Jason's Murder Problem Thread

jasonrohrer · 2018-04-18 15:31:46

Some towns have had guards on patrol. This has actually occurred in game, and that they wore blue clothes and everything. Not every town, and not everyone has seen it, but it has happened.

Guarding is actually one of the most complicated jobs in the game, because it involves judgment and decisions about people's behavior. Right in this thread, you've already told me how hard it is (limited view distance, no witnesses, etc.), in the same breath as saying that it's boring. When a murder victim staggers up to your screaming their last words, but there were no other witnesses, and the murderer is hiding somewhere, that's not a boring moment. When you get reports that some tools have gone missing, and you're given the name of a suspect to question, that is not a boring moment. You also have to train the next generation of guards, figure out rules of conduct for the guard caste, etc.

An NPC simply couldn't do it. And guard dogs? How would they know who to attack? Is the guy who just picked up the shovel stealing it or legitimately using it? A human guard can ask, "Hey, where are you taking that shovel?"

The other thing that a successful long-term village needs is leadership to make high-level decisions. Monitoring food supplies vs. fertility rate vs. seed supply. Should we make compost or carrots right now, etc. As a leader, you're not actually "doing" anything. You're kinda like an accountant or bureaucrat. But you're also kinda like a king. You're wearing the crown. Everyone is listening to you. What a boring job, though!

Kinrany · 2018-04-18 15:50:56

jasonrohrer wrote:

You do have walls for a reason, to control access. If you're worried about a griefer planting the wrong crop, put walls around the farm fields. Only let the farmer in and out. Post a guard by the door. Tools getting stolen? Do you leave your tools in real life laying on the ground? No. If you did, they would get stolen too! So you put them in a tool shed.

It's most likely already possible for the game to be in a state where there's a walled garden with farmers who just kill everyone who enters on sight. The question is, is that state reachable?

Also, having a guard that kills everyone for breaking the rules isn't enough. (Even assuming that's efficient.) She would also need to educate everyone about the rules before they're broken. I think communication in the game might be too costly right now for something like that to be economically possible.

Kinrany · 2018-04-18 16:02:39

Some towns have had guards on patrol. This has actually occurred in game, and that they wore blue clothes and everything. Not every town, and not everyone has seen it, but it has happened.

Was it a good strategy though? They might have been wasting resources on roleplay, especially since estimating efficiency of security measures is hard.

Verinon1 · 2018-04-18 16:21:03

I’ve been a guard in this game a couple times now and I can tell you that it’s impossible to do properly because
1. You have to have your knife out at all times. As soon as you put your knife away to eat something, dead.
2. You have to role play at least a little bit occasionally in order to get the lay of the land, make sure people are following the rules, etc. Problem is, as soon as you stop to type something to anyone, you’re dead.
3. Even if you see a murder happen in front of you, you can’t hit the attacker while they are moving (slowly or otherwise).
4. As I said before in another post, if a murder happens somewhere else in town, the attacker has gotten off Scott free by the time you can figure out who it was and where they were.
5. Even having multiple guards doesn’t fix the problem. How do you coordinate? When do you take the time to communicate with each other? Who goes where? What constitutes “breaking the rules”? All of this requires time and energy (and food) to settle on, and before your guards can agree, half the town is already dead.
6. No town can reach the point where they have a walled off farm/tools/smithing area because, again, murder.
7. Did a murderer just kill your last remaining fertile female or two? Might as well quit the game, cause that town is doomed anyway.

Last edited by Verinon1 (2018-04-18 16:24:13)

KucheKlizma · 2018-04-18 16:34:55

jasonrohrer wrote:

The other thing that a successful long-term village needs is leadership to make high-level decisions. Monitoring food supplies vs. fertility rate vs. seed supply. Should we make compost or carrots right now, etc. As a leader, you're not actually "doing" anything. You're kinda like an accountant or bureaucrat. But you're also kinda like a king. You're wearing the crown. Everyone is listening to you. What a boring job, though!

That's not how it works at all. Crowns are just a visual item. A successful long-term villages needs a couple of experienced players spawning there on purpose often. Ideal scenario if you want to tryhard is to get a bunch of reliable people from different timezones on discord with voice chat and control spawns, so nobody else gets in your village besides these people. Unknown people are just a problem. You need a minimum of two people who know what they're doing and never sleep and you have a perfect village. It's not a cooperative game, it's just a game full of gimmicks that deter in-game (rather than metagame) cooperation for no meaningful reason.

