Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

Booklat1 · 2019-03-01 18:31:34

BladeWoods wrote:

And eating carrots is well worth it far before 17 yum.

prove it. math says otherwise.

DestinyCall · 2019-03-01 18:59:44

BladeWoods wrote:

Make multiple foods at once. When you make stew, you can also make popcorn, green beans, and shucked corn to eat at the same time.
When you make omelots, before you put the flat rock on you can make skewered rabbit or other skewered things. And you can make burritos at the same time.
When you make pie, do mutton pie and rabbit pie and cooked mutton.
And eating carrots is well worth it far before 17 yum.

If you only look at the base value of the food plus the yum bonus, the carrot looks fine at lower yum values, but you should also consider the cost of producing and eating that food item compared with producing and eating a better food item, like mutton pie. That is why the yum chain needs to be a lot higher than you might expect before carrots, green beans, or fresh corn become viable yum options.

These foods are relatively "easy" to produce in terms of time, but costly in terms of resources and hidden opportunity costs. If you are playing solo, this doesn't matter that much. But if you are trying to feed an entire village of people who may or may not understand how to yum responsibly, it makes more sense to focus on Tier 1 or 2 foods. These foods are productive and efficient enough to feed a wide range of people, regardless of skill level, even if they have wasteful eating habits like eating too often or too much and even if they are naked most of the time. Producing and eating Tier 3 or 4 foods usually involves a decent amount of wastefulness, either because the food production process is costly or because there are really great pip-dense foods that could have been made with the same base ingredients. This should generally be avoided, unless you really really know what you are doing with your life.

Instead of arguing the yum potential of low efficiency foods, it is better to add yum bonus to high effieciency foods. That is a win-win situation for everyone.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-03-01 20:31:30)

BladeWoods · 2019-03-01 19:19:43

Booklat1 wrote:

BladeWoods wrote:
And eating carrots is well worth it far before 17 yum.
prove it. math says otherwise.

I haven't seen your ridiculous math. You think a carrot needs to give you 24 food to be worth it? That doesn't make any sense.

Last edited by BladeWoods (2019-03-01 19:29:09)

Booklat1 · 2019-03-01 19:37:16

BladeWoods wrote:

Booklat1 wrote:
BladeWoods wrote:
And eating carrots is well worth it far before 17 yum.
prove it. math says otherwise.
I haven't seen your ridiculous math. You think a carrot needs to give you 24 food to be worth it? That doesn't make any mathematical sense.

carrot at 24 food: (7 + 17) x 5 = 120 food
milk from corn, same costs, no yum: 4x(10x14)=560

all math is ridiculous if you don't read it, bud.

olooopo · 2019-03-01 23:33:41

Booklat1 wrote:

BladeWoods wrote:
Booklat1 wrote:
prove it. math says otherwise.
I haven't seen your ridiculous math. You think a carrot needs to give you 24 food to be worth it? That doesn't make any mathematical sense.
carrot at 24 food: (7 + 17) x 5 = 120 food
milk from corn, same costs, no yum: 4x(10x14)=560

all math is ridiculous if you don't read it, bud.

That's not accurate! You can get several buckets of milk from one milk cow...
Milk is op and every food is shit compared to it. The only reason someone would still eat mutton pie is because it's a byproduct from compost.
The problem with milk is, though, that a great deal of the player base doesn't know its potential. Today I spawned in a city which had freaking rails from the sheep pen to the bakery but a cow pen was completely missing.

Also, I made a cow pen and five buckets for a smaller town today. Two buckets got stolen before I could milk the cow for the first time. Therefore, I could only make two buckets of whole milk and one bucket of skim milk. I placed all of the buckets near the nursery (which was in the center of the town and not in a building) and announced them. Then, I watched how my milk was used from a distance. Sadly, in ten minutes waiting no one touched the buckets, even tough it was right in front of the wet nurses which rather ate the pies from the bakery above. I suicided because of that...
So, the problem I see with your math is , firstly, that milk isn't always available (especially true for early towns) and, secondly, many people don't see it as a food source which is kinda sad.

Furthermore, your model doesn't put into consideration that food isn't used in an efficient way and overeating is quiet common. I don't count my pips before I take a bite from a pie or eat stew. Also, I don't time my eating and , thus, I usually eat (and overeat) when its convenient for me. In my opinion, people which avoid overeating waste time and I don't see much difference here to people which try to maximize their yum bonus.

Someone repeatedly said in this thread that yum is a toy which isn't true (imho). Yum is a pretty useful tool in many situation. As an Eve or when food is scarce, for example, you should always try to eat food in order so that you maximize the yum bonus (if access to the food is easily provided of course). I am someone which spends a lot of time outside of the village in search for ropes, iron or rabbits. It's easy to get a yum bonus of at least four if you have to travel through different biomes and no waste of time. Afterwards when you are back in the city you can continue your yum chain.

I am no yum enthusiast tho. The largest yum bonus I ever had was 16 if I remember correctly and then I got stabbed (because drama happened). Usually, when I am in a descent town I yum until I have +10 and I don't make food like green beans or popcorn but I'll eat them for yum when I spot them on the ground. Pies is a different story because they all look the same. I'd not recommend to make berry or berry and carrot pie because people usually don't look for them. It's too much labor to fill a bowl of berries and you are most likely the only person which uses them for yum. All other people will feel pranked if they expected a meat pie and get a berry pie.

Tacos, on the other hand, are great for getting rid of this stupid pork meat in the bakery and I'm always thankful to the person which is making them.

Last edited by olooopo (2019-03-01 23:40:16)

Booklat1 · 2019-03-01 23:48:19

olooopo wrote:

Booklat1 wrote:
BladeWoods wrote:
I haven't seen your ridiculous math. You think a carrot needs to give you 24 food to be worth it? That doesn't make any mathematical sense.
carrot at 24 food: (7 + 17) x 5 = 120 food
milk from corn, same costs, no yum: 4x(10x14)=560

all math is ridiculous if you don't read it, bud.
That's not accurate! You can get several buckets of milk from one milk cow...
Milk is op and every food is shit compared to it. The only reason someone would still eat mutton pie is because it's a byproduct from compost.
The problem with milk is, though, that a great deal of the player base doesn't know its potential. Today I spawned in a city which had freaking rails from the sheep pen to the bakery but a cow pen was completely missing.
Also, I made a cow pen and five buckets for a smaller town today. Two buckets got stolen before I could milk the cow for the first time. Therefore, I could only make two buckets of whole milk and one bucket of skim milk. I placed all of the buckets near the nursery (which was in the center of the town and not in a building) and announced them. Then, I watched how my milk was used from a distance. Sadly, in ten minutes waiting no one touched the buckets, even tough it was right in front of the wet nurses which rather ate the pies from the bakery above. I suicided because of that...
So, the problem I see with your math is , firstly, that milk isn't always available (especially true for early towns) and, secondly, many people don't see it as a food source which is kinda sad.
Furthermore, your model doesn't put into consideration that food isn't used in an efficient way and overeating is quiet common. I don't count my pips before I take a bite from a pie or eat stew. Also, I don't time my eating and , thus, I usually eat (and overeat) when its convenient for me. In my opinion, people which avoid overeating waste time and I don't see much difference here to people which try to maximize their yum bonus.
Someone repeatedly said in this thread that yum is a toy which isn't true (imho). Yum is a pretty useful tool in many situation. As an Eve or when food is scarce, for example, you should always try to eat food in order so that you maximize the yum bonus (if access to the food is easily provided of course). I am someone which spends a lot of time outside of the village in search for ropes, iron or rabbits. It's easy to get a yum bonus of at least four if you have to travel through different biomes and no waste of time. Afterwards when you are back in the city you can continue your yum chain.
I am no yum enthusiast tho. The largest yum bonus I ever had was 16 if I remember correctly and then I got stabbed (because drama happened). Usually, when I am in a descent town I yum until I have +10 and I don't make food like green beans or popcorn but I'll eat them for yum when I spot them on the ground. Pies is a different story because they all look the same. I'd not recommend to make berry or berry and carrot pie because people usually don't look for them. It's too much labor to fill a bowl of berries and you are most likely the only person which uses them for yum. All other people will feel pranked if they expected a meat pie and get a berry pie.
Tacos, on the other hand, are great for getting rid of this stupid pork meat in the bakery and I'm always thankful to the person which is making them.

yeah, its worst case milk i've been talking about, which makes this discussion even more stupid

Greep · 2019-03-02 05:06:57

My last life I drank milk only just for fun. I used up 6 corn, some of it was skim even. So basically, one soil and bowl of water. Speed milking actually is less efficient, technically, although if more than a few people actually drank the darned stuff it'd be useful.

