Has anyone tried using fences like Jason says?

testo · 2020-04-27 18:23:54

Whatever wrote:

testo wrote:
... even if that is done with the authors resources and time and while he adds more to the "village" than others (I am talking about making airplanes or cars on a property fenced area).
yes cars and airplanes, every village needs them, they are super useful and help everyone and its not like the oil that you need to get that iron is limited

Sorry sir, I hope you understand the deep respect I have for your job with hetuw.

That being said, the question here is exactly what you propose. Is it really against the town if I make a car/plane in a fence with iron I got myself? Is it right if I work more than others and also make the car? Is it never right even though I am using resources that will never be used before the town dies anyways? Is it wrong if I go to a dead city and pick an engine left behind, make a car and fence it at my homeplace?

Whatever wrote:

testo wrote:
I will, however, remind you that the whole economy system that allows us to play this game and to comunicate throught the internet is not really based on "what is justified" or not, but rather on individualism, property and selfishness.
people dont play games to experience the flaws of the real world

I mean your second sentence actually shows how ridiculous and stupid the herd mentality is: we do play to have fun, not to make a perfect efficient world where we make a town survive with our limited resources. Is it wrong to have fun with your car if you managed to get it yourself? I read Slinky somewhere here with the line "...nothing is yours...". Is anyone here proposing the perfect way to play the game and telling exactly what everyone needs and how to use it or not? I think there is no doubt the main goal to play an electronic game is to have fun. And yet I would say it is unlikely that we can get a full agreement on what fun is and what makes something fun for everyone here. But for some reason some people feel entitled to decide what others shouldn´t do ingame even though it doesn´t affect them in any possible way.

Jojigirl · 2020-04-27 20:20:20

DestinyCall wrote:

Funny you should mention being "damned", because that's probably what will happen if you take that kind of attitude attitude into the game ... LOL.
From where I'm sitting, you're the one who is expecting privileged treatment. I paid for this game, same as you, Joji. Don't act like that makes you somebody special.

You think I am expecting privileged treatment by using an in-game feature? lmao You must have been high as hell when you wrote that! I can't take you seriously anymore, you're speaking like a true sheep to the mob mentality! Eesh.

I'm finished with this conversation, I and others will use property fences if we choose to do so. I encourage more people to make even more fences during their lives just to piss off these controlling buffoons.

Last edited by Jojigirl (2020-04-27 20:22:27)

Jamie · 2020-04-28 00:55:00

So I skimmed, Apologies if I misread some things.

So the general consensus is Fences can be good but it's alot of work. I get that, I couldn't even set one one up because villagers kept taking it down.

Another thing was lack of time and not really caring about a village. You CAN be more efficient with fences but it's more work then worth it and not likely to last more then your lifetime.

Do we need some added benefit to Fences to encourage people to maintain properties long term. What if certain stuff detoriated if left in public land.

That way you'd be required to do more work to maintain large berry farms in the middle of town. If a fence was around it, You'd need less resources.

Coconut Fruit · 2020-04-28 01:02:25

Jamie wrote:

Do we need some added benefit to Fences to encourage people to maintain properties long term.

Better question would be: do properties are really interesting? Do people want to have their own properties instead of sharing everything with their family?
I don't think they are interesting, otherwise we would see them more often. I'm not into having a property at all.

pein · 2020-04-28 03:18:35

They require no upkeep so no commitment, if you would have to buy the territory and pay the upkeep to maintain then you either actively keep up or you move out of it.
Also can be any size anywhere, but once you make one others make another and it's a complete mess.
They are made fast before others could object, I really hate them right next to something I need access to. So their position should be changeable or fixed outside of well range, it could be simpler, like every person or family (a mom and her kids) needs one for some reason, they can make a new one if they start new family.
It has to have a gameplay reason to own things. Like a bed that would charge up on it's own and you need to sleep on it for a few seconds to load the charges. Then to avoid any arguments, you wouldn't share your bed, you would try to have one for each person. It could also track the number of people in town.

In ONI they had rooms which needed extra additions for a bonus. Like bathroom, bedroom, diner, etc.

Also, it could have a separate layer of items that you buy the elements from a market and the products are owned by you only and you can sell them for profit and get access to other elements that are yours only.