Last edited by KucheKlizma (2018-04-18 16:35:55)

Potjeh · 2018-04-18 16:43:08

Proper hierarchical organization is utterly impractical with the in-game communication limits and the time limit. The only way it can be done is via external voice chat. The only workable society model in the game is anarchy with a skilled and altruistic population. Please, for the love of God, don't balance the game around the 111 generation family.

Last edited by Potjeh (2018-04-18 16:44:59)

Lily · 2018-04-18 18:53:49

I think you need to get to the point where you have so much food, that several people can walk around doing nothing at all and it not effect the survival of the city. Then instead of having those people goof off, they just communicate with everyone. If you have like two or three people who do nothing but going around talking to others and organizing things, then it would improve things a lot. Those people also have time to teach the next generation.

That way you have two or three people organizing stuff, and two or three children as well. Those people can also guard stuff, and at any given time you have a lot of them, so it is difficult to kill all.

Verinon1 · 2018-04-18 19:14:04

Potjeh wrote:

Please, for the love of God, don't balance the game around the 111 generation family.

This ^

Uncle Gus · 2018-04-18 19:42:35

Another problem with guards: you train up the next generation of guards only to have one of them be the griefer. You can't actually keep people out of your village because the birth system is random.

Verinon1 · 2018-04-18 20:31:56

Here’s an idea: what if the act of killing someone just took LONGER? As in, the stabbing/shooting animation itself? You have a knife out, you click on someone to stab them, your body lunges towards them very slowly. That would at least give people time to react to attempted murder.

BlueRock · 2018-04-18 20:50:02

How do you explain any amount of rules when you have to use a chat that only allows a sentence at a time if you are lucky? lol
Congrats you can start saying which side of the Carrots are seeding, now good luck explaining that again every time a new baby or person comes through the farm in an hour or less, on top of explaining literally everything else going on just to have Oral Tradition Rules. It's just not reasonable in any way without writing, or more time. It's been tried, it's been experimented with, and it's definitely failed basically every time. Having to actively explain rules so often and with so few words, in a game where it's very easy to miss what's being said off screen or have someone simply not see it as they continue running around as you struggle to follow them while you are typing out a message. If you're any kind of youthful figure, one word at a time is a good way to have people ignore you, your message takes way too long, or you simply can't tell your message effectively because big words are getting cut apart. This is especially a problem if you were well versed in the laws in a village you happened to respawn to, but have to watch and wait while people just pick whatever carrots and berries they want while you spit out single letters they have no time to stop and wait for.

It's incredibly important to know why administration and laws worked in any case ever. Either you write it down, make an artistic depiction of it, or you've only got your real family who fears death as actual humans to worry about alongside culturally similar peoples nearby, the rest I suppose is up to the skill of your Justice System. The playerbase is presumably Globalized, and likely get their laws from Paper/Digital Document, and not verbal or temporary text communication. We humans have many tools to help us spread the word easily and efficiently. People use signs for example to know when to Stop, as otherwise we have no problem barreling through at our own leisure, or perhaps they use signs to know where not to leave their Car, or where not to go fishing, or to tell you when passing a certain point is Trespassing.

Kinrany · 2018-04-18 20:51:18

Here, they lose nothing other than the opportunity to wipe out a village.

They lose the time spent growing up and getting a weapon. Don't leave weapons lying around.

Can steel tools be melted?

pein · 2018-04-18 21:39:06

Kinrany wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
You do have walls for a reason, to control access. If you're worried about a griefer planting the wrong crop, put walls around the farm fields. Only let the farmer in and out. Post a guard by the door. Tools getting stolen? Do you leave your tools in real life laying on the ground? No. If you did, they would get stolen too! So you put them in a tool shed.
It's most likely already possible for the game to be in a state where there's a walled garden with farmers who just kill everyone who enters on sight. The question is, is that state reachable?
Also, having a guard that kills everyone for breaking the rules isn't enough. (Even assuming that's efficient.) She would also need to educate everyone about the rules before they're broken. I think communication in the game might be too costly right now for something like that to be economically possible.

had a city with flourishing farm, lot of cactus, lot of berry, i geared myself up quick, like 9 years old, full set of clothing. it was a desert village, so i didnt wanted to farm in that hot area, instead asked my mom if we got sheep. the answer was no.

