Jason's Murder Problem Thread

Strathos · 2018-04-16 21:09:23

Verinon1 wrote:

The problem with any sort of non lethal weapon used to knock out griefers (ie a club) is that griefers themselves would use it all the time. Thus we have a whole new problem.

What if these non-lethal weapons could only be used against killers right after a murder (while they are slow down) and required at least two players clubbing to effectively kill? It'd fit with the other anti-grief measures like destroying adobe walls.

Verinon1 · 2018-04-16 21:31:28

Strathos wrote:

Verinon1 wrote:
The problem with any sort of non lethal weapon used to knock out griefers (ie a club) is that griefers themselves would use it all the time. Thus we have a whole new problem.
What if these non-lethal weapons could only be used against killers right after a murder (while they are slow down) and required at least two players clubbing to effectively kill? It'd fit with the other anti-grief measures like destroying adobe walls.

As long as the clubs could ONLY be used against the KILLER while they are in slow down mode. Just wanted to specify those points, otherwise there could be problems.

gbear14275 · 2018-04-16 22:44:20

Drakulon wrote:

From another thread:
KucheKlizma wrote:
Aname wrote:
People have to help you.
Like if you get shot someone else has to get the Arrow out and then treat youre wounds. and if noone helps or if they are too slow you just die.
That's actually a very good idea.
Other ailments and cures would be great to have as well, so it's not all about starving or stepping on a hidden snake.
There could be poison, rabies, cold, severe wounds as well as treatments.
I also really like this.
This way a single murder would die after getting injured, but the people he injures can get treated.
You can still easily a kill griefer if everyone agrees not to treat his injuries.

I'd like to see a purpose to herbs and other non-food plants other than dyes. Healing and injuries seem like a natural progression.

Gomez · 2018-04-17 00:40:03

My take on a Karma System and murder Flagging.

Players Start with slightly better than neutral Karma, say like 50 and have a normal appearance. High Karma say +2000 grants cosmetic indicator upon reaching adult hood halo, golden glow something that obviously indicates constructive behavior. High Negative Karma say -2000 upon reaching adulthood grants an obvious evil cosmetic indicator, pale skin, red eyes, dark aura etc and could be killed without penalty once they are adults.

That way trouble makers would have window of opportunity to cause trouble unnoticed as a child. Children would have to be monitored but couldn't be vetted at birth. Plus a child can only do so much and the jig is up once they are an adult. That would be a fair system for both parties and keep it interesting.

Killing a player gives you bloody hands for say 2-5 minutes

Minor acts of destruction such as; harvesting wild carrot, trapping a bunny without a family, harvesting milkweed early etc. incur a minor penalty say -5 karma.

Major acts of destruction i.e. murder incur a larger penalty say -500 karma.

Minor acts of Good give small bonus to karm for example; trapping rabbits with families, planting crops building structures. However they should include a timer so as to not be farmable but would require some ammount of time to work off large sums of negative karma. Each action could have own internal timer say a few minutes one for rabbits, farming, building and executing a criminal, etc.

Major Acts of Good: Killing a murderer with bloody hands debuff they get a large bonus to karma say +250 or some large sum less than penalty for killing an innocent.

Maybe toss in a passive bonus to karma as well say +5 a day on negative karma.

edit* Could also toss in the possibility of evil Eve's that can see karma on babies so as to allow bandit camps to form spreading out destroying the land and searching for good colonies to plunder. Now that would way cooler than the tiddlywink griefers spawning in your base. I'd switch sides if that were offered.

Last edited by Gomez (2018-04-17 01:12:32)

Laddy · 2018-04-17 01:37:41

Didn't read the whole thread so I'm unsure if this is has been suggested or not but if you want people to be able to police their own then give them a way to police. A prisoner pit built with a spade is not too hard and not too easy, when someone is murdered you can hear a scream so if rope is around then you can go and tie up the murderer(While they can't run or drop the knife) then place him in the pit.

You haven't given us the tools to imprison people and since death isn't a permanent solution anymore we need those tools.

Canisnate · 2018-04-17 03:43:57

I was thinking about a cool down on actually playing, like of you murder more then say three people in a lifetime your account goes dead for like an hour. I feel like people are murdering because they are bored or can’t figure put how to build. This would send those players on their way. It would also make it so if a village needs to take put grifers it would be a joint effort. I.E you kill one griffer then it’s on someone else.

Artarda · 2018-04-17 06:36:28

Make it so that anybody who is flagged as a murderer can be murdered with any sharp stone or axe, while they are suffering the movement speed reduction. Killing other players would at least need some extra intelligence behind it, other than the "I have the only weapon" situation we currently have.