It could be enjoyable if you could open a small shop like wild west style small towns with buildings in a row.

fug · 2020-04-28 04:34:38

If fences were good they'd be used. Jason is just trying to bait people into playing the game in his vision instead of making them good enough to actually be useful.

Tacos were terrible and he decided to buff them. Guess what happened? More tacos. Last month players ate 2.1k tacos, this last week alone they've eaten 1.3k pork tacos.

Players do reasonable things instead of doing random crap. Fencing in the well? That's some real dumb shit, aka why would players do that? Even with the ability for people to instantly scrap engines players don't do it because it neither makes sense at face value (I'm reducing the ability to farm in case my child is a griefer) and for the sole fact it doesn't make sense that your kid should be doing that anyways.

This would be like locking up your knives at night because your kid has potential to suddenly decide to stab you to death when you sleep. Not exactly something reasonable to think about unless you're Jason lol.

Dantox · 2020-04-28 14:16:44

fug wrote:

Tacos were terrible and he decided to buff them. Guess what happened? More tacos..

It is almost like if you reward players with doing something they will do that something!

15 years of game design and he still doesnt get this.

jasonrohrer · 2020-04-28 19:06:51

I don't necessarily see fences as a way to prevent griefing, because griefing is rare enough that it's not worth it. Fences have a cost, of course.

However, I do see fences as a solution to otherwise costly management issues.

In a game today, I started planting milkweed to make a lasso, and then my cousin took over when I was away. When I came back and started helping, he told me not to touch/pick it, because he was saving some for seeds, and had a plan for the rope.

He had different ideas for the milkweed than I did, and there was a wasteful (time-wise) communication exchange there, where we had to negotiate about the milkweed. In the end, I kinda just ignored his wishes and took what I needed to make the lasso.

If it had been fenced by me or by him, there would have been more clarity about the milkweed.

The question, of course, is whether the cost of fencing is worth it.

Another example is late-stage village life, where pretty much none of the berries should be eaten directly, but they still need to be grown in order to make more advanced foods. Or you're making popcorn and tortilla chips and tacos, and hungry players are eating the corn directly.

So you have this big berry field sitting there.... it's tempting.

Eating the berries directly isn't griefing. It's classic tragedy of the commons.

In terms of the cost of making a fence, that could be lowered somewhat (faster cure time, since the shaky phase is easy enough to chop down). It's pretty easy to click a curing fence by accident and cause the whole thing to start over again. Then again, there's the theory of homesteading to consider. BUT, shaky fences fulfil that theory well enough.

In terms of maintenance, those times could be increased too (elder fence removal is a thing, and the gate dies with the owner anyway).

In terms of the burden of passing ownership, "YOU OWN THIS" is easy enough to type, and you don't need to spell their name.

Maintaining family ownership is harder, but you generally wouldn't need/want to do that for management purposes. You'd do that (supposedly) to prevent griefers or to fence a whole town. But if you're trying to manage internal resources, and compartmentalize, and specialize, then you'd want only a few owners for each compartment.

jasonrohrer · 2020-04-28 19:07:38

Also, the new VISITOR and OWNER arrows are super helpful to keeping and managing a gate. Kinda like infinite range doorbells.

Dantox · 2020-04-28 19:43:48

jasonrohrer wrote:

I don't necessarily see fences as a way to prevent griefing, because griefing is rare enough that it's not worth it. Fences have a cost, of course.

I genuinly think this is a lie, you have proven in the past that the better way to prevent griefing was to fence things off. (And that you have actually made griefing to be more common and damaging trough recent changes)

After all, you added the sword in the same update that property fences, that is if you still remember that the sword is still in the game.

Also, using property fences to resolve managing problems seems like a rookie mistake done by any new company would make (Things are not getting better if you isolate yourself and focus only to your work). If you want players to not waste or get in the way of others player add more alternatives so they can communicate without necessarily talking. Fencing your work-place will only bring misunderstandings and with that problems. If you want an example for this check out some of the recent posts of a guy trying to make tacos and getting cursed for it.

People have suggested some kinf of bill board to specify what player does what (Not my thing honestly, i would prefer more job-themed hats)

DestinyCall · 2020-04-28 19:59:15

jasonrohrer wrote:

He had different ideas for the milkweed than I did, and there was a wasteful (time-wise) communication exchange there, where we had to negotiate about the milkweed. In the end, I kinda just ignored his wishes and took what I needed to make the lasso.