so i started working on it, i was a ittle kid when i started and even had like 8 fence kits, few straight shafts and a good forest of maple trees, i was already old when realized that i cannot complete the fence alone in my lifetime, it was 5 by 5 with 4 entrances, so i cut it down to one entrance, 5 by 3, and i had 8 bars when i found a bowl of berry, would of been too late to find in other biomes, also i took our only bow, and a rope and bring back a lamb, fed it, in my last breath i was telling people on farm that we got a fence pen, grabbed a kid and told him take care of it.

my point:3x5, a whole lifetime, so how many carrots could you plant there? lets say you make 8 lines of carrot, 2 baskets and a cart, feeds like 5 people? and is a pain to open and close the fence

the other life we made it 3 of us, still took our lifetime and a 5x5 needs so much wood, you need to go to other biomes
and fences are not a wall, only if vertical

the griefer dont have to do it himself, he can troll others by placing one wheat seed between carrot seeds, also the wall that keeps griefers out, keeps others in, you can kill people in other ways, depleeting wells, feeding afk girl in the fire (that was creative, i didnt even seen once who does that, but ended up with 15 unnamed kids )

and killing seems to start before the city has sheep pen. its a noble effort to bring sheep, doesnt cost milkweed to make clothes, just berry bowls and a carrot, so you can use the thread to make ropes, build carts, doors, lasso
most people dont care about this or dont know how to do properly
even the mutton pie is more simple than hunting rabbits and mixing with carrot

so you cant wall everything, requires a lifetime even for a small room, my biggest adobe wall in a lifetime was 5x4 room?, 45 adobe

OxPower · 2018-04-18 22:02:40

Jason if you want guards we need better policing tools, blue clothes isn't exactly enough to make a police force.
What we need is proper police tools, we need some way to stun and detain people. Otherwise how do we know if the child that is forging is making useful tools that went missing or if hes making a knife.
Just talking to someone might not cut it, and if they don't answer for whatever reason, then you can only kill them. In real life, as you say, police don't shoot first ask questions later, we can't ask people to put their hands behind their back and drop to their knees.
Being able to shoot our bows and eat from horseback, if you get attacked on horseback it should kill the horse instead of the player. Some kind of bolas to slow down people running away.
We need weapon holster, for knifes and some kind of stun baton, and some way to carry the bow. no reason why they can't be slung behind your back. Also have the backpacks behave like containers, left click to store, right click to swap.
As cheesy as it sounds, we could use hats, straw hats for farmers, some kind of sheriff hat or an iron helm for police, the hunters hat(the robin hood one), etc. To help distinguish people.
The clothes of a murdered should get caked in blood and be hard to wash off or remove.
We could use personal whistles, and a bell tower... excuse me, I mean a normal bell tower, one that doesn't ring in the whole server, one that doesn't give you a homemarker, a bell tower that can actually be used as a bell tower. I'm not salty.

Last edited by OxPower (2018-04-18 22:07:12)

Verinon1 · 2018-04-18 22:10:10

Please no bolas or clubs. I’ve played enough Ark to know that those will be used by trolls constantly.

OxPower · 2018-04-18 22:14:16

Verinon1 wrote:

Please no bolas or clubs. I’ve played enough Ark to know that those will be used by trolls constantly.

Make them 1 use and hard to craft. I understand the whole, troll will use this as well, but then what? remove wheat because trolls use it to troll, remove shovels because trolls, remove bears cuz trolls, etc, etc.
If we are expected to deal with trolls on our own, we need more tools to do such a thing.

karltown · 2018-04-19 03:18:57

KISS
Keep It Simple, Stupid.
What if.. every time you killed someone you would have less chance of spawning in a large village? Kind of like if you run away as a baby.
Every time you killed someone the chance of you spawning in a village would be low. The longer you survived as an Eve or the child of an Eve, the higher the chance of spawning in a village would get.
If you are just an average player who killed a griefer, the consequences won't be high. Average players can survive for a while in the wild, whereas grievers are too stupid to be able to do anything other than live off others and make trouble. The incentive to kill a griefer planting wheat might be lower, but if you were dedicated to your village you would sacrifice.
Also, monument/structure idea: Watchtowers that would make your screen zoom out for five secs when clicked. A policeman could use it to check how everyone was doing, whereas there aren't really any advantages for a griefer.

Ferraus · 2018-04-19 05:44:02

I agree with you Karltown, KISS is important and like your idea of making the killer more likely re-spawn as an eve. We could also mix it with Roolstar idea on an other thread, which was also really good. They suggested that people needed to be feed by someone else after killing. In their example it was to insure that solo killers died off, while those that killed with the support of society would survive.

