a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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If you died with awbz mod using the self kill feature, it counted as disconnect.
Oh I see. Thanks.
I didn't think about the fact that that type of death can occur regardless of age.
So I guess it's fine to keep this stat as is.
What about sudden infant death though?
Does that count towards hunger?
you mean something like this? the percent here shows how many deaths were ignored related to the overall death count.
Yours is very picky
Yes! Thanks for that too.
So only 1/3 of my lives go past the 3 minutes mark.
I'm not really surprised.
I'm still curious to see how it plays out for other people though.
Are you available on the discord?
I'm definitely interested in helping you achieve your goal.
I would like to make changes to make widescreen work that way in OHOL, but I don't have one myself so I wouldn't be able to test those.
If perhaps we could talk on discord I could share with you testing binaries and we could work from there.
Here's mine for the year:
==========================================
Date 2019_01_01 - 2019_04_01
==========================================
------------------------------------------
firstEntry: Wed, 02 Jan 2019 06:13:34 GMT
lastEntry: Sat, 16 Mar 2019 14:16:13 GMT
------------------------------------------
births: 1088
deaths: 1088
timeAlive: 9d 15h 57m
males: 409
females: 679
males/females: 0.60
------------------------------------------
avg. death age: 37.65
Death by oldAge: 152 -> 41.87%
Death by hunger: 135 -> 37.19%
Death by killer: 10 -> 2.75%
Death by disconnect: 66 -> 18.18%
------------------------------------------
ignoredUnderAgeDeaths: 447
ignoredEveDeaths: 278
timeAliveIgnored: 6h 57m
------------------------------------------
born as eve: 290 -> 26.65%
avg. generation born into: 8.22
longest generation born into: 73
------------------------------------------
kids: 821
kids per female life: 4.15
avg. kid lifespan: 14.26
grandkids: 586
grandkids per female life: 2.96
------------------------------------------
kills: 3 -> 0.83%
avg. victim age: 32.99
victim female probability: 100.00%
==========================================
Thanks for the ignored Eve deaths suggestion, as you can see almost the totality of my Eve lives were ignored.
I sometimes do play in Eve camps as gen 1/2, but I never bother to try Eve runs as searching for a good spot would most likely be a terribly boring task to me.
Though I wonder, what does death by disconnects include?
Is it sudden infant death? Or actual network timeouts?
And does it also include the use of the old """exploit""" in Awbz's client?
Anyways, this is all very interesting.
I noticed how some people including me are pickier than others.
I have 6 hours of ignored playtime, that's enormous! That's all time I literally wasted. 6 hours just watching my screen for nothing.
I saw karltown also has 7 hours and Tarr 10.
I think it'd be interesting to also try to calculate how picky different people are.
Maybe you could have a total ignored death count and have a percentage given the total number of deaths next to that.
A percentage of lives that were actually taken seriously/were most likely actually productive.
Though it might be overshadowed by careless moms simply letting you starve.
Unless it's possible to make the difference with sudden infant deaths.
Yeah, the email-search feature on the lineage browser is a huge info leak... .but it's so convenient to be able to search for your own email.... hmm...
Not sure how to fix that in the future.
Personally I have always enjoyed the anonymity in this game.
That's why I didn't share any of my lineages in this thread and intend to use the tool on my own, privately.
I definitely think people shouldn't be able to find all your previous lives (and make states about you without even needing to ask you) simply because you shared one lineage link.
I, in fact, have done this in the past so if people dig enough in my posting history they might find out my hash.
Since both the name and hash figure on the records, someone could also search for a specific person they disliked or had an argument with or whatever, find out the hash, and considering someone might be able to build up a list of people along with corresponding hashes, could figure out if it was really you or someone else.
Suddenly people can come up to you and say "Hey! You did x in life y, I hate you!".
On the other hand, I do like the idea of being able to personally get the data of your previous lives granted you are actually the person behind them.
So to sum up my opinion, I think people other than you shouldn't be able to get data on your previous lives while we should still personally remain able to in order to make personal stats.
It seems you also originally intended for people to be able to make global stats (which doesn't imply that they should be able to figure out who is who) and that's also perfectly fine.
There's definitely solutions to this problem.
You can keep storing the data in the same way, but instead of having a per-account hash, you could just use that plus some salt added to it and encrypt it using a public/private key system.
So you generate a pair of key per accounts and encrypt their hash using the account's public key and later the user can figure out if it's his life or not by using his private key.
I'm not a data security expert (I never had to solve such a problem ever) so that's probably a very dumb idea but I would start from there.
Seems like that should also apply to squash seeds, no?
Definitely.
Or maybe squash seeds could be changed.
As in, having a way to get more than just one seed per squash you grow.
I can't think of any other crop in the game that doesn't have multiplicative seeding (as in getting more seeds than you initially planted).
Yeah this happened to me a few times after the temperature/clothing updates.
https://0x0.st/ziwg.jpg
It just would get stuck at max temp and going in the arctic wouldn't help at all (the arrow wouldn't even move).
More recently it's been a little different though, now it still gets "stuck" in the red but not at max anymore for me.
Going in the arctic in this case helps but moves the arrow only a tiny bit.
I think there might be a bug or something.
I thought back when the temperature update happened Jason wanted to address mosquitoes being absolutely deadly while wearing clothes.
Or maybe I just misunderstood something.
The next section doesnt count deaths under the age of 3 or disconnects
Could you also ignore the short Eve lives?
Some people get born as Eve but suicide (just like being a baby in a town you don't want to be in) by running in a boar or something.
Maybe don't count Eve deaths under 17 (14 + 3)?
Thanks for the tools by the way, I might try it out myself in the near future.
No, it's not, because such foods can get made and then eaten for yum for fertility reasons, and fertility is not selfish.
Wasting pips away for the sake of your own fertility is, by definition, selfish.
Keep in mind we're talking about inefficient foods here.
So effectively what you're doing is you're wasting a bunch of pips (which could have been preserved by cooking an efficient type of food instead) to benefit your own fertility.
If instead you had produced a net increase in pips by making an efficient food then the whole village could have used those pips and in turn benefit from the yum bonus as well instead of just you.
Inefficiency is meaningless without fertility. A whole village that just drank milk will have lower fertility chances than if they have a more varied diet. The more varied diet comes as more likely to ensure their survival.
You're trying to defend making wasteful foods for the purpose of yumming when you could instead make non wasteful foods also for the purpose of yumming.
