Could war ever be enjoyable gameplay

WoodSpoon · 2020-06-11 11:07:58

I get why it's hated but honestly I enjoyed the battles that happened in the Rift era. There was actually relatively organised military units and motivation for war. Back when other families weren't so friendly, Winning wars lead to unity longer term. But their was also motivation for defending, You wanted your family/town to endure. It was tense defending when enemy groups came to siege your city.

Though it would've been cooler to have alliances and trading as an option as well. Imagine a powerful city subugating smaller villages, Taxing them in exchange for safety. But honestly I kind of enjoyed when griefers used to manipulate towns into going to war. Collapsing due to a war is more realistic then "Ahahaha I lured 8 bears and dirtied pads!"

Twisted · 2020-06-11 11:26:57

The problem with war is that there's only a small amount of families living at any given time. When you attack another town there will be casualties, probably on both sides. Some of the defenders will respawn in the attacker's town, some of the attackers will respawn in the defender's town. By the time you're old enough to attack, your grandmother/mother/uncle might have already respawned in the town you're attacking. It's just a mess and in the end literally no one benefits from any raids or attacks.

For this to change the game would need a lot more players (probably 500+ concurrent minimum) and there would have to be some way to ensure the town you're attacking won't have any of your family members. Something like pairing up two nearby families and making it so any given player can only spawn in one of them.

Also there was no organised military and motivation for war during the Rift, there were no wars, it was just a bunch of griefers attacking other towns since they were uncurseable by other families.

Arcurus · 2020-06-11 11:42:39

currently the game is not designed for war.

If you want war the following needs changes:
- curses needs to be limited to own family
- incarnation must be changed, that you incarnate much less likely in a family where you killed one
- incarnation / helping the same family must be easier, maybe cancle the linage ban if you died a natural death and encourage incarnation in same family?
- there is no benefit for war, switching back iron and making it rare could help to compete for iron
- the combat system needs changes, at least allowing to fight back against any attacker, even better some hitpoints....
- the races are currently too depended since biome restrictions
- there are not that many players, so nps or lot more players would be needed to fight against\

honestly i dont think that much of above will be implemented, so if you want war, i guess better start your own server...

Last edited by Arcurus (2020-06-11 11:44:50)

WoodSpoon · 2020-06-11 12:17:35

Maybe a system where you are tied to one family. If you don't like it then you have motivation to improve it, If you grief then being cursed would get you exiled.

Maybe turn down the amount of lives to balance the fact you reincarnate in the same family. Death of the family could lead to an Eve spawning and everyone else being assigned to that bloodline.

So you have an incentive to help out because dying means you have to start from scratch. Though Eve bloodlines could align with towns for a helping hand.

If you get bored with one town, Maybe build colonies or conquer somebody else.

Last edited by WoodSpoon (2020-06-11 12:21:38)

Spoonwood · 2020-06-11 14:26:27

I don't see how war coheres with anything about parenting or civilization building. It doesn't fit with how the game is advertised.

Arcurus · 2020-06-11 15:13:23

Spoonwood wrote:

I don't see how war coheres with anything about parenting or civilization building. It doesn't fit with how the game is advertised.

yea it seems that Spoon Wood is really different from Wood Spoon...

Last edited by Arcurus (2020-06-11 15:14:22)

DestinyCall · 2020-06-11 15:37:35

Arcurus wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
I don't see how war coheres with anything about parenting or civilization building. It doesn't fit with how the game is advertised.
yea it seems that Spoon Wood is really different from Wood Spoon...

Let us hope that we never encounter Doownoops.

Gogo · 2020-06-11 20:27:36

During wars males were dying and females were kept, I suggest the same for game, since we need all races. Kill all males from another family and their females will switch family name to yours. It will give you bonus to gene score (for all who joined a posse).

WoodSpoon · 2020-06-12 02:48:15

Gogo wrote:

During wars males were dying and females were kept, I suggest the same for game, since we need all races. Kill all males from another family and their females will switch family name to yours. It will give you bonus to gene score (for all who joined a posse).

I like that actually, It gives males an actual role as well. I like the idea of conquest to include other races into your family, Even if it has kinda rapey implications lol.

WoodSpoon · 2020-06-12 06:23:25

Spoonwood wrote:

I don't see how war coheres with anything about parenting or civilization building. It doesn't fit with how the game is advertised.

War and politics is a major part of civilization. Infact both are already implemented, We have ways to declare war/peace and hierarchy system.

