Update: In Perpetuity

Arcurus · 2020-05-12 08:15:47

fug wrote:

Bobo is like toxic and every other troll previously. He needs attention because his mother doesn't love him and his stepdad beats him....

yea his mother was drinking far too much wine and his stepdad didnt help him either....

See here for the proof:
https://youtu.be/-HL6ZWCutDs?t=172

jasonrohrer · 2020-05-12 19:07:05

FYI, I'm not trying to "stop bobo"

But I am trying to give you, the players, a way to deal with him.... if you want to.

It should not be impossible for YOU to stop him.

It kinda was in the past. I don't think it is anymore.

Spoonwood · 2020-05-12 21:05:56

jasonrohrer wrote:

FYI, I'm not trying to "stop bobo"
But I am trying to give you, the players, a way to deal with him.... if you want to.

It should not be impossible for YOU to stop him.

It kinda was in the past. I don't think it is anymore.

Jason advertises the game as about parenting and civilization building. Bobo is clearly doing neither and trying to inhibit players doing either. Survival also isn't one of Bobo's goals either, and he tries to inhibit other players trying to survive for as long as they can.

Jason's apathy about Bobo shows that he not only doesn't give a damn about whether or not players play in accordance with the the spirit or against that spirit of what got advertised, but also that the words 'parenting', 'civilization building', and 'survival' have no substantial meaning whatosever and are just buzzwords.

Really, the game should just get advertised as one about death and destruction.

Alterior · 2020-05-13 00:47:26

Spoonwood wrote:

Jason advertises the game as about parenting and civilization building. Bobo is clearly doing neither and trying to inhibit players doing either. Survival also isn't one of Bobo's goals either, and he tries to inhibit other players trying to survive for as long as they can.
Jason's apathy about Bobo shows that he not only doesn't give a damn about whether or not players play in accordance with the the spirit or against that spirit of what got advertised, but also that the words 'parenting', 'civilization building', and 'survival' have no substantial meaning whatosever and are just buzzwords.
Really, the game should just get advertised as one about death and destruction.

That's not apathy you're seeing. If it were apathy, it wouldn't be mentioned and nothing would be done about the situation.

The idea is that players should be able, as a group, to decide what is acceptable and unacceptable behaviour.

There will always be another Bobo, lumping the responsibility of dealing with that onto the developer is a never-ending community management task, one that will rear its head over and over and over again.
A task that will take away from their ability to fix bugs and develop new and existing systems.
It's an inefficient use of development time and it doesn't solve the problem.

When the situation comes about that Bobo is doing something that players cannot do anything about, that's a Jason problem.

If there is a player that is driving you absolutely crazy and you just don't want to play with them ever again, that's what curses are for.

Spoonwood · 2020-05-13 01:31:20

Alterior wrote:

There will always be another Bobo, lumping the responsibility of dealing with that onto the developer is a never-ending community management task, one that will rear its head over and over and over again.
A task that will take away from their ability to fix bugs and develop new and existing systems.
It's an inefficient use of development time and it doesn't solve the problem.

There is no system for the players to ban Bobo or another such person permanently.

Alterior wrote:

If there is a player that is driving you absolutely crazy and you just don't want to play with them ever again, that's what curses are for.

No, it's not. Curses are not permanent. They also don't take effect when you're not playing. You can't curse a player so that they don't play in an area that you built up, nor can you curse a player such that they won't ever interact with any of your descendants.

Edit: You also seem to have forgotten, or not known that cursing a player isn't even possible until you can spell 'curse X' where X is their name, and it could be a long name.

I don't think you're lying. But, you fall for the same delusional thinking that Jason either engages in or wants you to engage in. That the players have the means to resolve this. They don't. If they did, Bobo's YouTube channel would have long ago sufficed for getting rid of him from playing with anyone that has seen it in the game, and from him impacting their descendants in any way also. Because it's more than enough evidence that he plays destructively and intends to do so in the future... and you're fooling yourself if you think he won't succeed.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-05-13 01:39:24)

Alterior · 2020-05-13 02:41:46

Spoonwood wrote:

There is no system for the players to ban Bobo or another such person permanently.