What?
So you're trying to give the town a varied diet while simultaneously wasting a bunch of pips away which could instead have been used to feed and make more people benefit from your work.
The point being that you can increase the overall fertility of your village without wasting pips and yet you choose to waste pips anyways.
What part of this doesn't spell out inefficiency for you?
A whole village that just drank milk is better than a whole village who didn't benefit a single bit from you wasting their pips away.
Additionally, if the person can get useful work done in their late 50s because of yum, I'm not so sure they were being all that selfish.
I can get useful work done in my late 50s regardless of yumming or not.
That can already happen with enough people cooking for yum and organizing the village for purposes of yum.
Which, as my whole post points out and as my suggestions try to solve, is overshadowed by you selfishly making inefficient foods instead of efficient foods.
Why do you insist on defending making inefficient foods instead of efficient foods? Are you evil or something?
This, by the way, is an unworkable strategy.
You're trying to make your village more fertile which means have a higher birthrate which in turn means more mouths to be fed.
And you're doing that while simultaneously wasting pips away which could have been used to feed those new mouths.
You're increasing the population while simultaneously decreasing the food supply.
Are you evil? Is your purpose to create the biggest famine ever recorded in OHOL history?
No, it doesn't make elders dependent on them. The elders aren't yumming enough if they are dependent on berries.
Alright, so, the only difference between an elder and a child regarding yum is that elders in theory had time to build up a yum chain before their food capacity went down.
Meaning that you expect them to yum while they're adults. Yet they don't.
Do you know why? I know because it happens to me often.
It happens because while I was working my ass off at whatever project I was tackling, nobody bothered to make milk/skim milk or sauerkraut or bread or whatever.
So I end up with having to fall back on berries once again.
Which again points to the same problem.
Maybe you should have spent more time producing efficient yumming foods for more people in your town to benefit from. Then perhaps elders would yum more.
Ah that reminds me, I oftentimes use low population servers to fix my zoom level, so I get born as Eve, fix zoom, then kill myself to an animal. Darn, it's gonna skew the numbers a bit. Lots of deaths at 14-15.
Protip: I use the tutorial.
The "reward" of subverting the entire point of the game?
I thought your main issue with this was that you thought people used multiple lineages to basically bypass the ban and keep playing continuously?
I absolutely wasn't hinting at this and in fact I even addressed this point a few lines down below:
If you were concerned with people living lives back to back given two lineages, why not make it so the previous ban stays if it's within the same area?
That way you could get banned from both lineages even if you get born in them in succession essentially making the only benefit for individuals be an extended lifetime which is a reward for keeping two lineages alive in the first place.
Perhaps you misunderstood my suggestion.
If you end up being banned from both lineages after 2 hours of playtime, how does this not fix the issue of people playing continuously?
Or did you in fact understand the suggestion but decide that it was still subverting the experience?
I find this kind of odd considering that you allow people below 30 to be given another "shot" at life when they accidentally die to a boar or mosquitoes.
Isn't this subverting the experience, then?
Why would allowing a total of 2 hours of playtime be subverting the game according to you when a total of 1h30 (which already goes beyond one hour and as such violates the promise of the title) is something actively used in the game both by Eves and regular players?
What's the difference?
EDIT:
I suspect that you want to go back to doing that
Seems odd that you would suggest this when in the exact same post I pointed out how incredibly rare it was.
You know the best part is I can't even remember ONE single time where I actually used this (intentionally or unintentionally).
and you're just not telling me that directly.
Do you really think I come on your forums and bother to make my points as clear as possible and try to make useful suggestions/give constructive criticism just because I want to manipulate you into making my life easier?
Yeah... Seems kind of belittling...
Once more, I'll point out:
a) The area ban removes from your pool of children only those who have recently been in the hypothetical large town nearby.
b) Servers have many towns, and most players will not have recently been in the town near you.
c) The number of players removed from your pool of children is much smaller than the number of players still in your pool.
Therefore:
d) The area ban has little effect on your fertility.
I don't think this holds true at all. That conclusion seems a bit naive.
When do you consider a player is part of a "pool" exactly?
If we're talking about the total population of the server then it's not very useful at all.
Of course people who are already playing can still theoretically be born in your town, but will they?
They're already playing. Who says they'll die soon? Who is to say they'll keep playing after their current lives?
I think, mathematically speaking, it is much more useful to model this problem as a rate of individual players who are trying to be born (matching a rate of disconnection/people who stop playing for now which gives rise to an average of 100 active players on the server).
Say you have x birth per y minutes.
The babies are distributed randomly across lineages, with some weight given females fertility (given yum and temperature).
This is all fine of course, towns are expected to compete for babies according to Jason.
The problem arises when you include the ability for individual babies to "re-roll the dice" and try their luck elsewhere while simultaneously eliminating their previous choice from their set of possibilities.
You probably underestimated the amount of babies who use the /die command. In my experience I'd say at least 50% of my babies use the command and actively choose/manipulate the town in which they're born.
Given that babies very very often try to manipulate the town in which they end up, the lineage ban absolutely comes into play.
If you have a town that overlaps with your area, and within that town a female is yumming and staying at a good temperature (which is not easily feasible for a competing Eve camp) then you can be SURE that some babies are going to end up banning themselves from both your and the neighboring town (while erasing yours from their set of possibilities unwillingly).
So yes, the area ban DOES affect your fertility compared to the previous lineage banning mechanic. There is no doubt about this.
This model also predicts/explains why so many people including me have noticed much fewer usage of /die than before is enough to send you to Eve hell recently.
And this I definitely dislike. If Jason didn't decide to revert this change, I would probably have started actively running as a baby like so many others have.
Sometimes it takes just 4 use of the command to be banned from every "areas". Am I supposed to believe that there are only 4 towns on a server of a little more than 100 people?
I didn't even know the other towns from which I got banned with the command and after that I can't even take a look at it and decide for myself if I would like to help it.
This is unfair to both the town and the individual babies trying to be born into it.
I heard that people were using multiple lineages in the same city as a way to keep working on their projects life after life. This is not good. That is not the point of the game. The point of the game is passing on what you worked on when you die! That is pretty much the only point of this game.
This is incredibly uncommon.
Keeping one lineage alive is hard enough as it is.
Keeping two is twice as hard!
I barely ever saw two-lineage towns before anyways. Now I see none.
