Two out of eight kids were leavers, unplayable trend

Cecil · 2019-01-13 19:05:37

Yeah, I suppose you're right that they aren't intentionally griefing. They just don't care if they mess things up for others.

I'm hot in from another life where the first three babies also used the exploit to instant kill themselves. I didn't get actual useful babies before a pair of twins well into my adulthood, and it took ages to set up the camp because of the lack of people. Twins died, sadly, but fortunately the final kid knew what she was doing. The penultimate one was a runner that tried to come back for food last second when she'd scouted the camp, but at that point I was too jaded to want to feed her.

http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=2848719

Anyway, it just feels like sabotage no matter how you look at it.

Last edited by Cecil (2019-01-13 19:08:36)

thundersen · 2019-01-13 19:10:32

Booklat1 wrote:

thats why its an exploit, it wasn't meant by Jason. and a few lives spawning exploiters is hardly enough evidence to say its making the game unplayable.
Its an issue, i agree, but you don't change it by nerfing /die.

I've opened an issue on awbz's GitHub repo suggesting to disable Ctrl+Del for babies.

Cecil · 2019-01-13 19:44:11

Okay, that seems like a reasonable way to solve this without involving Jason.

Last edited by Cecil (2019-01-13 19:44:19)

CrazyEddie · 2019-01-13 20:11:05

That's a good idea, thundersen.

MultiLife:

The reason it exists is because the game can't recognize when it happens or stop it from happening. Don't ask me how it works, others know what it truly does (forced starvation or some other forced total disconnection). In a nutshell the game can't recognize this as a forced action from a player so it can't prevent it from happening.

Here's how it works: if the server receives a malformed message from the client, the server decides the client is broken and kills the player. So Awbz' client sends a malformed message on purpose to get the server to kill the player. Jason may at some point decide the right thing for the server to do is to drop the connection rather than kill the player, and if (when) he does that the insta-die 'feature' will stop working.

Last edited by CrazyEddie (2019-01-13 20:16:27)

Luniatji · 2019-01-13 20:33:58

Cecil wrote:

Okay, that seems like a reasonable way to solve this without involving Jason.

For you, yes; for them, no.

You should not forgot that people had asked AWBZ to implement it (again.). It was there, but was removed when the /die command came and then people asked him to bring it back. Meaning that the /die command isn't the best way to solve it. People kept asking for an easier way to die and AWBZ had given them that. If he kept it out again, people will try other ways to use the same thing, or start griefing.

And really, people, what is the biggest problem here? You want them to stay, they won't stay so they leave. You can go say "Oh but three of my eight kids use this!" but you don't know WHY they use it. They use it because Jason didn't give us the option to easy say "I will be preferably born there and with that gender" so if they spawn with another gender/place they will want to leave. It is a bigger problem for them than for you. Because they need to use an exploit to play the game ..

I'm not much using it, but yes, I'm using it sometimes. Just like people use /die sometimes; but /die has backslash (you can't spawn back into the same family, but maybe you do it because you are a girl and there are twenty other girls? After using that you leave that family behind and can't come back, yay, that's happy!).

And like I say before, /die has more things. You HAVE to be 0 and in your MOMS arms. Dropped by a nursery? Can't use it. Don't picked up? Can't use it. Loading slow and 1 years? Can't use it.

The biggest problem is in my opinion that people HAVE to use an exploit than the fact that the exploit EXIST in the first place .. it wouldn't exist if people could choice were to be born. It wouldn't exist if people could go easier going out a line than "Being 0, in your mom's arms, an yay you can't come back here for three hours, have fun!"

Cecil · 2019-01-13 20:46:41

I don't think you understand the difference between the exploit and the /die command. Someone explained it pretty well on the previous page of this thread.

This exploit together with the people who advocate it like it isn't breaking the game is seriously rubbing me the wrong way. I have half a mind to murder any player who seems to be using the zoom out mod out of spite now. If only it wasn't so counter-productive, I'd be all for it. It seems to be the only way to get it through the thick skulls of certain people. It's one thing when they cheat and it only affects them, but this is affecting everyone.