We could combine both your ideas together. If you kill your next re-spawn will be as an eve (representing being shunned by society) however, if you are feed by an other this limitation is removed.

KucheKlizma · 2018-04-19 05:48:42

That's not simple at all.

How does the game detect if you're being spawned in a "large village"? It doesn't. This would require significant development time and additional features.

Simple examples: You kill, but you also kill yourself; Killing feature is permanently removed, as it's a meaningless feature that doesn't add value and causes problems; Leave it as it is (or temporarily disable it), then improve contextually in future content releases.

In order to solve the problem, you need to know what the problem is first. So the main questions to ask are : why is killing/griefing currently a problem? When is it not and why?

Last edited by KucheKlizma (2018-04-19 05:49:12)

Ferraus · 2018-04-19 06:04:47

I think that if you kill and are not feed by another player then the next time you re-spawn you do so as a Cain (eve). The game does not need to detect if you are in a large village, just that you will be an Eve for every re-spawn from the next 60 min or however long.

breezeknight · 2018-04-19 06:17:28

Jorge wrote:

Sakkiyn wrote:
TrustyWay wrote:
Killers are easy to counter while griefers aren't.
People here don't understand that people can kill for any reason, no only griefing, most of the time there is a context behind. While griefing is ... just griefing.

Easy to counter if you are one of those who are not squeamish about carrying a knife or hiding a bow or two. I have run into to many people who just assume a knife is useless except for killing people.
They are fine with you giving them a new pair of snakeskin boots, never wondering how you got them.
Or taking that beautiful new horse for a ride, sometimes without asking, never wondering how you were able to "saddle" it.
They happily eat some mutton when they are starving never imagining how you killed the sheep that just fed their entire family.
If Jason want's us to have a more nomadic existence I think hunting need's to be more able to sustain an entire tribe like it did for ancient nomadic peoples with concomitant animal resources, perhaps the bison of north america?
I've been killed more than twice for making a knife or bow in front of power-trippers who want to be the only one with a weapon (or scarred people with a bad memory of a griefer...)

yes, did experienced this myself as well

i was once killed purely by paranoia or maybe indeed just hunger for power fired by fear

as i wrote in my other thread already, distrust has spread because of options to murder & punish

what this game needs are options for culture

only culture can save civilization, if fear wins, this game is dead, killed by distrust with nowhere to go

Joriom · 2018-04-19 12:06:32

Ugh, I missed a lot of fun on forums when I was away. Let me reply for all those days I was missing.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Ah, the "murder problem."
Good old Joriom, busily trying to break the game, just to prove his point.

There for you mate whenever you need me. Just don't call it "murder problem" - thats now how I do it most of the time. "The Joriom Problem" would make me proud but would be to ambiguous though.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Some stats:
Number of people killed by others so far: 17,456
That's almost 2% of the lives lived.
Number of people killed by Joriom: 100

That exactly proves my point. I tend to starve 75% of the town (or even more) before I start stabby stab. Thats also how I get my weapon very often - from people carrying them who have starved to death thanks to Whatocalypse and Cereal Killing.

jasonrohrer wrote:

But what about the lone farmer defending her farm from a griefer or an attacker?

Living alone is dagerous IRL. Thats why people cluster together as much as possible and are reluctant to live outside of visual/voice distance from other houses.

Thexus wrote:

Joriom is not "busily trying to break the game", he is just using the game's features.

Exactly. Game gives us a lot of ways to kill ourselves which might be used to kill others indirectly but does not provide enough ways to fix our mistakes. Thats both point of the game but also (in many cases) its biggest problem. Some of last changes fix that though - berry bushes for example.

TrustyWay wrote:

Murders aren't a problem but destroying food chain is and cannot be detected, It was like joriom was really bad player who did every mistakes possible, very fast because he knows the game.
[...]
I thought that if we could have iron handcuffes and when we catch a griefer, if 5 or 6 players burn his forehead. He is marked for hours, a day ?

Exactly the point. I start by planting wheat instead of carrots. People tend not to notice untill its to late leaving them with just few plots of carrots which I can ruin before they kill me. Even if I fail I can just respawn over and over again and finish my job. Thats how I named one town "Rose Town" once - they had this legend of "Rose the Griefer" (me, like 40 minutes earlier there) who almost killed them but one female survived and brought town back to life. It was so rewarding that I wasted 3 lives on purpose just telling them I'm the Rose reborn and getting stabbed. "I'm back".