I think a family making the effort to migrate and merge with another town should definitely have its rewards.
Why else would you even have planes/bell towers to encourage migration from other families?
My point being having one "pool" of babies for a single lineage is sometimes not enough already, sharing one between two is unsustainable making the idea of migration/merge not worth anything.
Seeing anything more than a seventh cousin is already extremely rare within the same lineage.
Doing the effort of migrating and keeping up two lineages should have its rewards.
If you were concerned with people living lives back to back given two lineages, why not make it so the previous ban stays if it's within the same area?
That way you could get banned from both lineages even if you get born in them in succession essentially making the only benefit for individuals be an extended lifetime which is a reward for keeping two lineages alive in the first place.
I don't understand why: [..] should be so much better than [..] just because the chain was broken. I think a more realistic "yum factor" would give a bonus to average diversity over say the last 40 pips eaten, not force you to try to remember the last 8 things you ate so you end up picking up food and putting it down again looking for yum.
I also agree that this is an excellent point.
In general, I think yum should be rethought a bit.
The purpose of a yum mechanic is obviously to incentivize the production and use of varied foods.
Nothing wrong with that.
The main problem with it is exactly what you point out: the chain makes it so that you either have people not yum ever, people who break their chain often (and have its rewards dramatically reduced) or marathon yummers.
One could argue that having yum working this way gives rare foods a much higher value.
But this is in truth a terrible thing. Rare foods are rare for a reason. They can often be inefficient and a net loss of pips.
Encouraging people to make such foods is never a good idea because it is selfish by definition.
The only other possibility for a rare food is that it actually is rare or hard to make rather than flat out never made because of its inefficiency.
The line between a food not made (and as such being rare) because of it being hard/complex and it being absolutely inefficient can be blurry.
Off the top of my head, sauerkraut and milk are the only food I would consider somewhat rare but at the same time efficient. So those are pretty much the only food that are favored by yum in this way positively as far as I can tell.
I think the fact that the current yum mechanic results in this "marathon yummers" trend kind of undermines its original goal which was to encourage varied diets.
It seems to me a lot of people would rather selfishly make and eat inefficient foods rather than spend more time producing an abundance of complex but good foods like milk/sauerkraut so that their whole village can benefit from it instead of just them.
So yes, rethinking the yum mechanic so that it is more sensible to variation would definitely help.
Some sort of general pip multiplier would be ideal.
Because then, you don't just get rewarded for eating ONCE a food, you get rewarded for simply varying your diet, even if that means eating a lot of the same food like pies for example.
People could have a diet with pie as their principal meal (like many people do) but simply varying a bit here and there with some milk or stew would keep their multiplier up.
If that is achieved, no more selfish people eating inefficient foods, all that would be encouraged by the mechanic is producing an abundance of varied foods for the entire village to benefit from.
You might still have a couple rare marathon yummers who only care about their fertility.
That's where pein's idea of a cap would work best.
Sure, eating a variety of food should be good for you, but at some point the multiplier should stop increasing.
Yumming would then be akin to temperature management.
Making sure it's good will increase your fertility, but you can only do so much.
This could also result in increased general productivity rather than individual productivity as now a mother could be fertile up to a certain amount.
After that nothing can be done, or can it? Competing for babies could still be possible after that, by simply having MORE fertile females in your village.
Making the fertility competition also a village problem rather than an individual problem fundamentally.
I also remember an interesting idea pein had a while ago: negative yum.
Having the multiplier go down a bit if you keep eating the same thing could maybe help.
The goal here would be to stop berry munching practices.
Although it can still be argued that berry munchers would still eat the berries even if their yum goes down.
It would simply make it less efficient and as such could actually be detrimental to a town in the end.
Perhaps to stop this, people could get "sick" of a particular food and refuse to eat "one more damn berry" if their yum multiplier got low enough by eating only berries.
I don't know what the general opinion is on this, but personally I am sick of the current berry meta.
Why berries? Berries everywhere. Berries after berries after berries after berries.
It also doesn't help that the temperature update incentivized berries once again by making naked children/elders even more dependent on them.
Why do berries need to be the central engine that runs a city systematically?
We're reaching a point in civilization where I can build a plane but I'm still forced to go back and forth to water the graying berries always.
It's getting kind of stale. Isn't the point of the game to "evolve or die"? When can we "evolve" our farms and automate them to some degree?
Here is an actual lawyer talking about what happened to him;
Okay so the only thing making this "not fraud" and as such "legal" according to him and you is that they did not intend to cause harm to Jason.
Well, at what point does something become "intended" once you alert and explain to the person that they're doing something wrong?
Jason has contacted them and they have read his explanation. So they are "aware". Can they still use that excuse to do bad things? I don't think so.
Furthermore, they asked for clarification along the way, and I gave it, explaining that claiming sole authorship would be fraud. They they claimed sole authorship anyway for 40+ days in China, the largest market the game has ever been exposed to.
So not only did they go against common sense, libel law, etc. They also went against the specific clarification that I gave them, early and often, while they were working on their version of the game.
In fact, my clarification was that they didn't have to give me credit---BUT that they couldn't take sole credit themselves. From May 2018:
So, just be sure to make this clear. Same game, but an unofficial port, by you guys, but based on my work. You don't HAVE to say that it is based on my work, by the way (there is no attribution license in place here), but if you're claiming authorship yourselves, you'd better mention this so as not to commit fraud.
They were perfectly aware of this fact.
The mere fact that there was an "agreement" (which they confirmed was real) in the first place proves this.
And, as Jason points out, something seems fishy:
(even though their programmer is a native Chinese speaker who could clearly read the splash screen, and obviously must have looked at it during that 40 day window, and obviously would know that the other correct wording was there for a very important reason)
Let's also put two and two together here.
The only reason this all came to be is due to the fact that the mobile devs were using the same title that Jason used.
But not out of laziness. It was because (and they confirmed this) they initially intended to be the "official" mobile port of the game affiliated with Jason and all of that.
They didn't want to be like any other copycat who could quickly port the game to mobile. They wanted a stamp of "approval" or "authenticity".
Which, as you may have deduced, could have been obtained by claiming authorship.
Seems like you didn't read all of the threads regarding this considering you only JUST learned the game is copyright free.
I would suggest doing so before you continue on saying nonsense.
Jason's accusation of fraud are founded and asking for reparation can hardly be considered harassment.