Even if there were, even if curses eventually suspended an account, there would be more accounts. You know Bobo has more than one right? Because curses are kinda like a soft ban. Bobo spends a long time in Donkeytown.

The most effective solution for people like Bobo in a game like this, are systems designed so that players can collectively and effectively deal with destructive behaviour as it occurs without developer input.

Spoonwood wrote:

Alterior wrote:
If there is a player that is driving you absolutely crazy and you just don't want to play with them ever again, that's what curses are for.
No, it's not. Curses are not permanent. They also don't take effect when you're not playing. You can't curse a player so that they don't play in an area that you built up, nor can you curse a player such that they won't ever interact with any of your descendants.

You don't get to decide what happens to your descendants or your work once you're dead. That's never been the intent of the design as far as I can see.
The idea isn't that your descendants must play as you dictate.
They're not permanent because people can and often do change with time. You can always curse again those that don't change.

Spoonwood wrote:

Edit: You also seem to have forgotten, or not known that cursing a player isn't even possible until you can spell 'curse X' where X is their name, and it could be a long name.
I don't think you're lying. But, you fall for the same delusional thinking that Jason either engages in or wants you to engage in. That the players have the means to resolve this. They don't. If they did, Bobo's YouTube channel would have long ago sufficed for getting rid of him from playing with anyone that has seen it in the game, and from him impacting their descendants in any way also. Because it's more than enough evidence that he plays destructively and intends to do so in the future... and you're fooling yourself if you think he won't succeed.

I have watched a family identify and dispatch Bobo and posse. Which implies the tools for dealing with behaviour like that might be there. I haven't seen a family overthrow a tyrant leader yet, but I think the tools are already there and it's only a matter of time before players figure out it's possible.

I think the delusional thinking might be game design. I think like a game designer, because I am one. I understand the ramifications of design decisions. I studied them, have made many of my own and have watched design decisions of mine and of other people I have met play out in hundreds of games.

I understand the desire for a system to be in place to nuke from orbit anyone that dare utter the name Bobo in game, but, it's probable that a system like that would be ineffective at deterring the behaviour you despise. It'd probably be really cathartic for a while though.

Spoonwood · 2020-05-13 06:32:30

Alterior wrote:

Even if there were, even if curses eventually suspended an account, there would be more accounts. You know Bobo has more than one right?

I'm well aware of such a claim about Bobo, but I haven't confirmed that he has non-identitical hashes used in his videos. Every separate account costs money. There's a finite amount of money that people will spend on such a game, so all of them could get banned over time. Also, I think there's such a thing as banning internet protocol addresses.

Alterior wrote:

Bobo spends a long time in Donkeytown.

That's not what I read on the discord. I don't know for myself though by any means.

Alterior wrote:

The most effective solution for people like Bobo in a game like this, are systems designed so that players can collectively and effectively deal with destructive behaviour as it occurs without developer input.

People have compared this game to Space Station 13. I haven't played it, but as I understand that game, they have bans for things. It's far more successful than OHOL has ever been.

Alterior wrote:

You don't get to decide what happens to your descendants or your work once you're dead. That's never been the intent of the design as far as I can see.

We're talking about protecting descendants. Your ancestors probably tried to protect their descendants from Nazis and National Socialism (some of them perhaps dying in the process). I think by and large that worked. What protection can OHOL players provide to their descendants from people like Bobo?

Alterior wrote:

I think the delusional thinking might be game design. I think like a game designer, because I am one. I understand the ramifications of design decisions. I studied them, have made many of my own and have watched design decisions of mine and of other people I have met play out in hundreds of games.

You simply don't understand all of the ramifications of game design. No one does. If anyone did, then playtesting would be unnecessary and the only sorts of bugs that would exist would amount to typos. And that's just nonsense.

Alterior wrote:

I understand the desire for a system to be in place to nuke from orbit anyone that dare utter the name Bobo in game, but, it's probable that a system like that would be ineffective at deterring the behaviour you despise.