I think the reason nobody drinks it is because the better players are usually fetching stuff, and you can't put "emergency" milk in a backpack. Like sure I had free food.. but foraged food is also free.

Last edited by Greep (2019-03-02 08:00:23)

pein · 2019-03-02 12:11:38

i did some basic math on the heated farm topic

you need 4 bushes per person per 10 min
that's 100% berry eating baseline while people pick it off instantly and put soil and water

21 bushes are enough for 5 people, that cost you 6 compost per hour, and making compost cost you 25% of its own worth
around 4-5 bowls of soil, one wheat is 2, one carrot is at start 2 soil/5 so 0.4 then 1 soil per 5, 0.2. then the seed 2 soil for each seven ideally, that's 0.3 per seed
plus 2 bowls of berries which is a bit less than 2 soil
thats between 4-5 if no one picks the seed row, no one lets carrot to seed
people pick off bushes, people feed sheep, make compost
which never really happens, rather all people starve when you pick off bushes which has its advantages

now a compost is 21 bowls of soil so 4x of the input comes back as output, and you can use 75% of compost on whatever
that can be stew, corn, milkweed

plate efficiency and bowl efficiency also limits the camp output

contrary to what people think, more bushes arent more food
its still the same average, still the same work needed, still the same output per soil and water
even more hoe usage, more time for growing if extending instead of fixing them

that the base. overeating, kid feeding, lot of things come into play.
now if a person wont fix 4 bushes per 10 min, or equivalent food production, then is a leach
that is acceptable if works on the tools, pen, maybe if their kids take over and do it until they grow
if you don't produce, you can still yum and scavenge

the problem is that people don't understand the basic math about yum:
if you are spending more time to find a food, than the yum bonus lasts, than its not worth it
"oh but the next level better"
still, you already wasted time for the first food, then the second is a waste too, not sure when it equals the time invested

lets say player A only eats berry but picks off bushes, puts soil, waters it, and makes compost
this way he produces enough for himself for 21 bushes, which is 21x7x5 pips 735
that's enough for a life naked

now not only that your yum doesn't affect anyone else but you, you might waste resources on the food waste time
while not doing anything to get into a stable level

and that's why i don't like early stew makers either
if you use the early branches for stew or plates, don't even dare to say you don't delay smithing
so if your really think about it, you just fuck up everyone's game for that hour for making a few stew, considering that most decent players care about technological advancement, food is just delays until you get smart people to do the tools/pen, etc.

so 20 bushes can feed 5 people, babies get quite of a discount on first 3 min but if they die is kinda waste of work time
you can say, if only toddlers and old people eat it, and manage to go below 50% berry eating, than your camp is doing well

so the statement that yum saves you time, might be true, but alone yumming makes no advantage
and quite of a distraction

now if you consider that you are on a public server with big population:
dead people don't eat
all others got a food cost per minute
once a kid is 5 year old, has to eat
and that food is a fuel for others too
easy math: if they don't know, don't see, cat eat so they die
so letting more babies alive, eventually kills them or others
its not that you got 10 kids so you eat less, the cost is still the same
if you overpass it by 1, one player dies, this goes until the output is bigger than what people eat

with yum, you only delay the food intake, but if you don't produce food in meantime, then it's the same exact thing

now i had lifes when i made compost, kinda all game, gets boring
yet i always try to make 1-2 each life, that already covered the cost of all your food
and if everyone would make 1 compost and get 1-2 firewood, then the city would be covered for next hour

big cities wild food? that's a no go, they don't regenerate and its unsustainable, will take more time than you gain on it, and if in meantime you don't scout and gather, then its not worth it

yum was introduces so people branch out and don't eat multiple times the same thing but its only viable if you got the food ready
your camp produces 5 food types? its advisable that everyone eats everything once then starts over again

that can be archived by putting all food types close together onto strategic points

one small camp has one strategic point, and kinda 5 people max

now if you got more than 12 people, you need multiple ovens, multiple pens, multiple berry farms spaced out, maybe on cardinal or diagonal directions to use space more efficiently and coordinate

the main issue with yum, is that people forget why do they yum, you eat to live not live to eat
and even f you don't cost others work or food, you arent really helping either

i generally grab a cart and pick 4 bowls (or 6), feed the sheep with it then 4 more to make compost, using up the dung
then cut the sheep and make the pies
a full circle has a lot of output food, resources

now another process is making straw hats, and/or baskets, make bread, you get indirectly food reduction from hats

cooking 1/3 of rabbts, making rabbit and rabbit carrot pie gives yum and cleans up the place

same goes for people who complain about cooking mutton raw, if you got dung, it means you are behind on compost
so you might be behind on ropes therefore transport and storage too
increasing plate numbers allows faster processing, but if you got more meat than wheat, and still got dung, you will use the wheat for compost and wont overproduce wheat until you got compost
so no reason to have more meat than plates at the actual moment, sheep is just walking meat so you need a wheat field the size of the pen just for compost

doing things in massive scale is always better than 4 people doing it separately, its always some error on some part and hard to pick up what others were doing if there is no system

and honestly, yumming on multiple foods, rather than just eating pies wont worth it
in extreme case that you got a huge yum and work hard to produce other stuff, that's good, but im happy if people swap berries, berry bowls and popcorn for example, and if we got excess than people use it, and create excess soil with the saved time

now i seen people who just do everything to keep others alive
but it wont help, you got a timer of 5 min on carrot and a timer of 8 min on berry and on everything, so if you arent considerate about future, and others arent then you wont survive that period yum or not yum.
and if you can make a long yum chain, possibly you could do a small yum chain for multiple people, and that's better.
also we need to support newbees who arent fast enough to see all food, and they need simple instructions on how to eat.
like a board floor of 3x3 with all foods possible in 4 corners of the city

not helping is the same as hurting others
as they need to calculate on 20 people where 15 doesn't do anything
so they get 4x times the work, and they will flip the table and everyone dies
now newbees are ok to feed cause they try to learn
but people who know how to produce stuff and they don't do it, ruin others game
then those players next life say, that they don't farm this life, then everyone who learns the game concludes than is more efficient to leach on others than to produce something

anyway, no big cities came from the thinking of "i wont be here so i don't care"
and i made complete districts in big cities
when people thought compost is impossible i did it gen 2

so far i havent seen people who are yumming and keep up the tempo with me and i know most of the fast clickers
and maybe i eat more times per life but sure as hell i do 4x amount of work than you running around to get a wild cockatoo egg to mix it with your granola bar xD

Spoonwood · 2019-03-02 14:09:17

Booklat1 wrote:

because unlike you i dont waste my entire life yumming shit to EQUAL milk. Not surpass, equal, and only best case scenario.

There is no shit in the game.

Booklat wrote:

read the math we provided, refute it, get out if you cant.

I already did. I talked about fertility as well as talking about getting a lot yum.

Booklat wrote:

You dont need ONE person at 20 yum for it to be worth it bad foods, you need many or there will be waste for each bite, its proven.

No, it has not. There might not exist many people playing. Even on the bigserver, towns die out and at some point there exists only one person left.

Booklat wrote:

You'll waste a lot before you and only you get to 20.

Nope. The total efficiency of all foods in a chain comes as the same regardless of whether you eat green beans at +1 yum and a berry in a bowl at +20 yum vs. eating the berry in a bowl at +1 yum and green beans +20 yum, because each increase/decrease of a particular food with respect to its efficency decreases/increases the efficiency of the food it got changed with.

