A Game of Child Abandonment

Karrots · 2020-04-19 20:06:08

Spoonwood wrote:

A problem is forced reproduction. Another problem is the high rate of players starting as babies. Players having the ability to choose to become parents would enhance their responsibility to take care of their children.

Spoon, you do realize before modern technology irl, you couldn't really.. choose to become pregnant? You could choose to have sex with the intention of pregnancy, but whether you get pregnant or not wasn't up to you.

In the same sense a woman could not want a child, have it anyway, and not be able to provide for it. Then she has to decide whether or not she can risk raising this child.

This struggle of having to choose bc you can't support all your kids is reflected in game, and I think it's a nice touch of realism that makes the chosen child so much more important.
Similarly, the "You are Hope" situation is another derivative from not being able to force or prevent pregnancy, and has become a big part of the OHOL community.

It's not a problem, it's a part of the game.

Spoonwood · 2020-04-19 20:39:19

Karrots wrote:

Spoon, you do realize before modern technology irl, you couldn't really.. choose to become pregnant?

After what I wrote above, I wrote this in response to Coconut Fruit:

Spoonwood wrote:

And *each* player after the first one only gets born as a child only if Adam and Eve agreed to have the possibility of producing *one* child (every extra child requires a verbal contract between the mother and the father).

I'll edit the comment your referenced.

Karrots wrote:

This struggle of having to choose bc you can't support all your kids is reflected in game, and I think it's a nice touch of realism that makes the chosen child so much more important.

This isn't a game advertised as one being about special children. And it's promoted to whoever buys it, not some sort of special group.

Karrots wrote:

Similarly, the "You are Hope" situation is another derivative from not being able to force or prevent pregnancy, and has become a big part of the OHOL community.

I'm pretty sure that legally speaking OHOL and You are Hope are separate entities. I'm also rather sure that they are different games. I guess you missed the part where Jason was talking about taking legal action the You are Hope people also.

Karrots wrote:

It's not a problem, it's a part of the game.

It's advertised as a game of parenting. The game working such that it forces players to intentionally abandon children before they can support their own self leaves that child with NO prospect of survival. There is NO parenting whatsoever in abandoning children, once abandonment has happened. None at all.

No opportunity for survival in a survival game implies that the game is not what it's advertisement proclaims it as.

And players having sufficient reason to not parent in a game that is supposed to be about parenting also shows that the game is not as it proclaims to be.

Child abandonment has been in the game before, because of a conscious design decision? Dogs that didn't die were in the game before and so were dozens of other things which no longer exist, and plenty of them have been problems. Thus, the mere existence of some state of the game by itself, does not entail that state as a non-problem.

The game has a recurring problem in that it has had times when feeding every child was unwise, no matter one's strategy. The game clearly has a limitation on it's possible player population when such happens, and thus it can't grow with smart players who understand it playing it. And there is no possibility for survival of plenty of players, and the whole notion of the game as one being one of parenting becomes seriously suspect, if not ending up as outright false.

testo · 2020-04-19 20:57:49

Karrots wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
A problem is forced reproduction. Another problem is the high rate of players starting as babies. Players having the ability to choose to become parents would enhance their responsibility to take care of their children.
Spoon, you do realize before modern technology irl, you couldn't really.. choose to become pregnant? You could choose to have sex with the intention of pregnancy, but whether you get pregnant or not wasn't up to you.
In the same sense a woman could not want a child, have it anyway, and not be able to provide for it. Then she has to decide whether or not she can risk raising this child.
This struggle of having to choose bc you can't support all your kids is reflected in game, and I think it's a nice touch of realism that makes the chosen child so much more important.
Similarly, the "You are Hope" situation is another derivative from not being able to force or prevent pregnancy, and has become a big part of the OHOL community.
It's not a problem, it's a part of the game.

This is not very accurate as you couldn´t choose your pregnancy but child mortality rate was also very high.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_mortality

We are not talking about SID nor death by starvation here, but babies that died mainly because the sanitary condition was not as good as today. Poverty conditions have always been a limiting factor but they have rarely been a condition for deciding if a child was or not viable.

Spoonwood is right in many regards: the game does not describe accurately the parenting nor pregnancy process (and the Eve throwing babies left and right is a laughable example). Do you really think it is normal for a female to get pregnant over 30 times from 14-40 years old? Are you not seeing a problem here?

I am not against starving a child to ensure another´s survival. I am against the game forcing you to do so as a normal way to develop an early town. Child abandonment happens only because player assignation to mothers and childhood are poorly designed, not because realism and omg rich dynamics drama so good.

