I hate specializations update.

Coconut Fruit · 2020-02-14 03:01:16

I just wanted to say that I miss old ohol, the one without specialization update.

I quitted this game just because of that update, but I played one life yesterday after some months of break. Damn, the town I lived in was insanely big... Just wow, never seen such a big town before.
I think that's because it makes people more likely to go back to already high tech towns, because it's worthless to make new towns where chance to go beyond deep well is unlikely.

Remove this shitty update pls, I miss this game.

Btw, is there anyone else that hates it too, or is it just me?
I also don't like multiracial towns... It's like sharing victory Strong families should thrive, weak should die.

Cmon Jason, make me happy pls.

Last edited by Coconut Fruit (2020-02-14 08:19:10)

TheRubyCart · 2020-02-14 03:35:14

Congratulations, 99% agree with you

jasonrohrer · 2020-02-14 04:53:19

Well, I'm no fan of melting pot towns as a way to "route around" this problem.

Though I haven't see that myself so much. It's not like every town has all three "necessary" skin tones represented.

Instead, I've seen problems that need to be solved through cleverness and determination, when before, there weren't really any such problems.

Having all three live in the same town is at least more interesting and presents more challenges than one know-it-all-player doing everything by themselves to keep the village going. At least now, there has to be some coordination and cooperation.

Here's what I want:

Every life, you should see an obvious problem that needs solving in your village, and not be quite sure how to solve it. And maybe, sometimes, even if you play perfectly, your attempt at a solution to the problem doesn't work out.

Think of it like an emergent quest system. But a quest system with no NPCs. Think of a social puzzle game, but where the "pieces" of the puzzle are intelligent entities with their own individual motivations.

I'm not saying the game is there yet, but that's where I'm trying to go.

Cramming three different skin tones together in one town is a bit of cheat toward solving the social puzzle.

But even that is not that easy to accomplish, right? You might want to attract other families to live in your town, but that doesn't mean they will come. It's a solution that is implemented across many generations, and not just something that one very competent player can do by themselves.

Legs · 2020-02-14 04:57:32

These shoehorned mechanics are rapidly approaching a point where they no longer fit the base game. It's more or less been there since the tool slot update, family specialization, etc. Systems that were never meant to be a part of the game but were awkwardly attached after the fact and really don't work. They're becoming increasingly more broken with every update. I understand the intent but it's something to direct into a new game because it clearly doesn't work here.

jasonrohrer · 2020-02-14 05:04:13

Also, quick VOG survey just now found several one-race towns, and a few 2-race towns, but no 3-race towns that I could find.

Towns are way bigger than they used to be, and that's because families don't die out as fast as before, due to better baby distribution code.

DiscardedSlinky · 2020-02-14 05:16:33

Yep I absolutely hate it too. It's the most anti-fun thing that's ever been in the game. I think it's worse than the rift. There was SO many better ways to impliment it, like:
Make it buffs instead of restrictions
Make items that aren't COMPLETELY vital be restricted per race.
DON'T HAVE US FUCKING DROP STUFF. WHAT LOGIC IS THAT
Give us a way to be able to learn and enter the biomes

It makes me so upset. This whole torn seal shit is TRASH. It basically forces everyone to live in giant bell towns. Trade?? HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO TRADE. We need 9999 tires just to survive, so trading a single cart full doesn't do ANYTHING. ALSO WE CAN'T TALK TO EACH OTHER. It's the most backwards logic. Fucking laziness. If you want us to trade impliment a system for it. If you don't want us climbing the tech tree so fast maybe make some new tech.

Everyone is so bored in giant megacities because that's all we can live in now. Why even try making a new town when you need every single race there to make it a few hours? Oh but you can go get tires from the mega city and bring them back. OR you can just live in the mega city with supplies constantly coming in.