The more I think about it right now, the more I find myself wanting to take a zero tolerance on anyone I find with the mod. Sure, it'd ruin civs to kill the exploiters off, but it's a meta-game circle where their style messes with everyone else anyway, so one might as well return the favour to them and make the mod undesirable.

Last edited by Cecil (2019-01-13 21:05:07)

Tarr · 2019-01-13 21:18:05

Luniatji wrote:

And like I say before, /die has more things. You HAVE to be 0 and in your MOMS arms. Dropped by a nursery? Can't use it. Don't picked up? Can't use it. Loading slow and 1 years? Can't use it.

That's probably the biggest thing. You can't just /die in a village you want to be in if you're the wrong gender. I will 100% of the time kill myself if I'm born male in a place I want to be since there is almost zero reason to be male in the first place. If mom is force holding you it's either sit around and waste both our time or just press the two button kill command and save us a minute.

It's also great for cycling Eve spawns since you can quickly check if your spawn is naturally somewhere great or prevents you from having to play snake hopscotch.

Honestly I'm more annoyed at the fact you can still just get boyy'ed to death as an Eve. I had a run instantly die a few days back because I rolled nine boys in a row which is just ridiculous. Keep warm and keep your yum up? Great for spawning kids just not so much for rolling babies of the right gender.

No matter what happens people are always going to kill themselves out of your camps whether you want them to or not.

Luniatji · 2019-01-13 21:46:22

Cecil wrote:

I don't think you understand the difference between the exploit and the /die command.

I do understand the difference between those two things. I know that I with the exploit can:
- Kill myself right away if my mom won't pick me up, instead of running around trying to die fast
- Kill myself when my internet/computer is too slow to load so when I come into the game, I'm already one and can't just use /die
- Kill myself when- because of that laggy internet/pc- my mom already runned further and I'm all alone/fed by another family member and just can't /die because that person isn't my mother
- Kill myself quickly as Eve, if I see that I spawn without water in the aree for at least fourhundred blocks
- Kill myself quickly as Eve, instead of trying to get eaten by a bear, wolf, mosquito, boar or snake if I don't want to be an Eve
- Kill myself if I'm a boy with an almost-old Eve who don't have any living girls, in the hope I can give her that girl
- Kill myself right away if I see that there are ten fertile woman and twelve girls alive and I'm a girl (I'm not even kidding, it happened before.)
- Don't get a lineage ban if I do that, because if I want a lineage ban I would do /die

I know it's unfair to other people, but on the other hand, it's also unfair that all those things CANNOT do without this exploit. It's my opinion that we ALL should have the option to choose when we die and why. So that this "exploit" wouldn't exist. It wouldn't need to exist. But in the state of the game, it now NEEDS to exist. Because the very limited way where /die works. Because of the people running around dying on everything they can because they wouldn't live there by choice, or start griefing. Do you understand that?

Léonard · 2019-01-13 22:39:26

Cecil wrote:

I have half a mind to murder any player who seems to be using the zoom out mod out of spite now.

That sounds very smart and reasonable...
Don't let the anger get to you.

For me the whole issue is moot anyways.
As some may have already said, you cannot force people to play when they don't want to.
But let's go even more broad so that people understand this side of the argument.
You cannot force people to run the game if they don't want to, period. That's why there's actually a quit button that does work while playing.
The only reason I would use the new awbz shortcut over that is because rather than just disconnecting, the current % bind completely exits the game.
A game should always have the option to quit (hell pretty much any process on a computer should) and this game has one.
It's just, not without quitting the game entirely hence why the shortcut was asked for.

The only issue I see here (which is very easily fixable) is that currently some people have the possibility to leave without clearing the baby cooldown for their mother.
I'm not sure what happens when you use the % bind, do you just disappear?
And does the % bind properly clear the baby cooldown? If not, it should, and if it does, the awbz shortcut should use the same method of signaling a disconnection.
It's as simple as that.

To be honest, I don't even understand why there is a baby cooldown in the first place.
Jasons says that he wants people to compete for babies. Doesn't the cooldown prevent a proper distribution?
To be more clear, shouldn't babies be distributed properly whether or not there is a cooldown?
If you're going to argue that it's to prevent a sudden influx of babies on a single mother, first off the baby distribution should prevent it from going overboard, second how is it different from getting triplets/quadruplets anyways.
On top of that if a mother gets more babies than she can handle (which likely only happened if she purposefully got a big yum bonus and some good temperature) then the extra babies would just die off anyways. Natural selection.
The best compromise I think would be to make the cooldown a very lax cap, like say, no more than 5 babies in under 5 minutes.
I think something like that might work really well.

