List of infinite, zero-input food sources?

Floofy · 2018-11-26 19:45:53

CrazyEddie wrote:

Keks wrote:
Could we instead have a way to dump Bowl of Parlm Kernels https://onetech.info/static/sprites/obj_2146.png and Bowl of Sulfur https://onetech.info/static/sprites/obj_2138.png.
It is currently so easy to grief by filling all avaible bowls with Palm Kernels,since you can only empty them by putting them into the rubber bucket - Which can only be achieved when you get a Knife. But early villages have no way to emptying the bowls and they become useless.
Just like Salt water bowls.
My number one pet peeve in this game is Bowl of Effectively Useless Crap (Most Especially Salt Water). I hate it even more than Two Dozen Milkweed Seeds Scattered Everywhere. Please give us a way to dump out the contents, even at the cost of wasting them.

I agree with this. I'm fine with making this game harder, but this isn't "fun" difficulty. I'd also add more options for stacking similar things, such as foods, seeds, etc.

Tarr · 2018-11-26 19:46:07

Goose eggs are fine. Unlike bananas you will eventually get to the point where goose eggs (along with raw rabbits) end up becoming clutter around the town. So much of the game is based around making food that when you accidentally add god mode food sources there ends up being nothing to do. A town can only have one blacksmith due to iron shortages, you don't need a shepherd, baker, or farmers because why put in the effort when the 30 banana trees around town outproduce you by a mile.

Food is one of the few things in game that should never EVER be close to infinite. Infinite water? You are still work for your food and iron will eventually put an end to your city (not that we last that long.) Infinite soil/compost? You still work to make food for everyone, basically mistakes are just easier to fix. Infinite iron? Still working only now you have to ride your horses out to fetch water eventually. Infinite food? None of the other three things are remotely needed.

Just think how much of the games content is food related and now pretend none of this matters. Basically the game devolves down into one blacksmith, and the rest of the village becoming foragers or builders. The problem with this is that buildings don't really give a bonus to building them due to providing heat when we generally live in deserts/jungles. Is it possible to make buildings instead just move your temperature closer to center instead of just making you hotter?

Also yellow fever is still incredibly weak but it seemingly kills new players since they still do not understand how to counteract the disease. The only time it's actually fatal is

1) You are 5-6 where your mother cannot hold you through the duration or you cannot get to an ice biome (being on the old end of the spectrum is the same)
2) You are wearing too many clothes while out foraging (why are you cutting through a jungle with clothes on anyways)
3) You don't eat while running through the jungle (??? bananas are everywhere this is a silly way to die.)
4) You hug all the mosquitoes.

TL;DR: Bananas are bad because most of the game is food and/or food related.

jinbaili83 · 2018-11-26 20:12:34

Mabye make picked bananas decay and let half of trees spawn initialy with no fruit.
Omlettes ware greate transition food before you got big farm going on desert-swapm edge. Jungle-swamp has to much ready to eat food now.

lionon · 2018-11-26 20:26:43

Tarr wrote:

2) You are wearing too many clothes while out foraging (why are you cutting through a jungle with clothes on anyways)

Because mosquitos happen to be far away from jungle, it means deus ex machina death, if they hide behind a tree in an invisible overlap biome.

Anyway back on topic, giving bananas a short despawn time, like 1 minute would fix two things in one go. You couldn't stockpile bananas, if you want that banana munch you must enter the jungle and at max hand it someone real quick. Second it is more difficult to create mosquito walls.. with bananas, now some more experienced players just drop down large walls of bananas and push the mosquitoes far of village.

Eggs are fine in my experience, gonna get dehydrated sooner or later anyway... yes a tiny village may decide to live on eggs forever but that kind of meta-player-management I don't see that happening. Laying frequency of wild ones may be reduced a bit tough.

PS: Majority of deaths is still starvation tough anyway...

Last edited by lionon (2018-11-26 20:30:18)

Floofy · 2018-11-26 20:52:08

Tarr wrote:

Goose eggs are fine. Unlike bananas you will eventually get to the point where goose eggs (along with raw rabbits) end up becoming clutter around the town. So much of the game is based around making food that when you accidentally add god mode food sources there ends up being nothing to do. A town can only have one blacksmith due to iron shortages, you don't need a shepherd, baker, or farmers because why put in the effort when the 30 banana trees around town outproduce you by a mile.