That doesn't really answer the question at all.
This was for the bigserver update and I remember it, I was there too.
Note how he talks of only 4 servers max for the main population instead of 14.
What do you do with the remaining 10? Why are they here? That's the question.
Note how he also states that his goal is to have everyone in a single server.
A single big server. Well, why have 14 extras then?
I saw a "friends" button on login screen but dont know what is it.
This is how twinning is achieved.
Which by the way implies that coordinating through means other than the game itself is actually something Jason acknowledges and freely allows on every servers.
That's also why twins are so controversial. Have you heard of mothers killing their twin babies? Yeah, that happens and is absolutely allowed.
People killing babies due to the fear of strangers happens all the time when twins are born.
all that you write is pure assumption nothing more
It's funny that you completely disregarded any of my direct questions.
You didn't even attempt to answer a single one.
Are you afraid to reach a conclusion that might contradict your opinion?
Why don't we talk about you anyways.
All that you write is based off of assumptions too.
Why do you assume the complete opposite of what I assume? What's your reasoning behind this?
My reasoning is extremely simple: there is a mechanic that allows people to perpetually find and work on their town when they are on their own, why should that be despite the fact that Jason doesn't want people to be able to return to previous lineages in general?
Seems paradoxical doesn't it? Maybe it means, oh I don't know, that both playstyles are actually intended and valid?
Which is strongly reinforced by the fact that this mechanic exclusively works if there is a low enough population on a given server.
then i would prefer to have those servers taken from the official access to everybody, cause apparently they are then not meant that way
just to not have anybody doing things the wrong way
You also seem to think that both playstyles cannot coexist for some reason. Why?
Why can't they both be valid?
People paid to have access to these servers. Why should they be taken off?
Also, once again and this is the last time I will say it, nothing was "done the wrong way" here.
People used ingame mechanics that were implemented and approved by Jason himself.
And if you're still not convinced, let me show you something that will BLOW your mind.
I also envision wars between villages.
Do you see that? What's happening here is something Jason actually hoped would happen. Unbelievable, right?
so far i directed people to the low pop servers to play solo or in small groups & i played on them that way myself,
if i was wrong, i didn't know that this is not the way they have to be used & this should be clarified in the future
You weren't wrong. Again, both playstyles can coexist. Because, and this is also the last time I will say it, nobody said you couldn't play on that specific server.
After the community banned you from their lineage, you were still perfectly free to respawn in that server as an Eve.
And possibly even play with your friends and make a town of your own as well which is something you yourself just recommended to friends and as such asserted was a possibility. You're literally contradicting yourself there.
Which is it? Are people allowed to play in groups in the small servers or not?
If your only defense to this argument is that "well when we play in groups on the small servers we don't kill the babies we don't know" then I'm sorry to tell you that this is absolutely allowed without any doubts.
Murder-induced lineage banning is part of the gameplay and people are allowed to use it at their own discretion.
There's no way around that. So yes, killing babies you do not know is perfectly acceptable in this game.
atm i feel like i am playing OHOL wrong cause
i am playing the game vanilla,
i am not a member of any discord or any other group,
i am playing it constructively,
i am not playing it as an overachiever, not trying to pack as many things into it as humanly possible, even if it means to use mods,
i am not griefing,
i am not killing, not even in revenge,
i am not claiming any ownership over any of the things i've made in game,
i am enjoying it to meet randomly with people i don't know
i am enjoying it to spawn in places i have no control over whatsoever
if all that is wrong, then ok, the other game this thread suggests is not my way & i will indeed just remove myself & let the elitists play it their way
Again, nobody said that your playstyle is wrong.
Both can coexist without one destroying the other.
If you want the randomness then you can play on the bigserver.
If not, then you can play on the small extra servers even if there is another community making a town there.
Reading through this thread burns my soul.
there is no such thing in OHOL as "your town"
if you play that way you play a game that was never intended & therefore every other player is entitled to butt in & do whatever they like, because that's the game intended
Why do you think the extra servers exist in the first place?
Answer me this question.
Why do you think there is actually a mechanic in place that allows Eves to find their town back when the server has a low enough population?
Answer these questions please.
If you're going to argue that Jason doesn't care about this particular playstyle, then why did he bother with 14 extra servers? Doesn't that seem a bit overkill to you?
Why would he bother with an Eve respawn mechanic if he didn't intend for this to happen in the first place?
I also find it indecent of you to come here and shit on other people's playstyle just because you don't like it.
Like, let people enjoy the game however they want maybe?
You do realize that what people pay for in Jason's business model is access to his servers, right?
So in essence you're basically crying over people using the public servers (for which they paid to have access to) in a way that was actually intended anyways.
Who are you to decide what happens and what doesn't on Jason's servers?
All these people who claim that Jason doesn't want this to happen are just flat out wrong.
What would the point of having 14 extra servers be then?
People who do this and are SO eager to get Jason to back them up just generally disgust me.
What are you trying to accomplish? Is destroying other people's playstyle all you care about? What is getting Jason to agree with you going to accomplish exactly?
This is pathetic.
You've also made it blatantly clear that you don't even bother to acknowledge other people's argument and just flat out ignore them.
I would advise anyone in this thread to stop responding to this person.
Let the troll cry about people not taking his shit.
Same thing happened to me a few days ago.
I thought Jason intended to fix the "clothes being deadly for mosquitoes" problem?
EDIT: Just played again today.
Now it seems to happen every single time.
If fully clothed, temp gets stuck at max no matter what.
This needs to be fixed ASAP. Clothes are death trap for bugs once again.
So I've thought a bit more about the prison subject and I still don't think this will ever work. At all.
I'm not planning to add anything to make prisons happen. You currently have all the tools you need with walls, doors, and locks. In terms of preventing escape, well, an air lock is possible. But if there is an escape, that would be pretty amazing. A prison break, in the game?
People started with nothing, and came up with those structures and procedures over thousands of years. Under different circumstances (like in this game), different structures and procedures might emerge.
[...]
A lot of this stuff may never emerge, but I'm going to at least keep those doors open.
Yes, the concept of emergence is something fascinating indeed.
But let's not forget that it also follows the principle of least effort.
You're giving people three ways to deal with griefers. Let me enumerate them from least to most expansive:
-Curse the griefer potentially sending him to DT
-Kill the griefer
-Expand a bunch of resources in building a whole jail cell and then more resources just to keep the prisoner alive
What do you think will happen? It's easy to predict.