Sometimes I would plant wheat and even if spotted and interrogated by players I would be able to lie my way out of stabbing - telling them pies are the way to go or how I didn't know wheat is bad. You could call me a sociopath at this point, right? I won't even be angry. Its so easy to manipulate most people.

The karma system would be actually a good idea but would need a hard work and a lot of cosideration. It should be both positive and negative. Like "player rating" that can be seen next to name without perfect precision and is only graphically shown on player model if its to low. Some in-game "mini-achievements" like crafting clothes, tools, and other stuff that helps others - could bring it up. Others players (possibly only family members? close relatives? town "wars" concern) should be able to bring it down though. I like the idea of "marking" players (reducing their karma A LOT) with combined effort of entire village. Lets say first one or two marks hardly change your carma but the growth is exponential during lifetime - the more people who "mark" you before you die - the faster your karma drops.

It would also solve problems of "accepting people" to communities. Why was 111 gen possible? Because we discarded people who we were not sure we can trust. Because we had Voice Chat and vouched for each other. Karma would be a little bit like that. That counters the whole "grieffer being reborn over and over again" a lot while still having the uncertainty for most "casual" players with karma in the "middle". I could not continure the "Rose Town" legend anymore with this in place. I would have to wait some time untill karma "decays" back to neutral over time or I would be forced to play alone or with other outcasts to build a "savage community" and progess it crafting usefull stuff untill we get clear. Thats also another point - karma decay over time. It should try to get back to the rest position ("neutral") over extended peroids of time (hours? days?). Decay from negative should be slower than from positive.

With karma system we would still have some "bored" people who made some good deeds and now proceed to "reset" their karma to resting point by griefing but it would reduce their possibility of respawning to finish the job.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Also, hit points don't change anything.
They make it harder to murder, but also harder to kill griefers.
Same with armor or whatever. And how would more weapons help? Or making every tool deadly?
All those things would help murderers as much as town guards.

I disagree with that. Two guards or mob of 5-6 people can stab griefer multiple times easier than grieffer can stab them repeatedly.
It would help coordinated groups of griefers though - which is quite different point anyway.

Zwilnik wrote:

The problem with spawning as an eve is that unless you specifically make them barren, innocent players can be born to them as babies and share their punishment and/or be griiefed by them.

That actually "realistic". You're not always born into thriving society, right? Sometimes you're kid of poor traveling family, lone farmers in the far reaches of the country or... kid in savage band of criminals. They reproduce too, its not like they're being castrated or anything, right?

OxPower wrote:

Some of you guys seem to not get the real issue, murder isn't a problem, its the fact that you can destroy a village without ever holding a knife. Also surviving to 60 in the wild is very easy. Not a pissing contest just being honest.

Holly words. Murder is quite fine if people can use this "tool" properly. Its making them starve and stealing their shit that kills people most of the time.
To survive to 60 yo you don't even need to start "civilization" as farming, etc. Just run around picking berries, etc. Thats totaly valid strategy I use personally for traveling before I settle as Eve or when I'm trying to reach far away camps.

KucheKlizma wrote:

I'm personally more worried about people killing all the milkweed.
There should be a counter for that as well, as well as milkweed blood and 10 second slowdown.

It could decrease karma as it is ruining the enviroment. You could use that as well with cutting down trees, trapping non-family rabbit holes, drying up wells, etc. That would not only help peventing griefers, but also could be kind of "tutorial" for players - clrear representation that they did something wrong to the enviroment. Which is not obvious at the moment.

Lum wrote:

A Karma system is definitely a bad idea. It means every player will have a score that is metagame, that applies to them outside of each life they live in the game. This is a problem because every single life should be unique, with no ties to the last one and nothing coming from these past lives (such as your crimes). We can't have that because it would ruin the idea that each experience is different and unbound from all others tou have had beforehand as well as will have afterwards.
Besides, people would start judging each other based on their karma scores, keeping only certain babies, or creating groups for people with some good scores only

Sadly, as each time you're reborn youre the same player with memories of your past lifes... you can't really have "unique experience" each time. I know it pains all of bus but we won't develope "mind controll memory erraser" in OHOL. While its not the problem with many people - we already have higher and higer interest in "coordinates spoofind" among casual players. Many people also suicide utill they're reborn in town they know - thats meta game again. Griefers try to be reborn in same places to finish the job if they failed by definition. We already have so much meta-game that you can't counter it without non-meta-game solutions.

