Teach new players

ahead · 2020-05-21 10:35:58

I've seen griefers get away with a lot, hell, i've gotten away with a lot, walking out with only one or sometimes zero curses.
Players are not informed of actions that they are able to perform, curses are a complete joke, not because they are bad, but because nobody uses them.

This is not about telling jason to do something, as much is it to tell you to teach the few remaining new players to use the damn curses, and to download a zoom mod before their next time playing this game.
Jason has made it clear that he will not be including any sort of zoom in/out feature into the vanilla client, tell new people to download hetuw or +, tell them about curses, tell them about yum, hell making a sign that says "PLEASE YUM" works well, because a new player will more likely ask "What's yum?"

I've seen people teach them how to perform jobs, but why not the basic mechanics that aren't in the of the game.
When they really should.

That's all.

Crumpaloo · 2020-05-21 11:01:38

There already exist plenty of ways to destroy a village that dont involve getting cursed. All that would do is encourage mass cursing because "oh well that guy cursed so i thought he was bad"

Then next thing you know that guy who got mass cursed is getting a refund courtesy of Jasons "world-class game design"

schmloo · 2020-05-21 12:14:33

Yes. There’s blaming failure on questionable mechanics like race restrictions, homeland, and smacking an engine in a box, but I fully agree that there’s also a huge responsibility for people to actually consider the nature of the game, in that teaching is and always has been a HUGE factor. The attitude that “someone else will do it”, which most of the playerbase seems to have now, is not good to have, because nothing gets done, or a couple of people end up doing all of the work. Newer players want to do things and help (in most cases).

Oh and just to clarify, griefing is the complete other side of that coin, because it disables new players from learning and even pushes them away from the game. There’s a few reasons why the player count has dropped, and I reckon that’s a pretty significant one.

Last edited by schmloo (2020-05-21 12:16:23)

Crumpaloo · 2020-05-21 12:49:00

schmloo wrote:

Yes. There’s blaming failure on questionable mechanics like race restrictions, homeland, and smacking an engine in a box, but I fully agree that there’s also a huge responsibility for people to actually consider the nature of the game, in that teaching is and always has been a HUGE factor. The attitude that “someone else will do it”, which most of the playerbase seems to have now, is not good to have, because nothing gets done, or a couple of people end up doing all of the work. Newer players want to do things and help (in most cases).
Oh and just to clarify, griefing is the complete other side of that coin, because it disables new players from learning and even pushes them away from the game. There’s a few reasons why the player count has dropped, and I reckon that’s a pretty significant one.

Jason cant stop griefing, not because he hasn't tried, he has, its just that after 13 or so failed attempts hes given up. He would make changes directly citing specific Bobo Bill's videos as a framework for his next update. Even making remakes like "Stick that in your pipe and smoke it Bobo" and "Bobo, you know where you can put your bow and arrow" and yet here is Bobo still, still killing, still griefing. More then ever infact, he killed 50+ players in a single day a couple days ago. Thats more then pre-genetic fitness leadership update.

DestinyCall · 2020-05-21 14:12:46

I don't think Jason has given up on stopping griefing. The real problem is that he doesn't want to stop griefing and never has. He considers griefing an important part of the game because it adds variety and interest to our boring lives. Look at some of the things Jason has intentionally added to the game - pitbulls, war swords, one-click engine scrap box, bear caves, etc. And those are just the things he has left in. I'm not even counting the stuff that he eventually removed or the stuff like property fences and door locks that maybe could be used for other things, but are used predominantly by griefers for griefing.

Why can you carry piglets in a backpack? Why does the domestic boar hunt down and kill people? What purpose does this serve except for causing grief to other people and killing the ignorant?

Jason likes that we can't trust other people and we can be betrayed by the strangers we call "family". I don't think Jason wants to "fix" that particular problem, because he considers it a core part of the OHOL experience. OHOL is basically just a social experiment pretending to be a cooperative survival game. What is the meaning of "family"? How can you trust a perfect stranger to care about you when you have known them for less than an hour? How do you build a successful village when all your hard work could be destroyed by one of your own children? Such excitement, such tragedy, such feels!

Jason does not want to solve this problem for us. He wants US to stop griefing using the tools he gives us. And he wants that experience to create cool stories and memorable lives and funny videos that get posted on YouTube or Twitch and bring more players to check out this neat game about cooperation and overcoming adversity. He keeps adding new mechanics to combat griefing within the game (and new ways to grief), because he is hoping to find the perfect balance between frustration and success that he calls "fun".