Booklat wrote:

Or can you guarantee everyone constantly yums up to 15?

Please. You can't guarantee that people eat foods you consider efficient either. Berry munching comes as well-known playstyle.

Booklat wrote:

And worse:
Eating corn raw yums 4 people, milks yum 40 people and popcorn 12, same costs and disconsidering pip amount.
2 popcorn plus each milk yums 8 people for +3, raw corn 4 people for +1 the same costs.

So what? Water and soil become infinite after a while. So does iron actually.

Booklat wrote:

Bad foods dont even help your towns yum. Make tons of milks and stew if you want people to get bonus yum, after that food will barely even matter.

Again, there are no bad foods. And NO, food will still matter. If you play on the bigserver, your family is always in competition with other families for babies. What increases the odds of your females getting the players that come in and play? Yum. Thus, yum always matters.

Booklat wrote:

Lets be clear, yum doesnt "get good" at 20.
its just some foods are very wasteful if eaten at anything less, even a single no yum bite.

Nope, that's not right. If the chain goes up to 20, it doesn't matter if you ate some food at +1 yum or +18 yum, for example. The total efficiency of your diet remains the same, provided that the foods are the same.

Booklat wrote:

Yumming low with good foods is awesome though.

It won't outdo a sizeable yum chain, because all foods eaten become more efficient with a sizeable yum chain. And there exists more fertility.

Booklat wrote:

yeah, tarr, pein, crazyeddie and twisted are noobs and spoonwood is great.

I didn't call them noobs. Tarr didn't argue against yum, did he? Also, I think Twisted said that yum is a powerful mechanism and meant it. He has videos showing him using yum a good bit also.

Booklat wrote:

Among them is the best eve in the game.

Ok... whatever. Like that can get evaluated in the first place, since a family's development depends more on the Eve's descendants than the Eve. Also, Eve strategy has changed significantly, so again, I don't know how that can even get evaluated accurately.

Booklat wrote:

You got nothing and tells people potatoes are good.

Assuming that a settlement has a newcomen charcoal pump, potatoes are better than diesel engine for a car or for a diesel water pump.

Booklat wrote:

Worse, its a lie since we mathematically proved you wrong.

No, you did not. You didn't even do any calculations for past twenty yum. And NONE of your math even touches the fertility bonus.

Spoonwood · 2019-03-02 14:41:16

DestinyCall wrote:

If you are interested in yum, start with Tier 1 foods and work your way toward Tier 4 foods.

No. Bread requires a knife. Milk requires a bucket. So does buttered bread. Sliced turkey requires a knife. So do turkey broth and drumsticks. Sauerkraut requires a cabbage shredder. Pork tacos require a knife. Mango slices require a knife and a bucket. Notice a theme yet?

All of those foods require iron processed into steel and then made into a tool to make. There exist PLENTY of other foods that don't require iron. So, really, with the exception of mutton pie, all pie types can get cooked before iron processing. So can stew and plenty of other foods.

Thus, if you have an interest in yum, after forging a good amount of plates, bowls, and crock pots, cook those pies, stew, and make other foods that don't need iron based tools. That way your yum gets up earlier.

DestinyCall wrote:

This is the most efficient and least wasteful way to yum.

No, it's not. The most glaring example is the mushroom. There is NO cost to the mushroom. No soil, water, or kindling needed for it. So, the pips come for free (once the mushroom appears... but it's not like the player has to stand in front of the soil pit for an hour). Mushrooms have infinite efficiency in comparison to the soil, water, and kindling cost. Cooked fish also only require kindling and some time, so I think they are off.

DestinyCall wrote:

There are ten unique food items in each category, so if you work to establish all Tier 1 and 2 foods in your village during your lifetime, you will be providing a net benefit to your village while also facilitating your ability to maintain a +20 yum chain.

Alright, the non iron based foods list goes, 7 of the pies, popcorn, berry, berry in a bowl (10), green beans, three sister's stew (12), cooked fish, bean burritos (14), domestic carrot, wild carrot, onion, burdock (18), banana, cactus fruit, omelette (21), cooked rabbit, and shucked ear of corn (23). So, if I counted correctly, there's more than a plus twenty yum chain possible without any foods which need iron to make. Take out the wild foods, and it's still 18 foods. I left out the mushroom also.

If you have a knife and can spare a bucket, I agree that going for bread and especially milks makes sense. But, if you don't, there's plenty of other foods that can made once you have clay bowls, plates, and a crock pot or two.

DestinyCall wrote:

If you are already spending the time to yum, why not take a moment to consider the quality of the food you eat?

I agree with that to a large extent. When I play, and there's milk around, I make a point of making sure to drink the milks early when I can (without overfilling the pip bar or minimal overfilling). I will point out though that cooking all of the pie types can get done in one batch of fire probably by most people. Probably bread and cooked mutton also. Having more food types around isn't bad. Also, if you're starting from scratch, non-iron tool based foods can work out as quicker than iron tool based foods.

Spoonwood · 2019-03-02 14:42:19

BladeWoods wrote:

Make multiple foods at once.

That's why I keep talking about making (almost) all of the pie types. It's the quickest way to make multiple food types at once.

Greep · 2019-03-02 14:54:16

I take it you haven't actually tried the mushroom yet have you? XD

In any case, the main thing people tend to forget about yum, is that the carrot you're eating at 16 yum isn't 7 + 16 = 23, it's essentially 7 + ~8 = 15, which is a lot less impressive. You can't ignore that the earlier foods had lower yum, and must consider the average yum for every food in the list for each piece.

Last edited by Greep (2019-03-02 15:20:21)

breezeknight · 2019-03-02 15:18:30

pein wrote:

...
the problem is that people don't understand the basic math about yum:
if you are spending more time to find a food, than the yum bonus lasts, than its not worth it
"oh but the next level better"
still, you already wasted time for the first food, then the second is a waste too, not sure when it equals the time invested
...

that's what i was saying
collecting yum bonus is a game in itself, a side game to the OHOL game, not the main game
nothing wrong with it if someone likes to play it
i personally don't like it
it's ok that there is the yum in the game but there are other interesting things to do than collecting yum

& what would be its purpose if that was RL ?
"today i did spend the whole day eating different things", yeah great, quite self absorbed, aren't we ?

i wish there was overeating & obesity in game, that would be quite a game changer & oc another option to grief, but that aside
it would make sense to eat somewhat diversified, just like IRL
for now yum bonus is a small food collecting game without any substantial connection to the game of OHOL
& in most cases not even feasible cause bare survival takes over

Spoonwood · 2019-03-02 15:21:15

pein wrote:

the problem is that people don't understand the basic math about yum:
if you are spending more time to find a food, than the yum bonus lasts, than its not worth it
"oh but the next level better"
still, you already wasted time for the first food, then the second is a waste too, not sure when it equals the time invested

I don't think it has to be all that high. But, I agree there's a point to what you say. Like trying to yum as an Eve off of just wild food probably isn't worth, or, more precisely, only has limited worth in certain situations (oh hey look... I was living off of wild berries and I just ran by a wild onion when I down more than 6 pips... yep... I'll eat it for yum now, but I wouldn't eat it if only down 3 pips). That said, I think if you have 7 of the 8 pie types available (and your settlement probably will have other foods by then), then I can see it as worth it. Wherever the exact line lies it comes as hard to pin down, because it will vary with clothing set, closeness to fire, and how much time comes as needed to find another food. It also probably varies with players using zoom vs. not using zoom, since players using zoom can find food more easily.

pein wrote:

and that's why i don't like early stew makers either
if you use the early branches for stew or plates, don't even dare to say you don't delay smithing
so if your really think about it, you just fuck up everyone's game for that hour for making a few stew, considering that most decent players care about technological advancement, food is just delays until you get smart people to do the tools/pen, etc.