MultiLife · 2019-01-14 06:57:11

Léonard wrote:

Cecil wrote:
I have half a mind to murder any player who seems to be using the zoom out mod out of spite now.
That sounds very smart and reasonable...
Don't let the anger get to you.
For me the whole issue is moot anyways.
As some may have already said, you cannot force people to play when they don't want to.
But let's go even more broad so that people understand this side of the argument.
You cannot force people to run the game if they don't want to, period. That's why there's actually a quit button that does work while playing.
The only reason I would use the new awbz shortcut over that is because rather than just disconnecting, the current % bind completely exits the game.
A game should always have the option to quit (hell pretty much any process on a computer should) and this game has one.
It's just, not without quitting the game entirely hence why the shortcut was asked for.
The only issue I see here (which is very easily fixable) is that currently some people have the possibility to leave without clearing the baby cooldown for their mother.
I'm not sure what happens when you use the % bind, do you just disappear?
And does the % bind properly clear the baby cooldown? If not, it should, and if it does, the awbz shortcut should use the same method of signaling a disconnection.
It's as simple as that.

I think quit button turns you to bones, but I never used it. So basically AWBZ's mod's ctrl delete is quit button shortcut in that sense.
Anyways, this. No matter what, Jason and AWBZ can't prevent people from leaving the game as the game can always be ended in a way or another. And that's what people will use. If you take away a shortcut to that, they'll do it the slow way, and chances are they land on you more often because your cooldown probably has ended as they slowly reroll their lives. Taking away a shortcut will probably make it worse as people start relying on quit button.

Léonard wrote:

To be honest, I don't even understand why there is a baby cooldown in the first place.
Jasons says that he wants people to compete for babies. Doesn't the cooldown prevent a proper distribution?
To be more clear, shouldn't babies be distributed properly whether or not there is a cooldown?
If you're going to argue that it's to prevent a sudden influx of babies on a single mother, first off the baby distribution should prevent it from going overboard, second how is it different from getting triplets/quadruplets anyways.
On top of that if a mother gets more babies than she can handle (which likely only happened if she purposefully got a big yum bonus and some good temperature) then the extra babies would just die off anyways. Natural selection.
The best compromise I think would be to make the cooldown a very lax cap, like say, no more than 5 babies in under 5 minutes.
I think something like that might work really well.

Yeah I think it's to give the mom a chance to raise a kid without constantly spawning more. I think the cooldown is from 0-5mins with RNG lottery "goodness"... with max cooldown rolls a woman would get 6 kids in her life. Maybe the 5min maximum is too much? To me it isn't, but some want more chances at a good child..

Cecil wrote:

I have half a mind to murder any player who seems to be using the zoom out mod out of spite now. If only it wasn't so counter-productive, I'd be all for it. It seems to be the only way to get it through the thick skulls of certain people. It's one thing when they cheat and it only affects them, but this is affecting everyone.
The more I think about it right now, the more I find myself wanting to take a zero tolerance on anyone I find with the mod. Sure, it'd ruin civs to kill the exploiters off, but it's a meta-game circle where their style messes with everyone else anyway, so one might as well return the favour to them and make the mod undesirable.

Your pitiful efforts in making a mod less attractive to use wouldn't make a dent. And if people start fighting against AWBZ's mod, I'm out. Lose yet another expert that way.
Would be funny to make shortcut expressions to you as your last babygirl as you drive in the knife.

I have AWBZ's mod, I play all lives I get, and I never use ctrl delete suicide, or quit mid-game.
Just yesterday I used the zoom to track a tool thief griefer and killed her - but sure, go ahead and focus on killing me will you?

Last edited by MultiLife (2019-01-14 07:21:44)

JonySky · 2019-01-14 12:01:06

This game has taught me one thing ... you never know who will continue your lineage...