Unfortunately for Jason, trying to channel real griefing into a viable source of conflict within a game is very dangerous design territory. The STORIES about griefing might be interesting to read, but the actual player experience as the victim of griefing is really not enjoyable at all. Being griefed feels horrible and wrong. Not just morally wrong ... badly-designed game wrong. It feels like a mistake that needs to be fixed, but it isn't being fixed because the developer supports it.

The griefing problem that faces OHOL is not unique. It is present to one degree or another in EVERY multiplayer game. It is handled in various ways to allow the player base to enjoy the game and have fun without letting bad elements intentionally ruin the experience for other people. This isn't always easy, especially in a game like OHOL that allows players a wide degree of personal freedom. And I think it is inevitable that some griefing will occur in any multiplayer setting, because some people will always find it more entertaining to play against the game instead of with it. If the goal is to build the tallest tower with a group of strangers, there's always going to be somebody who thinks it would be more fun to see the tower fall. Most games deal with griefers by defining basic rules of conduct and identifying (and removing) the individual players who are unable or unwilling to follow those rules, so the rest of the players can enjoy the game without being harassed. But Jason doesn't want to get rid of those people. He wants to make them part of his game - the main threat. See how tall you can get that tower before your own team-mates betray you! But playing a game of sabotage and betrayal isn't that enjoyable for the players who just want to build a beautiful tower with their new friends.

TLDR - OHOL has a split personality at its core - it wants to be about cooperation and civilization building with the majority of players working toward a common goal, but it also wants to be about the worst aspects of human nature leading to the total destruction of society and progress. Jason isn't going to properly "fix" the griefing problem, because he is still trying to use it to make the game into an interesting social experiment.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2020-05-22 14:00:14)

schmloo · 2020-05-21 14:17:54

Crumpaloo wrote:

Jason cant stop griefing, not because he hasn't tried, he has, its just that after 13 or so failed attempts hes given up. He would make changes directly citing specific Bobo Bill's videos as a framework for his next update. Even making remakes like "Stick that in your pipe and smoke it Bobo" and "Bobo, you know where you can put your bow and arrow" and yet here is Bobo still, still killing, still griefing. More then ever infact, he killed 50+ players in a single day a couple days ago. Thats more then pre-genetic fitness leadership update.

If it wasn’t Bobo and the group that does a lot of the work for him, it could be literally anyone else. We had that kind of kill count with swords, and thankfully they were nerfed into the ground. There’s definitely a line as to what can be done, since overall it’s left down to people to not be shits. Griefing is going to exist, it’s just a matter of a) encouraging people directly not to follow this weird behaviour and b) Giving people countering it the upper hand with as few exploitable features as possible. Scrappable engine doesn’t do this and completely enables it, posse can potentially do it depending on what past changes to it you consider, but can be used with greater effect on the other side, and curses currently punish everyone equally, if not more swayed towards groups cursing out good players, and are dished out quite liberally. A way to mark players as good just like curses might be a good idea, but then I suppose it could also be used against actual good players by groups.

Since b) can’t really be solved by anyone other than Jason, maybe more emphasis on a) would be a better course of action for the community, rather than constantly asking for a better system to replace the previous one. As long as people are motivated and have a passion for standing up against griefers, they probably would.

Last edited by schmloo (2020-05-21 14:22:09)

testo · 2020-05-21 18:07:12

He said it himself, he doesn´t want to stop griefing. He wants the degree of freedom of harming others at your own will. Why do you think piglets, bears and pitbulls are in the game?

The game feeds on the drama inducing nature of the interaction: I build a fence next to the farm because I want to store something for myself, someone else comes and destroys it, calls me a griefer and a hoarder. Starts chasing me all around the map, I just want to hunt rabbits and use them as I want, he claims the rabbits are for everyone to use. Whos the griefer?

Spoonwood · 2020-05-21 18:33:05

testo wrote:

The game feeds on the drama inducing nature of the interaction: I build a fence next to the farm because I want to store something for myself, someone else comes and destroys it, calls me a griefer and a hoarder.

