Constantly Starving is Bad Game Design

Crumpaloo · 2020-04-12 21:42:15

Gotten to the point where people are all huddled around kitchens waiting to gobble up what food is left before the village collapses. Atleast thats what ive been experiencing since the update. No real time to teach new players who are insta-gibbing because they only got 30 seconds to figure out how the game works before dying. Same work for half the results is also frustrating as well. No way to work on growing as a village when half of it is on the brink of starvation. That is all...

DestinyCall · 2020-04-13 00:45:48

So you are saying that everything is working exactly as Jason intended.

That's good, I guess.

sigmen4020 · 2020-04-13 08:45:15

Who needs to actually rebalance food, when you can just cut all food values in half.

Coconut Fruit · 2020-04-13 09:39:43

People just didn't adapt yet. More and more people will realize that yumming is the way to go, and it will get only better.

miskas · 2020-04-13 12:51:20

Coconut Fruit wrote:

People just didn't adapt yet. More and more people will realize that yamming is the way to go, and it will get only better.

You are wrong Sir!
Milk is the way to go.
Even now with the 0.5 factor. Milk is twice better than yamming
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9378

Last edited by miskas (2020-04-13 12:51:36)

FishRfriendsnotfood · 2020-04-13 14:31:22

Remember when temperature overhaul was done? There was no perfect temp, and you were constantly freezing. People were starving in droves....they got used to it. Either adapt or don't, Jason doesn't care either way.

DestinyCall · 2020-04-13 14:51:53

Actually, I think he would prefer if we do not adapt. It would save him the trouble of cutting food values again. It is tough work, staying one step ahead of his players.

Morti · 2020-04-13 14:55:42

FishRfriendsnotfood wrote:

Either adapt or don't, Jason doesn't care either way.

Of course he cares. Have you never added a new rule to an old game? There is always a reason. There is always a concern, for such changes; always a desire, to see if that concern, manifests itself in others.

Putting forth such a proposal, whether it becomes a house rule, a regional custom, or an 'official rule' is worth the risk that the other kids don't get it, ban you from ever playing with them, and no longer trade their chocolate milk for your apple, at lunchtime.

testo · 2020-04-13 19:31:47

DestinyCall wrote:

Actually, I think he would prefer if we do not adapt. It would save him the trouble of cutting food values again. It is tough work, staying one step ahead of his players.

We gotta give it to him this time, he was ahead of the players.

sigmen4020 · 2020-04-13 20:44:54

FishRfriendsnotfood wrote:

Remember when temperature overhaul was done? There was no perfect temp, and you were constantly freezing. People were starving in droves....they got used to it. Either adapt or don't, Jason doesn't care either way.

People adapted by actually making clothing, which was practically unheard of before the change. Not defending the food nerf btw, that change is just bad all around.

Last edited by sigmen4020 (2020-04-13 20:45:42)

FishRfriendsnotfood · 2020-04-13 21:25:22

sigmen4020 wrote:

FishRfriendsnotfood wrote:
Remember when temperature overhaul was done? There was no perfect temp, and you were constantly freezing. People were starving in droves....they got used to it. Either adapt or don't, Jason doesn't care either way.
People adapted by actually making clothing, which was practically unheard of before the change. Not defending the food nerf btw, that change is just bad all around.

Um...yes thank you for repeating what I said. you adapt...sorry I wasn't specific and stated exactly how we adapted. didn't know spoon was here.

sigmen4020 · 2020-04-13 21:36:23

FishRfriendsnotfood wrote:

sigmen4020 wrote:
FishRfriendsnotfood wrote:
Remember when temperature overhaul was done? There was no perfect temp, and you were constantly freezing. People were starving in droves....they got used to it. Either adapt or don't, Jason doesn't care either way.
People adapted by actually making clothing, which was practically unheard of before the change. Not defending the food nerf btw, that change is just bad all around.

Um...yes thank you for repeating what I said. you adapt...sorry I wasn't specific and stated exactly how we adapted. didn't know spoon was here.

You literally said that we adapted by getting used to freezing, which we didn't. We adapted by finding new ways of getting warm. If you meant that we adapted by making clothing (like I said) you didn't formulate that especially well. Also it's funny you mention spoon, who would never defend the temp update.

Last edited by sigmen4020 (2020-04-13 21:39:10)

Caprys · 2020-04-13 21:39:56

It gets even better when you spawn in as an eve and your whole surrounding is already wiped clean of any food.

testo · 2020-04-14 12:26:47

Individually if I had to classify the game in a scale from 1-5 for how hard it can be i´d say we are at 3.

Key problems:
- Players got used to free food in the wilds. Forever. It didn´t matter how bad the situation was in town, you could just run to a green patch to get berries. Same but a little more elaborated with eggs. Basically the full life diet for free if you moved around a bit.