I realize a simple technique when I am EVE, I only have 1 or 2 daughters and 1 son (the others I reject them unless I have to replace some child)

statistically I have not seen any difference between this technique or having 20 children ...

is more, when I have only 2 girls I have more success than having 20

Maybe it's just luck, or maybe it's that people become more responsible when they see few children ... I do not know

Yesterday I had a very disastrous start, I was taking care of only 2 girls, the rest of the children I rejected them and at the age of 35 I stepped on a snake ... at that moment I had seen some of my daughters die for a snake and my other daughter It was left alone and I think it was new ....

All this was already very late (local time at 01:00 in the morning), bad time to keep a lineage ... apparently my lineage lasted 22 generations ... has spent all night running
http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=2852312

I believe that luck affects more in the lineage than having many children

Last edited by JonySky (2019-01-14 12:02:25)

Tarr · 2019-01-14 12:55:17

JonySky wrote:

I believe that luck affects more in the lineage than having many children

Pretty much this. While you can be a skillful and try to edge your bets as much as you want but you cannot beat out luck in the long run. Whenever I do an Eve run I always ALWAYS kill myself at 40 to enable my children to have the best shot and none of that matters if my kids or future children are new/bad. I had a lineage the other day where by the end of Gen 3 we had cracked two iron veins and was starting the newcomen pump pieces along with the newcomen machine parts which I thought meant we were on the road to success. Farm was in a good spot, lots of water to keep the crops going, seemed overall like this was the sort of place that would grow into a full fledged town.

Nope. Either the women had few babies (one boy, multiple boys) or died young because new/bad. You are nearly 100% reliant on your kids having enough skill level to put food into their mouths and if not your lineage fails even in the best of spots.

My biggest gripe right now (besides the getting all boys thing) is why are we playing with pre-steam numbers over multiple servers on our off peak hours? I understand wanting to keep servers alive in the daytime when we have tons of players but in the early hours there's no reason for us to spread the player base so thinly. At the time of writing this we have server 4 with a whooping 14 players on it. Wouldn't it be better to just divert them and bolster the other servers up? Any time you play in these early hours the game is essentially one city per server with anyone who gets lineage banned from it as one of the eight Eves running around.

I thought when steam launched we would have nice robust servers filled (like the daytime) where you could have multiple cities per server and just bounce between but instead of you play at any of these early hours you have to hop servers to get into towns should you get lineage banned.

CrazyEddie · 2019-01-14 14:11:05

Tarr wrote:

My biggest gripe right now (besides the getting all boys thing) is why are we playing with pre-steam numbers over multiple servers on our off peak hours?

Because the alternative is that whoever ends up getting randomized onto server4 or server3 will be doomed with zero chance at keeping their lineage alive when the reflector stops sending new connections there. I (and others) suggested the change; Jason was unsure, but decided to do it anyway. Maybe he'll change his mind and switch it back, or come up with a different idea.

Here's the thread where thundersen, betame, Gederian, and I were theorycrafting about population fluxes. Here's the post in that thread where Jason wandered in and started theorycrafting with us.

Start a new topic and give him feedback.

wondible · 2019-01-14 14:29:52

JonySky wrote:

I believe that luck affects more in the lineage than having many children

From looking at my own families, pretty much every lineage has multiple choke points where they only survive through a single mother. Which means that every lineage is one boar, mosquito, or food over-extension from extinction at several points in it's history.

MultiLife · 2019-01-14 14:48:03

wondible wrote:

JonySky wrote:
I believe that luck affects more in the lineage than having many children
From looking at my own families, pretty much every lineage has multiple choke points where they only survive through a single mother. Which means that every lineage is one boar, mosquito, or food over-extension from extinction at several points in it's history.

For sure, which is why I think it's high time for Cecil to swallow that fact instead of witch hunting and holding mod players responsible for all his grief...

I guess we humans are prone to "finding the scapegoat" or a pattern in things that are just luck based.

Also if your staying kids keep getting killed by wildlife, you're not hunting enough or your settlements weren't as good as they should've been. Or your kids were newbies. It's not so black and white that "if mod players stopped ctrl deleting themselves I'd succeed!!"

thundersen · 2019-01-14 15:04:47

MultiLife wrote:

wondible wrote:
I believe that luck affects more in the lineage than having many children
[...]
I guess we humans are prone to "finding the scapegoat" or a pattern in things that are just luck based.
[...]