Jason doesn't play. He has no idea what an absolute headache this all is. Yet he dares to make a thread talking about nerfing oil again. It takes me and my friend 2-3 lives to get oil as it is right now. That's with a lot of rubber tires at the ready. If we had to beg different races to go get the supplies for rubber it would take 5. So many people do not understand what a knife and bucket mean when you put it next to them. I can't talk to them, so I just need to keep trying it with every brown person I see. Why don't I use notes? That is 2 tool slots down the fucking drain. If I'm trying to make oil I need every single one of them just to get ready for it. Making pipes is my entire slot inventory. Even after you get everything to be ready you have to be born Ginger so say goodbye to your tool slots from all the /dieing you have to do between a few lives. I'm so fucking mad about it. I can't contain it.

I've stopped playing as much as I use to because I hate feeling useless. Being born black in a town that needs brown people or ginger people just breaks me. Do I die and try to come back to help them? If I do I'm hurting myself and my score to try to help, but they need me. I hate it.

Sorry this is such a long rant. I really hate being restricted from doing things for BULLSHIT reasons. I think you're lazy Jason. You want us to trade but pull this half thought out idea and force us to try to adapt. Make a system for trade and maybe we'll start doing it. The way things are now trade is impossible. We're just going to live together and steal and that should've been obvious to you if you thought this out more. I love this game and I love this community but you make loving it extremely hard sometimes. Sorry for being mean. This frustration is real.

Edit: just thought of more stuff while I was seething in anger.

HOW are we suppose to trade when most races don't have access to horses? We fucking walk around with a cart and a note and hope we run into someone? No. You're lucky most of the playerbase doesn't play vanilla because without mods this game would have crashed and burned a while ago. Trying to find another town without a bell is a monumental task. Most of the towns are completely dead when you get there, and even when you find their town you can't speak to them. You just hope you have kids there so their lives will be easier than yours. You can leave a map or a waystones, but sometimes it's thousands of meters away and there's a chance no one will ever go.

We're resilient players, but why should we have to be? Why do you punish the vets for being good at the game? I don't want to have to fix problems every single time I play. Sometimes I just want to make some yum foods and chill. Why can't we just have fun? Why does everything have to be tedious and annoying? The majority of the playerbase can't fix the big problems. They have no idea how to make an engine or make rubber. You teach one, which takes your entire life, and there's still a hundred more players that don't know what to do.

Reeeeeee

Last edited by DiscardedSlinky (2020-02-14 05:38:14)

fug · 2020-02-14 05:21:33

I mean the meta is what it is because there's absolutely no reason you should care about your lineage besides points (you can just try to avoid this via lowering your fertility or let the dice roll since 30-40 is very easy to maintain and has very little difference in slot.)

If I am a brown woman and a black village is nearby my best choice is to just move in with the black people. I have no reason to go home after finding the people who basically help progress the game forward to a more stable situation.

If I am ginger or white I have absolutely NO REASON to stay in a mono race village because we cannot even climb the tech tree. Staying a mono village as these races is silly unless it's the only bell town on the server because if you ring the bell smart players will leave and come to the bell. The biggest flaw is though when the server gets too built up people end up just playing around in places they like so even then you're moreso forced to move to their towns instead.

I wouldn't even say getting two families together is really a challenge because all it takes is one smart player to go transplant a lineage branch into another town and boom. Suddenly you've skipped the "hard" part of the challenge.

Since again there's no family loyalty you're always better off forming multiracial towns. I'd go so far as to say it's probably better to split off and pray the original line dies out in old town because they're leaching some of the people for the much more viable town. The variety of things you can do in game killed by racial specialization honestly isn't worth it.

Horses, dyeing clothes, fishing, building, tattoos, cactus fruit, bananas, pumpkin pies, sugar cane pens, yum shrines with mango trees, seal hunting, rubber making, glass making and other things locked behind race absolutely killed some fun aspects of the game that you can only do if you were born the right color. So what great thing did we get for specialization?

Annoying griefing methods like tossing stuff in biomes purposely either through stepping on snakes or just dying in the biome. We got annoying situations where you have to walk all around a biome because otherwise you drop what you gathered. We got bugs that had to be fixed, and of course traveling in game got a whole lot worse overall due to only one race having horses.

TL:DR; specialization is bad because no need for family loyalty. It makes more sense for every place to be a hippy commune instead of self segregation.

