New idea for killing

jasonrohrer · 2020-05-07 19:40:53

What if:

The posse size needed to kill you is based on how many allies you have (from the leadership tree).

So, if you have 5 allies, a posse of 5 will be needed to kill you.

If you have a lot of allies, you are essentially immune to being killed. Safety in numbers.

But if you have a high-level leader exile you, suddenly you have no allies (all your old allies see you as exiled, because they are following that leader).

If you have no allies, the min posse size is 1, which means that anyone can kill you.

This will of course tie in to the new "perpetual leadership" changes where a new leader is auto-picked when a leader dies. So most people will have allies most of the time, and be safe from murder.

If there's a griefer around who is stealing or whatever, killing them will be a 2-step process:

1. Top leader exiles them.

2. Someone solo kills them.

Now, this can obviously be abused by a bad leader. That bad leader can exile and then kill anyone at will. They can reign with a bloody fist. However, people can pick a new leader at any time, effectively reducing that bad leader's allies to 0, and making them vulnerable to solo kills themselves. Meanwhile, the people who have grouped up under a different leader can no longer be killed by the bad leader, because they have allies that he cannot control anymore.

This also still allows leaderless people to kill each other, or duel, or whatever. But if they come into town, the can't pick people off who are banded together, and they themselves are vulnerable to being killed by anyone in town unless they join the group.

One problem:

What if the person you are trying to kill has allies via a different leader? If griefers band together into a group of 4, for example, they could require a posse of 4 to kill them. That might be okay, since they themselves wouldn't be killing, but just causing trouble other ways.

Another problem: you are part of a group in a big town with lots of allies, and you travel to a different town to cause trouble. I think we probably need to count your allies in some limited radius.

Could also be:

min posse size
=
number of allies
-
number of people who see you as exiled

Thus, a band of four griefers have 4 allies, but if a larger group exiles them, they become vulnerable again. This might also help with the troublesome visitor from the other town.

Spoonwood · 2020-05-07 19:48:32

That won't matter. Death by wild animals and starvation exists. Players like Bobo are apparently willing to do things like use domestic boars and destroy multiple engines. It's only a matter of time until they use other destructive means also.

JackTreehorn · 2020-05-07 20:10:48

That sounds good! (safety in numbers)
In the case of the group of four from your own family emerging within the home zone.
It makes sense that it would require a group of four to kill them since it is a big deal having a rebellion pop up. (requiring a town effort to stop the rebellion.)

Home zones could be an answer for when this system will be applied i.e people travelling to different towns.
(This system should only be operational within your own home zone between your family members.)
You are only safe within your home zone and are not safe from other families visiting your home zone.
Thus we should have walls/fences and if a trader does come they should be watched by a guard.
if someone from your family targets you while gathering outside of your home zones (no mans land) you should be vulnerable then too.

Also outside this system normal killing mechanics should be in place -slows ect.

Last edited by JackTreehorn (2020-05-07 20:17:49)

Crumpaloo · 2020-05-07 20:18:36

Just bring back solo killing with a smarter foundation, i know this whole posse system was a big time sink but its been going nowhere for 2 whole months and people want REAL change that doesn't involve murdering eachother.

Last edited by Crumpaloo (2020-05-07 20:19:50)

JackTreehorn · 2020-05-07 20:26:08

Crumpaloo wrote:

Just bring back solo killing with a smarter foundation, i know this whole posse system was a big time sink but its been going nowhere for 2 whole months and people want REAL change that doesn't involve murdering eachother.

This sounds like that change we have been wanting. You should take a little time to think about the implications.
-It gives Hierarchies meaning
-it gives exiling people meaning
-It may give Home zones more meaning
-You will be able to solo kill a griefer just tell the king first.
-You may be able to solo kill other families, exiles and people not from your hierarchy when you catch them sneaking into town to cause trouble.

Last edited by JackTreehorn (2020-05-07 20:33:10)

pein · 2020-05-07 20:40:46

there are only bad leaders cause the requirements for becoming a leader means that you need to spend begging and threatening others to make you a leader, not like proving your skills or knowledge so you building on a meme system, duels will be even more meme than before

JackTreehorn · 2020-05-07 20:48:54

pein wrote:

there are only bad leaders cause the requirements for becoming a leader means that you need to spend begging and threatening others to make you a leader, not like proving your skills or knowledge so you building on a meme system, duels will be even more meme than before

Not really as there would be inherent leadership and hierarchy. No begging or threatening unless you want to start a rebellion.

Crumpaloo · 2020-05-07 20:51:37

JackTreehorn wrote:

Crumpaloo wrote:
Just bring back solo killing with a smarter foundation, i know this whole posse system was a big time sink but its been going nowhere for 2 whole months and people want REAL change that doesn't involve murdering eachother.
This sounds like that change we have been wanting. You should take a little time to think about the implications.
-It gives Hierarchies meaning
-it gives exiling people meaning
-It may give Home zones more meaning
-You will be able to solo kill a griefer just tell the king first.
-You may be able to solo kill other families, exiles and people not from your hierarchy when you catch them sneaking into town to cause trouble.