Technological advancement won't matter without fertile females, which comes as affected by yum. Also, technological advancement with lots and lots of knives running around probably isn't good. It's probably more murder. Technological advancement also does NOT hasten a pen. The half-bell tower base pen requires both a shovel and a chisel, and destroys/weakens a lot of technology in the process (and it can really use an upgrade to full-bell tower bases as it's too easy to accidenlty use a shovel on one of those half-bell tower bases). The adobe oven base pen using a shovel on tule stump and reeds with clay for adobe comes as the fastest way to make a pen. Additionally, NO technology comes as required for a pen other than a sharp stone. The adobe for an adobe oven base design can get made from straw and clay. That also saves on iron for other uses also.

I disagree. Stew is better than technological advancement even absent any yum bonus. You and your family can starve. They can't eat iron or iron based tools.

pein wrote:

so 20 bushes can feed 5 people, babies get quite of a discount on first 3 min but if they die is kinda waste of work time
you can say, if only toddlers and old people eat it, and manage to go below 50% berry eating, than your camp is doing well

I don't like how you keep on referencing berry bushes, because I feel that the ratio of berries to other crops comes as too high in general.

pein wrote:

so the statement that yum saves you time, might be true, but alone yumming makes no advantage
and quite of a distraction

No. Not in all cases. Even if I player only ate and yummed while eating, which I don't recommend, that would still increase a female's fertility.

pein wrote:

the main issue with yum, is that people forget why do they yum, you eat to live not live to eat
and even f you don't cost others work or food, you arent really helping either

Not necessarily, no. If it's the last female and she doesn't yum, but makes say a diesel water pump, but has no children, the lineage dies. If a female instead yums, and does nothing else, and has at least one girl child, then she will outdo the technologically obsessed female in the respect that the lineage lives on. Of course that assumes that the lineage continuing comes as a good metric. If you just care about techonology for it's own sake, then the diesel water pump maker without any children does better than the woman who had a child.

pein wrote:

same goes for people who complain about cooking mutton raw, if you got dung, it means you are behind on compost

Geese are another use of dung. Behind on compost OR geese.

pein wrote:

now i seen people who just do everything to keep others alive
but it wont help, you got a timer of 5 min on carrot and a timer of 8 min on berry and on everything, so if you arent considerate about future, and others arent then you wont survive that period yum or not yum.
and if you can make a long yum chain, possibly you could do a small yum chain for multiple people, and that's better.

Nope, not necessarily. If a village has say 6 men and one fertile woman, then the yum for multiple people has less value than the yum for the fertile woman.

pein wrote:

also we need to support newbees who arent fast enough to see all food, and they need simple instructions on how to eat.

Especially if female and there exist very few fertile females around.

pein wrote:

not helping is the same as hurting others
as they need to calculate on 20 people where 15 doesn't do anything
so they get 4x times the work, and they will flip the table and everyone dies

Because fertile females weren't yumming enough?

pein wrote:

but people who know how to produce stuff and they don't do it, ruin others game

I mean, not if it's a smith who is a fertile female and won't yum, and there exist one or few fertile females. Technology won't matter if the lineage dies out, unless the place gets discovered by some other Eve and that counts.

pein wrote:

so far i havent seen people who are yumming and keep up the tempo with me and i know most of the fast clickers
and maybe i eat more times per life but sure as hell i do 4x amount of work than you running around to get a wild cockatoo egg to mix it with your granola bar xD

So what if you personally did more yourself? What happened to your lineage? Could you have made it so that your lineage was more likely to have more people in it?

Spoonwood · 2019-03-02 15:29:26

Greep wrote:

I take it you haven't actually tried the mushroom yet have you? XD

I have. It can make mosquitoes more visible. It can work out alright, if you have a task where you don't need to keep on finding stuff. It does come as a bit tricky though... and eating a mushroom at old age or early in life I wouldn't recommend to anyone. Still, no soil, water, kindling, or time from the player needed. So, it has high value in comparison to it's cost. Given a tier system, it probably floats around all tiers depending on players having the proper planning to manage their time when high.

Greep wrote:

You can't ignore that the earlier foods had lower yum, and must consider the average yum for every food in the list for each piece.

Yes. The average is the same regardless of the foods eaten, provided that the same foods get eaten.

BreezeKnight wrote:

that's what i was saying
collecting yum bonus is a game in itself, a side game to the OHOL game, not the main game

No. Even absent any increased efficiency of the yum bonus, it wouldn't be a side game. At least not according to Jason's design and intent of measuring quality of play. Note how there's a longest lineage list in terms of generations for the week. That's a significant metric, according to Jason (unless someone else made the script that puts that up all the time). Yum affects fertility, so it's a core mechanic for bigserver towns where people compete for babies, regardless of it's efficiency to a given individual.

DestinyCall · 2019-03-02 17:16:54

A lot of your points have already been addressed by previous posts, so I'm not going to repeat myself or the advice of other people. If you weren't listening the first time, I doubt it will make an impression the second time.

Spoonwood wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
If you are interested in yum, start with Tier 1 foods and work your way toward Tier 4 foods.
No. Bread requires a knife. Milk requires a bucket. So does buttered bread. Sliced turkey requires a knife. So do turkey broth and drumsticks. Sauerkraut requires a cabbage shredder. Pork tacos require a knife. Mango slices require a knife and a bucket. Notice a theme yet?
All of those foods require iron processed into steel and then made into a tool to make. There exist PLENTY of other foods that don't require iron. So, really, with the exception of mutton pie, all pie types can get cooked before iron processing. So can stew and plenty of other foods.
Thus, if you have an interest in yum, after forging a good amount of plates, bowls, and crock pots, cook those pies, stew, and make other foods that don't need iron based tools. That way your yum gets up earlier.

Yes, some of the best foods in the game require using a knife to process into edible food or bow/arrow to harvest. And milk needs a bucket which requires wood-making tools to produce. These tools will not be available in an Eve camp or early village, so these Tier 1 or 2 foods will need to be skipped until the necessary tools become available. However, that does not mean it is a good idea to skip over other available good options to make Tier 4 food, like berry pies, or that you should start eating basic cooking ingredients, like fresh corn or green beans. Even though these foods are "easy" to make, they are not good food options due to cost issues.

Ideally, you should work to advance your village towards being able to make better foods as quickly as possible to avoid starvation. Wild foods are limited and non-sustainable. Berries and carrots require a heavy cost in water and soil (and tool use for carrots). This is why it is so important to get a functioning bakery, followed by a sheep pen, in early villages. Not only does this allow you to start composing for soil, but it also helps reduce the labor/resource burden associated with using less efficient foods to feed your village.

I would also repeat the advice I have given in the past - do not make berry pies. They are a waste of food resources. When you make a berry rabbit pie or a berry carrot rabbit pie, you do not get back what you put into the pie. You are LOSING food by making this kind of pie. If your village is already on the brink of starvation, this is the last thing you want to be doing with your limited food stores.

If you feel that you MUST make variety pies for yum, focus on the meat and carrot pies. These pies provide a net gain to your village food supply. But do not mass-produce carrot pies or rabbit carrot pies - small scale production for the benefit of yum is fine, since one or two of these pies will cover your lifetime yum needs. Chances are quite good that no one else will gain any yum benefit from your efforts, since pies all look the same. Therefore, mass-producing all four decent pie varieties is generally a waste of time. And intentionally mass-producing berry pies is borderline griefing, in my opinion. It's like going around the village force-feeding pie to random people. You are just wasting food for no purpose and involving other people in your misbehavior.

Spoonwood wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
This is the most efficient and least wasteful way to yum.
No, it's not. The most glaring example is the mushroom. There is NO cost to the mushroom. No soil, water, or kindling needed for it. So, the pips come for free (once the mushroom appears... but it's not like the player has to stand in front of the soil pit for an hour). Mushrooms have infinite efficiency in comparison to the soil, water, and kindling cost. Cooked fish also only require kindling and some time, so I think they are off.