Jk Howling · 2020-02-14 05:55:28

Huh. Just checking things out again after 4~ months of not playing because of the directions updates were going. Already had my foot out the door, but family specialties pushed me the rest of the way.

Assuming shit's p much the same as they have been, if not worse?

Coconut Fruit · 2020-02-14 06:44:12

jasonrohrer wrote:

At least now, there has to be some coordination and cooperation.

I completely agree, but why making it multiracial? That would be so fun to do things that require 2 or 3 people to do, people from your family and not other families.
I just want a fun game and not annoying one.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Having all three live in the same town is at least more interesting

Is it? I think it was more interesting back when every family was somehow scared of other families... They were making walls to protect their goods.
Ohol used to be a fun game :( I even miss rift times, it wasn't perfect but still it was fun... But this specialization update and the need to have other races live with you in order to survive is just too much for me.

jasonrohrer · 2020-02-14 06:57:30

Well, the point was trade, and people routed around it by living together. That is a form of trade, but it's not trade between towns.

I'm still thinking about ways to force them apart more. You should want/need SOME contact with other fams, but it shouldn't be optimal to simply merge together into one entity. Seems like diseases may be warranted, but I haven't thought it through.

There is also specialization within a family due to tool slots, so one person in the village simply can't do everything.

Also, I don't 100% believe you that the main problem is multi-racial towns. I think you're probably just annoyed that you can't get oil solo. It's good that you can't just get oil solo, because as an expert player, you're just going through the motions whenever oil is needed. There's no challenge or uncertainty there.... it's just routine.

sigmen4020 · 2020-02-14 07:05:16

Title: I hate specialization update

Who doesn’t?

Last edited by sigmen4020 (2020-02-14 07:06:00)

Dodge · 2020-02-14 07:30:53

fug wrote:

Since again there's no family loyalty you're always better off forming multiracial towns. - It makes more sense for every place to be a hippy commune instead of self segregation.

Yeah that's pretty much the missing piece that gives sense to tool slots, family specialization, private properties and trade, this and food scarcity.

If you have to take real care of your close family and there isn't so much food that villages drown in it then it makes sense to have a house and property for them since then it becomes your family's food+ressources and they increase the chances of survival of your family over others but having other families alive is still useful since they can do other jobs or even have access to other ressources but if things get tough then it's priority to your family members.

fug · 2020-02-14 07:57:09

jasonrohrer wrote:

Also, I don't 100% believe you that the main problem is multi-racial towns. I think you're probably just annoyed that you can't get oil solo. It's good that you can't just get oil solo, because as an expert player, you're just going through the motions whenever oil is needed. There's no challenge or uncertainty there.... it's just routine.

Bless their little hearts for doing in the oil grind. I cannot stand doing oil and I couldn't stand doing it even when you could do it solo.

The part I hate is having to basically /die into a lineage so I can have some fun. Moms don't want babies killing themselves and I don't want to be annoying players just so I can go do some fun stuff.

Making a snow village, a secret fishing spot, raising kids and teaching them to be productive in the arctic is cool (no pun intended.) This is completely ginger locked and black or tan people don't have something fun like this to do because their biomes don't have good reasons to sit in them.

Expressing yourself through various dyed clothing requires a combination of races meaning unless you're a village of two (appropriate) races you can't do this. If you're black you get to make the old colors but red and blue just don't hit that itch. Green booties, black sweaters, yellow hats, these are things that look great but either require tan people (yellow + green) or gingers (black.)

Maybe you just like cooking instead of all these fancy things. You're locked out of pumpkin pies, mangoes, tomatoes, salsa, ketchup, and bananas if you aren't tan. No yummy cactus fruit if you aren't black, and my god you can't even make sauerkraut if you aren't ginger! As someone who made hundreds if not thousands of crocks of sauerkraut those things used to be in any village I visited hell, you even seen them in villages on stream during last years one year party.

If you're the type of player who cares more about tech than fun little things you're still quite shit out of luck. If you're white or ginger you have no reason to make a village because without the other two races you reach dry well and can't move any further. No glass without blacks, no usable transport without them either. No tans means no rubber and that means you can't do wine or anything tech related at all.

