Family professions.

Spoonwood · 2020-02-25 22:18:59

jasonrohrer wrote:

But if I were to go in there and try to codify this manually, we'd go from something dynamic, emergent, and robust to something static, pre-defined, and fragile.

The number of tool slots is pre-deinfed for each life and thus do not emerge from gameplay, but instead is static and pre-defined. The game has plenty of tool progressions like a fire needing to get made before even a smithing hammer. Since plenty of players don't know how to make a fire and others who know how to do so, the whole tool progression is not robust, and thus fragile also.

Also, there's nothing dynamic when uses a tool slot. Once one uses it, it's fixed as to what one can do with that slot.

So make little mistake, tool limitations do NOT have the properties that Jason ascribes to them. You're probably better off not trying to convince him to change anything here. It's probably better to not play or try to persuade others not to play one way or another.

fug · 2020-02-26 01:04:25

jasonrohrer wrote:

Now, we may still be able to discover something valuable here about a fundamental mechanical problem (picking tools to learn as a child before you have enough information needed to make such a permanent decision?).

I mean to break the tool issues down quickly it looks like this:

Broken or nonsense tools.

- Healing only requires knife for most healing recipes. In an ideal world you actually need to know pads, sewing, + knife to cure but that has literally never been the case since the system came out. Sterilized knife is only used for snake bites vs arrow wounds where you need to sterilize the knife to treat the wound.

- Same issue with the newcomen roller where you learn the sword skill while recycling one into a rod. ??? It's a tax that has also been in there since the introduction of tool slots.

Unrefined groupings.

- Stone hatchet really either needs to be a freebie or covered under the steel axe. As of currently it's essentially just an Eve tax and late game is a trap option for players to learn.

- The whole smithing thing is laid out goofy as can be. You should be learning kiln + forge and not tongs + kiln to be doing smithing/pottery. Fixing this allows there to be a difference between a potter and a blacksmith which in the title example showed how these tools don't separate the jobs at all. Remove the tong tax and replace it with a proper tool.

- Stuff like fishing/shrimping should be grouped together like stone hoe/steel hoe and the various thread needles. Shrimping is basically for children as it has an age 3 limit and is renewable mostly while fishing has an age requirement and constantly requires the player to fetch more and more worms. A lot of things really should be grouped a bit better as more tools for the sake of more tools just leads to traps and crap options.

Permanent learning.

This is something that can be incredibly annoying due to how niche some tools uses are which makes these tools annoying to learn for only one use. Newcomen Drill I'm looking at you reaaal hard.

Permanence leads to having to choose between doing what is right and doing what you want. You might need someone to learn the file so people can cut bread but the file has exactly three real uses: Make a knife, make a saw blade, or change a key. This means if you learn the file 9.9/10 times you're picking it up to use once and then you're stuck with it.

So lets talk potential fixes:

Items that should be groups for tool slot management:

1). Shrimp net + Fishing rod.
2). Stone hatchet + Steel axe.
3). Knife + Sterilized knife
4). Literally all the newcomens should go under one thing. Fuck the newcomen tax which also requires tongs too.
5). Diesel engine tech should all be combined or at least water pumps + mining rigs. I can understand cars and planes being separated because you actually drive them but both water pump + mining rig is you just putting oil into the thing...
6.) Elder note pen + charcoal pencil. Elder note pen isn't a tool and it seems really fishy you can just learn to write with a pen at age 55 but pencil has been a mystery for your whole life.

Fixing niche issues:
1). Remove tongs as a tool. Replace tongs with forge (kiln should be learned when using pottery on it NOT when covering with adobe.)
2). Either allow for a fluid period for tools OR allow people to potentially forget a tool or two. It's incredibly shitty to ask someone to learn a useless tool to help you out (looking at you newcomen drill, file, and potentially bow drill.)
3). Current system requires you to basically run around picking up items to see who knows what this is why a title system was suggested to (quickly) learn who would have some idea of what tools a player has.

Stuff that just needs fixed:
1). Healing in general. Pads are only learned when crafting and maybe cleaning, you can't learn sewing on a human and don't need it. Sterilizing a knife doesn't learn sterilized knife but instead learns the knife skill. Treating anti-venom is the only possible way to learn the sterilized knife at the moment.
2). Shouldn't be able to learn weapons on ghosts, shouldn't be able to learn sword on friendly units, shouldn't be learning sword by recycling it.
3). Using an item on the kiln should learn the skill not just covering it with adobe. It feels weird I can do pottery with just tongs alone even if it is wasteful.
4). Do literally anything with the stone hatchet. Make it free or combine it with axe. It's existence currently is just to count as something against eves.