I mean, if someone stabbed my mom in front of me and i had a metal tool in my hand, you'd best bet I'd start swinging it at them.

Edit: also, make it so they can be murdered mid run animation. The current "If I'm constantly moving i cant be murdered" part of the system shouldn't apply to murderers with the slow.

Last edited by Artarda (2018-04-17 06:37:44)

BlueRock · 2018-04-17 07:36:00

Hold on mister while I empty my backpack in front of you so I may stab you for you have killed my brother and my sister, hold on let me swap the knife in my hand for this plate on the ground yes. Oh thanks for the red dye on my rabbit clothes, oh no wait I just got stabbed and for some reason no one can stab that guy walking away really slowly.

Okay good, he's finally dead now? Alright, see him again in a minute, good luck telling him apart.

NyanRose · 2018-04-17 07:38:55

I think a way to knock a weapon from someone's hand if you have two people would be nice. So someone doesn't take the only knife and go around killing, with little you can do to stop them. Or maybe when the weapon is bloody, someone else can run up and take it from their hands. There can also be a shield that while holding will protect you, but it takes damage each time it's hit and eventually breaks, if you are buying time.

Honestly I wouldn't mind a way to use the lasso to tie someone up and prevent them from moving to. Obviously all of these have draw backs but t hey are just more ideas. I like the idea of a karma system, maybe if you kill someone who is already bloody it doesn't reflect on your karma? This would help the 'police' forces.

As for the angry farmer...I think it would take more than the occasional kill to wrack up enough karma to be 'marked' when born. And consecutive kills should count for more than if you have say two in your lifetime. But sometimes farmers are too trigger happy. Obviously if someone is tearing up your farm or stealing things, you gotta kill them but you aren't likely to have a ton of people doing that.

She of the Sand · 2018-04-17 07:50:57

I really like that you can speak now as you are dieing.

Several things that will help murder issues:
1) Even better communication—some tech or dieing state that loudly broadcasts the murderer’s identity several screens away. Or, a semi-permanent message in blood a victim can write.

2) ‘Police’ tend to waste loads of resources just patrolling and players with cocked bow and arrows freak me out running around town (which happens to be what murderers also do..)
Part of that need to patrol comes from the lopsided combat rewarding initiative still where first to act gets an easy easyyyy target, and if they miss they run like crazy nearly imppossible to counter. If they succeed, a victim has zero way to counter directly still—I even made a knife myself being suspicious of a guy, and when he turned out to be killing the town, I arrived only to be stabbed by him without the ability to simply take my knife out and stab back. Hope the remaining villagers were competent enough to get the knife I told them about in my backpack, and not starve to famine... Anyway, making some way to parry an attack, or counter would make police better fighters, and not make victims helpless and lost causes. Police would not be required to strike first, and would ‘train’ villagers a bit more explaining and teaching how to fight.

3) Marking players. If there is a resource-cheap way of marking a player (blue or red powder? Indigo + bowl + round stone, stored as is or in pouch) then villagers and ‘police’ can coordinate loads better. It would also be a fun mechanic for laughs and cosmetics. Dyeing of skin or otherwise, colored powder to throw, tattooing with needle/small sticks.

She of the Sand · 2018-04-17 07:58:18

Also, Martial arts trains unarmed fighters irl.... just saying, because it feels so dumb to have 10 players scared of a slo-mo bloody killer with a knife who all scatter to make a bow or something as their village collapses. Hell, give me a 50% chance to die grabbing his bloody blade and I would do that instead of abandon my life’s role to go make an arrow.

Last edited by She of the Sand (2018-04-17 07:58:47)

Turnspender · 2018-04-17 08:46:22

I don't know why Jason would implement a punishment system when he can stop it happening in the first place. And making countering or avenging easier doesn't do a lot since the murderer can get the first kill anyway.

If murdering/griefing/low-level playing is a problem, just make it impossible. Disable murder, remove "wrong stage" of milkweed, forbid eating when they aren't hungry enough for it, allow dried ponds to refill, etc. You can balance this by raising difficulty on the different aspects.

Of course, these would make the game less hardcore or complex, and some players may feel their pride taken away.

Jason, eventually you have to choose between wants of you, griefers, hardcores and casuals.

Personally, I'm not too embarrassed to play a less-fallible game and don't hear too much voice insisting the necessity of allowing "obviously wrong" choices.

Just a personal voice.