That drama often just makes things annoying. Annoyance isn't interest, since annoyance is negative dissociation. Interest is positive association. A sense of danger can have positive association, but someone annoying or harassing you isn't interesting. The sense of danger makes the deadly domestic boar a bit more difficult (it's more dangerous to tame to a pig than other animals), but leaves bears and mean pit bulls otherwide because in the vast majority they happen due to players bad intentions trying to annoy or harass others.

tocal · 2020-05-21 18:44:26

Spoonwood wrote:

testo wrote:
The game feeds on the drama inducing nature of the interaction: I build a fence next to the farm because I want to store something for myself, someone else comes and destroys it, calls me a griefer and a hoarder.
That drama often just makes things annoying. Annoyance isn't interest, since annoyance is negative dissociation. Interest is positive association. A sense of danger can have positive association, but someone annoying or harassing you isn't interesting. The sense of danger makes the deadly domestic boar a bit more difficult (it's more dangerous to tame to a pig than other animals), but leaves bears and mean pit bulls otherwide because in the vast majority they happen due to players bad intentions trying to annoy or harass others.

All stories have conflict or there's no point in telling them. The problem with this game is that many of the conflicts are artificial and natural conflicts aren't allowed to emerge due to the game drifting from realistic motivations.

The forced, unintuitive conflicts that people are now facing: someone smashed all our tech because there is a box that allows people to hit stuff with a hammer and not break it into parts, but literally shred it into the base metal; There's a killer in our town but they are invincible because the game mechanics are unintuitive and not documented; someone locked the gate and I'm going to starve to death rather than disrespect their personal property; the town ran out of water because somehow water isn't a renewable resource.

Spoonwood · 2020-05-21 18:52:07

tocal wrote:

All stories have conflict or there's no point in telling them.

No, there exist plenty of stories where fighting, battle, or war isn't present that interest people. The development of people is interesting, and often enough doesn't involve conflict, or at least not substantial amounts of it.

tocal · 2020-05-21 18:59:20

Literally every story worth telling has conflict. Maybe the conflict was with RNG, a foul disposition or terrible weather, but that conflict is there if there is a story that has been told.

The primary conflicts in OHOL should be being lost in wilderness, exposure, hunger, resource scarcity, interpersonal conflict, not understanding the world, not being able to provide for your family, collapse of civilization, dying before finishing your projects.

If the game didn't have these aspects, it would be block building. Not a game, but rather a simulator.

Spoonwood · 2020-05-21 19:13:34

tocal wrote:

If the game didn't have these aspects, it would be block building. Not a game, but rather a simulator.

No, it would still be a game.

schmloo · 2020-05-22 12:21:23

testo wrote:

I just want to hunt rabbits and use them as I want, he claims the rabbits are for everyone to use. Whos the griefer?

Neither, because you’ve both misinterpreted the meaning of the word. Both of you have good intentions but have different opinions on how to help the town, and disagree with each others’ methods. Mr. kill-all-the-sheep, knock-down-the-forge or smack-the-engine doesn’t care about helping the town though, they just do it to cause grief onto others, or because they find it funny despite how it makes others feel. It’s draining picking up after them all of the time, not fun. I’d ask why would anyone keep picking up after other people’s bad behaviour, but that sways off into the topic of questioning your own existence in-game, and that seems like a bit of a depressing topic. What is life? Why are our arms sticks? Are ohol characters actually just property fence twigs with a bit of meat? Questions best left unanswered.

Also I’m pretty sure fence gates don’t decay now and are always passed down, or at least it seems that way, since I’ve always seen a useless one or two dotted around a village. Not quite sure how that works now. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I personally would avoid using them besides for their forced usage for wells, in all honesty.

testo · 2020-05-22 18:53:57

schmloo wrote:

testo wrote:
I just want to hunt rabbits and use them as I want, he claims the rabbits are for everyone to use. Whos the griefer?
Neither, because you’ve both misinterpreted the meaning of the word. Both of you have good intentions but have different opinions on how to help the town, and disagree with each others’ methods. Mr. kill-all-the-sheep, knock-down-the-forge or smack-the-engine doesn’t care about helping the town though, they just do it to cause grief onto others, or because they find it funny despite how it makes others feel. It’s draining picking up after them all of the time, not fun. I’d ask why would anyone keep picking up after other people’s bad behaviour, but that sways off into the topic of questioning your own existence in-game, and that seems like a bit of a depressing topic. What is life? Why are our arms sticks? Are ohol characters actually just property fence twigs with a bit of meat? Questions best left unanswered.
Also I’m pretty sure fence gates don’t decay now and are always passed down, or at least it seems that way, since I’ve always seen a useless one or two dotted around a village. Not quite sure how that works now. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I personally would avoid using them besides for their forced usage for wells, in all honesty.

If I build a road and another player doesn´t like so he destroys everything I´ve worked on by calling an apocalipse...