Eat wood spoon

pein · 2020-06-12 06:43:25

my idea was to separate people weekly basis, you wouldn't be tied to one family but one side with more families

this would give more variety and more loyalty, if you hurt others it won't affect you if you help your team it helps you

we don't have enough players to make too many, would work best with like 4 teams of 4 fams, but we should be happy with 2 teams of 3 fams, that's already like 8x6 and new eves would be a problem
with the whites being useless they could be the least favoured, only active when others go well and the server pop is higher than 50
or drop races

the other problem I see is distance and organization
its not a war when you just ambush others, in the rift we had towns, they didn't let me in my own city
then the raiders were better equipped than others and had no reason to kill a male
also, they were annoying you constantly for a half-hour while you tried to feed others and live in peace

we would need some limitations on the fights
let's say you build a fort, that fort can be challenged and a timer starts, this has to be done physically, 10 min later a fight starts inside it, all defenders and attackers get there automatically, who are at least 11 years old (1 min old at the moment of the challenge)
this would solve the transport and organization

a fight should be semi-skill based like you could move your character, maybe even aim it or just based on the closest opponent
it could be short turn-based or semi turn-based/action like blood bowl

the shots would be random hit/miss/dodge slightly affected by gear. like you could have heavy hits melee/range or more hp or more dodge, reduce melee/ranged or better aim. these weapons and gear could only be used in fort fights and could even be consumed slowly.
it could be like 3 tiers and 3 values of decay
people who survive until the end it would keep the gear, the ones who get knocked out, would ot die but lose the gears

it could be other rewards like territory control based bonuses
the map should be also changed to have different resource centres and different industries with them

JonySky · 2020-06-12 07:19:16

WoodSpoon wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
I don't see how war coheres with anything about parenting or civilization building. It doesn't fit with how the game is advertised.
Infact both are already implemented, We have ways to declare war/peace and hierarchy system.

do you seriously think that the war is implemented in OHOL?
Do you really call the "hierarchies" a political system?

I think this community has played very few games

OHOL has no war because the first version of the war swords was a disaster in its implementation and the "solution" was (as usual in this game) totally inconsistent magic restrictions

anyway the current numbers of players and the pile of absurd restrictions that exist in OHOL does not allow to have wars

with the hierarchy system we have a similar situation ... it doesn't do much good

Last edited by JonySky (2020-06-12 07:24:35)

WoodSpoon · 2020-06-12 07:31:30

JonySky wrote:

WoodSpoon wrote:
Spoonwood wrote:
I don't see how war coheres with anything about parenting or civilization building. It doesn't fit with how the game is advertised.
Infact both are already implemented, We have ways to declare war/peace and hierarchy system.
do you seriously think that the war is implemented in OHOL?
Do you really call the "hierarchies" a political system?
I think this community has played very few games
OHOL has no war because the first version of the war swords was a disaster in its implementation and the "solution" was (as usual in this game) totally inconsistent magic restrictions
anyway the current numbers of players and the pile of absurd restrictions that exist in OHOL does not allow to have wars
with the hierarchy system we have a similar situation ... it doesn't do much good

It's in the game, Ease up

JonySky · 2020-06-12 07:34:36

pein wrote:

a fight should be semi-skill based like you could move your character, maybe even aim it or just based on the closest opponent
it could be short turn-based or semi turn-based/action like blood bowl

Jason's response when I proposed this idea

jasonrohrer wrote:

Yeah, let's copy the combat mechanics of HoMM, which is a single player, turn-based game. Let's make that work in a multiplayer, realtime game. Let's stop time every time combat occurs...?
A LV 11 GRIEFER APPEARS
Even the best-sounding ideas don't often work in practice, once implemented inside a persistent multiplayer game....

idea discarded by Jason

JonySky · 2020-06-12 07:38:25

WoodSpoon wrote:

JonySky wrote:
WoodSpoon wrote:
Infact both are already implemented, We have ways to declare war/peace and hierarchy system.
do you seriously think that the war is implemented in OHOL?
Do you really call the "hierarchies" a political system?
I think this community has played very few games
OHOL has no war because the first version of the war swords was a disaster in its implementation and the "solution" was (as usual in this game) totally inconsistent magic restrictions
anyway the current numbers of players and the pile of absurd restrictions that exist in OHOL does not allow to have wars
with the hierarchy system we have a similar situation ... it doesn't do much good

It's in the game, Ease up

I don't like to see a game with as much potential as OHOL wasted
only that ... sorry if it seemed offensive .. I do not express myself very well in English, it is not my language

Arcurus · 2020-06-12 08:25:14

JonySky wrote:

...
idea discarded by Jason

Using turn based combat in a real time massive online game doesnt sound like a "intuitive" solution...

I think the combat like it was before where you need to guess where the other is moving sounds quite good, what was the problem with that?