People will NEVER build prisons just to deal with griefers. They would MUCH rather kill them personally and curse them.
But since you insist on leaving the door opened, griefers might start building some and try and stun innocent victims and imprison them and what not.
Meaning this will be yet again another feature exclusively abused by griefers.
My hypothesis is that it's because DEATH has no meaning in those other games. Society is a reaction to the reality of death. Without death, "Stop or we'll shoot" has no meaning. Thus, there can be no laws or police.
It's getting a bit philosophical here but that's alright, I like that.
I think there is MUCH more to this than you realize.
Okay so first things first is understanding that people will play your game regardless of whether or not they will die.
The very fact that you have people playing in smaller servers to continuously build gigantic cities absolutely proves that.
See what I mean? Whether or not people die, whether or not they can make sure they will return to what they have previously built, people keep on building/playing anyways.
Have you ever heard the saying "it's about the journey not the destination"?
Ok so now imagine if we made death meaningless in the game, as in people can continuously play or always spawn back to where they left.
Now imagine all those people would play alongside everyone else who used the smaller servers previously.
Do you think anarchy would arise? No. Absolutely not. People would still despise griefers like they do now.
Imagine if humanity evolved someday to become an invulnerable species. Do you think anarchy would ensue?
No. Society would still exist because society isn't the result of the reality of death, it's the result of the reality that you have to live alongside other people.
If humanity were to evolve to such a point, most likely breaking the rules would mean infinite purgatory. Infinite prison. Just as if death had meaning, only now it doesn't.
Communities form regardless of the fact that we will die. And communities have rules to ensure its people can live in peace and that anarchy doesn't arise.
Breaking the rules in any community results in you being banned/expelled/rejected from said community. That's how rules work.
Sure, if we are deathless, "stop or we'll shoot" has no meaning.
But if you think of something else like "I'm going to destroy this entire city you spent a lifetime building just because I can" suddenly people react even despite the fact that they won't die.
If we are deathless, "stop or we'll ban you from this community" or "stop or we'll forcibly put you into purgatory forever" will still hold meaning.
You bet people would form a society to protect and guarantee their values regardless of the fact that they won't die.
This is a work of fiction. "Slavery" in the game isn't the same as real slavery. Injustice and murder in the game are not real injustice or real murder. Corrupt police in the game are not actually corrupt police.
You might not have realized this, but this will never work for the exact same reason.
As you have pointed out, this is not real.
Sure, people might find themselves in such a situation and a few roleplayers might enjoy it.
But what do you think will happen with those that don't? Do you think they will simply stand and take it?
No. Absolutely not. People will just disconnect and make sure to wait one hour or that they have starved before coming back.
Imagine if, as a slave, my master forces me to do the most boring tasks of this game like taking care of his berry bushes my whole life. Or just straight out makes me spend my whole life in purgatory while force-feeding me.
Do you think I will stand and take this? No. I will simply not play your game if this happens. And this is why it won't work.
As was already said so many times: you cannot force people to play something they don't want to play.
And your idea of not letting people get out of lives goes against this. This cannot work by design. It never will.
Even if you charged people per life it wouldn't work.
It's also conflicting that you let babies suicide before they are 3 but not after.
Why is that? You let people choose their lives but only if they're young enough? Why?
I can already imagine the people being born to a slave mother using /die en masse.
Thus if you are a slave owner you would have to keep taking adults against their will or end up with no slaves.
A slave's lineage would most likely never continue and the other people you take by force except the occasional roleplayer here and there would just disconnect and wait it out anyways making slaves utterly useless and essentially unviable.
I can also imagine how being born as black might result in immediate /die.
I have already seen people ingame make the joke of calling me a nigger because I'm black. Like you say, it's not real so I don't care one bit.
But I'm willing to bet griefers or roleplayers will very much enjoy making black people slaves. The result would be insta /die for black babies. I guarantee this.
And all of this is because the idea is flawed by design.
The fact that you let people choose their lives if they are under 3 is absolute proof of this.
It makes the whole thing incomplete.
You either go all the way and never let people choose their lives and face the truth that this idea is unworkable while seeing hundreds of running babies or you let people choose their lives whenever they want.
Because, the truth is that everyone who plays this game is different. Everyone plays it for different reasons.
Some people play this game for its survival aspect, others for its building aspect and few for its roleplaying aspect.
Some enjoy dealing with griefers while others would quit at the sight of one.
Some like early Eve camps, some like megacities.
And all of this means that individual lives cannot satisfy everyone. The fact that you have the /die compromise is proof of that.
You need to have this compromise in the game otherwise it means only very few people would enjoy it and as a result it would not work.
I want to make a game where anything is possible, in terms of social structure, and it's totally up to the players.
This further shows the disconnect.
Sure, having anything possible in terms of social structure is fine and all, but there are still players behind their computer trying to play the game despite that structure.
It doesn't change the fact that if that social structure gets in their way of enjoying this game, they will simply no longer want to play it.
And as soon as that happens, the whole thing falls appart. People stop playing.
This is why you need the compromise. Rather than having your players quit your game because they aren't enjoying their current lives, you should instead be focusing on providing them the right tools for them to choose their lives and start enjoying it again and as a result play more and get more players.
A would-be murderer or thief does not actually fear for their life in the game, because respawning is cheap enough that it really doesn't matter too much. Yes, they can't come right back to the same situation, but they can keep playing.... That is in part why curses were added,
The curse system also is evidence of the fact that this game needs a compromise.
Even if you made death be meaningful, there would still be griefers.
Even if there was the risk of getting imprisoned they would still grief.
You know why? Because they would disconnect as soon as they're caught by force.
Even if you enforced a value to life (and so to death) by charging per lives, those people would still exist.
If what they enjoy is just watching the world burn, they would still pay every lives just to watch it burn once again.
Or if you made us deathless, those people would still exist.
Because at the end of the day, for these people, all that matters is that the world burns.
I also envision wars between villages.
You should definitely give this a lot of thinking.
Because if you do intend for people to fight in any meaningful way, that means you also intend for PVP to be a thing.
I would strongly suggest on working on the fighting system because as of right now it is purely frustrating and terribly lacking.
You also open a door by saying that you support PVP.
Some people, including me, had the impression that this game was never intended to have PVP (due to the way it 'works') and that instead building a civilization was the focus.