Because Bobo could purchase an infinite amount of accounts, or have an infinite amount of accounts purchased for him? Please. It's just nonsense to think that he could. There does exist a limit to how many accounts such a player could buy. Bans over time can work. And really, your claim about probability has no sample size, so it's not even with foundations. It's just another use of a buzzword to make a claim look credible.

And again, that Jason isn't trying to stop Bobo just shows that he doesn't care if players are trying to inhibit others trying to parent, build, or survive. It shows that all of the words he advertises the game as about are hollow in the end.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-05-13 06:34:15)

Blue tinker · 2020-05-13 07:20:19

Jason's job isn't to get rid of bobo but to give us some ways to make him not a problem.

This is a multiplayer game - some players will always grief, and banning them would not be good in this case as the bobo group uses mechanics already existing in the game. Raids happened in the past and people used property fences to protect themselves, why not try now (come to think of it I haven't yet. Might be worth a try).

I understand that permabanning should be a possibility for the game dev but for now we haven't tried to stop griefers. The towns I saw getting griefed were just regular towns without any security system whatsoever. Let's keep permabanning an unfortunate eventuality.

Also, I don't really like the posse system too as it is unintuitive. But I can tolerate it.

testo · 2020-05-13 08:24:59

Nah Bobo is ok, kid is only using whatever tools he has to have his fun. Obviously he doesn´t give a crap about "parenting and civilization building" and he gets off by knowing that he is "known". You can blame him all you want, but at the end of the day he is not responsible for terrible mechanics and poor desing: majority rule in a game with obvious comunication issues? Yeah np. Player skill cap because no combat mechanic but kill action based on followers? Yeah good idea. Bobo is just a blessing for Jason, brings free drama and spice to a game that otherwise doesn´t have the "struggle.

Crumpaloo · 2020-05-14 05:09:13

jasonrohrer wrote:

FYI, I'm not trying to "stop bobo"
But I am trying to give you, the players, a way to deal with him.... if you want to.

It should not be impossible for YOU to stop him.

It kinda was in the past. I don't think it is anymore.

This update has not changed much, i like that leaders have more validity since they have legitimate power now. But on the other side that power can be exploited and not everyone in the game knows how to combat that.

This is a good example of a oblivious majority being manipulated by the determined minority. Just like real politics i suppose...

P.S. That being said if your main principle is that the majority good will always triumph over the minority bad, how does one respond to a situation i just described above?

Last edited by Crumpaloo (2020-05-14 05:12:12)

Arcurus · 2020-05-14 12:14:57

Crumpaloo wrote:

This update has not changed much, i like that leaders have more validity since they have legitimate power now. But on the other side that power can be exploited and not everyone in the game knows how to combat that.
This is a good example of a oblivious majority being manipulated by the determined minority. Just like real politics i suppose...

P.S. That being said if your main principle is that the majority good will always triumph over the minority bad, how does one respond to a situation i just described above?

one question. if a leader happen to be bad and exiles and kills one by one, why so many of the exiled ones dont escape? If the leader exiles too much they should be able to overthrow the leader. So the question is, why in the current system the exiled ones dont escape normally? Is there is too less warning time to run away? Or is it too easy to form a posse to hunt them down? What is the reason?

I would suggest the following:
- if one is exiled he has 60 seconds before he can be attacked (the allies stop to count).
- at once one is exiled he cannot pick up stuff if he has more or equal close enemies then allies

this would stop an exiled one at once from messing up with tools and stuff, but would give him the opportunity to explain himself / search far allies or leave.
the only thing he can do then is animal griefing, but then after 60 seconds he can be hunted down....

Blue tinker · 2020-05-14 16:52:11

Arcurus wrote:

I would suggest the following:
- if one is exiled he has 60 seconds before he can be attacked (the allies stop to count).
- at once one is exiled he cannot pick up stuff if he has more or equal close enemies then allies
this would stop an exiled one at once from messing up with tools and stuff, but would give him the opportunity to explain himself / search far allies or leave.
the only thing he can do then is animal griefing, but then after 60 seconds he can be hunted down....

