Two out of eight kids were leavers, unplayable trend

CrazyEddie · 2019-01-14 18:03:55

Before /die there were lots of running babies. After /die there were fewer running babies, but still plenty of them, because /die wasn't always available. Now that there is insta-die, there are almost no running babies, because they just insta-die. If you get rid of insta-die you won't get more people staying, they'll just go back to being runners. And runners put you on cool-down the same way that insta-die does.

Wishing that people would stay and play in a situation that they don't want to play in is a fool's dream. What you should be asking for is for insta-die and running babies to not put you on cooldown. Or, equivalently, for /die to be available under wider circumstances.

WomanWizard · 2019-01-14 18:12:42

MultiLife wrote:

And if the mod didn't have the option of ctrl delete, wouldn't they just % to quit?

No, because this does not kill your character. If you % out of the game and come back in to try and spawn somewhere else, you will just pop back into the afk body you left behind, assuming someone has been feeding you.

MultiLife wrote:

WomanWizard wrote:
Don't ask a modder to undo his updates.
???
EDIT: I think I got it now. You said "If you have a problem with a game feature, bring it to Jason and let him decide that it's something that fits his vision of the game." which made it sound like you=me, but you meant people who asked AWBZ to bring back the feature of ctrl delete, right? I wasn't one of those people and I wish Jason's /die was the best solution there was so modders didn't need to make their own quick buttons. But Jason hates the whole "decide your life" thing so I was really surprised he even implemented /die in the first place (glad he did though).

Yes, it's a group you, but I did intend to you include you personally in it since you are defending the feature (whether you claim to be or not) and are pointing out all of the issues you seem to have personally with slash die. I agree, slash die is not perfect, which is why it should be up to Jason to fix it instead of having someone else undo one of his updates with a mod, to bring back an age old problem that was already fixed. This mod feature is a step backwards, not a solution.

thundersen wrote:

As far as I can see in the life logs for the last 7 days, disconnects are responsible for about 1.5% of all deaths. My ballpark guess based on my own babies would be maybe one in twenty. WomanWizard, are you really sure about your numbers? It's very annoying when it happens, I agree, but I think you are hugely exaggerating the effect of that mod feature.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. Half of my babies who force quit are doing so in my arms. Not half of my babies total. I still get at least one runner and one slash die a life, sometimes more. Maybe it just seems higher for me since I'm putting the effort in to increase my fertility, so I'm birthing a lot of the same person who's force quitting on me?

Glassius · 2019-01-14 18:28:46

WomanWizard wrote:

I agree, slash die is not perfect, which is why it should be up to Jason to fix it instead of having someone else undo one of his updates with a mod, to bring back an age old problem that was already fixed. This mod feature is a step backwards, not a solution.

Totally disagree.

Jason does not think much about his updates, which brings in many failed ideas. And thanks God for that because if he would, game would be developed much slower.

This is our role, the community, to point out failed updates and to propose others. Jason introduced many suggestions from the community already.

But, there are different way to point out, there is something to do: this forum, Reddit suggestion board, GitHub requests, Discord, mail.

In urgent areas we have also Civil disobedience. Exploiting mod dying and destroying others birth cooldown is such a thing. I used to type /DIE, but now I am going to use only Ctrl Del, to hurt other players and highlight this issue. I invite everyone to do so.

thundersen · 2019-01-14 18:29:34

WomanWizard wrote:

thundersen wrote:
As far as I can see in the life logs for the last 7 days, disconnects are responsible for about 1.5% of all deaths. My ballpark guess based on my own babies would be maybe one in twenty. WomanWizard, are you really sure about your numbers? It's very annoying when it happens, I agree, but I think you are hugely exaggerating the effect of that mod feature.
Sorry, I should have been more specific. Half of my babies who force quit are doing so in my arms. Not half of my babies total. I still get at least one runner and one slash die a life, sometimes more. Maybe it just seems higher for me since I'm putting the effort in to increase my fertility, so I'm birthing a lot of the same person who's force quitting on me?

Ah, OK. You're probably right with it being the same person, if it happens multiple times, especially during off-peak hours when sometimes there are only 20 or fewer people on a single server. For what it's worth I have opened an issue asking Jason to treat the underlying "malformed MOVE message" that awbz (ab)uses as a disconnect instead of insta-killing the character. I agree with you that this is an unfair exploit. (Except for Eves maybe, but hey, how long does suiciding as a grown-up really take? Two minutes?)

