15:59

Should have double or triple hunger drain rate as Cain then.

Auner · 2018-04-15 22:28:12

OxPower wrote:

Some of you guys seem to not get the real issue, murder isn't a problem, its the fact that you can destroy a village without ever holding a knife.

Straight up truth- yeah some times a killer comes in and the town loses a person or so-- tbh bears are a bigger problem than killers right now.

There's 10 ways i can think of to demolish a civ far faster than it takes to make a knife.

Also tbh- a jail wouldn't be effective cause you can just quit and restart.

What would be cool- is if we could brand animals-- and use it on people. It would make an interesting system- while it's easy to blame someone else and kill again in the name of 'protection' you could still be branded. Generally this allows the player to keep playing but warns people.

Course it could be used for evil too

Last edited by Auner (2018-04-15 22:28:28)

nategate2020 · 2018-04-15 22:28:27

I don't think many of these solutions address the necessity to commit a defensible homicide in the game, i.e. defending your village from attack. I personally think a Karma system goes against the nature of the game. We should only have the items at hand when we are born and what we can make.

Kinrany · 2018-04-15 22:32:56

jasonrohrer wrote:

Also, hit points don't change anything.
They make it harder to murder, but also harder to kill griefers.
Same with armor or whatever. And how would more weapons help? Or making every tool deadly?
All those things would help murderers as much as town guards.

I'd hate to attack a strawman, but it seems you're assuming that the side with the most "power" wins.

The fight between griefers and police is very asymmetric. Like in Werewolf, police would win easily if they knew in advance whether someone is or isn't a griefer. The knowledge propagates differently, but the general principle is the same.
(And if griefers are actually able to kill everyone, that's not griefing, that's conquest.)

Time is on the police's side. (Well, except that time spent policing is time not spent growing carrots.)
Hit points give the police time to coordinate. Too many hit points will let the griefer cause too much damage in other ways, but two hit points is obviously better than one.
Making tools deadly will mean that everyone is armed at all times, which means that the villagers can help the police out-damage the griefers.

Most changes would give "power" to everyone, not only the good guys, but saying that this means that making changes of this kind is pointless seems like a fallacy. If you give each player a bullet, but one player has a gun while the other has a slingshot, then you know the outcome in advance.

Note that I'm not advocating for any of these specific solutions.

mrfox · 2018-04-15 22:35:35

I support the idea of a 'murderers mark' IF combined with these concepts.

1. Murderers are marked in a way which scales with multiple murders and decays over a long period.
2. There is a weapon item (a baton?) which does not kill but does knock items out of the targets hands and slow them. This could also be used as a weapon of grief it's true.

This way it is possible to police a village without murdering. If you do murder then you are marked across lives. When police murder IRL we lose trust in them. This would be replicated in the game - sometimes police might murder and it would be up to them to convince a settlement to trust them to police with the mark. This create some interesting social dynamics. It's normal for citizens to be wary of police or military. It's normal for jobs which involve holding a monopoly on violence to tread a somewhat fine line between criminality and justice.

Last edited by mrfox (2018-04-15 22:37:44)

Strathos · 2018-04-15 22:38:18

The problem with murderers might be the general apathy towards them. When a murder occurs, players who see it usually stand by unable to do anything. They don't have a weapon nor do they know how to craft one. They carry on and just hope they won't be the next one to get killed.
When pushed, meek folk can turn into a furious mob, though. If angry enough, anything within reach could become a weapon and things like smithing hammers, hatchets, axes and shafts would be grabbed to make justice.

This is how it could work:
A murder is comited.
The usual slowdown and staggering victim happens.
Select items can be used to retaliate.
The offending player can be briefly stun if hit by these weaponized tools (with a cooldown before being able to hit again with them).
The murderer gets killed if enough players (3 or 4?) manage to stun-lock them.
The murderer can get away if their slowdown time runs out.

This would also give peaceful folk a chance to defend themselves against raiders and an oppressive police (they'll probably all die, though).

Ideally town-guards would take care of murderers. The thing is it's much easier to craft a single weapon and use it than get people organized enough to defend a town.