If you didn't have a strong building element in mind for this game, why else would you make a plane or a radio update for these people?
Giving more options for PVP might very well get in the way of the people who play in this game because they like its building element.
This comes down to the same issue which is that you cannot satisfy everyone.
If it ever comes to this and if the game ever becomes popular enough for it, I would strongly recommend setting up multiple public servers, some with a peaceful setting for people who don't like fighting/want to play the game for its civ building element only.
One thing that I might add, that would at least make prisons more likely, is some form of non-lethal force. Clubbing or something like that.
On that note, you could make snowballs do that instead of outright killing people.
I'm curious, have you read the recent topics about snowballs/snowmen and what people think of them?
I've seen some people here mention Children of men.
Though I didn't read the book, I only watched the movie.
Anyone who knows what Children of men is knows what I'm talking about lol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMD5c6rLw14
Rope is important.
I think the consensus at this point is buildings aren't worth it overall anyways. You gain very little in terms of temperature, you create a clutter nightmare due to limiting your space without adequate storing options in game, and we have the door problem. At first it seemed like you wanted multiple doors to minimize chances of things being locked and requiring the hassle of removing the lock but with more doors you end up having to micromanage more around whether the people even care to shut them after leaving. Making heat gates to slow people down (you open one door, walk two tiles and have to open) just leads to people leaving both doors open anyways.
With opening and closing doors being manual it feels really gimmicky to go around and open every single door and then close it when you want to leave. The door issue also adds into the fact that buildings are not fast to make in the first place. If it takes me longer to build a "proper" building than it does something like a diesel engine it should be worth my time shouldn't it? After looking at the results other people have been having with buildings it's clear. There's no reason to keep making them. They take too long, do too little, and in general just make an area less desirable through their limiting factors.
Amen to that.
Though this thread is about doors specifically but I definitely agree to everything you said about buildings in general.
As for the doors, the absolute worst I find is when the only available fire is inside the nursery building while you're working as a smith (or just need charcoal).
This is hell. I just want to light up my forge!
I am of the opinion that doors should just be automated.
Why do we need to open/close them manually? Does that add anything to the game?
There are lots of issues because of this.
The pathing gets very annoying very fast.
Sure, it's fine if you click just once though.
I don't know about other people but personally I've stopped doing that long ago.
I think people just learn to either make continuous mouse clicks or just spam click because whenever you have to walk long distances you have to keep clicking otherwise your character just stops as your destination is offscreen 99% of the time.
Second is due to the fact that your camera is moving a lot especially if you're trying to go in/out of a building (as it often covers a lot of your screen). So while the first click to open it is fine (sometimes), closing it can be extra tedious.
I realize that this issue doesn't specifically affect doors but since buildings are supposed to be common, so is opening and closing doors which makes them extra stressful/tedious to work with.
I also find it kind of odd that you let us build roads that can make us travel automatically but not doors that open automatically.
I mean the link isn't super-obvious and hard to describe but hopefully you get what I mean.
You're willing to give us quality of life features for moving but it stops at doors. Why doors specifically?
I guess what I'm trying to get at here is that if you're going to argue that we need doors to be manual because they are in real life then why wouldn't it apply to walking too?
Or maybe you could argue that you have auto-walking roads because in real life our brains often do go into some sort of auto-pilot mode when you have to take a long and familiar walk and just does the work for us while we think about other stuff. But that would also apply to doors or any repetitive task in general.
Eventually, I'd like to have an automatic animation, like JoshuaN described, using the existing sounds and motions.
I have been thinking of coding an auto door pathing/opening/closing feature for my own client lately. I've just been generally lazy so I never got to it.
But AFAIK roads are already working that way: the client does everything on its own and the server knows nothing. So essentially what happens with roads is that clients have an auto-walker coded in them.
And that's how I would do auto-doors (as a client feature).
Though if Jason were to do it this way, he might run into the problem of other people interfering with the door opening/closing and I'm not sure how you could fix that.
Multiple people using a door at the same time already results in conflict anyways automatic or not and I'm pretty sure the only way to address that would be serversided.
How else would prisons be possible? If DC was suicide, any prisoner would just suicide. As it stands, you can currently feed a prisoner and keep them alive a whole hour.
So wait, you aren't just trolling me here, are you?
You mean to tell me the only reason you don't give people a proper way to disconnect is because you plan on having "prisons" eventually in the game?
I'm really just thinking you're trolling me here, because the amount of thought that would need to go into this in order to make it work right is unfathomable.
What's required to put someone in jail? If it's not much, it's the worst griefing mechanic this game would ever see.
If it's too much, you would be yet again putting your faith in humanity like you did with knives and honestly that didn't seem to go too well.
If you're thinking of people building jail cells with locks and everything, oh boy. Locks are just terrible right now and building is pretty slow, people will most likely prefer killing grifers over building a whole cell for them.
How would people even be able to force-feed prisoners without having them escape or being in the cell with them constantly?
Why would they bother wasting food and resources over just outright killing their prisoners?
Did you read the recent threads about the curse system? What did you think of that? Is this why you have been so silent on that subject?
Were you just silently planning a prison update all along as a response to those threads?
If I'm not just being trolled, I'm very, very curious on this.
What's your vision exactly? Do you expect a police force to arise from fully developed towns?
Isn't this going to take us billions of updates to get there (and we're better off with proper disconnection until then just like we have the curse system right now instead of prisons)?
Is it going to obsolete the curse system completely?
Well, if they DC currently, they stay alive in game. If they reconnect to the same server, they rejoin that same life. As long as they are fed, they stay alive as a zombie. So you can "trap" someone in prison for an hour by force-feeding them.
Could you explain why that is? Why would you insist on keeping disconnected people alive?
I'm talking about actual disconnection here. People who time out, sure you can and should keep them alive, but for anyone else, why?
The way I see it, it only encourages bad behavior.
You say you think it's cruel that a baby can die on their mom after they are past a year old.
Well.. Isn't misleading the mom into thinking you're still alive (and thus keep wasting her time and pips on you) when you're clearly not going to even more cruel?
Or making her chase you until you starve (potentially putting her in danger at the same time)?
Why do that? What if someone thinks you just had to go to the toilet mid-game and feeds you hoping you come back only to realize they have wasted their time and food on you?
But that's just from the perspective of other people.
From the perspective of the player, something much worse happens.
Why force me to go out and suicide? What's the point? I'm genuinely asking you this, Jason. What's the point of doing this?