I kinda miss your point about goose eggs? if you find a good spot with a lot of ponds, they ARE an infinite food source.

lionon · 2018-11-26 21:00:47

The point is, show me a real village where the berry-crazy-players are not going to drain them and turn'em into wells.

Oh and only one griever with an arrow and bow and its over anyway.

Tarr · 2018-11-26 21:20:13

Floofy wrote:

I kinda miss your point about goose eggs? if you find a good spot with a lot of ponds, they ARE an infinite food source.

You still have to put in some sort of effort for eggs while bananas require nearly zero effort what so ever. Yes, with enough ponds eggs are going to support a small village but eggs are going to require actual management. If you aren't balancing flat rock timer resets you'll start wasting early game kindling. I don't mind eggs being infinite due to them historically just becoming a tile waster like dry bean pods though new players really do seem to like eggs so maybe they need fixed?

I've at times ended up just deleting raw rabbits/goose eggs/etc because people don't want to use them up. If anything I think omelets/eggs are a good example of wild food that relieves some of the early game stress in a good way (filling, requires active management, or more resources if lazy) while bananas are a great example of what early game food should not be.

lionon wrote:

Because mosquitos happen to be far away from jungle, it means deus ex machina death, if they hide behind a tree in an invisible overlap biome.

I mean you aren't wrong, there are cases like that where accidentally walking behind a tree is instant death whether from snake/boar/bear/mosquito. I guess I should have been mindful of that sort of niche situation occurring for mosquito deaths though the main point was that mosquito and yellow fever deaths are mostly completely avoidable.

Dodge · 2018-11-26 21:29:01

Tarr wrote:

TL;DR: Bananas are bad because most of the game is food and/or food related.

In this case shouldnt it make sense to make it less food related the bigger a village gets and the more the village as access to big quantities of food?

Tarr · 2018-11-26 21:56:14

Dodge wrote:

Tarr wrote:
TL;DR: Bananas are bad because most of the game is food and/or food related.
In this case shouldnt it make sense to make it less food related the bigger a village gets and the more the village as access to big quantities of food?

That would require a lot of different things added to the game for people to do once food issues are solved. Once you hit the critical mass of food/unlimited food the game turns into you doing aesthetic upgrades to town (buildings, wooden fence pens, rose bushes, signs) or you can leave town to start a sister city which slowly cycles into you returning to the aesthetic upgrades again.

That's probably the only real issue with Jason adding so many food related updates. If at any point he upsets the food balance 3/4th of the game just becomes dead content (basically mass banana trees just make the other food options feel like pork tacos.)

I just don't think there's enough nonfood related jobs in game for people in villages/cities to move away from the constant farming/composting cycle.

Floofy · 2018-11-26 21:58:19

Tarr wrote:

Floofy wrote:
I kinda miss your point about goose eggs? if you find a good spot with a lot of ponds, they ARE an infinite food source.
You still have to put in some sort of effort for eggs while bananas require nearly zero effort what so ever. Yes, with enough ponds eggs are going to support a small village but eggs are going to require actual management. If you aren't balancing flat rock timer resets you'll start wasting early game kindling. I don't mind eggs being infinite due to them historically just becoming a tile waster like dry bean pods though new players really do seem to like eggs so maybe they need fixed?
I've at times ended up just deleting raw rabbits/goose eggs/etc because people don't want to use them up. If anything I think omelets/eggs are a good example of wild food that relieves some of the early game stress in a good way (filling, requires active management, or more resources if lazy) while bananas are a great example of what early game food should not be.
lionon wrote:
Because mosquitos happen to be far away from jungle, it means deus ex machina death, if they hide behind a tree in an invisible overlap biome.
I mean you aren't wrong, there are cases like that where accidentally walking behind a tree is instant death whether from snake/boar/bear/mosquito. I guess I should have been mindful of that sort of niche situation occurring for mosquito deaths though the main point was that mosquito and yellow fever deaths are mostly completely avoidable.