Additionally giving some more hitpoints could help to make the fight little bit more tactical.

fug · 2020-06-12 08:35:18

Arcurus wrote:

JonySky wrote:
...
idea discarded by Jason
Using turn based combat in a real time massive online game doesnt sound like a "intuitive" solution...
I think the combat like it was before where you need to guess where the other is moving sounds quite good, what was the problem with that?
Additionally giving some more hitpoints could help to make the fight little bit more tactical.

The problem was it was skilled based.

Idiots killed all the new players because they couldn't fight back

Good players killed the trolls because they were better

New players killed the good players because KILLING BAD.

The real problem with combat came from Jason added a broken ass sword which was completely unbalanced which lead to myself having to show him how disgustingly broken it was along with Wuat. Instead of coming to conclusion that a butter knife (after accidentally adding it twice having to fix it on vacation) is too broken for the game he came to the conclusion that combat was broken.

Thus we got the last dance update.

Arcurus · 2020-06-12 08:42:30

fug wrote:

The problem was it was skilled based.
Idiots killed all the new players because they couldn't fight back
Good players killed the trolls because they were better
New players killed the good players because KILLING BAD.

The real problem with combat came from Jason added a broken ass sword which was completely unbalanced which lead to myself having to show him how disgustingly broken it was along with Wuat. Instead of coming to conclusion that a butter knife (after accidentally adding it twice having to fix it on vacation) is too broken for the game he came to the conclusion that combat was broken.
Thus we got the last dance update.

skill based sounds great, not like a problem

for new players, some kind of instinct auto run away could help a lot if one is attacking them.... also more hitpoints would help to escape....

>New players killed the good players because KILLING BAD.

how could they kill them, if they dont know who to fight back?

What was the problem with the war sword? that it had no cool down?

UPDATE
Looked at the last dance update.

I think the problem is, that it removes all skill from the combat, instead of just leveling it out.

If one enters the range of the attacker the target it hit 100% no chance of escape....

I think it could work if the attacker would MISS the target if not in range and then have a short cooldown of 1 sec before he can attack again. Still bows seems to be overpowered this way, since they have lot more range....

Last edited by Arcurus (2020-06-12 09:05:21)

JonySky · 2020-06-12 09:08:10

if you want to implement a war you need a decent PVP system

It doesn't matter if you use a turn or skill system, but you cannot try to implement a war with the current mechanics and the PVP system that we currently have in OHOL

Also there is no reason to organize wars when the cities are copies of each other and they all have the same, there is no reason for wars ...

what's the use of a war? at OHOL ... it's no use

first we must create a solid reason to generate wars and then we can think of wars

in OHOL the reverse was implemented .... first the war and then the "reason" that is not even a reason (breed restrictions)

The sword of war was a poorly developed experiment that was "solved" (magically)

Last edited by JonySky (2020-06-12 09:09:40)

JonySky · 2020-06-12 09:27:29

Arcurus wrote:

JonySky wrote:
...
idea discarded by Jason
Using turn based combat in a real time massive online game doesnt sound like a "intuitive" solution...
.

The same as...:
the current pose system
the current system of breed restrictions
the current skill system
the genetic scoring system
the gang system

introducing turn-based combat is not the best solution, of course !, but it is better than the current system

fug · 2020-06-12 09:49:34

Arcurus wrote:

skill based sounds great, not like a problem
for new players, some kind of instinct auto run away could help a lot if one is attacking them.... also more hitpoints would help to escape....
>New players killed the good players because KILLING BAD.
how could they kill them, if they dont know who to fight back?
What was the problem with the war sword? that it had no cool down?
UPDATE
Looked at the last dance update.
I think the problem is, that it removes all skill from the combat, instead of just leveling it out.
If one enters the range of the attacker the target it hit 100% no chance of escape....
I think it could work if the attacker would MISS the target if not in range and then have a short cooldown of 1 sec before he can attack again. Still bows seems to be overpowered this way, since they have lot more range....

In regards to the new person thing they would essentially just stab you while on murder cooldown because they saw someone was stabbed and instead of asking anything they would stab and almost always say something to the tune of killing is bad. They attacked because they saw you with a murder weapon.

Skill based would definitely be better but that's not what Jason wants. He doesn't want a guy with a snowball disarming bad guys (it was a great solution to an idiot holding a loaded bow in town).

In regards to the sword it has existed in four states.

Super overpowered: It could stab someone repeatedly with no cooldown which lowers your injury stagger and kills you in four seconds instead of the normal sixty while also having no murder cooldown.

Overpowered: It got nerfed to only let you stab every 15 seconds but you could run full speed with the thing thus allowing you to hit and run down an entire town.