If I'm going to give up, forcing me back into this life until I finally decide to make sure I actually die is utterly pointless.
All this will accomplish is force me to waste a bunch of my time making sure I see my death through.
It's as if you don't want people to have the freedom to go and try their luck elsewhere when they feel their current lives will have no impact and that they're unable to rectify the situation or just plain out fed up with the town in general. Maybe the town is filled with rude people?
If you don't want people to be able to do that, things get very, very ugly.
Let's assume that you find a way to fix this and that you somehow manage to force people to finish their lives no matter what they want.
What happens is you have certain people who want to effectively die but are unable to of their own accord.
Well... Griefing. That's right. If you were to do this, you would have effectively created an actual incentive for people to grief villages. There would be an actual benefit for such people as getting others to kill them would be the only effective way to let them go away and try their luck in another village.
And if you then solve that problem by making sure that people can't play the game or get sent to donkey town if they try to get others to kill them as a deterrent from giving up, something even worse happens.
People would still grief. En masse. But without letting others know it this time.
You would have people who wouldn't want to die but want to have fun in the game while their current lives cannot provide that for them. What's the only thing left? Griefing.
You cannot win this, as someone already said.
It's impossible to force people into playing lives they don't want to play. It's like forcing someone to play a game they don't want to play.
Things go wrong.
So, Jason, I ask you. Why do you insist on keeping disconnected people alive? What's the point?
As far as /die working beyond 1 year.... why? Isn't 60 seconds enough to make that decision? And letting a mother care for you for 120 seconds to just /die at the end is cruel...
You seem to think of the die command as some sort of early opt out for babies or a tool only used by people who want to lineage-ban themselves.
What you don't get is that people aren't just asking for that. What people are asking for is a proper disconnection mechanism.
This is the feature that was missing and what the mod addressed.
I'm not sure if you're aware yet, but this has been discussed to a great extent in another thread before.
I remember arguing about this with a forum user called "WomanWizard" particularly, and the only genuine difference that was pointed out was that the babies who suicide on you without resetting your cooldown (which was already happening with running babies) could now do so faster than before.
As in do it quicker and as such to a greater number of mothers in a smaller amount of time.
That's it. Despite him hating people who use the shortcut, he still didn't deny that they should have the possibility of trying their luck in another town.
I really think that you should stop and consider this a bit more before jumping in and making changes.
There are a lot of aspects to consider with this issue.
I'd also like to direct your attention to another issue which is runner babies.
This problem got almost eradicated after Awbz changed his shortcut although I still saw the rare one baby who would run from their mom from time to time.
If you render the mod's shortcut useless, this issue will start getting widespread again (as it has in the past).
This also clearly indicates that indeed people who do use this shortcut simply want to suicide no matter what (and giving them a shortcut to do so is simply a quality of life improvement at that point).
I just remembered that for mothers that run away from BBs, I don't WANT them to have another baby right away. That's part of what the cooldown is for. If they are going to run away from BBs, I want to send as few BBs to them a possible.
I suspected this. When the thread about the Awbz shortcut was active, I suggested an idea to address this issue.
Because as you say, mothers who run away from their babies should have the cooldown active.
But what if it's the opposite, baby runners?
Sure, your idea of using the mother picking up her baby as a symbol could help the issue but wouldn't address it completely.
If a baby still wanted to die without getting himself lineage-banned, he could simply start running as soon as he spawns (I never take more than a couple seconds to load up, I'm not affected by this problem so it would be perfectly feasible).
Besides, the mother could be working at the forge or bakery and not have time to pick her baby up immediately, giving him a window to start running.
I think there is a reason as to why using /die resets the cooldown but not running babies.
I think Jason intended for babies dying of natural causes to always count towards the cooldown because ideally it should be considered the mother's fault for her baby's death, not the baby's.
If as a mother your baby dies in real life, you are by definition a bad mother, and that would be why they still count towards the cooldown, it would favorize good mothers over bad mothers who let their children starve.
I'm not saying this is fact, but if it is, then making a baby's death not count towards the cooldown is pretty much out of the question.
If /die was made the superior disconnect method over the shortcut, then the only things left would be people who don't want a lineage ban or people who want to grief the cooldown.
What if we went all the way with the "mother is bad if her baby dies" philosophy and made babies walk much, much slower. Like say a third of normal speed.
This would mean that the only choice people who want to abandon have is the /die command (which, assuming it's made the better choice, wouldn't be a problem at all).
Which in turn means that people staying as babies are guaranteed to be willing to play their current life.
Now I know a third of the normal speed sounds pretty bad, but hear me out on this.
First, you would still be able to carry your baby like normal, but on top of that, babies could also be made to be a carryable object like how big objects like firewood can be carried.
So you could fill your backpack with one baby or put up to four babies in a handcart or still carry one single baby in your own hands.
You might think this is bad for eve runs, but this simply means that you are limited to one baby while looking for a spot.
As eve, once you have your camp setup you can simply do what I assume eves were already doing and put your children in one specific spot while you're busy fetching various stuff and come back regularly to feed all of them at once.
Ideally, this could incentivize the use of nursery in developed towns, since busy women who need to fetch stuff could drop their children there (unless they have a backpack or a handcart for multiple children).
In the case where you have a single baby, you can still simply carry it around if you are busy (at the risk of having another one on the way) which I was already doing anyways because let's be fair, babies are slow enough that asking them to follow you is a huge struggle already.
In short, you would sacrifice the possibility of having multiple children far from town and without proper gear (backpack or handcart) for the fixing of runner babies AND finally getting the possibility of carrying babies around with something other than your own hands.
Thoughts?
Now I know, I did suggest something blasphemous and that is baby carrying tech.
But that was only to balance out the idea I put forward.
If babies couldn't move much on their own, you wouldn't even be able to ask them to follow you if you have to carry something impossible to put in a backpack.
Like wood for the fire as Eve or if you are dragging a cart in a more advanced civilization.
It could be more sensible, too. Maybe not as OP as being able to put four babies in a single cart.
It also kind of makes more sense. Human babies don't learn to walk instantly in real life and even after they do they are fairly slow at it. Asking a child under five to follow a running adult is pretty unrealistic.
The point is that it's not an effective way to do it.
Prove to me that knives are used more to kill griefers than they are being used by griefers.
I'll be waiting.