I couldn't agree more. Lineage continuity is a much too complex phenomenon for a silver bullet solution. There are so many factors that we perceive the outcome as luck.

Luniatji · 2019-01-14 15:13:03

JonySky wrote:

Yesterday I had a very disastrous start, I was taking care of only 2 girls, the rest of the children I rejected them and at the age of 35 I stepped on a snake ... at that moment I had seen some of my daughters die for a snake and my other daughter It was left alone and I think it was new ....
All this was already very late (local time at 01:00 in the morning), bad time to keep a lineage ... apparently my lineage lasted 22 generations ... has spent all night running
http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=2852312

Your daughter was new yep. I was your granddaughter Daisy and one of the first things she showed me was: "This are your uncles and this were your sisters", the whole area was literally littered with bodies, bodies, bodies. Mom almost starved because all the bushes were bare, but I showed her a cacti and she could raise me till toddlerhood. My first thing then was to get a berry farm going, to not starve myself or my kids later on.. Mom died when I was eight, so I was alone till my first baby's game, two boys who I couldn't keep because no food. My first girl game when the berries should be starting to grow and I wasn't sure if I could keep her, but tried anyways and it luckily could.

The berries grown I started a far bigger berry farm (thirty bushes, twenty of them ready before I died), get more babies who could live. Daughter got also more babies, she was more outside the camp getting milkweed and stuff before she was fertile. After that I made a kiln into the dessert and was sixty so died. Sadly I forgot to name her till she was too big, so all her kids dont get surnames.. and the twenty gens after that also didn't surnames, oops.

WomanWizard · 2019-01-14 15:34:04

MultiLife wrote:

For sure, which is why I think it's high time for Cecil to swallow that fact instead of witch hunting and holding mod players responsible for all his grief...
I guess we humans are prone to "finding the scapegoat" or a pattern in things that are just luck based.
Also if your staying kids keep getting killed by wildlife, you're not hunting enough or your settlements weren't as good as they should've been. Or your kids were newbies. It's not so black and white that "if mod players stopped ctrl deleting themselves I'd succeed!!"

I get that you want to keep using the mod, and I have nothing against that, but keep in mind that this particular mod function is undoing a fix that was officially implemented in game to prevent the exact problem that we are having right now.

There is one hundred percent a change in how many babies are quitting on their mothers since this feature was added, because they are not lineage banning themselves and being born to the same mother multiple times, ruining her birth cooldown. In the past week I've noticed that an average of two of my children will make it to adulthood now, no matter what town I'm born into. And this is with me taking every advantage I can with the fertility mechanic. I'm birthing eight to twelve kids a life in reasonable towns with good food, moderate clothing, etc. and I get maybe three who choose to stay if I'm lucky, and I'm luckier still if they make it to adulthood. Imagine if I was a newer player and didn't know how to use yum properly. There's a good chance I'd end up with no living children, game after game. Is that the kind of experience you want people spawning into when they first get the game?

When players have the option to quite in a split second, they aren't taking the time that's actually needed to assess the situation they are born into, causing more deaths to good and bad mothers alike. And as long as the mod is undoing official game fixes that make the experience worse for unmodded players, it increases the likelyhood that some kind of crackdown on mods is going to have to take place, ruining the experience for people who are using the mods without taking advantage of that exploit.

MultiLife · 2019-01-14 15:54:48

WomanWizard wrote:

I get that you want to keep using the mod, and I have nothing against that, but keep in mind that this particular mod function is undoing a fix that was officially implemented in game to prevent the exact problem that we are having right now.
There is one hundred percent a change in how many babies are quitting on their mothers since this feature was added, because they are not lineage banning themselves and being born to the same mother multiple times, ruining her birth cooldown. In the past week I've noticed that an average of two of my children will make it to adulthood now, no matter what town I'm born into. And this is with me taking every advantage I can with the fertility mechanic. I'm birthing eight to twelve kids a life in reasonable towns with good food, moderate clothing, etc. and I get maybe three who choose to stay if I'm lucky, and I'm luckier still if they make it to adulthood. Imagine if I was a newer player and didn't know how to use yum properly. There's a good chance I'd end up with no living children, game after game. Is that the kind of experience you want people spawning into when they first get the game?
When players have the option to quite in a split second, they aren't taking the time that's actually needed to assess the situation they are born into, causing more deaths to good and bad mothers alike. And as long as the mod is undoing official game fixes that make the experience worse for unmodded players, it increases the likelyhood that some kind of crackdown on mods is going to have to take place, ruining the experience for people who are using the mods without taking advantage of that exploit.