The problem isn't that you removed a solo players ability to do a needed tech grind but you removed a bunch of fun gameplay options without putting something to fill the gap.

Racial specialization should be about improving someone's ability to do something instead of being a lock no one can break.

Gingers should be good at getting oil because they have natural hot springs they can (only) use to fire the oil rig which makes doing oil easier for them. Give them breedable worms so they fish better, woolier sheep so they can be better tailors or shrimp catchers. If you want to be fancy let them make premium ice creams.

Blacks get extra horse types and horse breeding. Put normal ass horses elsewhere and give them faster or strong, or just aesthetically pleasing horses. Make their alum longer lasting, let their paints be better, make their trees free to cut so they can even specialize as hot weather lumberjacks.

Tans should have even more food recipes to make them unique. Cakes, banana nut bread, different fruit trees, more fruit trees! Definitely give them a way to kill mosquitoes as keeping them around in a livable area is asking for trouble. Maybe give them a way to make cooling clothing such as palm leaf skirts, coconut bras, or even fancy fruit hats. There's endless fun ideas to throw out for each and every race.

Cutting out the fun is the problem of the racial specialization update not just nerfing how fast players can climb the tech tree.

Kinrany · 2020-02-14 08:15:24

jasonrohrer wrote:

Every life, you should see an obvious problem that needs solving in your village, and not be quite sure how to solve it.

This part is missing now.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Though I haven't see that myself so much. It's not like every town has all three "necessary" skin tones represented.

Because it's hard, duh. It's still a better strategy than anything else.

DestinyCall · 2020-02-14 08:20:35

jasonrohrer wrote:

Also, I don't 100% believe you that the main problem is multi-racial towns. I think you're probably just annoyed that you can't get oil solo. It's good that you can't just get oil solo, because as an expert player, you're just going through the motions whenever oil is needed. There's no challenge or uncertainty there.... it's just routine.

The problem isn't multiracial towns. The problem is that the way biome specialization was implemented is broken and wrong. Nobody likes it. It doesn't make each race unique and fun to play. It makes the game feel smaller.

Why do you ignore our suffering, Jason?

Coconut Fruit · 2020-02-14 08:29:57

jasonrohrer wrote:

Also, I don't 100% believe you that the main problem is multi-racial towns.

I mean, I don't mind living with other races from time to time. I'm also fine with tool slots. I just hate that there is no way to thrive without other races. Spending life trying to find neccesary race and then begging them to come to live in my place is a thing that I would never do. Or searching other races to live with them because it's sensless to stay in place where I was born.

jasonrohrer wrote:

I think you're probably just annoyed that you can't get oil solo.

I love cooperation, always did, but with my own family and not strangers :c

You also wanted to slow down climbing the tech tree. Ironically living with more families means more people (maybe too many) and that means faster progress.

I also love small, new towns, and believe me, new players don't like to live in big towns, they want to feel that they do something, that they can help thriving their family and in big towns their actions don't matter at all.
I think there are a lot fewer small towns because of specialization update.

sigmen4020 · 2020-02-14 09:47:37

fug wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
Also, I don't 100% believe you that the main problem is multi-racial towns. I think you're probably just annoyed that you can't get oil solo. It's good that you can't just get oil solo, because as an expert player, you're just going through the motions whenever oil is needed. There's no challenge or uncertainty there.... it's just routine.
Bless their little hearts for doing in the oil grind. I cannot stand doing oil and I couldn't stand doing it even when you could do it solo.
The part I hate is having to basically /die into a lineage so I can have some fun. Moms don't want babies killing themselves and I don't want to be annoying players just so I can go do some fun stuff.