Heh ... if you want to eat hallucinogenic mushrooms, feel free. But I think mushrooms earn their place in Tier 4. Mushrooms might make it easier to see mosquitoes (if you can figure out what they look like), but they can make it much harder to see snakes and other wild animals. And pies. There is usually a significant period of time after eating a mushroom when you are functionally immobilized and unable to work or seek out food efficiently. In my opinion, these drawbacks outweigh the low production cost. I would not eat a mushroom if there was any other food available.

Cooked fish does not ONLY require kindling and time. Have you ever gone fishing? I have. In case you are wondering why so few villages eat fish, you must first construct a fishing pole. A fish pole requires a hook. To make the hook, you must plant a rosebush. To plant a rosebush, you must first stratify the seed in a snowbank. After you have your hook, you must harvest worms from soil pits, then go to the tundra and hang out beside an ice hole for years, freezing your butt off and hoping you don't get old boots. If you are lucky, you come back with a couple of fish. If you are unlucky, you come back with frostbite and a bunch of shoes that provide 0% insulation. Also, you are now dead of old age.

Fishing is a lifetime commitment to a single amazing bite of food. It will taste delicious because you spent a good fifteen or twenty minutes of your adult life on that fish, so it better taste freaking amazing. In other words ... not a good candidate for mass-production and very time-consuming to produce. Also, limited by the number of available worms/soil pits in your area. In One Hour One Life, time is the most precious commodity.

Spoonwood wrote:

Alright, the non iron based foods list goes, 7 of the pies, popcorn, berry, berry in a bowl (10), green beans, three sister's stew (12), cooked fish, bean burritos (14), domestic carrot, wild carrot, onion, burdock (18), banana, cactus fruit, omelette (21), cooked rabbit, and shucked ear of corn (23). So, if I counted correctly, there's more than a plus twenty yum chain possible without any foods which need iron to make. Take out the wild foods, and it's still 18 foods. I left out the mushroom also.

Here .. let me fix that for you ...

rabbit pie, stew, popcorn, gooseberry, gooseberry in bowl, cactus fruit, carrot pie, rabbit carrot pie, omelette, bean burrito, cooked rabbit, cooked goose, carrot, burdock, wild onion, wild carrot, banana, green beans, bean taco, and mushroom. That gets you all the way to twenty yum without requiring iron tools and without involving any Tier 4 foods (except mushroom).

There's no shame in letting your yum chain break, if there are no more good foods to eat. Intentionally consuming fresh corn in a pre-iron village is just bad eating. The rest of village needed that corn to survive. You shouldn't feel proud for using it to extend your chain by a single point when it could have been processed into a better food to feed multiple people.

This is my new favorite Spoonerism ...

Spoonwood wrote:

Geese are another use of dung. Behind on compost OR geese.

Gotta keep up on our geese production or the neighboring villages will mock us for falling behind!

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-03-02 17:21:15)

Booklat1 · 2019-03-02 19:47:30

spoonwood plays singleplayer and talks like its multi, of course they dont understand why food not eaten is a waste. of course they have a completely alien experience.

Still using "one player left" to justify yumming in big servers for food value, completely ignoring that there's NO WAY a single person can eat 6 green beans at 17 in one life thus resulting in wasteful bites. Something spoon even mentioned:

Spoonwood wrote:

Booklat1 wrote:
dpnt yum like this, yumming with raw foods has been proven wasteful many times.
carrots, the best raw food, are only worth it at 17 yum, costs considered. use meat pies, milk, stew and berries tp yum. avoid carrots, beans and corn at all costs.
This is very doubtful. Remember, if you have +10 yum, you can't eat until the yum goes down first.

You refuted nothing, fertility is for big servers in which yumming badly is proven to be a waste since it takes many people at high yums for it to not be wasteful. Every single one of spoons arguments were either answered before or only apply to sp.

What is better, an entire village at mid yum or one clown at 20? I've also proved corn plants can be used for 4 types of yum without ever eating it raw. what is better for yum, the two milks, a popcorn and one left for stew or 4 raw corns?

all the players I mentioned said what I said, Yum is good, not with bad foods, I can quote them if Spoon keeps ignoring half their statements (like twisted saying raw is good at high yum only). The reasons we agree are 3

bad foods need very high yums
all bites eaten in different chains/people
for it to MATCH better foods

late game towns in big server are flooded with knives and buckets are easy AF to make and useful to have around.

to end this;
bonus of 21 food chain: 20 + 19 +... 1= 210
milk + skin: 140 + 80 = 220 + 10 people at +1 yum.

bad foods are bad, even for yum. make good foods so EVERYONE can easily build up.

Last edited by Booklat1 (2019-03-02 19:53:45)

Booklat1 · 2019-03-02 20:03:31

DestinyCall wrote:

This is my new favorite Spoonerism ...
Spoonwood wrote:
Geese are another use of dung. Behind on compost OR geese.

Gotta keep up on our geese production or the neighboring villages will mock us for falling behind!

I like spoons guide for efficient tool usage, its very meta

Spoonwood wrote:

Make popcorn and green beans. Potatoes also work well for yum, though you'll want to consider the cost of shovel uses when thinking about potatoes. Sauerkraut makes for another good source of yum.

Spoonwood wrote:

Pretty sure that if iron was an issue, you're insisting on steel hoes, and also anticipating that iron goes to other things. Neither needs to hold. Sure, your examples are contrived. But hey, here's another bad use of iron. Shoveling compost instead of digging up a soil pit or running soil from soil pits.

Spoonwood wrote:

aren't people still making diesel engines. Because if you're doing that, and have a charcoal pump, there is no need to get concerned with iron. Just turn all that iron into steel hoes. Also, iron isn't a hangup for tilling. Round stones are abundant. Someone who grows 4 milkweed can make a sustaining settlement via stone hoes. Or someone could bring home a bunch of skewers from the wild.

their math is great too

Booklat1 wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
No, you can't achieve the same result by keeping a pie in your backpack once you have +10 yum. (+ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) is well more than any pie.
thats 56 and berry carrot rabbit pie gives total 76.
You'll keep saying bullshit if you never bother to check

DestinyCall · 2019-03-02 20:33:05

My personal recommendation for anyone who is interested in helping a multiplayer village with yum is very similar to what pein suggested above - instead of making a dedicated YUM station with rare yum-only foods, build a FOOD station (or several food stations) in a high traffic area.

Supply this spot with stew, pies, milk, bread, popcorn, and berry bowls. Maybe add a turkey, if you can find one. I also recommend defining the space with wood flooring - a simple 3x3 square is perfect. Maybe start a large fire in the middle to encourage the nursing mothers to move out of the bakery. The baker makes the pies and bread ... you move it to the station. The stew maker produces crockpots and you distribute them around town. Harvest corn and let it dry for popcorn. You plant more wheat, corn, and beans, as needed and keep an eye on the compost levels. When all the stations are fully stocked, you go hunting for a cow and bring milk to the village. Everyone eats. The village thrives and grows larger.

In a decent-sized town, food distribution becomes a valuable profession. And by stocking a diversity of foods, you will be able to fully utilize farm production and keep people informed if there is an interuption in the supply chain - like if the sheep pen has been griefed or the last shovel just broke or the wells are dry. You can help the baker by planting wheat and help the shepherd by planting carrots. You can teach many food skills to children and help more people learn how to produce (and drink) cow milk.

You could easily spend your whole life just working to keep a couple of food stations fully stocked with Teir 1 food staples and it would provide more benefit than eating bad foods and trying to make as many low value, hard-to-make foods as you can manage to boost your personal yum chain by a few extra points.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-03-02 23:13:45)

Spoonwood · 2019-03-03 05:47:15

DestinyCall wrote:

Yes, some of the best foods in the game require using a knife to process into edible food or bow/arrow to harvest. And milk needs a bucket which requires wood-making tools to produce. These tools will not be available in an Eve camp or early village, so these Tier 1 or 2 foods will need to be skipped until the necessary tools become available. However, that does not mean it is a good idea to skip over other available good options to make Tier 4 food, like berry pies, or that you should start eating basic cooking ingredients, like fresh corn or green beans. Even though these foods are "easy" to make, they are not good food options due to cost issues.