In RL you can't judge kid because... he does not have memories of previous lifes. Although in the past humans did "judge" kids - they did test their ability to survive. Male initiation. Leaving kids in wilderness to suvive on their own for few days. Etc.

Also - we already have a lot of meta game in judging kids when I think of it. How often did you hear you mother asking you "do know know how to farm/start fire?" or "have you been here?" or "are you good?" etc? With curent system kid can simply lie his way into society. With karma system it would be harder.

MrFineGentleman wrote:

As I've said in other thread, there should be a way for the players, not the game, to deliver punishment. Mainly a ban punishment.

While good alternative solution (I even proposed it on my own some time ago) I don't think Jason wants to restrict anyones access to the main game servers. Making their game-experience harder though should not be against Jasons vision.

Turnspender wrote:

If murdering/griefing/low-level playing is a problem, just make it impossible. Disable murder, remove "wrong stage" of milkweed, forbid eating when they aren't hungry enough for it, allow dried ponds to refill, etc. You can balance this by raising difficulty on the different aspects.
Of course, these would make the game less hardcore or complex, and some players may feel their pride taken away.
Jason, eventually you have to choose between wants of you, griefers, hardcores and casuals.

Thats against the main vision of the game where "everything is finite" and players can "missmanage their resources to loose them all".
Also - how would you "remove" planting wheat instead of carrots to starve people out? By wheat not removing soil?
Sadly Jason has to choose at some point but I don't think he is ready yet. All in all - he has taken strong focus in the "pro" group of players (like those from 111 gen run) instead of "casual players". I know the general 20-80 rule that "20% of customers are responsible for 80% of complaints" but still, in case of equal pricing for everyone you should rather "fix 20% of problems to make 80% happy" instead.

breezeknight wrote:

BlueRock wrote:
Hold on mister while I empty my backpack in front of you so I may stab you for you have killed my brother and my sister, hold on let me swap the knife in my hand for this plate on the ground yes. Oh thanks for the red dye on my rabbit clothes, oh no wait I just got stabbed and for some reason no one can stab that guy walking away really slowly.
Okay good, he's finally dead now? Alright, see him again in a minute, good luck telling him apart.
yeah, that's OHOL reality check
it get's even funnier if he respawns as your daughter

Basically where I ROFL IRL. When mother calls me "hope" because "someone" grieffed town 20 minutes ago (and it was me).

P.S. - BlueRock, did you know you can pick specyfic item from your backpack out of order when you mouse ove it exactly? While its hard for things like snares or even impossible for berries - knives/arrows/pies are easy to pick up that way.

Kinrany wrote:

Was going to write an effort post, but remembered that no one will seriously read it anyway, so here's a shitty short version.
This is about morality frameworks. The game shouldn't try to enforce one, only humans are smart enough. Instead it should give the players tools like murder that let them enforce their own rules. Players need to a) have these tools, b) know about other players using them. The game still isn't smart enough to figure out which actions are rule enforcement and which aren't, but that's fine, the game can be designed in a way that there's a small list of tools that can be used for rule enforcement and can't be used for anything else. This way it's easy to filter information.

I read EVERY single post on forum my dear. Don't feel shy to white a poem taking 1,000 lines.
Anyway - thats exactly the point I agree with and what I stared with karma. "Automated" negative points for karma should only be linear slight touch while most of the "negative karma" (or "something" in any other system) should be managed by players and have magnitude higher than linear - like exponetial? Have automated tool apply slight touches if needed but give players more tools to "protect" themselves as currently they have more tools to "kill themselves".

Lexyvil wrote:

I personally find the ability to kill to be an essential feature

It is and its not the main problems. Just has the most noticable effect.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Real life combat rewards action over reaction.
Walk up behind someone and shoot them in the back of the head with a gun. Walk away. Sounds gruesome when it's put in those terms, but that's how easy it is in real life.

Thats how I take care of last people standing in towns after I've starved the rest to death. I come up to them with knife hidden in my backpack and ask "what happened?" or "can you help me?". While they try to respond i take knife out and stab them. As you said - action and forcing them to react while I can act again.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Unfortunately, there is absolutely no way to solve that problem mechanically (there will always be ways to mess things up, even if I make every action non-permanent, and the game would become ridiculous if I did that, where you'd have to be able to un-slaughter a sheep).
And if I take murder away, it will also be impossible for YOU to do anything about griefing.
You do have walls for a reason, to control access. If you're worried about a griefer planting the wrong crop, put walls around the farm fields. Only let the farmer in and out. Post a guard by the door. Tools getting stolen? Do you leave your tools in real life laying on the ground? No. If you did, they would get stolen too! So you put them in a tool shed.
[...]
After thinking this over more, I think that most of the tools to solve these problems are in your hands, and a few more (like locks) will come in the future.
And these ARE the problems that civilization needs to solve.