The ban on holding items sounds really rough. It makes one absolutely useless and unable to eat because of that one leader guy. Hey, the exiled person may not even be near, the leader may simply say 'I exile xyz' while they are out of town and in town a person is gonna die because they can't pick up food. New players wouldn't know what is going on and seeking allies while you're on a countdown to death (depends how many pips you have left) wouldn't be an easy task.

Also what if someone raids your town? If they manage to target you first, the suggsted 60 sec timer would make you unable to protect yourself from them for a minute. And when they manage to kill most of your family, they could exile you and make you even more harmless as you couldn't pick up items and your allies would be dead b then.

I don't want to sound rough or anything, I appreciate suggestions that would improve existing mechanics (as some of them need to be changed, in my opinion) but the suggestion above would result in griefs even more severe.

A better way would be to make the exiled person unable to mount a horse or use a car/plane. It would block the griefer from escaping.

Crumpaloo · 2020-05-14 17:35:26

Arcurus wrote:

Crumpaloo wrote:

This update has not changed much, i like that leaders have more validity since they have legitimate power now. But on the other side that power can be exploited and not everyone in the game knows how to combat that.
This is a good example of a oblivious majority being manipulated by the determined minority. Just like real politics i suppose...

P.S. That being said if your main principle is that the majority good will always triumph over the minority bad, how does one respond to a situation i just described above?
one question. if a leader happen to be bad and exiles and kills one by one, why so many of the exiled ones dont escape? If the leader exiles too much they should be able to overthrow the leader. So the question is, why in the current system the exiled ones dont escape normally? Is there is too less warning time to run away? Or is it too easy to form a posse to hunt them down? What is the reason?
I would suggest the following:
- if one is exiled he has 60 seconds before he can be attacked (the allies stop to count).
- at once one is exiled he cannot pick up stuff if he has more or equal close enemies then allies
this would stop an exiled one at once from messing up with tools and stuff, but would give him the opportunity to explain himself / search far allies or leave.
the only thing he can do then is animal griefing, but then after 60 seconds he can be hunted down....

Well i mean Bobo literally the other day built a wall around Lord town and killed like 20 people inside, id imagine those people were trying to escape too...

Abrar · 2020-05-14 17:41:33

Crumpaloo wrote:

Arcurus wrote:
Crumpaloo wrote:

This update has not changed much, i like that leaders have more validity since they have legitimate power now. But on the other side that power can be exploited and not everyone in the game knows how to combat that.
This is a good example of a oblivious majority being manipulated by the determined minority. Just like real politics i suppose...

P.S. That being said if your main principle is that the majority good will always triumph over the minority bad, how does one respond to a situation i just described above?
one question. if a leader happen to be bad and exiles and kills one by one, why so many of the exiled ones dont escape? If the leader exiles too much they should be able to overthrow the leader. So the question is, why in the current system the exiled ones dont escape normally? Is there is too less warning time to run away? Or is it too easy to form a posse to hunt them down? What is the reason?
I would suggest the following:
- if one is exiled he has 60 seconds before he can be attacked (the allies stop to count).
- at once one is exiled he cannot pick up stuff if he has more or equal close enemies then allies
this would stop an exiled one at once from messing up with tools and stuff, but would give him the opportunity to explain himself / search far allies or leave.
the only thing he can do then is animal griefing, but then after 60 seconds he can be hunted down....
Well i mean Bobo and I literally the other day built a wall around Lord town and killed like 20 people inside, id imagine those people were trying to escape too...

Edit- There was a typo in your reply

Last edited by Abrar (2020-05-14 17:43:49)

Crumpaloo · 2020-05-14 17:48:18

Abrar wrote:

Crumpaloo wrote:
Arcurus wrote:
one question. if a leader happen to be bad and exiles and kills one by one, why so many of the exiled ones dont escape? If the leader exiles too much they should be able to overthrow the leader. So the question is, why in the current system the exiled ones dont escape normally? Is there is too less warning time to run away? Or is it too easy to form a posse to hunt them down? What is the reason?
I would suggest the following:
- if one is exiled he has 60 seconds before he can be attacked (the allies stop to count).
- at once one is exiled he cannot pick up stuff if he has more or equal close enemies then allies
this would stop an exiled one at once from messing up with tools and stuff, but would give him the opportunity to explain himself / search far allies or leave.
the only thing he can do then is animal griefing, but then after 60 seconds he can be hunted down....
Well i mean Bobo and I literally the other day built a wall around Lord town and killed like 20 people inside, id imagine those people were trying to escape too...
Edit- There was a typo in your reply

Not really trying to draw my attention to myself because i dont care. Im more interested in the debate at hand, which is that for the past 2 months the only big updates we've ever gotten were more restrictions that dont work. If anyone knows that better it would be me or someone from Boboland Discord...