TL;DR: Current tool slot issues revolve around items that are too niche or have one use, some things don't even work properly, permanence with tool slots leads to bad types of choices and traps, and some stuff is just nonsense or should be changed/removed.

sigmen4020 · 2020-02-26 01:29:26

fug wrote:

You might need someone to learn the file so people can cut bread but the file has exactly three real uses: Make a knife, make a saw blade, or change a key.

The file is also used when making funnels and wine glasses. Still a really one-note tool tho.

Spoonwood · 2020-02-26 01:58:16

fug wrote:

Permanence leads to having to choose between doing what is right and doing what you want.

There is no right, you have only described how you feel:

jasonrohrer wrote:

Regarding "the spirit of the game," the only spirit present is what is embodied by the mechanics themselves. Playing "against the spirit" of Chess or Go is impossible, despite what some people have said in the past when people employed "perverse" strategies.

https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/issues/529

But yeah, what you describe otherwise goes to show how static and fragile tool limitations are.

fug wrote:

So lets talk potential fixes ...

Why do you think Jason cares about your suggestions? Do you think that all of what you say about newcomen technology was just an oversight? Or that tongs was some oversight? I maintain that you'll need to stop playing and/or try to persuade others not to play here. Remember, you're not talking about someone with an open attitude here... well in several ways... the most clear indicator of the lack of openness coming as that Jason works by himself.

Dodge · 2020-02-26 02:35:41

I like the idea of learning something from your parents, your family, the world around you.

Maybe you could learn from seeing what people around you do when you are a baby and if someone does something enough times and you see them do it (vision field/screen) then you learn it and could get that skill for free, having 1-2 slots dedicated to learning seems reasonnable.

But if nobody shows you anything then you lose those 1-2 free slots, so it's up to your family to either show you how to do stuff (have you around while they craft) OR dump you on the fire and feed you every now and then.

More realistically you shouldn't be able to learn more complex tools before the age of at least 6-7 for basic ones and then even later for the even more complex ones (unless you're specially gifted, very high genetic score???) but probably should skip this for now as it's not currently relevent to add it

fug · 2020-02-26 09:23:10

Dodge wrote:

I like the idea of learning something from your parents, your family, the world around you.
Maybe you could learn from seeing what people around you do when you are a baby and if someone does something enough times and you see them do it (vision field/screen) then you learn it and could get that skill for free, having 1-2 slots dedicated to learning seems reasonnable.
But if nobody shows you anything then you lose those 1-2 free slots, so it's up to your family to either show you how to do stuff (have you around while they craft) OR dump you on the fire and feed you every now and then.
More realistically you shouldn't be able to learn more complex tools before the age of at least 6-7 for basic ones and then even later for the even more complex ones (unless you're specially gifted, very high genetic score???) but probably should skip this for now as it's not currently relevent to add it

Issue with this idea in my opinion is you're likely to learn either really random stuff if its based off default view due to most baby fires either being near the smith or bakery. As again the whole idea around this thread is to encourage children to do stuff with their family (stuff like fishing is a great boon in this area), try to remove the ability to have a completely useless tool slot skill set, and remove some of the derpiness from the system in general.

sigmen4020 wrote:

fug wrote:
You might need someone to learn the file so people can cut bread but the file has exactly three real uses: Make a knife, make a saw blade, or change a key.
The file is also used when making funnels and wine glasses. Still a really one-note tool tho.

Forgot a lot about glass stuff because I don't have the tool slots to do glassware most lives lmao.

Dodge · 2020-02-26 09:40:39

fug wrote:

Issue with this idea in my opinion is you're likely to learn either really random stuff if its based off default view due to most baby fires either being near the smith or bakery. As again the whole idea around this thread is to encourage children to do stuff with their family (stuff like fishing is a great boon in this area), try to remove the ability to have a completely useless tool slot skill set, and remove some of the derpiness from the system in general.

That's the point, if you just put your baby on the fire instead of bringing him with you and taking care of him then he learns either nothing or random stuff, but if you take the baby with you while you're doing what you want them to learn then he learns that skill, it's up to you to choose what is important that you want to teach them.

jasonrohrer · 2020-02-26 18:41:30

But if you already know the stuff yourself, why would you want your baby to learn the same thing?

You probably want your baby to spend slots learning the stuff you don't know yourself, to complement (not overlap) your own tool set.

Dodge · 2020-02-26 18:45:07

Since they would be free and dependent on wether or not you take the time to actually take care of your baby instead of dumping him on fire it wouldn't matter that much if you already know that skill and since you never know what could happen you could die from a boar or starve or wathever and then your kid knowing that skill becomes a plus.

testo · 2020-02-26 18:47:22

jasonrohrer wrote:

But if you already know the stuff yourself, why would you want your baby to learn the same thing?
You probably want your baby to spend slots learning the stuff you don't know yourself, to complement (not overlap) your own tool set.