Combined with:

OxPower wrote:

Except killing in this game doesn't stop someone it just delays what they were doing by 10 minutes. How can we have a justice system if the "criminal" can just disconnect if caught. Without some meta consequence there can be no justice.

True about mechanical problems. But currently we have way more "hurtfull" mechanic than protective tools and there is no tool to stop someone from meta-gaming others into death. Just like OxPower said. Don't make mechanical "judge". Give people tools to affect others in next lives.

But I must also disagree on the wall part. Especially after last updates. Building walls takes time and resources. Even if you had enough clay to build walls around entire town (which you don't and pine walls are not a valid option, considering 20 milkweed per one wall) the problem is simply time. You want us to build walls and permanent settlements while still forcing us to leave them when we use up all the resources. So basically.... build a wall so you can leave the pace after you're done. It becomes usefull after its not needed anymore? Huh?

While you might be right about walls around smaller compartments, like just farm - don't expect people to "have fun" guarding one single entrance for 60 minutes straight. And when people don't have fun, they don' t do it. Its a game for the gods sake, not second job.

Potjeh wrote:

Guards are a terrible solution, though. Standing around all your life is not fun and nobody sane would want to do it.

Basically the point. They're only fun if you're "mobile" guard and combine it with other things like... town crier? Project manager? Expansion director? You both guard AND lead people. You'll get bored to death guarding entrance to farm or town.

jasonrohrer wrote:

I will work on the "can't stab a moving person" issue. Running around shouldn't be a form of defense.

Thank you. It was ridiculous when I could "wiggle" around 4 tiles bring slowed by bloody knife and 5 people with knives could not kill me

breezeknight wrote:

i would be very happy if there were farmers in OHOL, for now those are random people, looking like everybody else, maybe even nameless, how should i know how skilled or trustworthy ?
i really hope some day we'll get actual professions, IRL not everybody can just waltz in & be a farmer where carrots are
similar is with guards
i have still first to see a town in OHOL with actual guards, so far everything is chaos, stuff scattered everywhere because people just try to survive
but i am already happy if there is no murderer running free & killing people

Uncle Gus wrote:

Another problem with guards: you train up the next generation of guards only to have one of them be the griefer. You can't actually keep people out of your village because the birth system is random.

Oh how many times I've seen "roles going wrong" in towns. Farmer gets to old and tells me, a new bown kid to take care of farming now we people can depend on me... and first thing I do when he dies or goes away is plant wheat everywhere. Or like when guard actually cares about his job and takes care of prople doing shady stuff but then hes to old and tries to pass the baton (fe. knife to next generation person) and gets stabbed while griefer just got a knife the easiest way in his life.

Good griefer can act as productive group memeber untill he is ready to strike or he can lie his way out placing blame on some other person. So many times I've made guards chase after innocents after I managed to lie my way out of planting wheat or killing someone... So many times I've been given the role I wanted so its easier to grieff this way.... So many times I've been given knife by older generation... I also was stabbed few times by kid to whom I gave my knife Even experience can't help you to judge other players well enough after just few minutes.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Respawning is non-trivial in this game, so we're already way better off than pretty much any game operating in this space.
Hard server assignments would also help. Suppose you are assigned to a server for an hour. If you die before that, you get assigned to a different one. If you live the full hour, you stay on that server.

I can confirm that forcing server would help just like increasing sever population already helped some with grieffing. Its now often harder to kill town because there are enough people online on one server to "migrate" from main town to smaller settlements around and repopulate town after some time. Now with higher population cap only server 1 and 2 have people online most of the time and it has effect similat to "forcing them servers" as there are only two viable ones.

KucheKlizma wrote:

Killing a town is actually healthy though. It's an organic way of resetting, in the absence of the apocalypse.
From a player perspective you don't really experience anything different than being killed by a random snake unless you're meta-gaming and repeatedly suiciding to get in the same village, since the town's progress is a group effort anyway so nobody feels personal ownership of a town.

Killing a town is healthy if it takes generations of missmanagement. Its unhealthy when single person can kill it during single lifetime and thats basically what I was going - killing 4 towns in 2 hours. Using 30 minutes of single person to ruin combined effort of 50 people over 10 hours.