Players can force a quit with or without a mod anyways, can they not? Just because there is a shortcut doesn't make a mod the bad guy. Sadly /die has crippling design issues which makes ctrl delete the better choice for many. It's faster, and it shouldn't be that way. /die should be faster but it's not.
Anyways, I'm not ctrl deleters' spokesperson, so I'm not gonna defend them. I am however AWBZ mod user so I won't sit and listen to Cecil's threats.

Oh and I hate that Jason added yum to baby distribution. Never wanted that.

Also no matter how long a baby assesses a situation, they won't stay. A ctrl deleter is on a mission to get back where they were, so split second or ten seconds won't matter in them thinking about it. They are browsing through, they don't care about moms on cooldowns. As Tarr said in another thread, them slapping cooldowns around is actually beneficial for them - which is honestly a game design issue.

Last edited by MultiLife (2019-01-14 17:01:56)

Glassius · 2019-01-14 16:32:33

I see a constant argument between powerplayers using exploits and roleplayers (including Jason) trying to fit the met situation.

You cannot satisfy all. Removing suicide will just make runners common, as it was in past.

I think, the proper solution for it would be a new system of tokens. Playing according to roleplayers will: use random spawn mechanics, survive to old age, get blessed, get properly buried would increase number of tokens, while death reroll and curses would decrease it. Earned tokens would be spent on some options, like
- choose lineage
- choose locaction (list of homemarkers? Last graves?)
- choose sex
- ability to speak as toddler
- yellow bubble text (opposite to black bubble of cursed people), to put there prophets and rulers

With such a reward exploits can be fixed without hurting powerplayers too much.

Luniatji · 2019-01-14 16:36:13

WomanWizard wrote:

I get that you want to keep using the mod, and I have nothing against that, but keep in mind that this particular mod function is undoing a fix that was officially implemented in game to prevent the exact problem that we are having right now.

That's the real problem, I said before. Not the fact that this shortcut exist, but the reason WHY it exist.. the /die isn't working optimal and it punishes people. A /die with an option to then choose "I don't want this lineage" would be better, because then 1. the mom don't get birth cooldown and 2. a person using /die isn't punished by getting out of a lineage (a reason I for one use it). A /die who you can use WITHOUT BEING IN YOUR MOMS ARMS UNDER ZERO is an option, because then this shortcut wasn't needed. But /die works on very, very specific ways and thats why this shortcut is there in the first place. Because people had asked for it, because /die didn’t work.

MultiLife wrote:

A ctrl deleter is on a mission to get back where they were, so split second or ten seconds won't matter in them thinking about it. They are browsing through, they don't care about moms on cooldowns. As Tarr said, them slapping cooldowns around is actually beneficial for them - which is honestly a game design issue.

I don't WANT players to be on a birth cooldown and I DO care about that, but on the other hand, I want to die without being in my moms arms and older than 0 too! And I'm one of the players using it THAT way. Screaming about us for using it is a way to say we are bad. But that the game lacks the function to die on this way, isn't our fault, is it? I mean, if we could die without much fuss, we wouldn't NEED this shortcut!

I’m not the fighter for this shortcut, but I am using it. For the reasons I told earlier, for the reasons I told here. And I really don’t like to be told that I’m not caring for people, I care, but I do care more about my time and how I want to play it. If /die worked how it should (Not specific, not being 0, not being in your moms arms AND not being an immediate a lineage ban) I would use that instead. But I can’t. So I use this shortcut. If people get a birth cooldown for that I'm very sorry, but if the /die was wider that wouldn't also be needed!

Edit: that being said, I hate the fact that the Yum-bonus gives your more chance on a baby. Just spread them evenly..