Perfect opportunity for trade and you missed it.

Dantox · 2020-04-28 20:07:44

DestinyCall wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
He had different ideas for the milkweed than I did, and there was a wasteful (time-wise) communication exchange there, where we had to negotiate about the milkweed. In the end, I kinda just ignored his wishes and took what I needed to make the lasso.
Perfect opportunity for trade and you missed it.

Then he wonders why there is no trade in the game, the creator isnt even willing to do it lol.

DestinyCall · 2020-04-28 20:12:15

Dantox wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
jasonrohrer wrote:
He had different ideas for the milkweed than I did, and there was a wasteful (time-wise) communication exchange there, where we had to negotiate about the milkweed. In the end, I kinda just ignored his wishes and took what I needed to make the lasso.
Perfect opportunity for trade and you missed it.
Then he wonders why there is no trade in the game, the creator isnt even willing to do it lol.

Should have used more property fences obviously.

Legs · 2020-04-28 20:26:16

Even with the homeland update nobody really *trades* they just travel around with horse carts gifting resources to all the villages.

fug · 2020-04-28 21:58:57

In a world where you bounce between teams and are required to work together the best meta is to just share and gift things so everyone can continue to function as normal.

By shitting on others I proceed to shit upon myself which does neither of us any good. As long as we're either not bound to a race (bad because then people grief if they're white to gtfo) or care more about a city than a lineage (thus leading to people just gifting to a city to keep it going) we'll be in this same fiasco.

Due to the longstanding nerfs to lineages throughout the game history it just has always made more sense to play for areas vs families so there's no reason for war, stealing, etc.

jasonrohrer · 2020-04-28 22:31:05

That's definitely a problem, Fug....

But I kinda see it from a different angle. The problem is that the "weight" of what happens "right now" in this particular life is no larger than the weight of what will happen later, in future lives.

So even if you really care about gene score (for example), doing something desperate to keep your family alive in this life will only gain you points by potentially losing you points in future lives (when you're born into the family that you victimized in your desperation).

However, there's something else at play:

RIGHT NOW is certain, whereas the future (and future lives) are unknown.

If you have a baby that will die of starvation right now, you know you will lose points for that young death, with certainty. If you rob from another family to save your baby, you may or may not be born into that family next life.

I do believe that if the "right now" really really really mattered to players, they'd behave like it mattered, and be desperate, and all that. I just don't think it matters too much to most people. You, in particular Fug, have said you don't give a flying hoot about gene score.

And I'm not even sure that locking people into one family forever, which would be an extreme measure, would change that too much....

Anyway, there are certainly other confounding factors, like the huge surpluses of almost every resource that we had in the recent past, etc.

I think most people DO care about the "right now" in that they want to live and not die.

antking:]# · 2020-04-28 22:38:55

Jason I had a great Idea that would make fences better....

Firstly they would need to be opened by any one, this is because it is very annoying and tedious to let everyone own a fence
Now that everyone can open up a fence even without being a owner, the owner needs a way to protect themselves, so what if when a nonowner opens up a fence all owners will get a ping, that indicates a nonowner has opened up the fence
Finally have a owner be a posy in his or her own fence... when a owner is inside their fenced area, they will essentially become their own posy, and will able to solo kill any none owners in their area

pein · 2020-04-29 01:36:28

Jason, what about these things:

-Upgrade fences with adobe or stone or similar lasting stuff. Similar to rust where you got twigs, boards, stone, sheet metal and armoured wall. I could imagine making a fence as scaffolding for a permanent building or later.
-Something like vending machines where you set a price and people can actually trade stuff. Like one buttlog for a rope or something. Would be a wall piece with both side interaction and they can only take out the item when they put the required item in it. No one else can take it for a few seconds.
-Limit fence shape somehow. I think best would be setting 4 corners so it's always a rectangle or square and the pieces in between would connect up.
-Limit where they can be. No property fence 20x20 around the family well. this would make towns look better since people would share the middle and build fence outside.
-Limit thievery and trolls. A way to disarm, unmount or slow people down if they don't want to cooperate.