No cooked foods cost too much. Cooking always increases the total number of pips available.

DestinyCall wrote:

Ideally, you should work to advance your village towards being able to make better foods as quickly as possible to avoid starvation.

That would entail prioritizing cooking 7 of the 8 pies over iron processing. No one can eat iron tools. Villages can eat pies. Also, starvation is NOT the only issue. Starvation only matters because it kills you or your relatives. Not enough fertile girls can also make it so your relatives don't reproduce.

DestinyCall wrote:

Berries and carrots require a heavy cost in water and soil (and tool use for carrots).

That is not accurate. The cost of berries in terms of water and soil is by no means constant, since there is no knowing where the berries came from. Wild berries don't cost water and soil. Domestic berry bushes do.

DestinyCall wrote:

I would also repeat the advice I have given in the past - do not make berry pies.

Then you have advised holding the yum potential of your family back. That means that a family trying to maximize it's yum can outdo yours in terms of it's fertility and your family has a lower probability of having enough fertile girls to live on. It also implies that anyone seeking to yum will be more likely to give up on your family.

DestinyCall wrote:

They are a waste of food resources. When you make a berry rabbit pie or a berry carrot rabbit pie, you do not get back what you put into the pie. You are LOSING food by making this kind of pie.

This is sheer nonsense. A bowl of berries is 30 pips. A berry pie is 48 pips. A bowl of berries and a cooked rabbit is 40 pips. A berry rabbit pie is 72 pips. A bowl of berries, a carrot, and a cooked rabbit is 47 pips. A berry carrot rabbit pie is 80 pips.

DestinyCall wrote:

If you feel that you MUST make variety pies for yum, focus on the meat and carrot pies.

That's only 4 or 5 pie types. All of the pies is 8 pie types. Seriously, if you feel that you should always eat the most efficient foods, then only eat wild berries (and mushrooms). No soil, no water, no kindling needed for those.

DestinyCall wrote:

These pies provide a net gain to your village food supply.

Food supply is irrelevant without enough fertile girls. Also, food supply is misleading, because it's pip amount + yum that matters, not raw pips absent yum.

DestinyCall wrote:

But do not mass-produce carrot pies or rabbit carrot pies - small scale production for the benefit of yum is fine, since one or two of these pies will cover your lifetime yum needs.

This is like saying that only you should yum, and the rest of your family can have the scraps left for dogs. No. Cook them in mass scale and tell other players to eat a variety of foods.

DestinyCall wrote:

Chances are quite good that no one else will gain any yum benefit from your efforts, since pies all look the same. Therefore, mass-producing all four decent pie varieties is generally a waste of time. And intentionally mass-producing berry pies is borderline griefing, in my opinion. It's like going around the village force-feeding pie to random people. You are just wasting food for no purpose and involving other people in your misbehavior.

The level of unearned arrogance here is astounding. Increasing the yum of a village is bordeline griefing? Please.

All pie types should get produced, mass produced, and then organized well so that players can more easily recognize them. Doesn't paper exist in the game where notes could get left next to pies or next to boxes?

DestinyCall wrote:

Cooked fish does not ONLY require kindling and time. Have you ever gone fishing? I have. In case you are wondering why so few villages eat fish, you must first construct a fishing pole. A fish pole requires a hook. To make the hook, you must plant a rosebush. To plant a rosebush, you must first stratify the seed in a snowbank. After you have your hook, you must harvest worms from soil pits, then go to the tundra and hang out beside an ice hole for years, freezing your butt off and hoping you don't get old boots. If you are lucky, you come back with a couple of fish. If you are unlucky, you come back with frostbite and a bunch of shoes that provide 0% insulation. Also, you are now dead of old age.
Fishing is a lifetime commitment to a single amazing bite of food. It will taste delicious because you spent a good fifteen or twenty minutes of your adult life on that fish, so it better taste freaking amazing. In other words ... not a good candidate for mass-production and very time-consuming to produce. Also, limited by the number of available worms/soil pits in your area. In One Hour One Life, time is the most precious commodity.

There is no frostbite in the game. Still, cooked fish doesn't require iron.

Also, no time isn't the most precious commodity. Not for your family. The family having descendants is the most precious commodity. And that leads back to yum.

DestinyCall wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
Alright, the non iron based foods list goes, 7 of the pies, popcorn, berry, berry in a bowl (10), green beans, three sister's stew (12), cooked fish, bean burritos (14), domestic carrot, wild carrot, onion, burdock (18), banana, cactus fruit, omelette (21), cooked rabbit, and shucked ear of corn (23). So, if I counted correctly, there's more than a plus twenty yum chain possible without any foods which need iron to make. Take out the wild foods, and it's still 18 foods. I left out the mushroom also.
Here .. let me fix that for you ...
rabbit pie, stew, popcorn, gooseberry, gooseberry in bowl, cactus fruit, carrot pie, rabbit carrot pie, omelette, bean burrito, cooked rabbit, cooked goose, carrot, burdock, wild onion, wild carrot, banana, green beans, bean taco, and mushroom. That gets you all the way to twenty yum without requiring iron tools and without involving any Tier 4 foods (except mushroom).

You didn't fix it. Yes, I left off cooked goose, bean burritos, and bean tacos. Except cooked goose is ambiguous. It CAN require iron if the geese are domestic, but doesn't if the geese are wild. But you also didn't improve the list overall since you left out berry pie, berry carrot pie, berry carrot rabbit pie, and berry rabbit pie.

DestinyCall wrote:

There's no shame in letting your yum chain break, if there are no more good foods to eat.

All foods are good foods to eat if it keeps your yum going, except maybe the mushroom. They all yield pips without a downside. You want to insist that berry pie is somehow not good. But, let's say you have +14 yum already and already ate all of the meaty pies and no other pie types. Is rabbit pie good then? No, it breaks your yum chain. What is good then? Berry pie. And that's why as many pie types should get made in mass, and people get taught to eat a variety of foods.

DestinyCall wrote:

Intentionally consuming fresh corn in a pre-iron village is just bad eating.

Nope, probably not. Yum is probably low then. If starvation really does come as an issue also, then eating it makes for a good choice.

DestinyCall wrote:

The rest of village needed that corn to survive.

Not likely at all. It's not like wild foods don't exist.

DestinyCall wrote:

You shouldn't feel proud for using it to extend your chain by a single point when it could have been processed into a better food to feed multiple people.

You should not feel proud for refusing to cook as many of the pie types as you can. Nor should you feel proud for believing that "bad foods" exist, when they do not (with the SOLE exception as maybe mushrooms... MAYBE). Nor should you feel proud for refusing to increase the yum potential of your village. You simply don't increase fertility that way.

DestinyCall wrote:

Gotta keep up on our geese production or the neighboring villages will mock us for falling behind!

Nope. They could have more fertile women than your village though, because they had omelettes when your village didn't. They won't mock you though. They will just live and you won't know why your lineage died out.

Spoonwood · 2019-03-03 06:18:39

Booklat1 wrote:

spoonwood plays singleplayer and talks like its multi, of course they dont understand why food not eaten is a waste. of course they have a completely alien experience.

Still using "one player left" to justify yumming in big servers for food value, completely ignoring that there's NO WAY a single person can eat 6 green beans at 17 in one life thus resulting in wasteful bites.

Sure that can happen. But that person probably wants to smith and is looking for an empty clay bowl. Even if not, that's not the responsibility of the person who made the green beans. As another example, it's not hard to make a bunch of fires. But, the fault does not lie in the person who made the axe, stone hatchet, or kindling if someone lights a few dozen fires in a life. The firemaker is responsible as would be the person eating a bunch of green beans at once, and not the person who made the green beans (assuming the person who made them isn't the same person who ate them).

Booklat1 wrote:

You refuted nothing, fertility is for big servers in which yumming badly is proven to be a waste since it takes many people at high yums for it to not be wasteful.

You can keep on believing that it's proven, when there exists a constantly changing player base. When yum affects fertility, a point at which no point you even tried to address. You can say that all you like. Your saying so won't make it true in the slightest.