Making a snow village, a secret fishing spot, raising kids and teaching them to be productive in the arctic is cool (no pun intended.) This is completely ginger locked and black or tan people don't have something fun like this to do because their biomes don't have good reasons to sit in them.
Expressing yourself through various dyed clothing requires a combination of races meaning unless you're a village of two (appropriate) races you can't do this. If you're black you get to make the old colors but red and blue just don't hit that itch. Green booties, black sweaters, yellow hats, these are things that look great but either require tan people (yellow + green) or gingers (black.)
Maybe you just like cooking instead of all these fancy things. You're locked out of pumpkin pies, mangoes, tomatoes, salsa, ketchup, and bananas if you aren't tan. No yummy cactus fruit if you aren't black, and my god you can't even make sauerkraut if you aren't ginger! As someone who made hundreds if not thousands of crocks of sauerkraut those things used to be in any village I visited hell, you even seen them in villages on stream during last years one year party.
If you're the type of player who cares more about tech than fun little things you're still quite shit out of luck. If you're white or ginger you have no reason to make a village because without the other two races you reach dry well and can't move any further. No glass without blacks, no usable transport without them either. No tans means no rubber and that means you can't do wine or anything tech related at all.

The problem isn't that you removed a solo players ability to do a needed tech grind but you removed a bunch of fun gameplay options without putting something to fill the gap.

Racial specialization should be about improving someone's ability to do something instead of being a lock no one can break.
Gingers should be good at getting oil because they have natural hot springs they can (only) use to fire the oil rig which makes doing oil easier for them. Give them breedable worms so they fish better, woolier sheep so they can be better tailors or shrimp catchers. If you want to be fancy let them make premium ice creams.
Blacks get extra horse types and horse breeding. Put normal ass horses elsewhere and give them faster or strong, or just aesthetically pleasing horses. Make their alum longer lasting, let their paints be better, make their trees free to cut so they can even specialize as hot weather lumberjacks.
Tans should have even more food recipes to make them unique. Cakes, banana nut bread, different fruit trees, more fruit trees! Definitely give them a way to kill mosquitoes as keeping them around in a livable area is asking for trouble. Maybe give them a way to make cooling clothing such as palm leaf skirts, coconut bras, or even fancy fruit hats. There's endless fun ideas to throw out for each and every race.

Cutting out the fun is the problem of the racial specialization update not just nerfing how fast players can climb the tech tree.

Would love to see stuff like this instead of what we currently have. All of this would make race specialization actually fun.

JonySky · 2020-02-14 10:14:11

Players currently use / die to return to their cities and finish tasks with new skill boxes ... logically they use the easiest and shortest path ...

Maybe on some occasions we can ask someone for help, but it is punctual ... I have rarely seen other players ask me for help to do something ... I do not think that the skill boxes have any collaborative impact on OHOL

It's just a nuisance for everyone, and it's causing many of us to leave the ship (the test is in this post)

In addition to being frustrating, it is unfair and goes the reverse of the logic of any game: the more you help your family and more things you do, the game "rewards you" by limiting your skills and forcing you to kill yourself to be born again with more skill boxes

Jason, look at the comments in this post and get off your cloud, the skill system is an extremely simple and little worked "bungling solution" that is NOT working

Nobody wants to enter a game for 60 minutes where you are forced to leave the tasks halfway done because the skill boxes are over,

or spend 60 minutes collecting resources for another family and never being able to see it for use.

People enter the games to feel like a hero, or a villain, or a member who has actively helped their family ...

since you implemented the skill boxes I feel like a handicapped ... no thanks

Last edited by JonySky (2020-02-14 13:30:26)

JasonY · 2020-02-14 10:43:42

Game needs content

StrongForce · 2020-02-14 14:33:40

JasonY if you just pile content on a game the exploits and bugs just pile up. If you can't find something to do in ohol you lack imagination. Go watch TV or play a game that spoonfeeds you a story.

Bring ideas I have seen multiple occasions where Jason implemented community ideas but don't be sad if they don't

Cantface · 2020-02-14 15:13:52

jasonrohrer wrote:

Well, the point was trade, and people routed around it by living together. That is a form of trade, but it's not trade between towns.
I'm still thinking about ways to force them apart more. You should want/need SOME contact with other fams, but it shouldn't be optimal to simply merge together into one entity. Seems like diseases may be warranted, but I haven't thought it through.
There is also specialization within a family due to tool slots, so one person in the village simply can't do everything.