MultiLife · 2019-01-14 19:43:26

WomanWizard wrote:

No, because this does not kill your character. If you % out of the game and come back in to try and spawn somewhere else, you will just pop back into the afk body you left behind, assuming someone has been feeding you.

Well finally someone says what quit button does.

WomanWizard wrote:

Yes, it's a group you, but I did intend to you include you personally in it since you are defending the feature (whether you claim to be or not) and are pointing out all of the issues you seem to have personally with slash die. I agree, slash die is not perfect, which is why it should be up to Jason to fix it instead of having someone else undo one of his updates with a mod, to bring back an age old problem that was already fixed. This mod feature is a step backwards, not a solution.

Open source game. Oftentimes players take matters to their own hands and here we can see how players resolve their problems, as selfishly as they sometimes do. If control delete is "superior" enough for people to use it, it's time to find more solutions to baby rolling and forced quitting. If we stick with /die and won't improve the vanilla game's methods of keeping moms safe from baby suicide abuse, control delete won't go away, it'll only shapeshift into other things.

So how am I defending ctrl delete? I just read all my messages in this thread and I cannot see the connection. If I have issues with /die it doesn't mean I defend ctrl delete, does it? It shouldn't!

What I have an issue with:
Cecil opting for killing mod users just because of some minority which uses ctrl delete command in the mod.
You saying I defend the feature whether I claim to or not (how nice, no matter what I say, you know better, my claims have no weight on this for some reason, even when I said twice I'm not the feature's defender or the spokesman of its users).
/die not being quitters fastest/best option which makes them do other kinds of suicides as long as they can - and because all games must be killable, they'll find a way.
Moms getting cooldowns when they don't want cooldowns.
What I don't have an issue with:
/die being in game.
Ctrl delete never being in AWBZ mod.
What I'm neutral about:
People using ctrl delete - I don't personally care. Which, again, doesn't mean I defend it. >_> Won't babies just run if that option disappears? If they want you on cooldown, they can put you on one. That's the issue.

Last edited by MultiLife (2019-01-14 19:56:06)

WomanWizard · 2019-01-14 20:47:38

Glassius wrote:

WomanWizard wrote:
I agree, slash die is not perfect, which is why it should be up to Jason to fix it instead of having someone else undo one of his updates with a mod, to bring back an age old problem that was already fixed. This mod feature is a step backwards, not a solution.
Totally disagree.
Jason does not think much about his updates, which brings in many failed ideas. And thanks God for that because if he would, game would be developed much slower.
This is our role, the community, to point out failed updates and to propose others. Jason introduced many suggestions from the community already.
But, there are different way to point out, there is something to do: this forum, Reddit suggestion board, GitHub requests, Discord, mail.
In urgent areas we have also Civil disobedience. Exploiting mod dying and destroying others birth cooldown is such a thing. I used to type /DIE, but now I am going to use only Ctrl Del, to hurt other players and highlight this issue. I invite everyone to do so.

Yes! I was actually going to write up a little something about how using this mod feature and the resulting uproar will make the issue more visible and increase the likelihood of Jason doing something about slash die, but it didn't seem relevant to anything I was saying at the time. This is the exact reason I'm here to talk about my issues with it and my agreement that slash die needs some fixes as well.

So yes. It is a solution, just not the final product, hopefully.

MultiLife wrote:

So how am I defending ctrl delete? I just read all my messages in this thread and I cannot see the connection. If I have issues with /die it doesn't mean I defend ctrl delete, does it? It shouldn't!

Because my main point is that the way some people are using this one, singular mod feature, is kind of ruining the game for me and others. And you are arguing with me over people's use of this feature. You keep saying that without the feature they'll find other ways to die (which while true, they were doing this before the mod feature was added and it wasn't causing the same problems,) which to me looks like you are defending the use and inclusion of this mod feature. I'm sorry if this is not the case and if my responses came across as hostile, but that's just the way it looks on my end.

By the way, since it seems you were confused about the quit button, it used to do exactly what the force quit feature does now. It was causing problems with babies dropping dead in their mother's arms, ruining their birth cooldown, and ending lineages as a result. It's actually the whole reason slash die exists in the first place. Jason changed it so that the quit button would keep your character in game so that people couldn't use it as a suicide method and would have to use slash die or otherwise run. Now the option to do that is back as a mod, and with it come the same issues we had before slash die was a thing. Admittedly less severe, since babies still have the option to slash die and we have a higher population of players than we did back then.