This is arguable, but imo dodging the mosquitoes is a bigger effort than putting an egg on a rock and picking it up with a plate.
Either ways, in both cases, its still infinite ressources. The food sources requiring some efforts doesn't make it less infinite. If your whole town is relying on eggs, the timer shouldn't be an issue. And if you do occasionnaly need kindling, i'd still call that infinite since the trees will easily produce enough wood for this simple task.

Lily · 2018-11-26 22:22:40

I don't think foods should be balanced off the occasional extreme situation caused by the map being effective random. All the wild food becomes unbalanced if you get a huge lucky clump of them all together.

jasonrohrer · 2018-11-26 22:32:07

Hotfix for infinite bananas, slowing down wild egg production, and shrinking the Eve spawn spiral by a factor of 2x (Eves are closer together, meaning more chance of village interaction).

Anshin · 2018-11-26 23:01:00

jasonrohrer wrote:

Shrank next Eve jump to 250, down from 500. Smaller Eve spiral, more likely to be interaction between villages.

https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/ … 838e86d970

Nice!

jasonrohrer wrote:

Fixed food leak. Banana tree no longer regrows bananas. It is now a bootstrapping food source only (like burdock). Eggs respawn at goose pond 2x slower.

https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLifeD … f3b5d606e3

It would be nice if everything could be planted. Onions are an obvious food source and cooking ingredient, but even burdock should be renewable. Maybe burdock could come with a negative? Annoying burrs that damage clothing? And slow banana plantations that can only be planted in the jungle climate. Maybe it's time to revisit the idea of different soil types/fertilizers and temperatures for various plants. I think you were on to something good with the rose seeds needing to be chilled first.

Beyond that I really like how the wild duck eggs work because they are a clever management trick. They only last as long as you don't drain the pond, and someone will always "ruin" the pond and break the chain... we need more water sources... Oh an ocean biome would be a dream come true!

CrazyEddie · 2018-11-26 23:01:13

It seems the intention behind Eve spawn placement is:

jasonrohrer wrote:

Eve is supposed to feel like a fresh start, with maybe a small chance of stumbling into the ruins of a past civilization, or eventually bumping up against a living, neighboring civilization. [..] This guarantees that Eve is always in an untouched area, but also that she is never too far from some recent civilizations, so trade can happen.

(from http://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1310 )

With the spiral, an Eve has an older settlement towards the spiral center (possibly still going, possibly dead at a late stage, but most probably dead at an early stage), two neighboring settlements of about the same age ahead and behind on the spiral, and (if enough time has passed) one much newer settlement away from the spiral center. There's two other older settlements and two other younger settlements that are almost as close as those, in the "diagonal" directions relative to the spiral center. All other settlements are further away than these eight by some multiple of the inter-settlement distance.

I have two questions:

a) How far apart are the settlements in practical terms (i.e. how many minutes walk)?

b) How did you determine that they were too far apart and needed to be closer?

CrazyEddie · 2018-11-26 23:07:33

Anshin wrote:

slow banana plantations that can only be planted in the jungle climate

Some particularly long and difficult method for clearing the jungle, planting farmable banana trees, and wiping out mosquitos would be an awesome addition to the game. An epic quest with an epic payout.

Lily · 2018-11-27 00:52:01

Sounds like jungles are not worth it anymore. By the time you have any sort of settlement ready, the bananas will be gone forever.

Baker · 2018-11-27 00:53:58

I wouldn't say Goose eggs are Zero-Input. You still need plates, fire, and Flatrock. You don't just eat em raw. Eventually, towns build wells over the ponds and move on to other foods.

Cactus Fruits are infinite and zero input but you only get one per plus they can only be harvested in a 5 min window.

Bananas, on the other hand, have multiple per harvest and can be eaten instantly. The Mosquitoes don't really balance them out for various reasons, Obviously, you can make a blanket of objects, You can also be lucky to have trees on the jungle edge with few mosquitoes around.

No need to invest in farms, That means no worries about soil or water.

lionon · 2018-11-27 05:55:58

CrazyEddie wrote:

I have two questions:
a) How far apart are the settlements in practical terms (i.e. how many minutes walk)?
b) How did you determine that they were too far apart and needed to be closer?