Last edited by Strathos (2018-04-15 23:09:45)

Christoffer · 2018-04-15 22:43:56

OxPower wrote:

Some of you guys seem to not get the real issue, murder isn't a problem, its the fact that you can destroy a village without ever holding a knife. Also surviving to 60 in the wild is very easy. Not a pissing contest just being honest.

It's not about difficulty. It takes time to live a full life, and in the wilderness you can't murder more people. It's a lifetime sentence, if you will

I agree that murder is not a problem, but reincarnating serial killers might be one. In any case, it's the topic of this thread. There are other threads dealing with other topics.

Kinrany · 2018-04-15 22:48:19

Heredity: people are not clean slate. Children of someone who lives in a rich village are likely to be less violent. In other words, if your death was violent or you killed a lot of people, then you're less likely to be born to a mother that is close to lots of cool stuff.

Edit: I think it's important to reframe the problem. It's not about good players and bad players, it's about weak players being able to disproportionately harm strong players.

Last edited by Kinrany (2018-04-15 22:50:38)

fragilityh14 · 2018-04-15 22:49:30

i also agree that to a great extent murder is supposed to be part of how the game works. For example, ambushing a person in the woods with a cart of tools and stealing it is well within the period of the game (though still generally being an asshole). And really, if you're ambushing someone with an arrow in the woods it should be an easy kill.

People intentionally planting mass wheat or blocking things with construction (for its own sake) is more of a problem of abusing the mechanics just to mess with people.

And seriously, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. I mean, in any cooperative game you CAN screw over your own team. For example, in a first person shooter you can massacre your team at the spawn point. It's within the mechanics of the game, and isn't a flaw that it's possible. In most strategy games there are ways to misuse/waste resources. There is no good reason to do these things.

Honestly though, since this is supposed to be a social experiment, how to deal with terrible people is clearly part of it. The few people here like Jorion who try to justify what they're doing as "necessary" are clearly just awful and enjoy inflicting misery for its own sake. Such is life.

Strathos · 2018-04-15 22:55:06

Other suggestions regarding player killing:

Fresh graves could be recognizable by name (not that important now that there's death-staggering). It'd be akin of recognizing a cadaver. Could help when the killer tries to BS their way out of it.

Murdering kills you inside. Murderers' faces turn expressionless with subsequent killings.

The more a player murders, the lower their slowdown time lasts (the slowdown being interpreted as the shock of killing another person). Only murdered people that are able to grab weapons count towards reducing the slowdown time. Maybe increase the initial slowdown time a bit.

Last edited by Strathos (2018-04-15 23:25:11)

Xuhybrid · 2018-04-15 22:58:18

Each murder takes karma and every life where you die at 60 gives back that karma. Anyone playing the game legit and dealing with griefers is going to have positive karma.

Lexyvil · 2018-04-15 23:20:11

OxPower wrote:

Some of you guys seem to not get the real issue, murder isn't a problem, its the fact that you can destroy a village without ever holding a knife. Also surviving to 60 in the wild is very easy. Not a pissing contest just being honest.

I'm sure people know the differences between Murdering and Griefing. Murdering is now much less of a problem with the adjustments that have been made, but the latter so far is what seems to be unavoidable at times.

At least few changes had been made to make destroying the environment harder, such as how it requires more effort to dig up bushes since a recent update.

Last edited by Lexyvil (2018-04-15 23:26:02)

Verinon1 · 2018-04-15 23:38:02

Strathos wrote:

Other suggestions regarding player killing:
Fresh graves could be recognizable by name (not that important now that there's death-staggering). It'd be akin of recognizing a cadaver. Could help when the killer tries to BS their way out of it.
Murdering kills you inside. Murderers' faces turn expressionless with subsequent killings.
https://dl.dropbox.com/s/xi579xw2ieecp03/deadeyes.png
The more a player murders, the lower their slowdown time lasts (the slowdown being interpreted as the shock of killing another person). Only murdered people that are able to grab weapons count towards reducing the slowdown time. Maybe increase the initial slowdown time a bit.