Spoonwood · 2020-04-19 21:30:57

Lots of child starvation in this Eve's life: http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=6137390

And later: http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=6137390

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-04-19 21:32:28)

Glassius · 2020-04-19 21:31:25

Karrots wrote:

Spoon, you do realize before modern technology irl, you couldn't really.. choose to become pregnant? You could choose to have sex with the intention of pregnancy, but whether you get pregnant or not wasn't up to you.

It is not true.
1. People were often not having sex at all to prevent pregnancy.
2. Many sexual activities do not involve penetration. Such steps are common to young people before they decide to fulll intercourse.
3. Women are fertile only for 6 days per cycle. People were using it for their advantage. The oldest record is from year 388 with St. Augustine condemning Manichaeans for periodic abstinence to avoid pregnancy. But there is also a hint in Bible from IX-V century BC, that ancient Jews could understand fertile window. They were prohibiting sex during period and for following 7 days.

Leviticus 15, 28
When a woman is cleansed of her discharge, she must count off seven days, and after that she will be clean

4. Breastfeeding stops ovulation and people knew it. That should be implemented in game.
5. The knowledge about herbs preventing pregnancy was common. You can read in "Eve's Herbs" written by John M. Riddle. Funny is, eating wild carrot seeds prevents pregnancy. Maybe also include it in game?
6. Some says condoms were used in prehistoric times as far as 11 000 years BC, but for sure in ancient Egypt 1350 BC
7. People were pulling-out. It is funny, because it is better than fertility awareness and almost as good (chance of pregnancy in first year: perfect use: 4%, typical: 22%) as male condoms (2%, 18%)!

All of those were not 100% efficient. Even abstinency is believed to fail at least once . But hey, modern methods are neither. They're just better.

Even just an option for lowering the chance for child spam would be welcomed by many players.

Last edited by Glassius (2020-04-19 21:35:05)

DestinyCall · 2020-04-19 21:47:46

I would welcome more herbal medicine. A plant that can br harvested and consumed to cut your fertility in half or stop it entirely for five to ten minutes. Another herb that has the opposite effect, increasing your fertility for a period of time. Another plant that lower the cost of hungry work. And a plant that can be prepared to provide temporary or lifelong immunity to yellow fever.

These are just a few possibilities for medicinal herbs.

FishRfriendsnotfood · 2020-04-20 00:54:14

Glassius wrote:

Karrots wrote:
Spoon, you do realize before modern technology irl, you couldn't really.. choose to become pregnant? You could choose to have sex with the intention of pregnancy, but whether you get pregnant or not wasn't up to you.
It is not true.
1. People were often not having sex at all to prevent pregnancy.
2. Many sexual activities do not involve penetration. Such steps are common to young people before they decide to fulll intercourse.
3. Women are fertile only for 6 days per cycle. People were using it for their advantage. The oldest record is from year 388 with St. Augustine condemning Manichaeans for periodic abstinence to avoid pregnancy. But there is also a hint in Bible from IX-V century BC, that ancient Jews could understand fertile window. They were prohibiting sex during period and for following 7 days.
Leviticus 15, 28
When a woman is cleansed of her discharge, she must count off seven days, and after that she will be clean
4. Breastfeeding stops ovulation and people knew it. That should be implemented in game.
5. The knowledge about herbs preventing pregnancy was common. You can read in "Eve's Herbs" written by John M. Riddle. Funny is, eating wild carrot seeds prevents pregnancy. Maybe also include it in game?
6. Some says condoms were used in prehistoric times as far as 11 000 years BC, but for sure in ancient Egypt 1350 BC
7. People were pulling-out. It is funny, because it is better than fertility awareness and almost as good (chance of pregnancy in first year: perfect use: 4%, typical: 22%) as male condoms (2%, 18%)!
All of those were not 100% efficient. Even abstinency is believed to fail at least once . But hey, modern methods are neither. They're just better.
Even just an option for lowering the chance for child spam would be welcomed by many players.

Ovulation does not stop just because you are breast feeding. Plenty of women have gotten pregnant whilst exclusively breast feeding.
the 6 day fertility window refers to the MAX amount of time a sperm can live in the most optimum cervical fluid. 5 days is rare but not unheard of since female sperm lives longer than male sperm.
The Bible is not an accurate reference and should not be used in fact based arguments.

Last edited by FishRfriendsnotfood (2020-04-20 00:54:48)

testo · 2020-04-20 01:04:41

I found this article and seems an interesting read.

https://www.pandiahealth.com/resources/ … t-history/

testo · 2020-04-20 01:10:41

Also obligatory wikipedia read about birth control through history, abortion and miscarriage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_birth_control

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage

Because pregnancy is not just assigning a player to another.

Glassius · 2020-04-20 01:16:35

Yes, the ovulation stops due to breastfeeding. Exclusive breastfeeding is in fact a better contraception than male condom.

6 days of fertile window is max 5 days of sperm and 24 hours between ovulation and egg's death.