Léonard · 2019-01-15 05:07:26

WomanWizard wrote:

No, because this does not kill your character. If you % out of the game and come back in to try and spawn somewhere else, you will just pop back into the afk body you left behind, assuming someone has been feeding you.

Then this means % is absolutely worse.
In fact, I'd even call it broken.
% is supposed to mean "I want to quit the game" yet your client does not signal to the server that you are ending your game? This is clearly broken or at best an incomplete feature.
Note that with the official way to quit the game that Jason himself put in the problem still persists because leaving with the bind won't reset the baby cooldown and worst still your player body is left behind meaning someone might waste food on you trying to keep you alive.
Unless Jason intended for other connecting clients to take the player body left behind (which I doubt very much) this does not make any sense.

WomanWizard wrote:

By the way, since it seems you were confused about the quit button, it used to do exactly what the force quit feature does now. It was causing problems with babies dropping dead in their mother's arms, ruining their birth cooldown, and ending lineages as a result. It's actually the whole reason slash die exists in the first place. Jason changed it so that the quit button would keep your character in game so that people couldn't use it as a suicide method and would have to use slash die or otherwise run.

This doesn't make sense either.
As you said, if the mod shortcut wasn't there and people couldn't /die out then they would suicide (aka running baby).
Why waste a bunch of time making people trying to starve themselves or find a bear instead of simply allowing them to die instantly?
You might as well give them such a tool because they would end up dying anyways without it.
That's WHY this shortcut exists in the first place.

Let's enumerate the reasons as to why someone would be using the shortcut over /die:

They're unaware of its negative impact

This means they either still think it simply does /die (which it did previously) and haven't noticed the change or simply don't know about its effect on other people.
If they're using the shortcut over /die without knowing about its effect on other people then this falls into the convenience category which I'm going to address in a second.
They are aware of its negative impact

If people do use the shortcut rather than /die knowing what it does, then you should ask yourself why that is.
There is only 2 logical possibilities:
- It is more convenient
  
  If a mod shortcut is more convenient than its counterpart in the official version and people use it for that reason then it is up to Jason to make his official version as convenient as the mod's.
  Two major things come to mind: it's faster and also guarantees a proper disconnection each use.
  To put it more clearly if you try to use /die and it does not work then all you are left with is suicide or the % bind which not only does not provide a proper disconnection on the server but also completely exits the game's process.
- It is different
  
  Now this is very important.
  Remember, these people aren't accidentally using this instead of /die which means if this shortcut wasn't there they would be running babies which means what we're really talking about here is the problem of running babies (which is Jason's problem to fix, not the mod's).
  As far as I'm aware, using the shortcut is only different to /die in two ways: it doesn't reset the cooldown and you are not lineage banned.
  So if you are simply using this because it doesn't reset your mother's cooldown then it's a simple matter of griefing.
  And if you are simply using this because it does not lineage ban you then that means you would want to play in this lineage, just not this life. Most likely this is because the person is born with their unpreferred sex.

So, the only case where you can argue that the mod has a negative impact is when the people who updated are still using this shortcut thinking it's still simply doing /die.
Let's also connect some dots here: people who use the shortcut are people who don't want to live the current life they have, or in other words, they're abandoning.
People who run away as babies are doing exactly the same thing: they're abandoning.
We might as well consider the two equal here.
People who run as babies have always been a problem regarding the cooldown and as long as you don't fix that, fixing the "exploit" is pretty much pointless.
It's Jason's job to fix this.
So I think it's time people stop vilifying users of the awbz mod, it is simply nonsense, and what happens always happens for a reason.

WomanWizard wrote:

But they shouldn't ruin the playthroughs of other people in the process, which is what this mod feature is doing.

WomanWizard wrote:

And yes, this is an issue with the mod, because the mod undid an actual update that removed this feature

WomanWizard wrote:

Because my main point is that the way some people are using this one, singular mod feature, is kind of ruining the game for me and others.

But as was already pointed out a couple times, and as I logically concluded above, runner babies are exactly the same thing and yet this is not fixed.

MultiLife wrote:

Jason hates the whole "decide your life" thing

thundersen wrote:

I agree with you that this is an unfair exploit.