Last edited by Luniatji (2019-01-14 16:38:44)

WomanWizard · 2019-01-14 17:00:40

MultiLife wrote:

Players can force a quit with or without a mod anyways, can they not? Just because there is a shortcut doesn't make a mod the bad guy. Sadly /die has crippling design issues which makes ctrl delete the better choice for many. It's faster, and it shouldn't be that way. /die should be faster but it's not.
Anyways, I'm not ctrl deleters' spokesperson, so I'm not gonna defend them. I am however AWBZ mod user so I won't sit and listen to Cecil's threats.
Oh and I hate that Jason added yum to baby distribution. Never wanted that.
Also no matter how long a baby assesses a situation, they won't stay. A ctrl deleter is on a mission to get back where they were, so split second or ten seconds won't matter in them thinking about it. They are browsing through, they don't care about moms on cooldowns. As Tarr said, them slapping cooldowns around is actually beneficial for them - which is honestly a game design issue.

You're making a lot of assumptions about how and why people are using this feature. Half of my babies force quit in my arms almost immediately after they are born. These babies could have easily used slash die and given me the option of having another baby right away, but they choose to use the easier force quit option that their mod offers them, wrecking the cooldowns of multiple mothers in multiple lineages in rapid succession just to get wherever they are trying to go. I don't mind if they're trying to come back as a girl, but they almost never do, because they just put their mom on cooldown.

On top of that, there are lots of people who have lots of different reasons to suicide. If I'm naked in the desert gathering cactus fruit because I want to increase my fertility, and a baby is born to me, they might think I'm a naked scavenger who has nothing going for her. If they'd take the time to let me carry them back home, which usually only takes a few seconds, they might see what the town has to offer and want to stay, because that might have been the kind of town they were looking for. I'm naked because it's hot in the desert. I don't have a backpack because I'm farming and gave it to someone who actually needs one for their job. But in that split second I look like a bad player and lose a baby and potential other babies because someone force quit on me while I was grabbing a snack. This quick die option allows babies to decide on a whim that this isn't the mother for them, without knowing much about her situation or skill level. And they do it rapidly to multiple mothers, which is a problem.

Babies will always have the option to kill themselves, and I have no problem with that. But they shouldn't ruin the playthroughs of other people in the process, which is what this mod feature is doing.

And yes, this is an issue with the mod, because the mod undid an actual update that removed this feature and implemented slash die for a very valid reason. There has been a noticeable difference in the number of surviving children (at least in my game) since this feature was added, so I'm pretty confident in pointing fingers at it. If you have a problem with a game feature, bring it to Jason and let him decide that it's something that fits his vision of the game. Don't ask a modder to undo his updates.

I'm not saying the mod has to go. I'm saying that this particular feature needs some adjusting because right now it's being abused in a bad way.

WomanWizard · 2019-01-14 17:05:53

Luniatji wrote:

That's the real problem, I said before. Not the fact that this shortcut exist, but the reason WHY it exist.. the /die isn't working optimal and it punishes people. A /die with an option to then choose "I don't want this lineage" would be better, because then 1. the mom don't get birth cooldown and 2. a person using /die isn't punished by getting out of a lineage (a reason I for one use it). A /die who you can use WITHOUT BEING IN YOUR MOMS ARMS UNDER ZERO is an option, because then this shortcut wasn't needed. But /die works on very, very specific ways and thats why this shortcut is there in the first place. Because people had asked for it, because /die didn’t work.

I absolutely agree with this. I always thought that slash die was a little too strict in it's requirements, but at the time there were no other options and it did what it needed to do. Now, unfortunately, the mod has brought us back to where we were before, without taking into consideration all the issues we had before slash die was an option.

It's great that so many people are using this feature as intended and with good intentions on top of that. But unfortunately we can't control how all mod users decide to use this feature, and they aren't all using it right.

I suppose you could argue that both the mod and the slash die feature need a change. People want less strict suicide conditions, but force quitting isn't the answer to that.