YAHG · 2018-04-17 08:51:29

Wounds could be cool instead?
Like getting stabbed leaks your hp/hunger at a rate that decays over time? If untreated you either die or have stunted hunger into reduced lifespan?
Also cool scars!
Getting hit with the shovel maybe does less damage, whatever.
More weapons plz, like flint tipped spears and fire hardened ones.
If I can make a fucking backpack with a string don't make me use a whole rope on a damn arrow..

breezeknight · 2018-04-17 09:15:19

BlueRock wrote:

Hold on mister while I empty my backpack in front of you so I may stab you for you have killed my brother and my sister, hold on let me swap the knife in my hand for this plate on the ground yes. Oh thanks for the red dye on my rabbit clothes, oh no wait I just got stabbed and for some reason no one can stab that guy walking away really slowly.
Okay good, he's finally dead now? Alright, see him again in a minute, good luck telling him apart.

yeah, that's OHOL reality check

it get's even funnier if he respawns as your daughter

well, gives me another opportunity to come up with a next idea of defence without actually increasing direct violence
a belt for one piece of weaponry

breezeknight · 2018-04-17 09:37:36

Turnspender wrote:

I don't know why Jason would implement a punishment system when he can stop it happening in the first place. And making countering or avenging easier doesn't do a lot since the murderer can get the first kill anyway.
If murdering/griefing/low-level playing is a problem, just make it impossible. Disable murder, remove "wrong stage" of milkweed, forbid eating when they aren't hungry enough for it, allow dried ponds to refill, etc. You can balance this by raising difficulty on the different aspects.
Of course, these would make the game less hardcore or complex, and some players may feel their pride taken away.
Jason, eventually you have to choose between wants of you, griefers, hardcores and casuals.
Personally, I'm not too embarrassed to play a less-fallible game and don't hear too much voice insisting the necessity of allowing "obviously wrong" choices.
Just a personal voice.

OHOL fails bacause it is not attractive enough for hardcore but it allows easily enough for casuals to be just target practice
every casual player with just a little self-respect will stop participating under those circumstances
casuals are not just stupid people, too stupid to kill others or too cowardly to kill, contrary to the believe of hardcores

Verinon1 · 2018-04-17 10:35:37

I just played five games in a row where five different towns got wiped out by murder. Wow.
The more I think about it, the more I think PVP should just get removed outright. A lot of good suggestions in this thread but they all come with their own set of problems. In the meantime, the player base is hanging on by a thread these days.

sammoh · 2018-04-17 10:50:44

If you disagree with something, fork it.

Makkar0nii · 2018-04-17 12:43:30

We could add a temporary scar to the baby and adult of a killer on the face to signify that the baby is a born-killer.
To penalize the killer for killing the innocent, you can add temporary birth defects/debuffs that makes the game significantly harder for the killer.
People who attack the killer or do not wish to have a killer among their village will not get a penalty for killing the killer.
Maybe you could reward people to be a vigilante by maybe shining them with a holy light or something for being a good person.
Whatever reward/penalties you choose, it is up to you but the concept is there.

(With reference from GTA Online - Good sport, Bad sport.)

As for stealing, people will just have to make walls around their home or fences.
I understand that it will take some time. Especially for new players trying to learn the game at first.

If you want, the user can make a 'chest that signifies a home in a certain amount of tile radius which allow the user to interact things and also the user who made it could put in a password just in case the user who died comes back to his last home and if the user who wish to add some friends to interact the land then the user can authorize the friend.

Of course people may abuse this by claiming a lot of tiles. But just maybe you could make it a challenge for making this certain 'chest'.
Other than that, if people wish to raid or grief the place. They would require some tools which is pretty hard to come by when soloing.
As for a clan, i am not sure how to deal with that. They have to be well-organize enough to be able to conquer the whole village.
Plus it would be pretty hard to be organize since everybody could come out from anywhere.

(With reference from Rust the game, which is also like this except they have more inventory space and doesn't pop out someone's womb.)

This is just a suggestion. If someone has a better idea in manipulating this concept then go ahead by all means. It is to improve the game for me and you and to overcome adversity by any means necessary.

TrustyWay · 2018-04-17 12:52:33

Killers are easy to counter while griefers aren't.

People here don't understand that people can kill for any reason, no only griefing, most of the time there is a context behind. While griefing is ... just griefing.

Kinrany · 2018-04-17 15:08:29

Was going to write an effort post, but remembered that no one will seriously read it anyway, so here's a shitty short version.

This is about morality frameworks. The game shouldn't try to enforce one, only humans are smart enough. Instead it should give the players tools like murder that let them enforce their own rules. Players need to a) have these tools, b) know about other players using them. The game still isn't smart enough to figure out which actions are rule enforcement and which aren't, but that's fine, the game can be designed in a way that there's a small list of tools that can be used for rule enforcement and can't be used for anything else. This way it's easy to filter information.