Jack, im honestly just sick of the posse updates is all, all this time being spent on a system that could now be getting, in part, scrapped in favor a thought experiment we dont even know will work?

The game itself should be getting love, because these recent updates are only for a tiny minority of people, while making the game worse for the rest, its just counter intuitive.

miskas · 2020-05-07 20:52:46

that's is a great idea! definitely a step in right direction.
I really like the homeland proposition, It solves both the problems Jason mentioned.

If griefers band together into a group of 4 they will have different homelands probably so at least 1 of their members would be an easy target.

Tipy · 2020-05-07 21:07:36

I think killing shouldn't be regulated by poses, auto aim, or warm up (the period between targetting somebody and being able to kill them not the bloody knife thing) just make murder how it was pre warswords

Leaders should be able to assign guards
Guards have special marking
They can use non lethals (battons for example)
A guard can batton a griefer which stuns them for a short period, leaving them unable to move or do anything. The guard can handcuff the stunned person leaving them unable to use anything till the cufs are removed and being allowed to be dragged, the guard can drag the criminal into jail. To prevent the jailed from just starving himself and getting reborn in the same town dying in jail would nake you area banned for a long time

Also what about a proper way of exiling people like make the current exile system a ''wanted'' system and make a new exile system where exiled people can't pick stuff in the homeland but only the top leader can do it or it requires a guard vote

Last edited by Tipy (2020-05-07 21:10:05)

Coconut Fruit · 2020-05-07 21:12:50

Connecting killing with leadership is a great idea in my opinion.
But only if leadership system works good. Currently it was pretty much dead content, but "perpetual leadership" may change it. I'm not sure how it will turn out to work, people rarery use "I follow you" command, gotta see it live and I will tell more.

Last edited by Coconut Fruit (2020-05-07 21:18:04)

Tipy · 2020-05-07 21:14:36

Yeah leadership really needs to be shown some love, it has a lot of potential and I really like the idea of it but it's way too shallow

Arcurus · 2020-05-07 21:24:49

if people would auto follow the one with the highest genetic score by default, there would be a higher chance that the leader knows actually what he does, escpecially if this would be connected to killing....

to groups from foreigners, why give them any protection in another homeland?

Last edited by Arcurus (2020-05-07 21:26:02)

ahead · 2020-05-07 21:29:20

Combat in ohol used to be completely equal, if both parties had weapons.
The thing is, griefers cheat, a griefer and a normal player are not on an equal plane, a griefer doesn't need to think about things that
aren't involved in griefing hell, leaching off of others is a good griefing tactic.
The current changes try and make this an unequal plane, with players having an upper hand, but there is no difference in the eyes of the game what is a griefer and what is a player.
Griefers will coordinate with each other, making it harder makes it take more time, but it will happen.
Best the system can do in this situation is give the majority an upper hand, but the way this has been done has a side effect of making combat very hard to engage, for both sides.
A griefer doesn't need combat to grief, but a player does need it to stop the griefer, so what if we had a system outside of combat, that dealt with this issue outside of combat?
Curses.

Yes, curses, the system we already have.

I think the curse system works perfectly fine, hell even if we had solo killing we'd now probably be fine because of this system.
Griefers don't play the game regularly, a normal player plays it more, they can curse more.
A group of griefers can't abuse the system to all exile other players, they're a minority, a very coordinated one, but still one.
They're coordinated enough to seize all medical items and weapons from a town before beginning their murder fest, but curses don't need to be coordinated nearly as much, but they still do.
The lack of coordination is the problem, making audio queues at what is happening, is a step in the right direction.
Hierarchies, with the leader being able to rapidly announce what is happening and what or who the issue is is a step in the right direction.
Griefers use modified clients, even the most basic and extremely limited zoom in/zoom out feature in the official client would help greatly.

~~But these are all just non game designer thoughts i had, heavily based on my preferences of the old system, and my dislike for my inability to solo kill, riddled with misspellings~~

Arcurus · 2020-05-07 21:46:11

jasonrohrer wrote:

What if:
...
One problem:
What if the person you are trying to kill has allies via a different leader? If griefers band together into a group of 4, for example, they could require a posse of 4 to kill them. That might be okay, since they themselves wouldn't be killing, but just causing trouble other ways.
Another problem: you are part of a group in a big town with lots of allies, and you travel to a different town to cause trouble. I think we probably need to count your allies in some limited radius.
....

To the problem(s):
- count allies only in your own hometown. if you go somewhere else you need to be careful

Additionally to make it easier to form posses, count the leaders allies automatically to the posse size and optionally alow him to announce "Guards" who also get the allies posse benefit.

Coconut Fruit · 2020-05-07 22:15:39

So, let's say an Eve has two kids - Aria and Lily. Aria has one kid Maya, and Lily has one kid John.
Eve dies, Aria becomes the leader because she is older. Lily has now no leader but one follower, if she had no kids she would be an easy target, unless she follows Aria or her kid.