MultiLife · 2019-01-14 17:19:20

WomanWizard wrote:

You're making a lot of assumptions about how and why people are using this feature. Half of my babies force quit in my arms almost immediately after they are born. These babies could have easily used slash die and given me the option of having another baby right away, but they choose to use the easier force quit option that their mod offers them, wrecking the cooldowns of multiple mothers in multiple lineages in rapid succession just to get wherever they are trying to go. I don't mind if they're trying to come back as a girl, but they almost never do, because they just put their mom on cooldown.

I have to assume, I don't use it myself. I said I'm not their spokesperson, so I can't explain it more than that, nor have any reason to defend them either.
And if the mod didn't have the option of ctrl delete, wouldn't they just % to quit?

WomanWizard wrote:

On top of that, there are lots of people who have lots of different reasons to suicide. If I'm naked in the desert gathering cactus fruit because I want to increase my fertility, and a baby is born to me, they might think I'm a naked scavenger who has nothing going for her. If they'd take the time to let me carry them back home, which usually only takes a few seconds, they might see what the town has to offer and want to stay, because that might have been the kind of town they were looking for. I'm naked because it's hot in the desert. I don't have a backpack because I'm farming and gave it to someone who actually needs one for their job. But in that split second I look like a bad player and lose a baby and potential other babies because someone force quit on me while I was grabbing a snack. This quick die option allows babies to decide on a whim that this isn't the mother for them, without knowing much about her situation or skill level. And they do it rapidly to multiple mothers, which is a problem.
Babies will always have the option to kill themselves, and I have no problem with that. But they shouldn't ruin the playthroughs of other people in the process, which is what this mod feature is doing.
And yes, this is an issue with the mod, because the mod undid an actual update that removed this feature and implemented slash die for a very valid reason. There has been a noticeable difference in the number of surviving children (at least in my game) since this feature was added, so I'm pretty confident in pointing fingers at it. If you have a problem with a game feature, bring it to Jason and let him decide that it's something that fits his vision of the game.
I'm not saying the mod has to go. I'm saying that this particular feature needs some adjusting because right now it's being abused in a bad way.

It's abused because Jason made /die too finicky. I dare to assume, again.
And I repeat, if the mod didn't have the option of ctrl delete, wouldn't they just % to quit?

WomanWizard wrote:

Don't ask a modder to undo his updates.

???
EDIT: I think I got it now. You said "If you have a problem with a game feature, bring it to Jason and let him decide that it's something that fits his vision of the game." which made it sound like you=me, but you meant people who asked AWBZ to bring back the feature of ctrl delete, right? I wasn't one of those people and I wish Jason's /die was the best solution there was so modders didn't need to make their own quick buttons. But Jason hates the whole "decide your life" thing so I was really surprised he even implemented /die in the first place (glad he did though).

Luniatji wrote:

I don't WANT players to be on a birth cooldown and I DO care about that, but on the other hand, I want to die without being in my moms arms and older than 0 too! And I'm one of the players using it THAT way. Screaming about us for using it is a way to say we are bad. But that the game lacks the function to die on this way, isn't our fault, is it? I mean, if we could die without much fuss, we wouldn't NEED this shortcut!

Screaming about you using it...? Now that's is just confusing.

Luniatji wrote:

I’m not the fighter for this shortcut, but I am using it. For the reasons I told earlier, for the reasons I told here. And I really don’t like to be told that I’m not caring for people, I care, but I do care more about my time and how I want to play it. If /die worked how it should (Not specific, not being 0, not being in your moms arms AND not being an immediate a lineage ban) I would use that instead. But I can’t. So I use this shortcut. If people get a birth cooldown for that I'm very sorry, but if the /die was wider that wouldn't also be needed!

Then I'd rephrase that and say you care more about your time than giving people cooldowns, right? It's not a bad thing. You are free to value your time more.

Last edited by MultiLife (2019-01-14 17:43:31)

thundersen · 2019-01-14 17:52:23

WomanWizard wrote:

Half of my babies force quit in my arms almost immediately after they are born. These babies could have easily used slash die [...]

As far as I can see in the life logs for the last 7 days, disconnects are responsible for about 1.5% of all deaths. My ballpark guess based on my own babies would be maybe one in twenty. WomanWizard, are you really sure about your numbers? It's very annoying when it happens, I agree, but I think you are hugely exaggerating the effect of that mod feature.

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