Griefing is quite common, as a fast worker people steal my stuff all the time and it's annoying.
There is no trade because we don't own stuff.
What about having a timer on crafting that if you interact with something inside your fence, others can't take it for 5 minutes?
After that is a free deal, but this way would solve the horse thiefs and people who take your taco materials or boards or whatever.
Maybe if you feed the horse with grain, nobody can take it away from you for 10 minutes. They have to ask you if you allow it. "I share this" puts back to shared status.

The trade would need a way to create profit, by creating surplus of resources and exchange them, or having a currency that can give you exclusive items or ownership of a territory and items in it.
Lets say I make 8 pies, I sell it for people, they go in debt. I can let their debt go away or ask them to do a task for the currency.
A quest system of some sorts. "get me 2 butt logs, reward a pie". Now this isn't something that would worth for me and isn't something that is too hard. Someone will chop down 2 pines, get the butt logs, transport it, he gets the pie in return. It would keep the town going.
'Get me 8 branches, reward a pack", "Get me 6 firewood, reward a knife"

Basically a box with 2 compartments. You put in a reward, and choose a counter value. Set "first in, first served" or "multiple".
It only gives it back to you, it can time out in 15 minutes if not in an active property wall.

Last edited by pein (2020-04-29 06:11:59)

schmloo · 2020-04-29 03:52:57

Yes, ever since they came out they’ve been tested and always fail. Most often if you try to pass it down, it’s very hit or miss that you pass it down to someone reliable, who will even use it to help the town. Long-term reliability? Absolutely impossible. Griefers are and always have been a growing factor. What’s also very likely to happen is that you’ll pass it down to some mum who decided that this is the “family home, yay!” and voila, your taco station is now the property of basically everyone!

Don’t think just because you do it, it will work this time, because I’d say that’s a form of arrogance. Listen to the people that know how it works, and build on that.

Crumpaloo · 2020-04-29 04:01:22

schmloo wrote:

Yes, ever since they came out they’ve been tested and always fail. Most often if you try to pass it down, it’s very hit or miss that you pass it down to someone reliable, who will even use it to help the town. Long-term reliability? Absolutely impossible. Griefers are and always have been a growing factor. What’s also very likely to happen is that you’ll pass it down to some mum who decided that this is the “family home, yay!” and voila, your taco station is now the property of basically everyone!
Don’t think just because you do it, it will work this time, because I’d say that’s a form of arrogance. Listen to the people that know how it works, and build on that.

Yeah, only way i could see this being done is via 3rd party apps like discord, and somehow coordinating with other experienced players that you want someone at x time to hold the property fence.

schmloo · 2020-04-29 04:14:53

Crumpaloo wrote:

schmloo wrote:
Yes, ever since they came out they’ve been tested and always fail. Most often if you try to pass it down, it’s very hit or miss that you pass it down to someone reliable, who will even use it to help the town. Long-term reliability? Absolutely impossible. Griefers are and always have been a growing factor. What’s also very likely to happen is that you’ll pass it down to some mum who decided that this is the “family home, yay!” and voila, your taco station is now the property of basically everyone!
Don’t think just because you do it, it will work this time, because I’d say that’s a form of arrogance. Listen to the people that know how it works, and build on that.
Yeah, only way i could see this being done is via 3rd party apps like discord, and somehow coordinating with other experienced players that you want someone at x time to hold the property fence.

If you can organise a group that can dedicate that timesink into maintaining that while not depriving the town of resources, and actually benefiting the town better than shared resources, then go ahead. Trusting strangers in this game is straight out of the window anyway, by the way everyone has gotten used to treating each other.

EDIT: Also bear in mind that the more experienced players carry simple to mid-level jobs, the less things there will be for newer players to do and therefore more boredom and laziness.

Last edited by schmloo (2020-04-29 04:17:04)

Dantox · 2020-04-29 05:57:08

antking:]# wrote:

Jason I had a great Idea that would make fences better....
Firstly they would need to be opened by any one, this is because it is very annoying and tedious to let everyone own a fence
Now that everyone can open up a fence even without being a owner, the owner needs a way to protect themselves, so what if when a nonowner opens up a fence all owners will get a ping, that indicates a nonowner has opened up the fence
Finally have a owner be a posy in his or her own fence... when a owner is inside their fenced area, they will essentially become their own posy, and will able to solo kill any none owners in their area

I dont know why i am feeling a strong deja vu here...

I am sorry, but letting *property* fences being public to anyone kind of defeats the whole purpose here to the point that they become purely decorative.