Am I a griefer for making a road that some other person just happened to dislike or is he a griefer for destroying what I worked on? Does the other person care at all to help me or himself if he calls an apoc?

schmloo · 2020-05-22 19:17:31

testo wrote:

If I build a road and another player doesn´t like so he destroys everything I´ve worked on by calling an apocalipse...
Am I a griefer for making a road that some other person just happened to dislike or is he a griefer for destroying what I worked on? Does the other person care at all to help me or himself if he calls an apoc?

Neither one is, both had a disagreement on whether connecting two or more unprotected towns with waystones and roads on a server in a game where griefing is a pretty common thing was a good idea. Did these people ask you nicely to stop spamming roads around their town? Did you ignore them and do it anyway despite this?

That person I suppose should also learn to build decent looking towns before spamming them about 200 metres from the other person’s though.

Last edited by schmloo (2020-05-22 19:20:01)

testo · 2020-05-22 21:01:17

schmloo wrote:

testo wrote:
If I build a road and another player doesn´t like so he destroys everything I´ve worked on by calling an apocalipse...
Am I a griefer for making a road that some other person just happened to dislike or is he a griefer for destroying what I worked on? Does the other person care at all to help me or himself if he calls an apoc?
Neither one is, both had a disagreement on whether connecting two or more unprotected towns with waystones and roads on a server in a game where griefing is a pretty common thing was a good idea. Did these people ask you nicely to stop spamming roads around their town? Did you ignore them and do it anyway despite this?
That person I suppose should also learn to build decent looking towns before spamming them about 200 metres from the other person’s though.

Not at all, they left me very unplesant anonymous messages and it was even to me to contact them. Are you telling me that you will stop making roads everytime I ask you to? Are you telling me you are entitled enough to give yourself the right to decide what a decent looking town is? That is amazing.

testo · 2020-05-22 21:03:55

And for the record, I didn´t have a disagreement with anyone. For that someone would have had to reach to me to begin with. All I got were anonymous aggresive messages. When I contacted you all I got from you was -we don´t like you to build roads-. That alone is pretty entitled tbh.

schmloo · 2020-05-22 21:16:31

And I’m supposed to contact you... how? Considering I didn’t even know who you were on discord or otherwise? There were a mix of polite and impolite messages. The impolite ones started coming out when you didn’t even acknowledge them and carried on sticking waystones all around our town for every new person on the server to see. The (in my opinion) bad looking towns weren’t the big problem. It was broadcasting our town’s location.

Oh, and for the record telling me I shouldn’t be pissed off about you sticking your town 200ish metres away, considering oil and other raw resources, is definitely some kind of entitlement.

Last edited by schmloo (2020-05-22 21:18:03)

schmloo · 2020-05-22 22:25:48

Oh and iirc you did curse my friend and straight up block them from being able to even play in our town, since they were sent to donkeytown instead.

testo · 2020-05-23 08:55:02

Well I contacted you somehow no? And for the one hundredth time I never, ever put a waystone other than my own place. And I did not put a town closer than 1000k to anyone. I didn´t broadcast shit, I didn´t curse anyone to my recall and if I did was because the same obnoxious person kept joinning without saying a word more than 5 times straight. But you all just insist on putting your hands on your ears like 5 year olds screaming "waystone", "waystone" while the person in front of you is telling you that he did not put a waystone. It would be hard for you to talk to me if i kept telling you that you stole my car.

Í have a policy in low pop of being as polite as possible and caring any baby i can as long as I am close to my place even if theres risk of a griefer. I don´t care, I recieved many new players there. Your people is just a lot of dirtbags full of shit and the reason this community is toxic.

JonySky · 2020-05-23 10:24:15

This is the experience of a new player:

wow, I have seen the trailer for this game and you can create robots, cars and laser guns! (enthusiasm)

game one: starve to death
second game: your mother abandons you in the middle of nowhere
Game Three: Someone is trying to teach you, but he is from a different race and you don't understand him
Game Four: Curse You For Growing More Berries
Game Five: The water runs out in your city and everyone commits suicide
Game Six: Your lineage has been wiped out by an update
Seventh game: BOBO devastates your family, and you can't do anything
Game 8: check the really ohol cars
Game 9: you check that neither robots nor laser pistols exist
game ten: you see that in the game everything revolves around food and not starving
eleventh game: you check that the game is boring

Why worry about teaching a new player, if this player will disappear in a matter of days?