Because some jobs and tasks are best suited to work on them individually and no by a group of people. The idea that we do everything complementing eachother is not reasonable. Lets say paper. I need to learn coals and knife. I will also probably need some kindling and pencil, unless I want to go around begging for someone to chop wood. Then I´m left with 2 toolslots and can´t barely do anything else in my life.

testo · 2020-02-26 18:55:08

Now that is "if" there was a cart to collect the branches and a knife around that I can take and if there is fire in my town. If not, I already have to start begging for someone to make a cart, someone to smith a blade and someone to make the fire or give up my intention to make paper and do one of those things.

fug · 2020-02-26 20:21:44

jasonrohrer wrote:

But if you already know the stuff yourself, why would you want your baby to learn the same thing?
You probably want your baby to spend slots learning the stuff you don't know yourself, to complement (not overlap) your own tool set.

Because not all skills are useless to have redundant people knowing?

Shrimp net
Fishing rod
Axe
Hoes
Pencil
Shears
Mallet
Shears
Hot coals
Oven
Shovel

In all my lives I've been playing I've had multiple people always learning shrimp net, hot coals, and generally something like shears or knife due to how we've been living. All of these things are useful in a case where you're living in a small area with members of your family. Its fun to cook together else why would everyone rush to grab a pie when the oven is hot? You clearly don't need multiple people to cook but you almost always see people doing it together and the same can be applied here.

People give you a reason to bring a baby around with you from the fire and you act like it's bad for them to potentially learn your own skills and that just feels silly.

Jojigirl · 2020-02-26 21:06:35

It would be a good way to teach new players as well.. Mother's would be more prone to keeping their babies with them while teaching them the profession that is passed on to them.

Or at least make Job titles user select-able.. That way it's not set in stone for anyone and if you want to declare yourself the baker/smith/doc/Fisherman/Lumberjack ect. you can.. This gives you the title and people know by hovering over who is who if they selected a profession. It would make it easier finding people who know certain tools.

Last edited by Jojigirl (2020-02-26 21:07:39)

pein · 2020-02-27 04:22:31

I had my idea of tool slot quests

pick a tool
do the quest
get back your slots

you still can't do everything since it would take a lot of time to go over all the tasks, but you would be able to free up slots by doing work with a tool
you learned axe? then cut down 30 trees and then you can learn something else

sure, making an engine is an issue, you basically do it all by yourself with 10+ tools and it's faster than asking for help
this would kinda solve it cause you would make excess resources which cover the whole city needs for a few years

my issue with slots right now:
-accidental tools like hot coals for saving the fire, lasso for cutting the lasso, roller
-misclicks where you don't want a tool but you still stuck with it for a life
-useless tools that block content for no good reason: knitting needles really has no use compared to a shovel, saw or file or drill?
-removes content, you cannot solve problems you would be able to
-forces you to do bad decisions, due to selfish and dumb players you have to solve a situation cause you cannot delay it forever
like saving fire or making tools, while some assholes just do fun stuff like building or clothes, which are bad choice for the colony at that point but they don't care
-limits certain play styles. I liked to solve issues and optimize. a fence here, a cistern there, run out with a horse, find stuff, adapt to the map as I got information. now I'm forced to do a choice without knowing what I will need.

-the duel system is not separated from work, where you need to defend yourself but you are too old to learn it.
the interaction between the griefers and townspeople shouldn't be based on tools
everybody should be able to carry a weapon (maybe choose mêlée or ranged)
everybody should be able to heal

we either need a system where you "forget" so if you don't use a tool for 20 min or so, you can learn another
an age-based system where you get access to more slots over time, so a limitation early but a reward later, also more realistic cause elders could do more things than kids. also would limit the time so you couldn't do an engine in 5 minutes anyway but you could make some progress.
maybe some sort of skill system where you need an ability for a group of tools like strength for shovel or hoe, but creativity? for an adze or stakes
and dexterity for Newcomen tools, mobility for catching a horse. I would be more natural to go on a path then adapt to what you want

One Hour One Life Forums

#26 2020-02-25 22:18:59

Re: Family professions.

#27 2020-02-26 01:04:25

Re: Family professions.

#28 2020-02-26 01:29:26

Re: Family professions.

#29 2020-02-26 01:58:16

Re: Family professions.

#30 2020-02-26 02:35:41

Re: Family professions.

#31 2020-02-26 09:23:10

Re: Family professions.

#32 2020-02-26 09:40:39

Re: Family professions.

#33 2020-02-26 18:41:30

Re: Family professions.

#34 2020-02-26 18:45:07

Re: Family professions.

#35 2020-02-26 18:47:22

Re: Family professions.

#36 2020-02-26 18:55:08

Re: Family professions.

#37 2020-02-26 20:21:44

Re: Family professions.

#38 2020-02-26 21:06:35

Re: Family professions.

#39 2020-02-27 04:22:31

Re: Family professions.

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