The "nobody feels personal ownership" argument fals short for me. We're human beings with their mindsets outside of the game. Its almost impossible to change that just to play game. Most of us brings the need for something personal to the game - thats just how most of people are conditioned. You won't change that by saying "hey, in this game there is nothing private so don't fell to attached, ok?". Its not how it works.

Hiker170 wrote:

Other then Joriom I wonder how many others have made a game out of killing towns and villages, I mean most will be small families so they only kill a few people each time, but does that mean much when players can find it relatively easy to develop into later stages in the game and even make weapons. A lot of that time is mainly spent searching for the resources. Yet we have so many tools now to know about a single killer that it almost seems like it shouldn't be much of an issue anymore.

I don't think many people "made game out of killing towns" just because there is limited ammount of towns you can kill. I mostly spare settlements that are just few generations in. I take care of big fish - towns with wooden floors, adobe walls, steel tools everywhere around, possibly horses and sheep. Those are the "towns" I consider killing. And I still can kill them during single lifetime most of the time. Hell, sometimes it takes just 20-30 minutes.
There are tools to know about a killer. But show me the tool that helps others to notice me planting wheat before its to late? Show me the tool that helps others protect their handcarts full of food or tools or bring them back after I've stile them and moved them few screens outside of town. Those are just examples.
And yes - I know you can kill someone planting wheat. But first you need to notice that heppening. Carrot and wheat seeds look almost identical when planted and while you plant from backpack - its almost impossible to notice you doing so.

powa wrote:

The basic natural advantage a town should have over an outsider is numbers. But an organized group should be capable of overrunning a town. So the solution should focus on the power of numbers.

Totaly agree with that and with all the comments Uncle Gus had. Won't quote it all as there are enough quotes in this post already...

jasonrohrer wrote:

Some towns have had guards on patrol. This has actually occurred in game, and that they wore blue clothes and everything. Not every town, and not everyone has seen it, but it has happened.

I've tried doing it myself few weeks ago and even posted my fidings on forums as well as ideas what jobs you can "merge" with being town guard to be more usefull.

Potjeh wrote:

Please, for the love of God, don't balance the game around the 111 generation family.

Totaly agree. That was a one-time BORING feat to prove the point. Not actual casual gameplay experience.

breezeknight wrote:

Jorge wrote:
I've been killed more than twice for making a knife or bow in front of power-trippers who want to be the only one with a weapon (or scarred people with a bad memory of a griefer...)
yes, did experienced this myself as well
i was once killed purely by paranoia or maybe indeed just hunger for power fired by fear

as i wrote in my other thread already, distrust has spread because of options to murder & punish
what this game needs are options for culture
only culture can save civilization, if fear wins, this game is dead, killed by distrust with nowhere to go

After my first rampage killing towns... I noticed people getting paranoid indeed. To the point where I was few times stabbed acting up as good, just dumb citizen, for... picking up carrots from seeding row!

karltown · 2018-04-19 12:43:03

@KucheKlizma
He's already implemented something similar, where if you suicide as a baby you're less likely to be born to a village with x number of people. So I don't think it would be that hard.
Also. if killing means you kill yourself, people would be less likely to want to kill a griefer planting wheat or letting out sheep.
If you're a griefer and you just chop down wheat, the "if you're a murderer you won't respawn here" won't work. But if people try to kill you without you ever taking out a weapon, it probably won't be that hard. Depends on the skill of the griefer.

Kinrany · 2018-04-19 14:56:54

Thanks for the post, Joriom.

There needs to be a very cheap wall that can be mass produced. Knee-high piles of dirt or something.
It's supposed to be equivalent to a paper wall, a signalling device, or a piece of police tape: doesn't really protect anything from anyone, but breaking it alerts everyone around that something shady is happening/has happened.

Also, creating in-game incentives for people to destroy other villages could help: griefing can't be a problem if the game is balanced around regular players doing the same thing.

Also, can we please taboo the world word "karma"? It's as vague as "magic".

Last edited by Kinrany (2018-04-19 17:29:36)

Joriom · 2018-04-19 15:06:58

Kinrany wrote:

Also, can we please taboo the world "karma"? It's as vague as "magic".

So lets also taboo the use of "One Hour" and lets leave the game as "One Life" - no rebirth. Ever. Cause respawning is as vague as reincarnation or maic.

One Hour One Life Forums

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