Strong: This version has murder slowdown for 15 seconds or so but you can toss the weapon this allowing you to basically juggle swords and stab people. If this didn't have the juggling aspect it would be much closer to balanced as you can technically use defense tactics to defend people on cooldown.

Useless: This is the current version due to the posse mechanic. The sword is rightfully a dead meme after all the crap we had to deal with.

Sword in its peak overpowered state: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAYdtRkFFIw

Sword after the original nerf: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTOOas0JH6g

And I don't think we have any videos on the third state of the sword.

Arcurus · 2020-06-12 11:45:16

fug wrote:

Sword in its peak overpowered state: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAYdtRkFFIw
Sword after the original nerf: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTOOas0JH6g
And I don't think we have any videos on the third state of the sword.

lol, actually even in the second video they managed to defend, which actually sounds much better then with the current posse system...

i guess a 1 second gap before you can attack with a new pulled out weapon plus a simple instinct based auto run away from people with weapon would have saved nearly all. Yea zoom is really a big advantage, at least one or two more tiles view if attacked, and or and "!" mark warning sign in which direction people with weapons are could help a lot.

That you drop your weapon if missed can be fixed very easily by not dropping stuff if you hold shift for attack.

I think all in all the combat system could be fixed quite easily.

What is now the difference between knife and sword?

Last edited by Arcurus (2020-06-12 11:46:36)

fug · 2020-06-12 12:05:40

Arcurus wrote:

fug wrote:
Sword in its peak overpowered state: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAYdtRkFFIw
Sword after the original nerf: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTOOas0JH6g
And I don't think we have any videos on the third state of the sword.

lol, actually even in the second video they managed to defend, which actually sounds much better then with the current posse system...
i guess a 1 second gap before you can attack with a new pulled out weapon plus a simple instinct based auto run away from people with weapon would have saved nearly all. Yea zoom is really a big advantage, at least one or two more tiles view if attacked, and or and "!" mark warning sign in which direction people with weapons are could help a lot.
That you drop your weapon if missed can be fixed very easily by not dropping stuff if you hold shift for attack.
I think all in all the combat system could be fixed quite easily.
What is now the difference between knife and sword?

They lost 15 people to get me though which was the problem with the sword.

Knife has a 60 second cooldown with slowed run rate and you can't drop it.

Sword has a 15 second cooldown with slowed run rate (now but in the video it had zero slowdown.) but you can toss it effectively making weapons you can juggle (which doesn't really matter with the current posse system anyways.)

And being able to defend 100% made the combat system better. You can distinctively see me fuck up and rearm myself via snowballing someone with a sword (as the sword was the much better weapon because of hit and run status.

My melee combat has always been rather sloppy but my bow + snowball is much cleaner as it was about luring people into specific tiles due to how autopathing works.

Jason is definitely not going to swap back to the more thrilling version of pvp and by extension anything other than killing as a means of griefing/anti-griefing is dead with it.

We've had wars in game that weren't Jason's version of one guy killing a whole town before as you can see if you look up any stories about the town ducks. The issue is people need a reason to fight and there's currently no reason to do it besides to be an asshat.

Gogo · 2020-06-12 14:22:18

WoodSpoon wrote:

Gogo wrote:
During wars males were dying and females were kept, I suggest the same for game, since we need all races. Kill all males from another family and their females will switch family name to yours. It will give you bonus to gene score (for all who joined a posse).
I like that actually, It gives males an actual role as well. I like the idea of conquest to include other races into your family, Even if it has kinda rapey implications lol.

But people from another family must be able to kill. As I understand posse system, you need equal/bigger hierarchy to form a posse against existing one, right? Can outsider follow the foreign leader (to be safe in foreign town)?

Last edited by Gogo (2020-06-12 14:23:08)

Arcurus · 2020-06-12 15:19:10

Gogo wrote:

WoodSpoon wrote:
Gogo wrote:
During wars males were dying and females were kept, I suggest the same for game, since we need all races. Kill all males from another family and their females will switch family name to yours. It will give you bonus to gene score (for all who joined a posse).
I like that actually, It gives males an actual role as well. I like the idea of conquest to include other races into your family, Even if it has kinda rapey implications lol.
But people from another family must be able to kill. As I understand posse system, you need equal/bigger hierarchy to form a posse against existing one, right? Can outsider follow the foreign leader (to be safe in foreign town)?

I think you need now a super majority for your posse, exiling counts negative, so having same amount of people might work if you exile them...

honestly i lost with all the changes now it works now exactly with posse... have to check the code...

yes you can follow the outsider leader, maybe the posse protection alone already is enough to protect you...

By the way, if you wander in a group around without zoom mod, making one of your group the leader without any further top leader is great, since the /leader command shows you where the leader is.

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Could war ever be enjoyable gameplay

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