See my recent newbie post trying to get another family tree to a city with a bell tower.

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4619

I tried several times, basically none of my spawns had the town reachable in a lifetime even with horse... so even with horse it would have taken about 2-3 generations to get there and that requires the next player taking over that traveling mission and being capable to do that and this with a horse. Walking there would have taken about 5 generations just watching just character walk, eat stuff on the go and avoid animals... also not a thrilling gameplay.

lionon · 2018-11-27 05:57:53

Make bananas not regrow at all is overdoing balance way it in the other direction. Now jungles are likely nothing but a huge annoyance. How about making that balance pendulum swing slower to an optimum?

Psykout · 2018-11-27 07:37:09

Lily wrote:

Sounds like jungles are not worth it anymore. By the time you have any sort of settlement ready, the bananas will be gone forever.

Pretty sure thats what we were campaigning for... They should have never been a sustainable resource, they should be there to buy you time to get a sustainable settlement, which in your statement is true. A single banana tree could let an Eve camp startup in an optimal area that was a "fixer upper" that needed little work to get going, problem was the trees were the main fuel instead of the tinder, this change should hopefully bring that back in line.

Twisted · 2018-11-27 09:22:44

jasonrohrer wrote:

Hotfix for infinite bananas, slowing down wild egg production, and shrinking the Eve spawn spiral by a factor of 2x (Eves are closer together, meaning more chance of village interaction).

First of all, I want to say that I have massive respect for Jason, and that I love this game.

But I don't think making bananas not respawn is a good change. Giving them a super long respawn timer, I can get behind with that, but making them not respawn at all is both too much and not enough at the same time.

Banana trees are still super common, which means that the first few generations can still live off of nothing but bananas. Once all the initial bananas are gone though, that village will never see them again, which feels kinda bad. I think a better change would have been to make them 1/4 as common, and make their respawn timer ~4 hours. That way every few generations you'd have a rich banana harvest and that would be a cool special moment, but they would be rare enough so you couldn't rely on them - they would be a decent starter food, and also a special treat every few generations.

lionon · 2018-11-27 09:29:27

If banana trees are not the better wild berry bushes anymore, at least give us a way to get rid of mosquitoes... right now the former is a temporary boost but the later a permanent annoyance/danger. Either (slower) respawning bananas or permanent mosquito removal as well. One without the other cannot be the balanced approach.

Lily · 2018-11-27 10:10:04

Psykout wrote:

Pretty sure thats what we were campaigning for... They should have never been a sustainable resource, they should be there to buy you time to get a sustainable settlement, which in your statement is true. A single banana tree could let an Eve camp startup in an optimal area that was a "fixer upper" that needed little work to get going, problem was the trees were the main fuel instead of the tinder, this change should hopefully bring that back in line.

There is actual useful biomes that gives food to buy you time, like the berry bush. I can build near a forest and have berries for a short time before they run out, and eventually they come back, plus soil and milkweed grows there, plus all the branches and skewers.

A jungle is mostly trash. Why would you bother building there, and having to deal with permanent yellow fever for a few early bananas? The only resources there are super late game stuff, that you don't really need much of anyway. What happened to high risk high reward? That is gone now. Honestly jungle would be a better area if it had no mosquitoes and no bananas, at least then you could have warm tiles without the hassle.

Twisted · 2018-11-27 10:19:23

Lily wrote:

A jungle is mostly trash. Why would you bother building there, and having to deal with permanent yellow fever for a few early bananas? The only resources there are super late game stuff, that you don't really need much of anyway. What happened to high risk high reward? That is gone now. Honestly jungle would be a better area if it had no mosquitoes and no bananas, at least then you could have warm tiles without the hassle.

The Jungle is still by far the best biome in the game by a large margin IMO, even after the banana nerf. The perfect temperature is so good, you need only 3 food per minute to survive in a Jungle, compared to 20 food per minute in the Grasslands. One berry bush can sustain you for 12 minutes in a jungle, compared to two minutes in other biomes. If you eat better foods the difference is even bigger.

The mosquitoes are a tiny downside, and they're almost irrelevant once you know how to avoid them.