Booklat wrote:

What is better, an entire village at mid yum or one clown at 20?

There's no way to know. But first, someone getting to 20 yum is no clown (and by 20 yum I mean 20 meals... not eating green beans down 8 pips for 10 yum and then eating pocorn next for 11 more yum... none of that combo yum stuff). Now, if the village has a bunch of women, then spreading out the yum sounds like the right call. But if the village only has one fertile female and many men, then the yum going to the fertile female makes the most sense. And then also overfilling the pip (e. g. eating an egg when down one pip even) may well be the best thing to do.

Booklat wrote:

I've also proved corn plants can be used for 4 types of yum without ever eating it raw. what is better for yum, the two milks, a popcorn and one left for stew or 4 raw corns?

Well, what lies around? Thinking about two milks doesn't make sense until you have buckets and cows. Raw corns win out over foods than don't exist yet.

Booklat wrote:

all the players I mentioned said what I said, Yum is good, not with bad foods, I can quote them if Spoon keeps ignoring half their statements (like twisted saying raw is good at high yum only). The reasons we agree are 3
bad foods need very high yums
all bites eaten in different chains/people
for it to MATCH better foods

There are no bad foods. Also, so what if they said what you claim they did? Who else besides me has even said a serious word about fertility? Who else besides me has taken getting to more than 20 yum seriously (alright... maybe Twisted did)?

Booklat wrote:

to end this;
bonus of 21 food chain: 20 + 19 +... 1= 210
milk + skin: 140 + 80 = 220 + 10 people at +1 yum.

Nothing about the fertility bonus in there. I've brought that up and you have repeatedly completely ignored it Booklat. Also, some of that whole milk will probably overfill the pip bar. Probably won't happen as much with someone with a high yum chain. Furthermore, your calculations are simply dishonest. You calculated the pips for milk. You didn't calculate the pips needed to get 20 yum. I'll leave out the mushroom. (+ 3 4 5 5 6 6 6 6 7 7 8 8 9 9 9 10 10 10 12 12) = 145. (+ 145 210) = 355. The yum chain produces 355 bars worth of time. Milk produces more than a hundred bars less worth of time for the same number of meals. That's also discounting the fertility potential gain.

Booklat wrote:

bad foods are bad, even for yum. make good foods so EVERYONE can easily build up.

Quit telling yourself that bad foods exist (other than maybe mushrooms). Increase the yum around for you and your family. Give up the pretense that ignoring yum and fertility makes for a thoroughgoing way of looking at things.

Also, you have plenty of incentive to lie and maintain a facade of truth about all of this. After all, since families stand in competition for fertile females, and you can get people to ignore that in favor of classifying foods as "bad" and talking about "efficiency" of foods absent any game context, you can more easily yum yourself. That's probably why you keep responding to me also, and keep on insisting I'm wrong. Because that way my points become blurred and you can more likely ensure that you get more children by yumming more and encouraging others to yum less... and/or "break their yum chain", because that is "efficient" (oops... fertility dropped! Don't make that public, because then I'll have to do more to have more children!).

You are right about one thing though. I'm not playing on the bigserver at the moment. But also, because of that, I don't have an incentive to lie, since I don't compete in any way with other families. Players on the bigserver do have an incentive to lie or mislead about all of this though, since families do compete for children.

Booklat1 · 2019-03-03 06:40:11

Fertility is the only reasonable argument but dont overuse it, heat pays as much a factor as yum and you'll freeze to death without axe, so skipping iron is pathetic. Eves or eve kids need an axe (unless kindling is extremely abundant)

Fertility is btw, not the only factor to demographics. Famines still occur a lot pre-sheep which is why you need them for stability, though its not bad at all to make some pies now assuming you use wild wheat. But you cant have populations grow without tech progression, thats would be a Malthusian hell. Sheep and pump are the last techs we absolutely need for a village to last long term in multiplayer, but only sheep needs rushing.

This discussion makes more sense than math negationism. Do we all understand that resource-wise raw foods are very unlikely to pay off?

Booklat1 · 2019-03-03 07:00:22

spoon, its obnoxious that you tell me to increase others yum when im telling you all along that milk adds yum for much more people than beans and corn.

Again, math evidence saying resource-wise it doesnt pay off. Fertily is one argument for yum, not for bad yum.

Milk has more bites than corn, giving more people yum, so does popcorn, skim milk and stew.
Also, its absurd that you ask me to talk about fertility and completely denies betame's beautiful cost analysis (and the conclusions that result from it)

im glad you suggested i might be lying to buff my lines though, it makes much clearer how unrealistic you are. if suggesting potatoes are good didnt already.

DestinyCall · 2019-03-03 08:58:03

Spoonwood wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
They are a waste of food resources. When you make a berry rabbit pie or a berry carrot rabbit pie, you do not get back what you put into the pie. You are LOSING food by making this kind of pie.
This is sheer nonsense. A bowl of berries is 30 pips. A berry pie is 48 pips. A bowl of berries and a cooked rabbit is 40 pips. A berry rabbit pie is 72 pips. A bowl of berries, a carrot, and a cooked rabbit is 47 pips. A berry carrot rabbit pie is 80 pips.

It gets really annoying when I have to keep repeating myself. You didn't count the cost of using wheat or the value of a meat-only pie. Compared with the available alternatives, berry pies are wasteful. There is no getting around this. It is plain to see when you look at the numbers.

The difference between a bowl of berries and a berry pie is only 18 pips. But to make a berry pie, you must also use 1/4 of a bowl of dough. If you made bread with that bowl of dough instead of pies, it would provide 64 pips. A quarter of 64 is 16 pips. That means that you only gain 2 pips per pie when you make berry pies, instead of eating the raw ingredients separately. That is really crappy. By comparison, a cooked rabbit is 10 pips and a rabbit pie has 56 pips. The difference between them is 46 pips. So when you subtract the cost of wheat, you still get a net gain of 30 pips from each rabbit pie that you produce. Using a whole bowl of berries as a pie filling is very costly. It would be better to make a different kind of pie using that wheat and leave the berries on the bush to be eaten raw or used for composting. Doing so would allow you to feed more people with the same number of cooking ingredients OR produce more dirt to grow vital crops, like wheat, corn, squash, carrots, milkweed or even gooseberry bushes.

This high cost is present in all berry pies, but it gets even worse when you look at berry rabbit pie and berry carrot rabbit pie. This is because the rabbit pie is already so good and the berry pies are not good enough to make up for the high-cost berry filling. When you ADD berries to the pie, you do not get back the full value of the berries you just put in. A berry rabbit pie is worth 72 pips. After you subtract the food value of a rabbit pie, you get left with only 16 pips. Then when you subtract the food value of a bowl of berries you are left with -14 pips. So you just LOST that many food pips by choosing to make a berry rabbit pie instead of a plain rabbit pie and keeping the bowl of berries separate. Put another way, a rabbit pie and bowl of berries is worth 86 pips, but a berry rabbit pie is only worth 72 pips. The difference between them is the amount of food you LOSE when you decide to make the berry rabbit pie instead of just making a rabbit pie. Combining these foods together is a BAD idea, since you end up with less food than if you do not combine them together. The berry carrot rabbit pie is an even WORSE pie. You lose the value of the half the bowl of berries and pretty much the entire carrot. You actually lose even more than the base math suggests, because even though the berry carrot rabbit pie has a pip value of 20 per bite, you can only really gain 19 pips max from any food. It isn't possible to eat when your food bar is empty, so a 20 pip food really gives you 19 or less pips. Usually less, since most people don't wait until the last second to eat. This means that the berry carrot rabbit pie (20 pip/bite) and the berry rabbit pie (18 pip/bite) have effectively the same food value in practice. But the three-ingredient pie costs significantly more to produce and, therefore, involves even higher waste. This does not even get into the dirt/water/iron/labor costs of producing extra berries and carrots for pies.