I think when people are literally calling a simple disconnect button an exploit, things are getting dangerous.
This is kind of like the "socialism vs capitalism" debates.
You cannot force people to give you something that they don't want to give you (their time in this case rather than their money), end of story.
What you should instead focus on doing is providing people the best tools to decide if they want to invest their time in this current life or if they would rather die (ie making /die the superior thing).
You should also think about giving those people more incentive to stay if you want a higher rate of living babies vs runner babies.
Imagine what would happen if Jason successfully forced runner babies and shortcut users to either go back to the life they abandoned or quit like the % bind currently does.
That would be catastrophic.
People would either stop playing the game completely (because what kind of game forces you to play when you clearly don't want to honestly) or start griefing.

On a more positive note, I had an idea about the running babies issue.
I think there is a reason as to why using /die resets the cooldown but not running babies.
I think Jason intended for babies dying of natural causes to always count towards the cooldown because ideally it should be considered the mother's fault for her baby's death, not the baby's.
If as a mother your baby dies in real life, you are by definition a bad mother, and that would be why they still count towards the cooldown, it would favorize good mothers over bad mothers who let their children starve.
I'm not saying this is fact, but if it is, then making a baby's death not count towards the cooldown is pretty much out of the question.
If /die was made the superior disconnect method over the shortcut, then the only things left would be people who don't want a lineage ban or people who want to grief the cooldown.
What if we went all the way with the "mother is bad if her baby dies" philosophy and made babies walk much, much slower. Like say a third of normal speed.
This would mean that the only choice people who want to abandon have is the /die command (which, assuming it's made the better choice, wouldn't be a problem at all).
Which in turn means that people staying as babies are guaranteed to be willing to play their current life.
Now I know a third of the normal speed sounds pretty bad, but hear me out on this.
First, you would still be able to carry your baby like normal, but on top of that, babies could also be made to be a carryable object like how big objects like firewood can be carried.
So you could fill your backpack with one baby or put up to four babies in a handcart or still carry one single baby in your own hands.
You might think this is bad for eve runs, but this simply means that you are limited to one baby while looking for a spot.
As eve, once you have your camp setup you can simply do what I assume eves were already doing and put your children in one specific spot while you're busy fetching various stuff and come back regularly to feed all of them at once.
Ideally, this could incentivize the use of nursery in developed towns, since busy women who need to fetch stuff could drop their children there (unless they have a backpack or a handcart for multiple children).
In the case where you have a single baby, you can still simply carry it around if you are busy (at the risk of having another one on the way) which I was already doing anyways because let's be fair, babies are slow enough that asking them to follow you is a huge struggle already.
In short, you would sacrifice the possibility of having multiple children far from town and without proper gear (backpack or handcart) for the fixing of runner babies AND finally getting the possibility of carrying babies around with something other than your own hands.
Thoughts?

I know this was a very long post, sorry about that.

Azrael · 2019-01-15 07:39:00

Booklat1 wrote:

i really wish people to stop asking Jason to fix what isn't broken. Some people don't wanna play eve camps, you'll have to wait for those that do.

You're saying what we're all thinking!

Too many times an eve complains that their kids don't stay but in reality their kids dont want to be stuck with an eve who may or may not survive and produce a proper lineage.

I also agree with cecil om the premises of many pro players /dieing to run away from "noobs" and "bad spawns" because while this is somewhat reasonable it becomes really annoying when they then complain about people leaving their civ just like they did to the eves, hypocrisy really.

But yeah we cant control who leaves or not, all we can control is the system on how they leave, but they WILL leave, no matter what. We cant stop that anyways, i mean every game has people that leave for whatever reason be it passive or anger or emergency we cant judge them.

What if someones family was in danger and they had ti stop playing? What if they had a test to do? Or they forgot something important? Qe cant judge other peoples actions based on if they stay or not.

TL:DR we cant stop people from leaving, but to be a hypocrite is something we can stop oirselves from being.

WomanWizard · 2019-01-15 15:39:15

Léonard wrote:

WomanWizard wrote:
By the way, since it seems you were confused about the quit button, it used to do exactly what the force quit feature does now. It was causing problems with babies dropping dead in their mother's arms, ruining their birth cooldown, and ending lineages as a result. It's actually the whole reason slash die exists in the first place. Jason changed it so that the quit button would keep your character in game so that people couldn't use it as a suicide method and would have to use slash die or otherwise run.
This doesn't make sense either.
As you said, if the mod shortcut wasn't there and people couldn't /die out then they would suicide (aka running baby).
Why waste a bunch of time making people trying to starve themselves or find a bear instead of simply allowing them to die instantly?
You might as well give them such a tool because they would end up dying anyways without it.
That's WHY this shortcut exists in the first place.