Psykout · 2018-11-27 10:55:11

Lily wrote:

A jungle is mostly trash. Why would you bother building there, and having to deal with permanent yellow fever for a few early bananas? The only resources there are super late game stuff, that you don't really need much of anyway. What happened to high risk high reward? That is gone now. Honestly jungle would be a better area if it had no mosquitoes and no bananas, at least then you could have warm tiles without the hassle.

Hmm true I don't think I would ever look at a field of wild onions and burdock the way I look at a group of banana trees, the trees were a league above that and I am not sure if that was their intention. It's a brand new biome and thats hard to do without breaking stuff. Also as you said, rubber doesn't too much until you are pretty deep into the available tech, so the rewards of the jungle don't seem to fit the risk. I would still argue that although it was theorized to be high risk high reward biome, the risk was never that high nor should have it been. Not with using mosquitos, I don't think there is a way to increase the risk via skeeters without making them an ungodly satanic keyboard breaking frustrations. So with such a high reward and not a good way to counter that with risk, something had to be done.

This might seem to stink now, but I think it gives more room for future additions to the biome. It does have some really good things going for it, just not quite enough to make settling there wise considering countering the risk is harder for new people.

- The most ideal temperature out of all biomes
- Readily available scavenged food source
- Plenty of non essential trees for wood supply
- Non lethal (if managed or intervened) animals

Outside of those for the game we got

- A new biome!
-Rubber! Not much to do with it yet, but later on I think will be sought after
-Sickness! An effect on the player that has a duration that wears off that ALSO can "cured" with no tech whatsoever only food

Even with them not respawning, are we denying that having a couple bananas on you allow you to stay out and about for so much longer? When looking for an eve camp you can fill up your hunger and bring some high value snacks to give you plenty of time to look around freely. They are still a great biome to skirt for warmth and food when traveling and searching for resources.
The first iteration was too much and didn't fit the state of the game right now. As Tarr has said, so much of the game is food gathering and production, that if you remove that you lessen too much of the game. Is the nerf possibly too much of a knee jerk response, time will tell, but I like it because it fits better in the here and now, and has the possibility of additions and changes to be a great biome.

One Hour One Life Forums

#26 2018-11-26 19:45:53

Re: List of infinite, zero-input food sources?

#27 2018-11-26 19:46:07

Re: List of infinite, zero-input food sources?

#28 2018-11-26 20:12:34

Re: List of infinite, zero-input food sources?

#29 2018-11-26 20:26:43

Re: List of infinite, zero-input food sources?

#30 2018-11-26 20:52:08

Re: List of infinite, zero-input food sources?

#31 2018-11-26 21:00:47

Re: List of infinite, zero-input food sources?

#32 2018-11-26 21:20:13

Re: List of infinite, zero-input food sources?

#33 2018-11-26 21:29:01

Re: List of infinite, zero-input food sources?

#34 2018-11-26 21:56:14

Re: List of infinite, zero-input food sources?

#35 2018-11-26 21:58:19

Re: List of infinite, zero-input food sources?

#36 2018-11-26 22:22:40

Re: List of infinite, zero-input food sources?

#37 2018-11-26 22:32:07

Re: List of infinite, zero-input food sources?

#38 2018-11-26 23:01:00

Re: List of infinite, zero-input food sources?

#39 2018-11-26 23:01:13

Re: List of infinite, zero-input food sources?

#40 2018-11-26 23:07:33

Re: List of infinite, zero-input food sources?

#41 2018-11-27 00:52:01

Re: List of infinite, zero-input food sources?

#42 2018-11-27 00:53:58

Re: List of infinite, zero-input food sources?

#43 2018-11-27 05:55:58

Re: List of infinite, zero-input food sources?

#44 2018-11-27 05:57:53

Re: List of infinite, zero-input food sources?

#45 2018-11-27 07:37:09

Re: List of infinite, zero-input food sources?

#46 2018-11-27 09:22:44

Re: List of infinite, zero-input food sources?

#47 2018-11-27 09:29:27

Re: List of infinite, zero-input food sources?

#48 2018-11-27 10:10:04

Re: List of infinite, zero-input food sources?

#49 2018-11-27 10:19:23

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#50 2018-11-27 10:55:11

Re: List of infinite, zero-input food sources?

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