Now imagine that you decide to mass-produce a bunch of berry pies to help feed a hungry village. Do you see the problem yet?

You might think that you are helping the hunger problem, but you are actually burning through limited food resources much faster than you should be. A very small number of these pies could be produced for yummers in a stable village without causing any significant harm. But large-scale production of berry pies is irresponsible. It should not be encouraged, yum or no yum. Rabbit and mutton pies are significantly better than berry-containing pies. Rabbit carrot pies are quite tasty and carrot pies are a net food gain, but carrots have important non-culinary uses which take priority over vanity foods. Most villages are perpetually low on carrots, so diverting carrots into pie-production unnecessarily is not a great idea. Again, small scale production isn't a big deal - if you want to produce a small run of pies to feed your yum habit, it probably won't kill anyone (unless the carrot farmer gets stabby when he catches you taking his carrots to the bakery).

If you want to set-up a mega bakery with every kind of pie in individually labeled boxes in a multiplayer village ... good luck. I've seen it done once or twice in very well-established cities that have a huge over-abundance of food compared with the living player base. It takes a lot of work and organization to keep everything straight since the different pie types all look identical and the time to gather berry and carrot fillings increases the processing time for the pies. I worked on establishing pie boxes on One City server's yum spot and it was a fun project. It took several lifetimes to finish making all the boxes, write the labels, and finish filling them with the right pies. And that was under near perfect conditions, since One City Server has an abundance of resources, a well-stocked bakery area next to the Yum Spot, and fixed Eve-spawn locations. In the vast majority of small to medium sized settlements, it will not work. You won't have time to finish the project in one lifetime and other people are unlikely to maintain all the pie varieties after you die, even if you manage to establish the basic framework. Plus, it is hard enough to make sufficient meat pies and stew to keep the population fed in a small town. If you start diverting carrots and berries into the pies too, you won't be doing the place any favors. It puts even greater strain on the food supply AND risks compromising the compost cycle. This is a recipe for town collapse.

Long story short, you can really only get away with producing variety pies in a town that has already solved its food problems. On the plus side, the kind of town that can support the creation of a mega bakery tends to be a very old, established town with a relatively low player population. Hence the overabundance of food. This is the kind of town that is at highest risk of dying out due to under-population, so aiming for higher yum to boost fertility has merit. In a small town with a high population, food crisis and starvation due to over-population is a much more significant threat than lack of reproductive females. Therefore, in most smaller villages, it makes more sense to focus on efficient food production (meat pies) over yum-chaining for fertility. In fact, the fertility boost provided by yum can work against you if the village is already drowning in too many babies. Higher fertility is great when you need more girls, but it can be kind of a drag if your village is in "Just let your babies starve" mode due to widespread famine.

pein · 2019-03-03 19:54:18

without quotes cause im tired
spoonwood:

i don't care if half of the family starves, they don't deserve to be alive in the first place
who even dies on a famine?
newbies who don't know other food than yum
people who break under stress
until is not everyone, its even beneficial
sometimes initiative and risk taking is all you need to advance to a stable level especially if the camp lacks some of the natural materials

once i played with yahg and made camp on a top of a fricking bearcave
and we made it work, and would have worked if people are decent

you are on timer, you need to find a spot , you need to make bowls or pouch
you need to find skewers and make farm before food runs out
you need to make axe before branches run out
and you need to make shovel before soil and water runs out first time
then you need carts to move more stuff
but you need a pen before soil runs out definiteievely

doing other things than this is just dumb. making stew? delays axe, making oven? no need until you got sheep, useless luxury. rabbit pies? waste of time with wild wheat and toddlers eat it anyway

if you want shitcamps, go to shitcamps spoonwood
is one thing to get more babies, its other to keep them

so far my experience is that if you give a shape to a camp at gen3 is much better than waiting gen 9 or later
people are confused where to make pen, where to make rooms, who gets the sheep, etc.
if you don't have the tools before the poppulation boom, you are kinda doomed most cases
also if the map isn't perfect you need some tools faster
wild food not so good later
branches replaceable
wild soil too

the history of yum: jason track what food we eat weekly, especially after the farm update he had some buffs and nerfs (mostly nerfs) to food types
then he realized most of food types arent really made
and he wanted to nerf berries, or berry munching
most of us advised to don't puish food value as it only punishes farmers, and those are not eaters
like it or not, berries are staple since strart, popcorn was staple at introduction as it was worth making it
when jason nerfed it, it became to tedious to make even compared to carrots is bad
so that's your baseline
and you need it for sheep, need it for newbees and maybe elders who worked their ass off for 50 years so they want to reach 60
i came up with the example of stronghold crusader, where you get more benefit of having multiple food sources, and you can get more taxes by having low consumption, higher variety, than producing one ore two types and feeding them to full
but also you got top cap there on taxes, on food types and the food need to be kept up so you either produce it or buy it, and due to space and worker issues you can only do it effectively at half ratios buying 2-3 and producing one or max two on mass scale
its not really jasons vision, it was an attempt to sway people to do variety, and didn't really worked

instead perverted some people into maximizing yum and they live to eat instead of eating to live
twisted does it well but its annoying to see people to stress so much about food, he stops his plans too often to go around eating
he gets dangerously low a lot of times, and still has to stop his yum chain
and this is not a fun way to play or requirement for everyone
im happy if people link 4-5 foods together what we can produce mass scale

and you are wrong about yum, its not so important, i skipped a lot of lives and i seen how often i get to same camp and not to the other, its not about yum, is just females. if there is 10 females on server and 10 people decide to play same time (which happens often cause "oh its 9 a clock, i can play until 10) then people get to different families, regardless of yum you get babies
you cant control if they are female, you cant control if they are good players
you cant gear them all, and you cant keep all of them alive, interested, motivated

that comes from the work, making good looking, functional things
so lot of us wont stay at your camp if you got stew, but will stay cause you got tools and pen
its more fun havign resources at your birth than selfish fuckers doing some green beans and one goose here and there

your choice of variety wont work on public server, my choice of overproducing stuff will in most cases.
its just a bourgeois attitude to convince yourself that you are better than others, while i strongly believe than apm matters more for determining good players.
it doesn't matter if you are not hungry for few more seconds, it matters what you get done between your meals

i don't say yum is not good, i say private yum is bad for everyone else.

and o be fair, fertility wasn't part of the yum plan, it just came later to further differentiate females, and you can have 50 yum if no one is playing that time or its an update
people stay in a camp and want to come back for nice structures, optimised setups, not because grandma had 30 yum

also you get too many females they shouldn't yum at all
you can organize 12-15 people with one pen one oven, one berry farm
if you want more , you need outpost

some of you plays this game like its sims
i play like its Age of empires/Stronghold/ Tropico
you got to plan for the population, you don't build houses if you don't need people, and you don't keep people if you don't need them

variety is a thing to worry about after quantity
you got 300 food, people arent skilled enough to see some, they don't move out of a range, they stress or they are careless
its not a matter of havign stuff, its also a matter of having it spread out, organized and explained
i see when people will die and i cant do much
i could, but it wouldn't give incentive to them to work and i aint gonna feed disgraceful people all their life
i could make one job a life, but that's not fun for me

also msot of you is like "oh a cow would be so good " while doing generi things each life and just planning and dreaming then die
if i see an ice whole closeby (especially before update you had ice holes near desert and that canceled the cold) i make sauerkraut
if you got 5 ponds you don't make eggs
if you got wild wheat you don't plant wheat
if yo ugot a huge green biome you don't plant milkweed
lot of this things coem from generic thinking and people not willing to look around and scavenge

other things that don't have a straightforward name or bonus but matter more than yum:
organization, having boards around berry so they wont expand it - or just explaining to them
resources and needed jobs, people are more motivated when they can use some resources
nice things, eye candy and buildings are good for the ambience
bigger plans and goals
reward and punish people based on their behavior

lot of stuff you do has more impact on the city than yum does
and to be fair, making full clothing and munching on pies are much simpler and effective than yumming
and if yo udont have pies then you work on pen, tools and get pies, simple as that

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