Also, I don't 100% believe you that the main problem is multi-racial towns. I think you're probably just annoyed that you can't get oil solo. It's good that you can't just get oil solo, because as an expert player, you're just going through the motions whenever oil is needed. There's no challenge or uncertainty there.... it's just routine.

I can deal with tool slots and race restrictions. I'd RATHER HAVE one or the other though as BOTH limit tech tree climbing;

I CANNOT deal with diseases being added to different races that force us to play apart. MULTIPLE people agree that the playstyle HAS to involve all important races to survive. In a way we have been shoehorned into living together because we NEED to, the new toolslot/racial restrictions ENCOURAGES this playstyle more than any other so players adapted and that's NOT people being 'lazy' or 'not wanting trade' it's literally because we can't play any other way! It would make zero sense to play how you want us to. The players are doing what's best for the towns, to suddenly make us all some kind of disease carrier to other race fams will cause way too many issues.

Last edited by Cantface (2020-02-14 15:39:35)

Lava · 2020-02-14 15:22:05

Family specialization just limits content in the game that we already have so little of. It’s such a bad update.

StrongForce · 2020-02-14 15:57:33

It would be nice if there was a hard way for every race to klimb the techtree.
And the easy way if all work together.

Melea · 2020-02-14 16:07:00

fug wrote:

The problem isn't that you removed a solo players ability to do a needed tech grind but you removed a bunch of fun gameplay options without putting something to fill the gap.
Racial specialization should be about improving someone's ability to do something instead of being a lock no one can break.
Gingers should be good at getting oil because they have natural hot springs they can (only) use to fire the oil rig which makes doing oil easier for them. Give them breedable worms so they fish better, woolier sheep so they can be better tailors or shrimp catchers. If you want to be fancy let them make premium ice creams.
Blacks get extra horse types and horse breeding. Put normal ass horses elsewhere and give them faster or strong, or just aesthetically pleasing horses. Make their alum longer lasting, let their paints be better, make their trees free to cut so they can even specialize as hot weather lumberjacks.
Tans should have even more food recipes to make them unique. Cakes, banana nut bread, different fruit trees, more fruit trees! Definitely give them a way to kill mosquitoes as keeping them around in a livable area is asking for trouble. Maybe give them a way to make cooling clothing such as palm leaf skirts, coconut bras, or even fancy fruit hats. There's endless fun ideas to throw out for each and every race.
Cutting out the fun is the problem of the racial specialization update not just nerfing how fast players can climb the tech tree.

I think the *essence* of racial specialization was a decent idea, but jason's implementation of it sucks. Make things easier or more efficient for the 'correct' race, and/or make things more difficult or unproductive for the 'wrong' races. But being completely and magically locked out of content because your character is the wrong skin tone is frustrating. Incredibly frustrating. And that's just for the enjoyable but non-necessary content.

When it involves absolutely necessary tech advancement or your people die out, the magical no-biome-usage-for-YOU restrictions are far more than just frustrating. They end up sucking all the enjoyment out of the game.

Melea · 2020-02-14 16:22:54

jasonrohrer wrote:

Well, the point was trade, and people routed around it by living together. That is a form of trade, but it's not trade between towns.

Why are you trying to force trade so hard? Why is the life of a village absolutely dependent on trade? If you consider actual human history, villages were self-sufficient for the absolute necessities of life. They had water, grew crops, raised livestock, and figured out ways to create housing, clothing, fire, etc with the materials that were available to them. They didn't run out of water and die in a generation from lack of trade.

Trade has historically been a way to trade LUXURY items, to get access to new and unique things that aren't available in that location. Villages could live without traded items, but people like variety. People like having shiny stones or beautiful metal ornaments. People like having access to new foods and unique crops/livestock.

You're trying to make people trade in the way you want by punishing their lineages with death if they don't. Think of the "carrot and stick" metaphor...when the 'carrot' approach could get the same behavior and not frustrate the hell out of your player base, why do you always seem to insist on using the 'stick'?

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