- Players got used to the same diet. Forever. It didn´t matter where, just plant those damn carrots and green lollipops and you all good. Sometimes we had so many dead rabbits that we rather roast them to get rid of the clutter. Nowdays you better be making a pie with it.

- Players got used to "teching up" as fast as you can. I don´t have the complete details, but at least 2 towns where starting engines about 6 hours after server reset. With no oil, just for the heck of it.

- Players got used to feeding all their babies. That made the population jump too high at generations 3/4. With infinite free food that didn´t matter. Now it means your tribe jumps from 3/6 people to 9/18 in a heartbeat. And it is all over because it soons starts to make the water scarce.

- Players got used to put their own interests before the survival of the tribe. Afterall with free food you can start that nice building project and someone else will farm for you. And it is ok if you use four rabbits furs for you insulation instead of making a backpack for someone else, afterall everyone can catch his or her own rabbits. If you have so much water, may as well start making some fancy tech. Or even better, you can start a milkweed farm in town instead of looking for milkweed fifty tiles away. Want a nice suit to look cool? No problem! just 12 berry/carrot bowls, you can feed the shorn sheep and let the poop decay, we have too much mutton anyways.

As you can see it is all about adapting. Make better choices. Prepare good food in advance. Slow down the tech climb, you don´t even need metal to farm/hunt/bake and support a small tribe of 4/6 people. Learn to use flash fire instead of playing depending on the fastest axe in the game at 7 or so minutes. Hold down the tech because after the full metal set you don´t need the newcomen so fast, don´t get greedy on the iron. Stablish a solid cooked food base to support your tribe: pies/stew/bread/mutton/rabbits/milk/turkey/carnitas. Limit the niche veggies to a minimum (tomato, onion, pepper), control the carrots and berries and keep pumping those buckets full of milk and the corn peeled. Make smart and compartimented buildings for bakery and baby room, make yards for smith.

I believe a smart player can produce enough food to support about 8 players in total along his or her full life in terms of pipe consumption on average conditions (minimum clothing like hat and rabbit pants). Even if the 7 players standstill and do nothing at all with no fire. Even with the full 0.5 foodscale.
The only requirements for the players are to eat good food, don´t waste water and not to block the working player.

Ilka · 2020-04-14 14:16:54

Testo- THIS IS A PARENTING GAME.
Parenting is not about throwing 3/4 of your children in the trash.
And you never take anything that you have given, because the person you are taking something will feel aggrieved.

jasonrohrer · 2020-04-14 16:02:02

Being almost out of food is way more interesting than having way too much food.

Milk is currently totally broken, and could feed the whole village easily, but no one is drinking it. Instead, I see 50+ berry bushes in every village still used for direct eating (instead of being used to feed animals and thus make more water-efficient foods).

Anyway, I've lived a few lives myself where we were ALMOST out of water in an advanced village. It was tense and exciting, and a few of us banded together to save the day at the last minute by fetching a cart of buckets from a distant pond, to buy us more time for making the next rubber gasket.

That pretty much never happened before...

The point is this: what I did in that life, and the choices that I made, actually mattered to the fate of my village.

I was not bored.

AmberA · 2020-04-14 16:32:50

jasonrohrer wrote:

Being almost out of food is way more interesting than having way too much food.
Milk is currently totally broken, and could feed the whole village easily, but no one is drinking it. Instead, I see 50+ berry bushes in every village still used for direct eating (instead of being used to feed animals and thus make more water-efficient foods).
Anyway, I've lived a few lives myself where we were ALMOST out of water in an advanced village. It was tense and exciting, and a few of us banded together to save the day at the last minute by fetching a cart of buckets from a distant pond, to buy us more time for making the next rubber gasket.

That pretty much never happened before...

The point is this: what I did in that life, and the choices that I made, actually mattered to the fate of my village.
I was not bored.

I completely disagree with this but I'll explain why. Yeah that can be fun once...now do it again, and again and again. It's no longer fun. Almost every life is now like this and is not fun. It makes civilization building and parenting take a backseat to basic survival.

Rather than making existing systems harder, what we need is new content. Make beginning systems easier for new players and make new "end game" content. These are all the recipes that new players can't build and advanced players will happily focus on because it is new. Feast tables, oil rigs, radios. These are recipes that are fun and challenging but you keep making them harder and harder to accomplish because we can't make those things if we're starving.

We also can't teach new players if the town has no water, it makes for a bad new user experience. We're not saying get rid of the changes, we're just saying it needs some adjusting.

AmberA · 2020-04-14 16:36:30

Ilka wrote:

Testo- THIS IS A PARENTING GAME.
Parenting is not about throwing 3/4 of your children in the trash.
And you never take anything that you have given, because the person you are taking something will feel aggrieved.