I don't know, while connecting killing with leadership may feel good, it may be too unintuitive, unless we had only one big hierarchy per town. We don't know how many hierarchies are there in our family, our "allies" are always random people, the leader may as well be a griefer who kills you before you can change ur leader.

I don't know. Solo killing was simple and beauty. It had everything that we needed to fight against griefers, we could heal good people and always defend. If healing was buffed a little (one fleece would give 3 healing pads) it would be simple and perfect in my opinion.

antking:]# · 2020-05-07 22:21:37

I like this Idea, it solves the problem of not being able to solo kill, while also creating a safety in numbers

Alontae Balasa · 2020-05-07 22:33:24

I say try it! Sounds like a good idea, but we'll have to see how it works.

jasonrohrer · 2020-05-07 22:42:04

Coconut, in your example, all those kids and grandkids follow Eve automatically (currently---you follow your mother's leader if she has one, instead of following her).

So, before Eve dies, it's a flat hierarchy with Eve as lady, and Aria, Lily, Maya, and John as her direct followers.

When Eve dies, Aria takes over for Eve automatically, since she's oldest (in the update this week, not out yet). That means that Lily, May, and John now follow Aria.

If Maya has a BB, that BB follows Maya's leader, so she follows Aria as well.

Now, how do we know that Aria is a good choice for leader? What if she's a griefer? Well, we don't know for sure, but she did survive the longest, so that tells us something. And if she causes trouble as leader, the others can follow someone else. Like if she gives annoying orders, or exiles innocent people, etc.

Essentially: leadership by default, unless players opt-out (instead of the current system that requires people to opt in manually after their default leader dies).

Instead of getting complicated with homelands, it's easier (for now) just to use a simple radius. How many allies do you have within 30 tiles of you? How many enemies do you have within 30 tiles of you? Etc.

So if you leave home alone and wander into another city, you're at risk.

But if you bring an army with you, there's still safety in numbers.

This also makes it good to travel in pairs, so you're not vulnerable to solo killers lurking in the woods.

If we do "allies - enemies" to determine the posse size for you, there's a problem...

Imagine a village with 10 people total, and 4 of them are Bobo's followers. They are in the minority, so they should be powerless. If the 6 other people band together, they can exile Bobo + friends, even if they group up together. Bobo has 4 allies, but 6 enemies. Anyone can solo kill Bobo.

But what about the villagers? They all have 6 allies, and Bobo might exile them, giving them 4 enemies. We do 6 - 4 and get... 2. That means a posse of 2 is needed to kill a villager. But Bobo has 4 friends.... oops.

More thought is needed on the math here....

JackTreehorn · 2020-05-07 22:53:36

What about if the posse size needed to kill you is the number of allies you have. So if bobo has four allies it only takes the king or someone from his hierarchy to get four of his six followers to join to posse and put down the rebellion.

fighting between families could remain solo kill. So if a group from another town comes to your village you can solo kill them and they can solo kill you.

Last edited by JackTreehorn (2020-05-07 23:02:27)

Coconut Fruit · 2020-05-07 22:54:22

Yeah, that makes more sense.

What if you could follow only your family members? You couldn't exile other family members. This way you couldn't just go to other families and kill them. That means if you go to another family's town, you can be killed, but you can't kill their family members, and that's good I guess.

Coconut Fruit · 2020-05-07 22:59:57

Together with the system that doesn't allow you to join a posse if your last life was short and the system which doesn't allow to join a posse with your twins, bobo and his team could do nothing, because they would never spawn in the same family I guess.

jasonrohrer · 2020-05-07 23:01:42

Ah.... I think it will be something like this:

If your in-range allies equal or exceed your in-range enemies, than the normal posse-size stuff applies (based on 66% of the local, able-bodied population). In other words, you are kinda safe in numbers

But if your in-range enemies exceed your in-range allies, then you can be solo killed.

BTW.... allies are those that have the same top leader as you do, and don't currently see you as exiled. Enemies are those that see you as exiled (either they have exiled you or a leader above them has exiled you).

Cantface · 2020-05-07 23:04:21

Yes, complicate something that was already so convoluted that new players DEFINITELY won't understand how to do it! GENIUS!

Whoever said the old solo killing system was a problem was so wrong.

All the people that think this is a good idea, you better be on discord together for you to even have a chance once the killing squad comes for your town. They'll probably have their own hierarchy, crown and all.

antking:]# · 2020-05-07 23:07:46

Cantface wrote:

Yes, complicate something that was already so convoluted that new players DEFINITELY won't understand how to do it! GENIUS!

it is not that complicated, just think it about it like this....
the amount of Allies you have = how big the posse has to be to kill you
If you are exiled = you have no Allies you can be solo killed

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#1 2020-05-07 19:40:53

New idea for killing

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Re: New idea for killing

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Re: New idea for killing

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#14 2020-05-07 21:29:20

Re: New idea for killing

Yes, curses, the system we already have.

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