Last edited by JonySky (2020-05-23 10:26:21)

Crumpaloo · 2020-05-23 10:45:38

JonySky wrote:

This is the experience of a new player:
wow, I have seen the trailer for this game and you can create robots, cars and laser guns! (enthusiasm)
game one: starve to death
second game: your mother abandons you in the middle of nowhere
Game Three: Someone is trying to teach you, but he is from a different race and you don't understand him
Game Four: Curse You For Growing More Berries
Game Five: The water runs out in your city and everyone commits suicide
Game Six: Your lineage has been wiped out by an update
Seventh game: BOBO devastates your family, and you can't do anything
Game 8: check the really ohol cars
Game 9: you check that neither robots nor laser pistols exist
game ten: you see that in the game everything revolves around food and not starving
eleventh game: you check that the game is boring
Why worry about teaching a new player, if this player will disappear in a matter of days?

Player retention relies solely on the players themselves, they decide whether or not they wanna stick it out in the end, and no amount of hand-holding or bartering is gonna change that.

schmloo · 2020-05-23 11:50:20

testo wrote:

...

Yep, apparently I’m the toxic one here. I insist that something didn’t happen when it did, force the other person to accept that my point of view is the only correct one, and cling on to something that happened what, a few months back? I think this is over. If I see your name on low pop, I’ll just restart my town on another server, even though I shouldn’t have to, because you will stick roads and waystones around it. Least you could have done was ask first. Goodbye.

testo · 2020-05-23 14:11:09

schmloo wrote:

testo wrote:
...
Yep, apparently I’m the toxic one here. I insist that something didn’t happen when it did, force the other person to accept that my point of view is the only correct one, and cling on to something that happened what, a few months back? I think this is over. If I see your name on low pop, I’ll just restart my town on another server, even though I shouldn’t have to, because you will stick roads and waystones around it. Least you could have done was ask first. Goodbye.

Always the same song with you, you still force yourself to say that I put some waystones when I didn´t. You can´t even get out of your bubble of using the same argument over and over because somehow your castle of invunerability goes down. I DIDNT PUT WAYSTONES. Can I say it louder? maybe if you learn to read?

Show me one proof, one screenshot, one server log anything showing me putting waystones to your place (hint for 200 times: I did not put waystones). Most likely you don´t even know where my place was anyways.

You are toxic when you gang on people with your friends.
You are toxic when you leave anonymous messages like "Dont build stupid roads everywhere"
You are toxic when you accuse someone of doing something without even asking if that person did it or not.
You are toxic when take mob approach of believing a server is practically yours so nobody can make a place that doesn´t fit your beauty standards.
Playing as a mob and forcing other players out not toxic enough?
Not receiving other players just because you like to hoard the whole server for you and your friends not toxic enough?
Talking shit of other players on discord (im not talking about you btw) and never giving face up for no reason not toxic enough?
Sending your friends to argue about everything like a coward and playng the victim role when called out not toxic enough?

I can agree im not really friendly when I say all this. But I always go face up and I don´t mob on people. Have you seen anyone else trying to defend me?

schmloo · 2020-05-23 14:34:13

testo wrote:

...
Sending your friends to argue about everything like a coward and playng the victim role when called out not toxic enough?
...

Who’s arguing for me? Was this not just between me and you just now...? I feel like there’s a lot of anger coming from you right now, so I am going to head on out.

.-. _
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/ __)-' )
\ `(.-')
> ._>-'
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peace

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2020-05-21 10:35:58

Teach new players

#2 2020-05-21 11:01:38

Re: Teach new players

#3 2020-05-21 12:14:33

Re: Teach new players

#4 2020-05-21 12:49:00

Re: Teach new players

#5 2020-05-21 14:12:46

Re: Teach new players

#6 2020-05-21 14:17:54

Re: Teach new players

#7 2020-05-21 18:07:12

Re: Teach new players

#8 2020-05-21 18:33:05

Re: Teach new players

#9 2020-05-21 18:44:26

Re: Teach new players

#10 2020-05-21 18:52:07

Re: Teach new players

#11 2020-05-21 18:59:20

Re: Teach new players

#12 2020-05-21 19:13:34

Re: Teach new players

#13 2020-05-22 12:21:23

Re: Teach new players

#14 2020-05-22 18:53:57

Re: Teach new players

#15 2020-05-22 19:17:31

Re: Teach new players

#16 2020-05-22 21:01:17

Re: Teach new players

#17 2020-05-22 21:03:55

Re: Teach new players

#18 2020-05-22 21:16:31

Re: Teach new players

#19 2020-05-22 22:25:48

Re: Teach new players

#20 2020-05-23 08:55:02

Re: Teach new players

#21 2020-05-23 10:24:15

Re: Teach new players

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Re: Teach new players

#23 2020-05-23 11:50:20

Re: Teach new players

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Re: Teach new players

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