I like that idea.

Sakkiyn · 2018-04-15 23:50:17

In foxhole as a player you gain commendation points for mining scrap and making materials which also get you levels. You as a player can give a "commend" to other players who help out. These commends will give you rank, corporal, sergeant. lieutenant and so on. You used to be able to use commends to take away points as well.

Maybe something like that. A player earns karma for growing carrots (planting, watering, picking) making tools and other positive things, maybe also points for raising a child to mature (eating) age. Then you can spend these karma points to give positive or negative karma to other players.

Have a look at the foxhole commend system. It might be a viable system that only adds a title or "rank". The ranks in foxhole are just used to determine how many commends a player has received and does nothing else in game.

Negative karma could get you ranks like bully, trickster, conman, thief, criminal, killer, murderer and the like while good karma could give you things like man at arms, guardsman, knight, and maybe noble titles eventually such as they have in guild3.

jord1990 · 2018-04-15 23:52:04

I agree with the people saying that murder isn't the issue at this point. Murder is actually fine, if you are running a good town someone might get away with murdering 1/maybe 2 people before he gets caught. But as people said the game is designed in a way that doing the wrong things will kill your area very quickly and if a griefer knows what those things are he can destroy an entire town that has been going for generation in about 30 minutes.

Gare22 · 2018-04-15 23:56:36

Maybe force a murderer who has recently died to spawn as an Eve?

ryantm · 2018-04-16 00:13:16

I like Lily's idea in https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … 8845#p8845 but instead of burning off bad karma over time, it could be tied to another issue: there's currently no real incentive to get to age 60. Getting to age 60 could remove one death from your account.

I feel like getting to age 60 would be something really rare for a murderer, but it's pretty common for an experienced player playing nicely.

pein · 2018-04-16 00:33:00

jason, the problem is that characters got 1 hp and weapons got 100% critical, its a point and click game, your current fighting system only requires some bad intention. 90% of killings are unjustified, rest of 10% is mostly overreaction or subjective. Even if i did nothing wrong, i have to be afraid that someone gonna kill me for no reason, and i cant react in any way. You got 10 friends standing around, someone shots you, you die. Normally someone could distract the killer, block it, get away with injuries, others could heal you. Soto counterbalance killings, at least add a shield option: wooden shield, blocks one hit. Framed shield, blocks two hits. Metal shield blocks 3 hits.

The logical thing would be to implement an hp bar. this would allow players to heal somebody if they want to. Also a stabbing or a bow shot shouldnt take all your hp, just like 40-50%, or even better 10 hp bars, similar to hunger, it would grow with age, so killing old people and babies would be easier, coward killers would go for that.
Also naked people could be easier to killed, clothing should stop half of the damage.

Other solution: hunger acting as hp. When stabbed, you would lose half of your hunger bar temporarily, turning red, recovering onee bar half a minute. Your hunger would drop twice as fast, and you would need to eat, stay in ideal temperature to recover. Of course you cant do that if others dont let you.

So if you implement something negative, implement something positive, people can heal you. would require a medicinal plant for example. do they use the plant to save your life, or do they preserve for somebody who were bitten b ya rattlesnake? another thing which is annoying in this game. this would make accidental attacks much better, you can explain yourself and be healed, one people couldnt kill many, they can heal they can feed it.

other thing: instead of killing him, second stab would demobilize for 30 sec, would need a player to help him up, he can still survive by eating from backpack or if gets food fast.

third bar, mental bar, would increase in proximity with others, decrease if alone, would increase twice as fast in opposite genders company, if its low, your vision starts to be blurred

this is sadistically funny but what if each stab would cut down a hand, a leg, the player could not carry baskets with one hand, could not eat without hands, could not walk fast without a leg, could not walk without two legs. could be replaced with a wodden leg or hand with hook. so would require 5 stabs/shots to die. you could recover slowly if others help.

population control is necessary, i dont mind killing but simple bad intention is annoying. with any of this suggestion you could enforce team play and improve the fighting system which now is one sided and you cant philosophize about it as of now.

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