DestinyCall · 2020-04-29 07:59:32

Dantox wrote:

I am sorry, but letting *property* fences being public to anyone kind of defeats the whole purpose here to the point that they become purely decorative.

Property fences are not actually owned by anyone. They are just unbreakable fences. It is the GATE that is owned by someone. So you could have various types of gates - private gate, public gate, family gate, hierarchy gate, trade gate, etc.

For example, a hierarchy-linked gate might only allow members of the same hierarchy open/close the gate. A family gate might be pre-loaded with family ownership so it lasts as long as the family remains alive. A public gate might act in the opposite way from a private gate - everyone starts as an owner, but villagers can be removed from ownership by any gate owner. So if you upset your neighbor, you can get black-listed.

jasonrohrer · 2020-04-29 19:51:11

Antking, I really like the thinking there.

There is already a DING when a visitor comes to your fence, so something similar could work here.

The solo kill idea idea is a really nice one..... but there's a small problem. The game doesn't currently "know" about property, in terms of what's inside and what's outside. A fence is just an unbreakable wall. A gate is just a tile that limits who can use it. You can use those things to make property, but there is no "property" in the game.

Now, there could be something where passing through a gate owned by someone makes you vulnerable to solo kills by them, and passing back through it again makes you not vulnerable again. That would work for most simple property layouts with one gate, but you could imagine it getting confusing for more complicated layouts.

All that said, I think there are other reasons people aren't making property beyond just these factors that make it hard to use..... property just isn't needed. They aren't using leadership either, right? And leadership has even been made somewhat automatic (your mother is your default leader, etc).

In the rift, property was needed, and everybody used it for a while there.

You think making and maintaining a gate is too much of a pain?

Have you ever tried making a diesel engine? Yet every town eventually has one of those, right? Because it's necessary.

Players are very quick to sort out the optimal, necessary things (no matter how complex or hard to use) from the sub-optimal, unnecessary things (no matter how simple they are to use).

I think that some of the recent food changes have made access control more necessary than it used to be, but perhaps not quite necessary enough.

I would really like to see a village layout with two guys in charge of farming a tightly-controlled patch of berries and carrots, and they deliver the results to the shepherds and bakers, who also tightly control their areas. The shepherd delivers wool to the clothing makers and mutton to the bakers, and returns dung to the berry growers.

If you're hungry, you will need to go to the "output window" of the bakery, and NOT wander through the berry/carrot fields helping yourself to a terribly inefficient snack.

Furthermore, each of these areas would "train up" apprentices to inherit them and keep them going for the next generation.

Spoonwood · 2020-04-29 20:58:48

jasonrohrer wrote:

Have you ever tried making a diesel engine? Yet every town eventually has one of those, right? Because it's necessary.

Diesel engines were more common than property fences have been from my read, when diesel water pumps were NOT necessary. So, no, it's not because such is necessary. It's because such is not attractive.

Additionally, NOTHING has ever been necessary within the context of your game from an objective point of view, because there never has been an end state or "goal" of the game. So, no one does anything because it's necessary in the game. They only do X, Y, or Z, because they want to do X, Y, or Z, or because doing X, Y, or Z is necessary to achieving something else.

Jason's talk of needing something to be 'necessary' for players to do such, thus is and has always been hollow.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Players are very quick to sort out the optimal, necessary things (no matter how complex or hard to use) from the sub-optimal, unnecessary things (no matter how simple they are to use).

Only for what they choose as their goals in the game.

jasonrohrer wrote:

I would really like to see a village layout with two guys in charge of farming a tightly-controlled patch of berries and carrots, and they deliver the results to the shepherds and bakers, who also tightly control their areas. The shepherd delivers wool to the clothing makers and mutton to the bakers, and returns dung to the berry growers.

Then take on the responsibility and play that way yourself. You only get to choose your own goals. You control the way you play and little more. You control only yourself in the end.

Trying to get many others to play the way you want them to though, just shows how little responsibility you want players to take on themselves and how little you respect them having independent minds to make their own (non-harmful) choices.

And for the record, good games don't try to force players into a playsytle on the basis of some a priori guess. Good games have things like difficulty levels, different modes, different ways of winning the game, even encourage modding, and even encourage variant playstyles so that players can play as they like.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-04-29 21:01:49)

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