Note I used the word "hint" for Bible source. Still, it is very intriguing they wanted to start having sex on exactly 11th day of cycle, right in the fertile window.

FishRfriendsnotfood · 2020-04-20 01:44:38

Glassius wrote:

Yes, the ovulation stops due to breastfeeding. Exclusive breastfeeding is in fact a better contraception than male condom.
6 days of fertile window is max 5 days of sperm and 24 hours between ovulation and egg's death.
Note I used the word "hint" for Bible source. Still, it is very intriguing they wanted to start having sex on exactly 11th day of cycle, right in the fertile window.

LAM is effective 95 to 98% so you cannot say that breastfeeding stops 100% of ovulation. Also thats only for the first 6 months tops. I appreciate what you are saying but dealing with fertility there is no absolutes. Unless azoospermia even then there are extraction techniques, or complete hysterectomy including ovaries.
Each cycle there is only a 20% of getting pregnant even in the most optimum condition.
What this game does not claim is that it's a game about trying to conceive. It just claims it's a parenting game.

Glassius · 2020-04-20 02:05:22

Conceive attempts or prevention should be included IMHO, to prevent baby spam and to help save dying settlements. It seems unfair, you are abandoning kids due to temporary famine and get no babies when you solve the food crisis. Also, baby spam makes newbies suffer the most.

Jason says it is creating funny sitiations and videos. He is right, it was fun, by the first time. You may be little angry after few situations like that

Last edited by Glassius (2020-04-20 02:07:18)

FishRfriendsnotfood · 2020-04-20 02:40:35

I do agree with you, and spoon for that matter. Forcing players to be constantly stressed with onslaught of babies isn't fun nor is it fun for the players constantly getting abandoned. There needs to exist more eves to prevent bottlenecks. Then the weakest eve line gradually loses fertility so then the 4 main families will be the strongest.

pein · 2020-04-20 03:27:52

well, glassius, that doesn't really oppose what I said

even small steps in healthcare are important steps
like dissecting dead bodies to see the inner organs helped out a lot
like creams to clean wounds and herbal medicines, sure it has evolved more since 1900 than in previous known history
but as for a game, you should really have an incremental growth which is kinda linear

since we don't have a pregnancy period, the SID babies come after they are born so abandoning kids is like choosing abortion in this case
I feed babies and let them follow even if it's hard, if I can manage to survive and they are smart enough to follow properly but when you can't feed yourself and can't plan for the next meal, then you shouldn't raise kids
kinda that's the reason I'm far ahead of other players in this game, I always know what I will eat next or I start moving, working ahead of time, I even tell others to hurry up, I literally never starve or like 1% of the time, but it's annoying when others die around you and you can't do anything about it, especially if you are male or old

to be fair, a lot of people did not even know how bbs are made, they just loved each other and they came
sex is animalistic instinct, and people figure it out even without being told, they didn't know how sperm works or menstruation
there were some people who had knowledge about it but kept it as a secret since they got profit from it, but it was really really late when people figured save ways of preventing pregnancy or increasing fertility

but you can't deny that people who aren't stressed and doing well can have more kids than those who are tired, malnutrition and stressed
so it would make sense that having kids is tied with technology, the early game you should work with a few people and when you can afford it you could have more

it's a gameplay issue, the latest issue happened cause Tarr forced to become Eve several times in a row so Jason tried to implement some randomness but ended up with this weird stuff

I think 10-15 people per town is enough, it could be more per family and it could be a requirement to have X people then allow to make a new outpost with iron mine, this homeland nonsense really hurts outposts
And the biggest issue is that people aren't useful, they don't worth much

we would need techs that can be unlocked by enough population, enough adults over time or enough elders same time, etc.
also, we would need a renewable resource system where you would require enough population to cope with the work o you lose out on resources.

Last edited by pein (2020-04-20 03:28:37)

One Hour One Life Forums

#26 2020-04-19 20:06:08

Re: A Game of Child Abandonment

#27 2020-04-19 20:39:19

Re: A Game of Child Abandonment

#28 2020-04-19 20:57:49

Re: A Game of Child Abandonment

#29 2020-04-19 21:30:57

Re: A Game of Child Abandonment

#30 2020-04-19 21:31:25

Re: A Game of Child Abandonment

#31 2020-04-19 21:47:46

Re: A Game of Child Abandonment

#32 2020-04-20 00:54:14

Re: A Game of Child Abandonment

#33 2020-04-20 01:04:41

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#34 2020-04-20 01:10:41

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#35 2020-04-20 01:16:35

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#36 2020-04-20 01:44:38

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#37 2020-04-20 02:05:22

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#38 2020-04-20 02:40:35

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#39 2020-04-20 03:27:52

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