Last edited by Kinrany (2018-04-17 15:14:07)

matthy · 2018-04-17 17:34:07

teanah wrote:

How about a teardrop face tattoo after a third kill? It would give players a heads up if there’s a serial killer in town and wouldn’t effect anyone who only kills a rare Greifer.
Policing and protecting the village would still be up to the players

Something so you can see a murderer would solve a lot

Also i feel like killers are needed in the game.
I last had a game where someone was protecting the last carrots for seeds with her life. so the city could live on, but she could only do that because of the knife.

Last edited by matthy (2018-04-17 17:35:36)

Lily · 2018-04-17 18:57:46

Was just playing and two murderers came into a large town and started murdering everyone. They seriously chased me for like ten minutes until I got to old age and was about to die naturally. Tried to save the kids but most got stabbed or starved. I got them some food and fed them a bit but I had to keep running off.

It is easy to avoid getting murdered, unless your a child who has to stop to eat every minute. Just got to keep running!

She of the Sand · 2018-04-17 20:11:54

Turnspender wrote:

I don't know why Jason would implement a punishment system when he can stop it happening in the first place. And making countering or avenging easier doesn't do a lot since the murderer can get the first kill anyway.
If murdering/griefing/low-level playing is a problem, just make it impossible. Disable murder, remove "wrong stage" of milkweed, forbid eating when they aren't hungry enough for it, allow dried ponds to refill, etc. You can balance this by raising difficulty on the different aspects.
Of course, these would make the game less hardcore or complex, and some players may feel their pride taken away.
Jason, eventually you have to choose between wants of you, griefers, hardcores and casuals.
Personally, I'm not too embarrassed to play a less-fallible game and don't hear too much voice insisting the necessity of allowing "obviously wrong" choices.
Just a personal voice.

1) Countering/Avenging stops the murderer...... you obviously don't have experience on towns getting wiped, or that players actually think it is worthwhile to sac themselves for their civ's survival.

2) Making no "wrong stage" kills casual as well because learning becomes pointless. Arguably, removing killing is like removing a "wrong stage" as it removes the experience and content around that already developed, and removes the ability to kill someone shoveling the berry bushes.

3) It's not about pride, it's about flow states in gaming and you are wanting to remove frustration completely, which renders it boring.

4) Games don't pick one player type exclusively, especially multi- to massively multi-player games.

Artarda · 2018-04-17 21:10:17

jasonrohrer wrote:

Ah, the "murder problem."
Good old Joriom, busily trying to break the game, just to prove his point.
Obviously, police exist in the real world for a reason. It sounds like people are trying various forms of policing in this game, which is good. You have blue clothes for a reason.
However, there's a big difference between this game and the real world, at least I believe so, and that difference is reincarnation with preserved memory. Joriom can respawn over and over, hopping from village to village, until his heinous task is complete. He's like Krampus making his rounds.
So in the real world, you could punish Joriom by physically imprisoning him or killing him, and that would put an end to his plans forever, you can't really deal with him long-term in this game.

Well, Murderers and Griefers use pre-existing knowledge to make intelligent albeit morally poor decisions when being a home wrecker.

Instead of having an automated ban system or something, why not just level the playing field?

What if there was a craftable item that a person could use on another player, or another player's corpse, to curse them? Maybe make it difficult to craft, as to keep it from being abused by everybody. Using the item on the corpse would start a ritual, which would allow other players to join in. The ritual would cause later births of that player's account to be born with solid white eyes, to make them look like the sociopath that they are. Perhaps the curse would wear off over playtime, with the duration being increased per player who participates in the ritual?

Or allow players to tame wolves into bloodhounds using mutton or rabbit, which can be released on murderers, who will chase them down, kill them and eat their corpse, leaving a nice mutilated grave. Effective against murderers but not so much other griefers.

Either way, I feel like after reading hundreds of input posts on the topic, something should be done, and I feel like Jason wants to go about it via in game mechanisms instead of automated moderator systems. Right now, the trouble causers have the upper hand due to internet anonymity, no way of distinguishing a player between lives, and the simplicity of the combat system that rewards action over reaction.

Lexyvil · 2018-04-17 22:38:54

I personally find the ability to kill to be an essential feature, mainly to stop some people to grief if/when caught. It works because there are many more considerate players than there are unfair players, from my experience playing.

Last edited by Lexyvil (2018-04-17 22:39:22)

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