Decrease minimum curse scores and I'll probably never kill a griefer again tbh, not unless absolutely sure no one is around.
I already get cursed for killing naked people with loaded bows inside town and I consider myself pretty stealthy and social skilled inside this game.
And this is why people who say "weapons were implemented specifically to deal with griefers" are completely wrong.
I've said this already and I'll say it again: knives (or snowballs, or any other killing mechanic) are as much a problem solver as they are a problem themselves.
Knives are used by griefers as much as they're used against them. It doesn't solve much of anything.
At most you can argue that it lineage bans the griefer and removes him from the town but that's only a short term solution.
As Tarr already pointed out, that in fact encourages griefers and only makes them spawn in a different town which they can in turn grief.
You're basically playing the game the griefers want you to play.
This is not how you deal with griefers. This is not how you solve the problem.
Cursing is much more different.
You may argue that my point applies there too, but that is simply not the case. Why? Because it is a power everyone has.
As such, the overwhelming majority who want to play peacefully will crush the minority of griefers who want to just go on a killing spree.
This is how you properly deal with griefers.
Why do people insist SO MUCH on killing the griefers instead of using the right tool to deal with them? Do you feel like a hero or something?
Now, about this topic. The curse system has been discussed to great lengths before already.
The issue that's been opened on github suggests a much more sensible solution: lowering the threshold given the lifetime curses.
Now, of course, this still leaves the problem of people getting unjustly cursed being sent to donkey town as well.
People seem to be hellbent on the fact that this HAS to happen and that there is NO solution for some reason.
I already suggested something before: downgrade the lifetime curse score to something like the real time score itself, but much slower and on a much more general scale.
Like count the lifetime curses but decrease them by say two every months or something like that. That way people who play since a while and have accumulated unjust curses aren't put at risk.
Something like what Dodge suggested could work even better if you do it right: a ratio of playtime/total number of curses.
What's important to understand is that the problem we're trying to solve with this kind of thing is to express how bad someone is in some sort of metric in order to identify the griefers more sensibly.
It's basically trying to measure how bad someone is. A metric for griefing.
Once you have such a thing, the idea is to use it to calculate a threshold per person.
In this way, you will effectively make the curse system "target" the griefers.
People who do nothing wrong and get the occasional curse by a griefer or toxic roleplayer or whatever would have nothing to worry about as ideally their ratio/lifetime score/whatever metric is chosen won't target them.
People who actually are griefers and have any sort of habit of doing it will be "noticed" and "targeted" by this metric and will subsequently have a reduced threshold given how severe the measure is.
This way, you solve the problem of people purposely avoiding the threshold to not spend a single second in donkey town because as they keep doing it, the measure will get stronger and stronger and will eventually make them spend time in DT for as low as a single curse (if they're that bad).
People who do nothing wrong don't spend time in donkey town.
People who do, even while trying to avoid the threshold, get deported.
The implications are great.
If people learned that cursing is the superior tool over killing against griefers this would work.
It would be superior in every way:
It is consistant, no worry of failing your knife strike, the curse system will always do its job the way it was designed to do it.
It is sensible, people have a measure determining how bad they are and the curse system will scale along that. Meaner punishment for meaner people (who grief more often).
Same point as above but applied to the opposite case: you don't have to worry about being unjustly sent to DT if you're a model player as your threshold will not be decreased.
How this would ideally get used is good as well:
See a sketchy guy holding a bow in the middle of the berry field? Curse him (and possibly talk about it to other people, I mean that's obvious, be smart).
If he is a griefer for sure then you can be certain that your token will matter. Let's say his threshold is calculated at 2 or 3. You're already halfway or a third of the way to dealing with him effectively.
If he is not a griefer and just a noob who doesn't know what he's doing, then he has much less to worry about as his threshold is still up there at 7 or 8. Just tell him that it's wrong and dangerous, teach him proper uses of the bow and everyone is happy.
This goes both ways as well, if you get cursed, be smart, don't be an idiot.
If you got cursed, there is very likely a reason. Someone suspects you to be a griefer or considers you a troll/asshole/whatever.
Talk about it. Maybe, just maybe, you're not an all just god who does nothing wrong ever. Maybe you genuinely did something wrong.
Put yourself in question. Be modest. Maybe you can improve the situation. Talk to the other person, ask them about it. "What did I do wrong?". "Sorry, I didn't mean to be an asshole to you.".
If you determine from the discussion that they are in fact a troll, then by all means, curse them back.
If you know you're not a shady player and you have nothing to be guilty about, you can assume your threshold is high and that you have nothing to worry about.
If the other guy is a troll, your curse will definitely count.
I've seen people who will kill you on sight if you curse them. To me it's a clear sign they're idiots and I'm glad I cursed them in the first place.
Get off your high horse for a second buddy, nobody is all just and perfect. No one is god.
And don't get me wrong, I don't curse for any and everything. When I do such a thing I'm 100% certain they were dishonest in some way and there they are, chasing you with a knife. Smart.
And I've done the opposite as well. I've told people ingame a couple times already "go ahead, curse me if you think I'm an asshole". I know I'm honest and well meaning enough that I have nothing to worry about.
And of course, there are other ways in which the curse system needs to be improved and I agree on that.
Twins should both get the curse (careful who you pick as a friend obviously, again, be smart).
Twins shouldn't be able to avoid lineage bans.
I don't think we need to remove the cursing token from twins however.
If the curse system is improved in the ways I described above, then that would be unjust and unnecessary.
People who are honest and well-meaning twins can't curse anymore.
The system already takes into account people abusing the system (remember, the minority against the majority) so why bother with removing twin's curses.
If they're trying to victimize someone innocent, then that person still has a high threshold (which originally was high for this very purpose) and shouldn't worry about it.
Younger people need to be able to use this as a command as someone already pointed out.
I noticed that when you type a command in the chat as a baby, the character limit suddenly vanishes. You can type "/PING" even if you're below a year old.
This indicates that Jason is well aware of this problem. Perhaps the curse is limited in this way intentionally.
I suspect the goal is to prevent babies from cursing their mothers who may have very valid reason not to take care of them.
Even then, people who are past the age of picking up things should still be able to curse griefers.
You can expect their mother or someone else took care of them and that this problem is out of the way at this point.
The fact that you can't curse certain people because they have a long name is ridiculous.
Something like allowing it as a command while giving a notification on the top of your head sounds like a very good suggestion.