And the fact that this is a PARENTING GAME is the reason I play. It's unique.

Twisted · 2020-04-14 16:39:45

jasonrohrer wrote:

Being almost out of food is way more interesting than having way too much food.

No it's not.

Ilka · 2020-04-14 17:20:23

Of course it is not.
Anyway, I don't know why feeding on milk should be more interesting than feeding on blueberries.

JonySky · 2020-04-14 17:22:56

jasonrohrer wrote:

Being almost out of food is way more interesting than having way too much food.

Can you explain to me how it is possible to create a trailer with this type of objects ... and say this phrase?

The_Anabaptist · 2020-04-14 17:45:36

JonySky wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
Being almost out of food is way more interesting than having way too much food.
Can you explain to me how it is possible to create a trailer with this type of objects ... and say this phrase?
https://i.postimg.cc/9QM2S7yg/tech1.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/pX1XJHSF/tech2.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/FHBpv7BH/tech3.jpg

To me the bigger question is: "If all this artwork has existed for what, 2 years now? Then why haven't the mechanics to build any of the images been developed yet?"

Picture 1: Is the monorail that fundamentally different from the railroad?
Picture 2: A car with a modern skin, a road with a modern skin, and yet they don't exist.
Picture 3: High tech walls, but walls none the less. A robot. Ok, I'm willing to give a pass on that robot...

The_Anabaptist

tobiasisahawk · 2020-04-14 17:54:16

jasonrohrer wrote:

Anyway, I've lived a few lives myself where we were ALMOST out of water in an advanced village. It was tense and exciting, and a few of us banded together to save the day at the last minute by fetching a cart of buckets from a distant pond, to buy us more time for making the next rubber gasket.

Restricting water isn't a great strategy for making the game fun. The issue is that it's a problem solved by a small number of people. A single trader bringing back rubber. A few people with a cart full of buckets getting water from ponds. Once the town has water again it's business as usual.

The other problem with water limits is that it restricts people from doing things to help their village survive. Don't grow crops other than corn, it wastes water. It's boring being in a village with water and food, because you know that you SHOULDN'T work because it's a waste of precious water.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Being almost out of food is way more interesting than having way too much food.

This is a better direction to go. Make water plentiful and go with the gradual devaluation of food. Towns will have to stockpile more and more food to survive. Now the town really has to come together. Regularly feeding and butchering sheeps to get enough mutton becomes important. Having bakers making enough pies to keep satisfying the demand is important. Having carpenters build boxes to store the food so the bakers have enough room to make the pies is important. Having tailors keeping the population clothed is important. You can get the same tense survival aspect, but now the whole town has to pitch in to solve it, it's not just something solved by a pro player on a horse.

Going with food devaluation kinda makes sense from a real world perspective. In the real world, as civilizations advance, food demand grows to keep the expanding population fed. Since the population of towns is mostly static, food devaluation works as a sort-of stand-in for a growing population.

Morti · 2020-04-14 17:56:25

The_Anabaptist wrote:

Picture 3: High tech walls, but walls none the less. A robot. Ok, I'm willing to give a pass on that robot...

That robot is powered by atoms! We don't pass on any thing, a tomically powered, round these parts!

Spoonwood · 2020-04-14 18:10:39

jasonrohrer wrote:

Being almost out of food is way more interesting than having way too much food.

If what you claimed held water, veteran players would have LONG, LONG ago started playing food variants by only eating certain foods in a life. Veteran players haven't done that. On top of that, being out of food means infant characters not getting fed. That especially means new players. That isn't interesting to new players or veterans in general. It leads to them quitting or asking for refunds.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Instead, I see 50+ berry bushes in every village still used for direct eating

This is just a straight out lie. You've hardly seen any villages with 50+ berry bushes.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Anyway, I've lived a few lives myself where we were ALMOST out of water in an advanced village.

I call nonsense here also.

jasonrohrer wrote:

The point is this: what I did in that life, and the choices that I made, actually mattered to the fate of my village.

No, it did not matter. The fate of the village was to die out. That happened or will happen soon.

jasonrohrer wrote:

I was not bored.

Even if accurate, so what? Did you purchase the game? Because if you didn't, you're not a paying customer.

Jason is chiming in here, because he doesn't know how to take negative feedback correctly. Instead, he here argues with player's preferences. Again, the process here is NOT, as always, about satisfying people. And this game never had a foundation of satisfying people. It's why it's been a failure as it has been. And yes, failure, is the word I mean, since it never has come close to satisfying the goal of all servers close to full. And it never will fulfill that goal, because of the choices of the game designer which leave it uninteresting, such as it's *lack of fatherhood* and *lack of a focus on civilization building as advertised* and because it's update process is massively flawed.

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Constantly Starving is Bad Game Design

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