Last edited by Crumpaloo (2020-05-14 17:48:59)

Arcurus · 2020-05-14 18:33:45

Crumpaloo wrote:

Abrar wrote:
...
Well i mean Bobo and I literally the other day built a wall around Lord town and killed like 20 people inside, id imagine those people were trying to escape too...
Not really trying to draw my attention to myself because i dont care. Im more interested in the debate at hand, which is that for the past 2 months the only big updates we've ever gotten were more restrictions that dont work. If anyone knows that better it would be me or someone from Boboland Discord...

lol yea a wall... at least he is creative...

currently im also more in favor off a fall back to single combat with improvements like some kind of hitpoints and better / automatic instinct escape from "angry" people with weapons as outlined here.

but in case this wont happen i try to improve the current system...

Blue tinker wrote:

The ban on holding items sounds really rough. It makes one absolutely useless and unable to eat because of that one leader guy. Hey, the exiled person may not even be near, the leader may simply say 'I exile xyz' while they are out of town and in town a person is gonna die because they can't pick up food. New players wouldn't know what is going on and seeking allies while you're on a countdown to death (depends how many pips you have left) wouldn't be an easy task.
Also what if someone raids your town? If they manage to target you first, the suggsted 60 sec timer would make you unable to protect yourself from them for a minute. And when they manage to kill most of your family, they could exile you and make you even more harmless as you couldn't pick up items and your allies would be dead b then.

I don't want to sound rough or anything, I appreciate suggestions that would improve existing mechanics (as some of them need to be changed, in my opinion) but the suggestion above would result in griefs even more severe.
A better way would be to make the exiled person unable to mount a horse or use a car/plane. It would block the griefer from escaping.

I appreciate your feedback!

yea of course the range "enemies" hinder you to pick up stuff and which items you are not allowed to pick up could be balanced...

Still others should be able to give you stuff... this could also be the first step towards a better trade system, since currently its so easy to just steal thinks.

like if both ave baskets in their hand and click on each other they exchange it.

The current alternative is you are exiled then killed... at least then you would have 60 seconds to find allies or run away.

To outside attackers, if your group is bigger or equal it wont affect you. they are by default considered as not allies and wont be able to pick up stuff if in a minority. The range for the ally / stranger count could be very near, like 5 to 10 tiles.

Last edited by Arcurus (2020-05-14 21:05:57)

Cantface · 2020-05-14 21:43:21

jasonrohrer wrote:

FYI, I'm not trying to "stop bobo"
But I am trying to give you, the players, a way to deal with him.... if you want to.

It should not be impossible for YOU to stop him.

It kinda was in the past. I don't think it is anymore.

Oh okay, well you're definitely having fun trying to balance things 'against' him and failing miserably. Lots of posts about genocide nowadays back in the old system you actually had a better chance to protect yourself even if you failed you'd be better prepared the next time and if you don't see that you're dense.

It is almost impossible with the system as it is now. What are you on about? Are you having a giraffe? Pull the other one.

Glassius · 2020-05-15 16:35:38

Whenever I see such updates with background mechanics I am happy I've stopped playing. Why would I learn a broken mechanism which will be altered in few weeks? Why Jason is implementing coding magic only for veterans, especially griefers? Nowadays vanilla players are unable to defend. It's a recrration of no gun zone in US schools. Great idea

Unless a psycho appears. I've enjoyed leason from Bobo
https://youtu.be/tksmE9HLfrU

Last edited by Glassius (2020-05-15 16:36:07)

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