It was also put in place so that people could reconnect after disconnection issues, so I wouldn't call it broken. Jason thought long and hard about this issue before he put in slash die. We had this same discussion about a player's right to suicide and the griefing that would come about if that right was removed before and Jason chimed in with all of his points on the subject, eventually deciding on keeping characters in game even if the player leaves, and allowing them to suicide within rather strict limits with the slash die feature. As many have pointed out, these limitations are a little too limiting, causing players to search out better options.

But it's important to remember that the way players want to play the game isn't always coherent with a game that actually functions, let alone functions in the way the dev intended. Jason wanted to make it harder to suicide because he never wanted babies to be able to suicide in the first place, but he knows he can't stop them, and runners and force quitters were wrecking everyone else's experience by putting their moms on cooldown. He came up with a solution that allowed players to suicide, removed the birth cooldown, lineage banned them from that family (because in most cases they were trying to find a specific type of location and this would speed up the process), and wasn't ridiculously easy.

He believed that it was simply the culture of older players that was causing the suicides, and he didn't want the newer steam players to develop these habits by making it too easy for them.

Léonard wrote:

But as was already pointed out a couple times, and as I logically concluded above, runner babies are exactly the same thing and yet this is not fixed.

Except they aren't the same. Runner babies take a while to suicide on their mother in most cases. They can't just force quit a second after being born, then do the same thing rapidly to a whole bunch of mothers throughout the game until they find the place they are trying to go. Not only does this frustrate the mothers, what happens when most of the mothers in game are on cooldown because more than one person is trying to use this feature at the same time? They put all the moms on cooldown and can't spawn into the family they are trying to spawn into because some other mod user put the family they wanted on cooldown. On the other hand, the runner takes longer to suicide, meaning mothers have time to reset their cooldowns before the runner baby makes its way to them.

The mod feature works, in theory, so long as only a few people are using it. But the more people use it simultaneously, the more lineages they wreck collectively, and the longer it will take them to find the family they are looking for. They might as well have used slash die if they were given the option (aka, mom picked them up in the first year of their life,) otherwise, the more people use this feature, the more they step on each other's toes in the process. It's a feature that gives the players what they want, without properly considering the game design and functionality of things in the long run.

On top of those issues, when it's too easy for someone to suicide, they are more likely to do it. I know, a whole bunch of people are going to chime in here and say that that's not the case for them, but remember that you are not all the people who use this mod. When more people have access to a feature like this, even if they were not among the group of people who asked for it, they are going to use it. It's available and makes things a little too easy. However, when they know it's going to be a few minutes, between running off to die and potentially spawning into another situation they don't like, more people are more likely to take the time to really consider if they want to be where they are currently, instead of dropping dead on the mom who left camp for a second to grab a few branches for the forge, simply because they didn't take the time to let that mom show them the camp that's only a few screens away.

This isn't just a dev issue. When the player base wants a feature that the dev is against adding in an open source game, it then becomes up to the mod creators to decide if the feature is actually a good idea. I do agree that Jason should have another look at slash die and make the conditions a little easier to trigger, but this mod feature, as it currently is, also needs to be reworked to at the very least reset birth cooldowns if possible (and as someone who only has the most basic knowledge of programing, I can't tell you if that's possible,) otherwise we'll be right back where we started before slash die was a thing.

I also apologize for my long posts. I like writing a little too much, oops!

One Hour One Life Forums

#51 2019-01-14 18:03:55

Re: Two out of eight kids were leavers, unplayable trend

#52 2019-01-14 18:12:42

Re: Two out of eight kids were leavers, unplayable trend

#53 2019-01-14 18:28:46

Re: Two out of eight kids were leavers, unplayable trend

#54 2019-01-14 18:29:34

Re: Two out of eight kids were leavers, unplayable trend

#55 2019-01-14 19:43:26

Re: Two out of eight kids were leavers, unplayable trend

#56 2019-01-14 20:47:38

Re: Two out of eight kids were leavers, unplayable trend

#57 2019-01-15 05:07:26

Re: Two out of eight kids were leavers, unplayable trend

#58 2019-01-15 07:39:00

Re: Two out of eight kids were leavers, unplayable trend

#59 2019-01-15 15:39:15

Re: Two out of eight kids were leavers, unplayable trend

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